Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats

Surf City Catamarans inc. is pleased to announce, in conjunction with Ashby Sails, Gel-Tek and Aicher Egnar, the West Coast release of the Australian built 2007 Flyer Mark 2.

The new “A” Class Catamaran was designed in Germany by Peter and Aicher Egnar and is manufactured in Australia by Todd Pickering of Gel-Tek Quality Composite.

We have 4 coming over on a container now, which will be here June 1st. In this container we have 1 boat that is not spoken for. This may be your only chance to get one of these boats for summer sailing here in North America. Please contact me ASAP if you have any interest. For more details go to my website:

http://www.surfcitycatamarans.com/GeltekFlyer2.html

Call anytime with questions. Jeremy (831)359-5918

No doubt Ashby makes it look like a dream ride and top notch performer, but $26,000! Any deal with the boats in this shipment?

26000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the love

I'm liking my Blade better by the minute!!!

I know carbon is getting more expensive, but 26k for a beachcat? that is like half of what a brand new Corsair Sprint 750 costs!

Prices are set by factory, I have no control. 3 inquiries so far this morning, so they're obviously sought after. First deposit takes it. Next production run will start soon, so I'll fill another container and do the same thing. If you're interested in the next run (or this one) let me know.

Guys, check the date!
Its sooo obvious.

That price is about the running price for a new A by the time you add mast and sail.

I hate April Fool jokes. Did anyone save the one about the guy who was trailer sailiing and it took off down the road? It was a gem, had me going a long time!

Hey everyone,
I don't think this is a April Fool's joke. First of all Jeremy put this up 3/31. Second, I don't think anyone would go to the trouble of making a bogus website just for an April fool's joke. Jeremy is only 25 miles from me, so I can drive over the hill and see for myself.

D. Ho
TheMightyHobie18 1067

How is the A class so popular?????????????

This is not an April Fools joke. Geeez guys!

The A cat guys I talk to say they like the simplicity of only having to rig one sail, no last minute -crew bailed on you- issues, light weight on shore and last but not least, the very high performance of the boats.

The good part is that it will free up some much needed used boats. Ed

Folks,

Several items are driving the costs of this boat (and trust me, we in the A-Class are not happy about it either). Carbon prices have skyrocketed, literally doubled in price. One year ago, you could purchase a replacement mast for around $2,600, now it is around $4K. There is also more labor to building the Gel Tek because the beams are glued and they simply do an outstanding job. The Gel Tek is an excellent product.

Glenn Ashby makes little profit on these boats, keep in mind that most of the builders of high performance beach cats ARE NOT getting rich. They are trying to deliver a quality product to the sailing community at the best price they can.

I admire folks like Glen, Greg Goodall, Jim Boyer, Eigner, Bimare, Matt MacDonald (Vectorworks), Melvin-Morelli, and others who put their livelihoods on the line trying to bring high performance boats to the market.

Quit whining, no one is going to force you to buy one.

Bob Hodges

Points well taken! I'm likin' my Blade better by the minute! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I ain't whining, just surprised that the market is there actually... but I have no doubt they are impressive boats to sail.

I remember being called a moron and a fool for saying (predicting) exactly this thing a year ago. People like Jake and others engaged their "ignore" forum service to not hear any more such obviously moronic comments from me.

I guess the mainstream is now catching on and these statements have now passed from the moronic category to the "common wisdom" bracket.

Funny really.

Wouter

I can vouch for the price of carbon - The prices are really getting ridiculous IF you can even get it. Hopefully the manufacturing industry will catch up with the aerospace demand in the next several years and we'll see prices come down lower than ever. We have a large carbon fiber manufacturing facility near us...I need to see if they have some blemish items or odds and ends available for cheap!

I'll take a 45ft autoclave if they're throwing one out. That way I can make my own VX-40. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I'll check and get back with you...although I'm pretty sure they just make the fabric there. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if the below would be applicable to 2007 prices?

>December 17, 2002
EU Imposes $83M in Fines for Price-Fixing


BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - The European Commission on Tuesday fined 11 companies $83 million in two separate price-fixing scandals involving graphite and spices.

In the graphite cartel, eight companies were assessed a total of 60.6 million euro ($62.4 million)for violating EU competition rules between 1993 and 1998.

The Commission said that a two-year investigation found that the companies held regular meetings to divvy up the market and keep prices at inflated levels. Specialty graphites are used in everything from engineering to electronics.

Germany's SGL Carbon AG received the highest fine of 27.75 million euro ($28.57 million), while Japan's Toyo Tanso must pay 10.79 million euro ($11.11 million).

Other fines levied include 6.97 million euro ($7.18 million) for France's Carbon Lorraine SA, 6.97 million euro ($7.18 million) for Japan's Tokai Carbon Co., and 3.58 million euro ($3.69 million) for Ibiden Co. and Nippon Steel Chemical Co. also of Japan. Another two Japanese firms, Itech and Intech Inc. were fined 980,000 euro ($1 million).

SGL's fine was the highest ``because it was the ringleader,'' the Commission said, while the other companies got reductions in exchange for their cooperation in the probe. U.S.-based GraphTech International Ltd. was given immunity ``because it revealed the cartel,'' the Commission said.
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Obviously because it doesn't weigh #400 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tiger Mike

How is the A class so popular?????????????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously because it doesn't weigh #400

It's true. Since I can launch and retrieve by myself I'm getting a lot of boat time. If I have 3 hours to spare on a weekday afternoon I can toss the boat in and have 2 hours of sailing. Do this twice a week and it's priceless. Still, $25k? Please don't think that all A Catters are this rich. Ed

When I was thinking about getting an A cat last year, one of the guys mentioned the possibility of a 200lb. class. The idea was to keep cost down and to keep the classes "home builder" roots.

Is that possibility still alive?

No, that will not happen ever. The class has proven that the boat can be built at the 165 lb weight with durable and strong platforms. If anything, as technology gets better, you might see the next generation consistently weigh about 5 kilos (~10 lbs) less as many of the new boats are already sailing with 4-6 lbs of corrector weights.

While the price of the Gel Tek is very expensive, US sailors seem to forget the excellent product that Matt McDonald is producing with the Vectorworks/Bim XJ. I recently delivered one for Charlie Ogeltree to sail this year. I let Don Brennan at DIVERSIFIED MARINE in Mobile take a look at it. Don is now the US SAILING team boatwright. He was extremely impressed with the boat and the finish. Matt is selling new boats with a sailaway price of less than $20K and has let some lightly used demos go for less than $17K. While still expensive, you have to look at what you think your usage versus expense ratio will be. A lot of us A-Catters justify paying the $$$ because it is so easy to get time on the water (lightweight, simple, one sailor) and there is no boat that will bring a grin to your face like an A-Class.

Bob Hodges

All good points. A slightly different perspective, $17k is the price of a modest new car. $26k is the price of a little fancier car. If money is an issue drive an older car. I like my '97 Tacoma just fine.

I DO NOT justify or rationalize sailing. It just IS !! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pete,
There are 2 things to consider here. First, anyone capable of home building an A cat, can build one at min weight now if they do it right. Cal Fuller was building Plywood A’s with aluminum mast, beams crossbars etc at 200 lbs 25 years ago. Many of these are still sailing. I think it would be possible to build a Ply hull with carbon beams and masts boat pretty close to 165 lbs.

Second point is what we should be discussing is not purchase price, but yearly cost of ownership. My last A cat 2000 (Boyer Mark 4) cost me less then 1000$ per year to own for 3 years and I sailed it about 150 days total.
Last Fall I bought a used 2005 XJ. I think that it will cost me ~2000$ year to own as long as I don’t smash it into someone.
You only have one sail to buy and they last along time if you use an older sail for practice. New mains with battens run about 1500$ delivered. Compared to a spinnaker equipped boat the sail replacement costs are cheap and you get great sails.


Cheers
eric

Well put.

The discussion in this thread is just to interesting to ignore !

Allow me to run by each point in chronological order




Yes, and it is called Formula 16.




But it will be not be as dependable and strong as the modern 26.000 bucks A-cats. 3 mm ply and skimming big time on the bulkheads is making these timber boats pretty sensitive. The difference between a 3 mm timber skin (A-cat) and a 4 mm skin (F16) is very significant. The latter will feel and be twice as stiff and resistant against damage from sideways loads.





What a BS ! I can get a fully rigged F16 for what ? 15.000 USD tops. The A-cat will be 20.000 that means I can replace my 1500 USD main twice and also have two 800 USD replacement spinnaker and still have 400 USD left in my pocket for a replacement jib before I reach the A-cat retail price with only 1 mainsail. Making almost 3 suits of sails again only 1 mainsail on the A. How much time will this cover, 10 years ?

After 4 years of sailing I'm still on my first mainsail and spinnaker. And every class will "do a long time with a main if you are only using your old main for practice". That argument is not in anyway unique to the A-cat class.

And of course only the A-cat boat get great sails delivered by sailmakers, the rest of us just have to make do with good or acceptable sails ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Isn't the diversity here awesome! Look at all the different boats we sail. I sail an FX-ONE and love it for what it is. I like to use the car analogy to try to understand why different sailors sail different boats.
Some people like to drive Hondas. They get the job done. They start everytime, get good mileage, and are relatively inexpensive.
I prefer to drive a Dodge Cummins. It's reliable, can tow a a lot of stuff and gets relatively good mileage. It's a bit more pricey than a Honda, but it suits my needs of owning Surf City Catamarans.
Now there are some guys out there that want the best top of the line Ferrari. I don't judge them or tell them they should've bought the Honda. I just understand that that car suits their needs. Whatever their needs are.
That's why people on a message board can opine all day long about what boat THEY think is the best and why. Meanwhile, people will be at my shop buying Hobie Bravos for their kids, Catalina 27's so they can go on a weekend trip to Monterey, Hobie 16's to race one design, and arguably the best A-class cats produced in the world The Gel-Tek Flyer 2.
Isn't diversity great!

[color:"blue"] [/color] "Woot" “Don't let anybody convince you that the choice is limited to only two alternatives !
Question: Whats up with 400 pound boats and $ 26,000 A Cats ?
How about a 240 lbs / $ 14.000 screamer ? Lightweight like an A,…..”

What a BS ! I can get a fully rigged F16 for what ? 15.000 USD tops. The A-cat will be 20.000 that means I can replace my 1500 USD main twice and also have two 800 USD replacement spinnaker and still have 400 USD left in my pocket for a replacement jib before I reach the A-cat retail price with only 1 mainsail. Making almost 3 suits of sails again only 1 mainsail on the A. How much time will this cover, 10 years ?

After 4 years of sailing I'm still on my first mainsail and spinnaker. And every class will "do a long time with a main if you are only using your old main for practice". That argument is not in anyway unique to the A-cat class.”

[color:"blue"] [/color]
[color:"black"] [/color] First of all, comparing a 165 lb 18 ft long boat to a 16 ft 240 lb boat is somewhat absurd. That would be like saying you could get a 14 ft boat that only weighed 350 lbs and is light weight like a F16. Now if the F16’s weighed in at around 150 lbs, I might buy your light weight argument. Ditto the cost argument. If A cats were 50% heavier, they would be a lot cheaper also. Compare apples to oranges or it is meaningless.

There is a huge difference in the feel and sailing characteristics of a 165 lb boat and a 240 lb boat. Same thing when you go from 240 lbs to 330lb Hobie 16+spinnaker,H17, (F17), Hobie FX-1, nacra 5.5 Uni. If you don’t appreciate the difference then don’t buy one. Think about this:

A class 165 lbs (lightest) 19,000$ (110% more) 2006 DPN 64.6 Fastest
F-16 240 lbs (45% heavier) 15,000$ (66% more) 2006 DPN 67.1 (3.8% slower)
H 16+spi320 lbs (94% heavier) 9,000$ (baseline) 2006 DPN 72.9 (13% slower)

H Wave+spi 250 lbs (51% heavier) 4,400$ (105% less) 2006 DPN 88 (36% slower)

It all kind of makes sense doesn’t it?


As far as sail costs go, maybe you have some incredible unobtanium sailcloth, but my personal experience with sails is as follows:
Competitive lifespan of a Mainsail 60-75days, Jib 30 days, spinnaker 30 days.
For me this worked out to a jib and spinnaker every year and a main every other year.
I have owned catamaran sails by Goodall, Glaser, Ulman, Smyth, Shore, EP, and HobieCat. For ME personally, this worked out to be around 8-10 sails over the 4 years I own a boat. Now I am down to about 2 sails per 4 years. Your mileage may vary.

Sail fast, sail light
Eric

When both boats reach the finish line at the same time then they are both "oranges" (or "apples", whatever you prefer).

The rest of the argument is about which one does so more efficiently.


60-75 days per mainsail ? That would be 2 or 3 seasons in my book.
30 days for a jib may well have been true for the old overlapping kind made of dacron, but the selftackers seem to last alot longer in my opinion. Partly because they can now be made out of pentex too because there is no more flapping about etc. With respect to jib loads, I'm not seeing much degrading of the shape because of it. I honestly feel that the new jib setups are much more stable then the older ones. The spinnaker sail is most definately the one that ends it competitive life much sooner then the others, but then again they do last. So you trick to using only the old spi in basic training and the new one for racing will cut down on the related costs.

But my basic point was ofcourse that all the savings one can make on the sails when one sails an A-cat are meaningless when just getting the boat itself will cost you many times more. That difference needs to be won back first before "cheap sails" will start to favour the A.





We all know that the F16 DPN is bogus. In the rest of the world we are sailing of the F18 handicap or just 1% away from it. ONLY US DPN thinks this needs to be 7% slower then the F18's. I'm not wasting anymore breath on that issue.

Personally I can buy a new Hobie 16 with spi for about 14.500 Euro's, for the same price I can also get any of the F16's. I don't know why the Hobie 16's are so much more cheaper in the USA, but I know that they are.





Perfectly, like SurfCity said :"Isn't diversity great!"




I think having so many sails for one boat type is a little bit silly. Even if it is a sloop with spinnaker boat. This means that you had 3 suits of sails (mainsail, jib, spinnaker) in only 4 years of sailing. Why would you need 3 mainsails on this boat when you suddenly can make do with only 2 mainsails on the A-cat in the same timespan ? Do mainsails wear down quicker on a spinnaker boat ? By the same token a singlehanded F16 will not need any jibs and so we can strike those from the listing altogether.

Personally I feel too many people concentrate too much on getting new sails and too little on getting their "old" sails to work well. Also I feel that 90 % of the sailors out there are not held back by having old sails but rather by having insufficient sailing skills. For them it will hardly make a difference if they buy a new suit of sail every 2 years. For truly competitive sailors getting new sails often is significant, but then again they need to buy a new boat every 3 years as well, did we included that in the calculation ?

Now I'm not taking anything away from the A-cats with exception of some eyebrow raising claims.






Yes there is and it is not said that this is in favour of the 165 lbs boat and visa versa ! Different boats for different people and that is what you proved by your listing ones again.


Wouter

What kind of durability do these boats have when there are collisions? Fibre glass can break without much force. I'm just curious. I think I'd be real nervous that first couple of minutes in a crowded race with 25k under me.

A cats don't fair well when hit by heavier boats. However and A cat getting hit by an A cat seems to be aobut the same as 2 I20's hitting each other. If you T bone an A cat at speed, you are going to sink them.

Do you sail at Lake Pepin? I was out there last year at the DN North Americans. Not alot of stuff in Lake city. I did see more eagles every day driving down from Redwing then I had in my whole previus lifetime. Awesome sight.

Cheers,
eric

I agree with Eric's previous post and while carbon is stronger and stiffer than fiberglass, it typically has less impact resistance. Most of the sailors entering the A-class are fairly experienced so it's rare that we see collisions (but they do happen). At the last Midwinters with over 50 boats, there were no incidents at all but at our last Gulfport regatta, a new sailor let his boat get away from him and there was minor damage to his and another boat (but they were both sailing the next day).

In all honesty, I'm more vigilant at larger open class regattas because the experience level is not as high (typically more novice sailors) and we have to keep an eye on the spinnaker boats because their ability to keep clear and see everything downwind is more limited than our boats.

Bob Hodges

Lake City doesn't have a ton to offer. It's a small town. But the lake is the best sailing in the area w/out having to drive 3-4hrs. Its about 40 min from my house so I'm down there semi-frequently.

I don't think I'd deserve an A-Cat. I'd bounce it off of someone and end up with a real mess.

Bob, you just need to be more vigilant with your beam bolts and RI lobster fishermen.

Sorry, couldnt resist.

Bill

Thank you for spreading the word everyone, looks like this container is sold out and we're starting to fill the next. Let me know if you're interested in one of these awesome boats. Congrats to the new owners!

Going back to the price of A-Class boats and the price of carbon.

Until recently aerospace didn't really use a lot of carbon. 100,000 lb here and 250,000 lb there. It was a speciality material.

Now it's different. To support the composite airliners, aircraft builders are buying all the best priced carbon for years in abvance. All that is left for companies that do not have long term contracts are the high priced suppliers. Things should get better by 2010-2011 but, it will probably get worse before then.

To put things in perspective a Boeing Dreamliner, is about 850 A-Cats.

Epoxy/ceder/kevlar is looking better and better

how is that nomex honeycomb core for dent resistance?

No nomex paper honeycomb, ceder with 2-3oz kevlar on the inside. I dropped a completed hull off a work bench onto concrete, it bounced, no damage other than some "road rash" on the surface.

The real issue with wood is labor. The conventional methods are labor intensive. To get around the labor you are going to have to develope and build some really expensive equipment.

We have carbon boats today because aerospace payed the capital expenses and some sailors used the equipment and knowledge. The only people developing wood construction that I know are the super high end furniture builders and none of them are cat sailors.

They AND Phill Brander !

Afterall the Blade F16 is a timber design with modern hull lines.


Click on the next link to see students from a Finnish Marine School building a Blade F16 as a school project.

http://www.gust.ax/gallery/sydvast_maritime/

Wouter

Please look at the build specs.. NO carbon in the hulls

these As dont have carbon in their hulls! Carbon used in the beams and mast!..
A carbon hull was a rarity from AHPC.. Wasnt needed to get down to weight or strength..

Yep. There were seveal other options for the US market that we discussed to cut costs for the next order. These boats can be built with straight glass, aluminum boom, 1X19 stainless trap wires and still come in at weight. I don't have the pricing up on my site for those options yet, but I'm working on it.

Phill has my complete admiration for working in wood. However, it was the manufacturing I was thinking about. Some of these high end woodworkers have developed equipment and techniques for construction and production that I have never heard of anywhere else. They are combining CAD and CNC routers with visual mapping systems that can recognize and cut around bad spots in the wood or locate interesting knots and burls in low stress areas

Imagine, that you want to build a strip planked catamaran hull using female vertical half molds. You could feed the CAD data to a system that would calculate the individual battens. Each batten would have a unique taper, edge angle, edge to locate it in the mold, and provisions to locate the bulkheads and dagger board trunk. That data goes to a CNC router that cuts and numbers each batten.

Now take the battens to the mold. Lay in mold film, apply the outer layer of epoxy, then light glass for the skin, next a layer of epoxy with filler to accommodate imperfections in the wood, and finally the battens with epoxy applied to the edges. Then lay in the peel ply/mat and vacuum bag it.

Once you start working at this level there are lots of things you can do. For example:

You can cut the battens out of a laminate that spells the name of the boat out on the outer skin using different colored woods or laminate composites in for strength in critical areas.

You could close out the hull half's with an ultra light weight vertical bulkhead that the runs the full length of the hull. It turns the hull half's into a "D". Then you join the hull half's by gluing the flat section of the "D"s together.

Precession cut veneer and laminate it over a mold. You can add composite or different woods inside for strength. This would allow you to build a monocque hull with no internal bulkheads, like my A.

Vacuum bake the wood to remove the water and use high pressure (5000-10000 psi) to force moderate temp cure (150-200F) epoxy into the wood. This completely seals the wood and improves the strength.


A lot of things have developed since tortured ply, if you want to build a production boat out of wood

Carl,

You haven't given this much thought have you? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Carl you and I need to hang out. I was going to put some high end furniture grade wood laminate in the mold on my A cat but decided against it because I was worried about the thermal issues from having it sit in the sun. I'd love to have a "wood" boat that is only wood as the first 3/32 of the laminate, with a foam core and composite inner skin.

Or cotton fabric outer skin, which actually adds some structure, unlike paint.

Less than foam core, and end grain balsa and prone to significant delamination and water absorbsion if the laminate isnt done perfectly. It is however the lightest core available per square foot. I've heard reports of nomex weeping water, and denting really, really easily with very minor bumps, but thats more a factor of the skin, and bond to skin.

So unless you've got serious skills, or complete and total confidence in your builder, dont use nomex. And its hard to get your hands on, the aircraft industry likes it, most of what you can get is the end of a run from some aircraft order.

I recommend foam core, corecell is good stuff - cheap, easly to get, easy to work with, wont absorb water, good dent resistance, bonds are easier, bends with heat, cuts easily. Only slightly heavier per square ft than nomex.

Bill

I dont know wether it is cellulose honeycomb or nomex in our Marstrøm Tornado, but I suspect it's nomex. It's very dentable in my opinion.

Jeremy how do the A cats and the fx-one compare. Im about 215lbs so I wonder about the race seen also. Am I doomed to Finn sailing or is there singlehanded cat 4 me to race.
Don

I would say that there is ample choice of performant singlehanded cats that will suit your weight well. Anything with a spinnaker will effectively cut down any disadvantage you'll have by being 215 lbs. In my opinion being a lightweight or heavyweight skipper doesn't impact performance as much on a catamaran as it does on a monohull dinghy.





With respect to race scene, things may be more dependent on where you are. The only singlehanded catamaran to have a world wide racing scene with respectable fleets everywhere is the A-cat at this time. The catamaran scene is transforming currently, the old singlehanded classes that were popular worldwide like the Hobie 17 are dying out. Especially one-design classes are vanishing from the scene. Three new designs/classes are trying to become new international classes in addition to the A-cats. These are the Hobie FX-one, Nacra inter-17 and the Formula 16's. All three have spinnakers. The last named class is currently the one with an international presence all over the world albeit in modest numbers. Now and then the F16's combine events with the A's. The F16's hold their first world cup in a week time. Nacra inter-17 had a comparably sized US nationals just last week I believe and the FX-one holds European championships with the same numbers of boats soon. A-cats holds large US, European, Australian and World Cup events. But then it has been around since the 60's. The A's don't have a spinnaker though and at 215 lbs you may want to loose some body weight to be really competitive.

So it all comes down to what you really want and where you are located.

Wouter

I'm 220 and it isn't a factor. My sailing is a factor.

www.vectorworkssail.com

I bought my Blade about 18 months ago and everything, all new: boat, sails, trailer, cat tracks, harness et al, came in it at $17k.

Lars Guck is around 200 poonds and is the current UN Natonal Champion. My son is 215 and placed 5th at the Nationals in Travis City. Do not use your weight as an excuse!!! Tune your sail/ mast right and just sail to your level. Come to Florida in November and watch 100 A's at the Worlds (number limmited by international rules or there would possibly be more). Where are you located? Some large fleets in some parts of the country.

Ken
USA 192

Is Lars Guck really around 200lbs?? There is hope even for me then.. But seriously, I have always tought a heavy crew would be disadvantaged against a lighter crew. A lighter crew will be fully powered up faster, create less hull-drag and sail with flatter sails which means less drag. A light crew will reach best VMG faster and be able to go into "pointing" mode earlier as the wind increases. Heavier crews will have some advantage in heavy winds, but until they have to let out on the traveller to depower I still think the lighter crews have the advantage.

Well,

I think that if Lars was going to compete for an Olympic berth he would probably get down to fighting weight, but if you look at his results in the A-Class in North America, he seems to be pretty unbeatable. It is his sailing skills and mastery of the boat that gets him there repeatedly, not his weight. I have watched him absolutely sail away from other competitors this year. At the Pre-Worlds/Mid-Winters this year, I believe that he won all but one race, which Pete Melvin won. During the last day of sailing, he had put quite a bit of distance between himself and the rest of the fleet by the first windward mark. It was an amazing display of control, finesse, racing skills and competitiveness. The winds were clocking 22-25 at the beginning of the first race and backed down to 18-20 for the final. Most of us watched from the beach that day, I for one not comfortable enough on an A to test my skills on a chartered boat in those conditions.

If Lars isn't big enough to sail an A-cat well, Clive Mayo is Much Bigger (240 these days?). Steve Clark too, for that matter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Get a floaty one, and BE HAPPY.