Its time to take responsibility for our destiny

An open letter to the Multihull Community:

Dear Multihull Sailors

Way backing in 2001 our US SAILING Multihull Committee put forward the idea of starting a national regatta for youth multihull sailors. The purpose was to generate enthusiasm with our children by introducing them to the concept they could be successful sailing catamarans. Our 7th annual US Youth Multihull Championship was sailed last week at ABYC in Long Beach, California. What a real success story.

Someone recently asked if we need the Tornado in the Olympics to be successful. Take a look at these names: Anders Straume, Hunter Stunzi, Tom & Jerry Tullo, Marc Kennedy, Todd Riccardi, Brett Sullivan, Chris Batchelor, Laura Young, Harry Newkirk, Tom Fruitticher, Marie Appel, Tim Wallace, Mike Iames, Frank Burns, Jennifer Innwood, Jack Field, Tyler Burd, Duncan Padura, Andy Warwick, Tyler Faust, Allen Michael, Cameron Biehl, Pike Harris, Kyler Hast, Mike Siau, Sam Ingham, Evan Miller, Sarah & Elizabeth Newberry, Eric Raybon, Jason Bilow, Luke Lawrence, Alex Sachs, Kaitlan Yasher, and Sierra Manno. Please think about who these people are for a minute. I bet you know several of these fine young sailors. These kids and many more are the direct result of efforts put forward by so many volunteers within our Multihull Community all across the country. They are our friends and our competitors in today’s real world of Catamaran sailing.

We have an opportunity now to take control of our own destiny. A new group is forming called NAYMA and along with Performance Catamaran, Sl16 Class Association and the Jacksonville Sailing Foundation, a massive effort to bring youth Multihull sailing to the next level will be achieved.

Performance Catamaran has announced their support by offering 6 new SL16 Catamarans to NAYMA for their use. This is a huge financial commitment to children.

The first year plan is to bring these new SL16’s to venues across the US and provide round robin racing and clinic opportunities to local children already acquainted with sailing. Those kids that sail catamarans with their dads, Lasers, CFJ’s or 420 sailors . We all know them at our clubs or they can be found sailing at yacht club sailing foundation events on any given weekend. We expect to offer each venue the opportunity to purchase at manufactures cost 1-3 boats if they agree to use them in their sail training programs. By the way, this is not a US SAILING program.

What can you do to make a direct impact?

1. We are asking the entire Multihull Community in the U.S. to send a check to Darline Hobock, 5373 East 27th Street, Tulsa, OK 74114. More is better if you can afford it as its all tax deductible. Founding membership is $2,000, Supporting member is $75.00 and sustaining member is $40.


2. What are we going to do with that money? It is going directly into this program. No other organization is getting a penny. We have an agreement with our insurance agents, our 501c3 corporation is in operation and trucking to venues is being arranged.

3. Volunteer your club or sailing venue to host a regatta.

Our goal is to raise $100,000 to eventually offer sailing programs free equipment. But we need start up funds right now to get a truck full of equipment on the road. We are besieged with parents wanting us to come to their venues and sail because of the championships in Long Beach.

We have the experience to make this work. Remember our Fast and Fun Program? After three years and 5,000 children I think we know something about exposure and working with children. With your help, we can make a significant difference. Almost a thousand responses to USOC andthe Tornado question must tell us something..

Sincerely yours,

Arthur J Stevens
Youth Multihull Advocate
310-245-0614
www.nayma.org

That sounds great, Art.

I hope you have told US Sailing and the Olympic Sailing Committee about your program. They keep saying the multihull community needs to create its own pipeline (and path to the Olympics) for our youth sailors, and it sounds like you are taking an important step forward.

And I also hope that you have given the OSC that list of names of young multihull sailors. They say they are already aware of the available multihull talent and took that into consideration when they decided we would not be able to win a medal in the multihull event in 2012.

It amazes me that they are able to project that far ahead. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> And it must be insulting and demoralizing to our young sailors to know that their National Governing Body has predicted their failure. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

C'mon everybody, Art's leading, let's follow!

We're in. Barb and Chip Short, Take Chances At The Helm, Inc. dba Founders Park Sailing Programs is going to support this program.

I've already emailed Art personally, dialogue is going, and our company is sending in it's founding membership check this week.

If you're in Florida start thinking about coming down to the fabulous Florida Keys to participate and see the SL16 program in action when we get dates and details pulished. Bring all the kids you can round up!

Nobody else has any opinions about this major initiative on behalf of youth multihull sailing?

Where are the thousand multihull sailors who sent in complaints about US Sailing excluding the multihull from their event list for the 2012 Olympics?

I am sort of picturing a series of miniature Junior Olympic Festivals, except on multihulls only.

So, I am wondering, now that boats will be available -- and transportation for them -- whether we would have a chance of getting US Sailing to include multihulls in some of their Junior Olympic Festivals. I think that would be preferable to having a whole separate set of events for multihulls only.

Thank you Art for taking this huge initiative!

I have forwarded your posting to the CRAC sailors on the Chesapeake.

I plan to get the Chesapeake Bay catamaran clubs together ( WRCRA, CRAC, Fleet 54 and 32, PRSA and SMCA along with West River Sailing Club) and explore how we can get on board with this initiative.

West River Sailing Club has become the center of cat racing on the Chesapeake as they have become home to a 20 boat A Cat fleet, and a 5 boat Nacra 20 fleet. West River Sailing is hosting the A class North Americans next month. There is great potential for supporting junior cat racing in this area. In addition to the boats, we must develop the program within our region as well.

In the past we have been content with running our own sailing program, plus our local/regional club and racing activities. Now we must add to this mission the development of a real junior training program!

Art,

If you folks would like a video player for your new site please shoot me an email and Ill design a custom one for you. We can work on getting some video up of the kids.

Brian

Hi Mary

Junior Olympics are an organizational nightmare. 200 kids = chaos. The PRO ages about a year every time he does this.

The concern of the PRO will always be... saftey! ... small beach, fast boats = one potential disaster. The race course is already a challenge with opti's lasers, radials and 420's.

One of the issues to resolve is Is it safe to put the kids on the same race course with the 420's and lasers. (This issue is why I started the other thread).

The solution will be... We catamaran clubs need to step up and run another race course at the JO's ... then the kids all mix it up. My Chesapeake JO's are July 14 and 15, They conflict with an adult regatta and it may be a push to make it happen with boats etc. but... where there is a will... there is a way.

Mark

Brian: That sounds super. Darline Hobock is our web master. She is on overload at the moment just getting back from Long Beach and then us making this announcement. Can you e-mail her at HobockD@aol.com

We are wanting to use video as a training tool. I have seen some mini cams attached to boats and GPS is used in Europe as a wonderful tool for coaching. Each event we do includes a clinic so we are asking for help in this area. The Olympic Multihull Coach Jim Young is on board. Another great coach is Richard Feeney who was at the youth nationals and did a great job for us this year. I would include Mike Ingham as well because he did last years event in Miami, another very good coach, but I haven't asked Mike or Richard yet to be on our staff. Another thing I need to get accomplished. Its really great to have coaching on this level available to us. I know more people will want to become involved in the future.

Sure. We provide the boats, we provide a clinic for the multihull kids, we provide the course -- what objections can they possibly come up with?

I know, not enough land space at the host venue. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Arthur:

Sounds great. If you ever get to Houston area, count me in to help. I have one of the 2002 US Sailing youth boat. Mystere 4.3. You are welcome to use it. I started my grand daughter at 6, now 13. Has two years of trapzee and learning helm now.

Doug Snell

It would be great if they could show up for the Wild Cat Regatta at the Lake Eustis Sailing Club (north of Orlando). Lots of kids in Optis there and at that regatta, you will have lots of other adult cat sailors to help the kids sort out the new boats too. Two other places that need cats for kids are the Sarasota Sailing Squadron and the Martin County Sailing Center. Both have beaches to launch from and great club support.

Well done to everyone for taking the initiative - hopefully this will work. The RYA (UK) did this about 8 years ago with 6 Dart 16s provided by Laser. Then ISAF declared the Hobie 16 Spi the Youth Cat. The kids did not think that this 30 + year old design was cool enough and, apart from the dedicated few, the whole thing never really took off.

Then ISAF decided that the SL 16 should be the Youth Cat. So the manufacturers and the class put a lot of work into promoting the class.
In 2007 the Hobie 16 Spi will still be the boat for the Worlds. But then in 2008 the new SL 16 class should have built up numbers and will be the boat sailed. This all seems great, and maybe parents and Clubs will be encouraged to invest in youth sailing and buy some of these cats.

BUT, why should they - when they find that in 2009 everything goes back to the old ways and the old design HOBIE 16 Spi is once the designated cat for the Youth Worlds <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Pretty simple really, ISAF books their regattas many years in advance. Equipment is chosen as in the case of Brazil because the Hobie is made in that country and Sl16's are not yet manufactured there. The following year the equipment chosen will SL16's in Turkey. Let's not forget it was just a couple of years ago Multihulls weren't even invited to the ISAF Youth World Regatta. Great strides have been made and to start a new class just for kids isn't something done overnight. The USA is just starting to participate with the rest of the world in youth Multihull sailing and we need to get our house in order first. This translates to getting kids sailing in Multihulls, all kinds of Multihulls and becoming the sailors we know they can be. That in a nutshell is our job.

Congratulations once again, it is a great project. I would suggest acquiring the services of Brian Phipps. Not just to coach your juniors, but to advise on how to run your sessions. He has vast experience and great enthusiasm in this field.

Art, thanks for getting the ball rolling on this. I realize all the boats are on the west coast right now. About what time (years, months) do you think they might make it out to the east coast? The reason I ask, most of the clubs in Florida shut down in the hotter, windless summer months. In the Winter, they are going strong, while the north east clubs are under snow. Next winter, if the trailer full of SL16's are anywhere near Florida, I could talk to some of the clubs in my area about doing a Cat Day or weekend, for their youth Laser and 420 sailors.

We expect to be in Florida this coming winter doing at least one program with Barb and Chip Short down in the Keys.. So go ahead and contact your club or other sailing organizations. We have JC from France helping us as regatta manager this spring/summer. He is in charge of scheduling so contact him at jcam.sirena@orange.fr He lives in Los Angeles and was our beach master at the Youth Nationals this year.

I for one sincerly apreciate Arts endevor in this as it has sparked an enthusiasam in my daughter that I HOPE will last in her life.
Entering into the Youth Multihull event vey green, they recieved support that was unimaginable. Two thirteen year old girls entering into sailing.
Thanks Art, and your fine suport group.
Mike Hensel

Mike: Your team is exactly who we see as the future of our sport. They came to a major event which in itself was an accomplishment with all the practice time, travel and then facing 17 other youth teams. It can be intimidating. But no your girls held fast, went out in fairly strong winds and did SSP proud. My guess is we will be seeing them again soon if front of the fleet.

OK all you folks that support Youth Multihull sailing, it is time to take out you checkbook, and write a check to North America Youth Multihull Association. See details at www.nayma.org. Mailing my check today.

BTW, grandson Dan is taking the Hobie 16 class at Sail Sand Point in Seattle, this summer. See www.sailsandpoint.org. Son Tom crewed on our H-16 at Dan's age, then became skipper as I moved to crew, when he was 16.

Let's all pitch in and help get Art's program going.

Caleb Tarleton, Hobie 16 #14859, a long time ago.

Art,

While I appreciate your efforts to increase the awareness of youth multihull sailing, your website seems like a thinly veiled promotion for the SL16 Class.

There are links to the SL16 site and class rules prominently displayed on the left menu.

The "2007 Events" menu selection is non-functional and should, at the very minimum, list the Hobie 16 Youth Championships to be held in Geneva, NY this summer.

In fact, the word "Hobie" does not appear anywhere on your website.

When you acknowlege the efforts of the Hobie Class Association's youth programs and initiatives, I'll be more willing to send you a check. Until then, I'll support my own class' youth programs.

Matt Bounds
Editor
Hobie HOTLINE

Matt,

Perhaps you could flesh out the Hobie 16 junior program.

What is the goal?

What kind of schedule is there for juniors?

What clubs have programs?

How many kids?

Where are the kids going on to as they grow up?

How does the 16 junior program mesh with existing US Sailing programs?

How does the 16 junior program fit in with the international junior programs?

Could you speak for the class and explain what is the official or unofficial relationship between US Sailing Olympic Development program and the Hobie 16 Junior program?

Do you have the support of Bodie and Bremer?

What does their support (or lack their off) look like?

Do you think that the coach ( Bodie) will be supporting the junior sailors at the 16 junior nationals by actually coaching ... or err... getting a coach for the sailors?

Do you think the coach will be supporting the 16 junior talent in getting a shot at the top tier of collegiate sailing? (eg... letters of recomondation)

Will they be setting up mentoring programs so that the 16 junior sailors have access to senior sailors who have been there... done that and can peer advise?

Do you think the coach has an alternate program for high performance sailors et.. the 16 junior kids considering that the college circuit is for laser and 420 sailors only?

Now... I can guess at the answers that Bodie and Bremmer will give you... But I also don't know how the Hobie junior program addresses these many programatic issues.

The dificulty we all face is trying to figure out what resources we have, what is the program, what resources do we need.

In fact... we probably need to clearly state the goal... Two extremes... If its develop the next generation of recreational catamaran sailors... then we have one kind of program... If its develop elite sailors for international competition... We have a different set of issues.

I didn't expect a warm reception on this forum regarding this Mark, but perhaps you should ask Art these questions. After all, he's the one that has held himself out as "The North American Youth Multihull Association". I never said that the HCA's Youth Program was the be-all, end-all of youth multihull sailing in North America.

As for the HCA Youth Program, it consists of:
1) Grants to youth HCA members to enable participation in national / international events. This will facilitate several teams attendance at the 2007 H-16 Youth North Americans in July and the 2007 H-16 Youth Worlds (Fiji) in October.
2) The conduct of the 2007 H-16 Youth North Americans. They don't happen by themselves.

This does not take into account the various programs run by local Hobie Fleets, like the Hobie Fleet 84 / HCA Division 7 Youth Regatta in August.

Can you name another catamaran class that does this?

I didn't think so.

I will repeat my statement - I'd be more willing to donate to Art's cause if it wasn't so blatant a promotion of the SL16 class. If Art wants to tap into the Hobie masses, he better acknowledge the existence of more than his own show.

BTW, the best youth multihull sailors in North America aren't from the United States. They're Guatemalan. What's Art's plan for connecting with them?

I think its a blatant promotion of the SL16 class since thats the ISAF youth multihull for next year (or is it this year? I can't keep track)



So, does this mean that, if Art manages to throw in "hobie" every 15th word on his website, that means that youth teams on the SL16 can participate in HCA events? No? You don't say?

So we X classers (SL16's being in the X Class) can't get in your sandbox, yet you demand to be in theirs!?!?

MauganN20 this tack is not helpful... The adults can dick around with the hobie edict one more time but its a moot point, and more importantly... not the point in this initiative.

The goal is develop a YOUTH Program to develop elite multihull racers. (hopefully this is not in question)

Fact... most of the junior sailors have access to Hobie 16's.

Fact, ISAF and the world are moving to spin equiped cats and choose the SL16.

Fact... nobody is going to do this job for us.

Fact... one more argument over the size and shape of the table for the peace talks WILL result in failure.

Matt.. we cannot afford another pissing contest over the equipment used. We have too few resources in terms of clubs and adults. Our impact on the larger world of internatonal sailing has been small and if US Sailing has their way... our voice will be irrelevant.

How can we adapt the 29ner program for cats using Hobie 16's and Sl16's and get a program going around the country that actually going that holds together, gets noticed by the Olympic coach, and gets the big yacht clubs to take notice and support us?

Tad, as Mark pointed out, your juvenile response is counterproductive and misses the point entirely.

If you are going to hold yourself out as the "North American Youth Multihull Association", you need to encompass all catamaran youth programs, and not blatently promote a single class.

Matt,
I told Art the same thing, that the web site looks too much like sales promotion for the SL 16. And you are right that the the site should list the Hobie youth events in their event schedule.

It is important that we all work together to provide as many youth multihull events, clinics, etc. as possible, no matter what kind of cats they are on.

NAYMA should not be identified with one particular class of boat.

I also asked Art about the North America name and whether other countries are included or just US sailors. His answer did not satisfy me, even though he said the organization is just for US sailors.

I agree 100%. A pissing match will get us nowhere. The days of 100-200 boats regatta all over the country when I started in 1979 will NEVER happen again no matter what we do. WE must do everything we can to get the youth involved or it won't matter what boat we sail, we WILL just all get to old and won't sail any boats. That is why I started my grand daughter sailing with me since she was 6, now 13. Next season I will start with the 7 year old twins. Had the girl out already in 18 knots and she LOVED it. We must band together and put all our (WHO HAS THE BEST BOAT) BS to bed and work together as a group. That is why I now trying to setup the 5 SL-16's coming here for a round robin race and clinic. PLEASE guys, let put egos aside and band together.

Just my 2 cents. Comments welcome.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell

I think the answer is we must support ALL Youth Multihull programs: Hobie Cat Association, Internation Hobie Cat Association, US SAILING Youth Multihull Programs, North American Youth Multihull Association, NAMSA, your local Community Sailing Centers, and Yacht Clubs.

Our multihull program at Sail Sand Point in Seattle has taken seven years to develop. We now have five Waves and six Hobie 16's, all donated with no expenditure of capital funds. We have expanded from just a storage facility to sailing classes and programs including the Waves in youth cruising camps, and open sailing to now include classes for youth and adults on the Hobie 16's. This has all been done with the direct support of our local Hobie Cat Dealer, Hobie Cats Northwest (now located at SSP) and all our local Multihull Sailors. Yes, we have mulihull sailors that sail and own ALL types of multihulls including the larger tri's and cat's.

Art brought the US SAILING Fast and Fun program to Seattle in 2001, then back in 2002. This helped get our programs going. His goal is do similar programs with NAYMA, to promote new youth programs in new areas. The target areas will be areas that do not have established programs or facilities with current youth multihull programs.

Our local volunteers trained and supported three youth teams from SSP at the recent US SAILING Youth Multihull Championship in California. They all had a good time, and a life experience they will never forget. The youth teams will continue to compete in our Monday night races at SSP, and Hobie Cat regattas. At least two of the Youth sailors will continue to be US SAILING certified instructors at SSP, on both monohulls and multihulls.

This is how you build and support Youth Multihull programs.

Caleb Tarleton
SSP,HCA, US SAILING,NAMSA,NAYMA,and anyone else that promotes Youth Multihull Programs.

Caleb,

How do you suppose you would you integrate the SL16 into your program?

Since you have not bought boats in the past ... this might not happen for a bit... but if you had a boat... What could you do with it?

Perhaps its the immediate plum for a team training on a H16 to move up to? The top team gets to practice with the new toy on the next training day... (chutes are very cool Hell the 420 has a chute... why can't we! We promise not to run over any other junior sailors..)

Perhaps... a fleet of SL16's are available to the Hobie 16 sailors who have proven their skill previously for a weekend regatta?

What might you have in mind?

Mark/Caleb:

This is what Arthur sent to me. We are working on the local yacht clubs to put something together. I am sure he would do the same for any of you if contact him right. We ALL need to work together.

Hi Doug:

I didn't see your response because it was at the end of the message, sorry. Anyway you wrote:
So how many boats? What kind? When will they be in our area? I need more
info
1. We have 5 new Sl16's in the tractor trailer for your event.
2. We are open to schedule events to what ever is the best sailing weather in your area. Your decision and coordination is necessary with other clubs in
the area.
3. Our plan is to have you invite as many sailors as possible that sail catamarans, laser, 420's, 29er etc.
We will have round robin racing for two days with a clinic maybe Friday evening/Sat morning. Get kids familiar
with the new boat and then race as much as we can through Sun afternoon.
4. You might have to house and feed kids. Kids don't have cars and can't stay by themselves in a hotel. You can expect kids to come from other areas
so airport runs might happen as well. Dallas comes to mind as an example. When kids find out this is in Texas you will see them flying in.
5. You should collect a $250 damage deposit just like they all do now for their 420 Vanguard regattas.
6. Charge an entry fee and we propose $100 each kid. That breaks down to $50 per day each for use of the supplied boats. Kids/parents are used to paying these kids of fees and more.
7. Get sponsors to help offset the regatta costs.
8. We will supply round robin computer scoring unless you already have that.
9. We need to offset the cost of fuel for our tractor trailer so we are asking for your committee to plan for maybe 20 kids/10 teams.
This would bring in $2,000 which we should get $1,500 to pay for our cost to get to Huston. We would hope for more because that doesn't really cover it so if
sponsors are interested , that makes it better. We are trying to be cost neutral but don't expect that to happen for several years.
As the program grows we will have more interest therefore more revenue and more venues.
10. We are getting regatta insurance to cover liability which is a must for a kid program.

So you need to figure out a venue, time to hold the regatta, supply kids, PRO,judges, marks, chase/safety boats and all the stuff associated with having
a great time sailing .I know it all sounds like a big deal and it is but the fun and exposure is well worth the effort.

Best regards,
AJS
310-245-0614

Well why don't you or your fleet DONATE some H16s then to his cause. Put your money were your mouth is.

I posted earlier on this forum that we are starting a sailing school on h16s and there wasn't the slightest bit of interest. It seems a lot of people on this forum want to either ignore or else start attacking others who are actually getting off their butts and and DOING something to get kids into cat sailing.

Mark, let me respond this way. We will probably not be adding SL-16's to our current program at SSP. We are very happy with our current inventory of Waves and H-16's. BTW, four of the Waves were new, donated from various groups, the first being our local multihull sailors. The H-16's are being repaired and upgraded by our local multihull sailors, most have H-16's or experience on this boat.

When our three teams were trained for the US Youth Multihull Champ, they were trained on both H-16's and Tigers. The training did prepare them for the SL-16.

The Hobie 16 and SL-16 are both ISAF Youth Champ boats. The ISAF Youth Worlds will be on the H-16 with spin this year, then SL-16, and back to the H-16 the following year. Our Youth will be racing in local regattas and training for Youth Nationals events. This includes Hobie Cat Youth Nationals, but that is a long way to New York. Our sailors in HCA Div. 4 in Canada also have active growing youth fleets.

The brand of boat is not as important as the support that is generated for the program by the local volunteers and sailors
Caleb

Awesome another new boat to buy, I will just run out, get the money and buy one. I am sure other parents will do the same, NOT! Same old, same old, another new boat, another new year, another reason to keep the kids in soccer.

Sorry I am just so tired of seeing another new boat split the already small fleets. Seems we just can’t learn from the monohullers and stick with the tried and tested, etc. I can bet you in just a couple of years the SL16 will be just another boat of the past, and then there will be a SL16.5, or a F16 youth boat or something, or hay what about an F12, F13, F14, what about a freaking youth trimaran, or what about a kite cat, why even stop here, skies the limit or is it?

Then again maybe the ISAF will just drop the youth multihull all together, which is likely, and then what? Who knows about the Olympics when it relates to the Tornado? US Sailing is surely not behind the multihulls, no surpise there. I have already moved on to ASA and continuing with NAHCA.

My plan is to stick with the H16, Wave (see you at the next Nationals Rick), and NAHCA, and have fun with my kids, and bag the rest.

I'd really be quite curious to see whether some of you would donate to the NAYMA org (aka SL16 class) if it was the boat for the forseeable future and it wasn't doing a square dance with the omnipresent H16 from year to year.

Basically, the way I see it is that you're saying "Screw the kids (when they're not sailing hobies)" in an effort to promote your own self-serving class agenda.

Who knows, next year Art could completely revamp the site into one big H16 billboard to reflect the boat for 2009. Would that change your mind?



Then what does it matter that this new org is pushing the SL16 when its about the kids and not about the boat?



Says who? As I see it, the organization can promote any class he/she/it wants. As long as its supporting youths sailing on something with more than one hull in North America, I think its fufilling its named role. You don't have to give it money though - but I thought it was about the kids, not the boat?

Were the SL 16s donated or purchased? If donated, will Hobie step up next year? If purchased, did the manufacturer cut a deal? Was Hobie asked to participate? If they were, did they offer a discount?

What was involved in the decision making process to use SL 16s?

Donated. The decision to use the SL16 as a youth boat is a complicated one but it involves the ISAF.

I'm positive that Art's motivation is not specifically about promoting a particular boat. However, when a boat manufacturer steps up and makes a large commitment to a cause, such as this one, I imagine it's kind of hard to hide the excitement.

I gave $10 to the Hobie Youth program. Where do I send my $10 to the SL16 youth program. What is a SL16? I'm too lazy to google it right now.

Looks like a slightly modified 5.0 with a kite. I read somewhere that the minimum crew weight is 90kg. Is that possible or just wishful thinking? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

From Art's Letter:

(emphasis added)

If that's not promoting a specific class; trying to sell a specific boat, then I'm George Washington.

Look at the homepage of the SL16 Class (direct link off the NAYMA site - arrow points to the "www.sl16.org" URL):


I call shenanigans. You can call it what you want, Tad, but Art is crusading the cause of the SL16 under the guise of the "North American Youth Multihull Association". There's a name for that kind of deception - fraud.

For tax purposes, I'd like to know the EIN and name of the 501(c)3 organization for which contributions are being solicited. If they intend to collect over $25,000, I'd like to see their IRS Form 990. I'd like to see their taxonomy (the IRS reason they are tax exempt). I'd like to see their mission statement, goals and how they expect to achieve them.

Just so everybody is aware, some of the people in ISAF are not happy with the tactics used by Sirena-Voile (the European mfg of the SL16) to promote their product. For one they keep referring themselves to “preferred”, they are a preferred nothing. They are just on the ISAF equipment list. They are trying desparately to achieve ISAF recognized class status - a request that was rejected the last time they went to ISAF because they couldn't prove their presence in 4 countries on 2 continents.

I prefer to look at a situation with my eyes wide open. There's been (and still is) a political s**t fight between ISAF, Hobie and Sirena-Voile on what gets chosen for the ISAF Youth Worlds. If Art wants to do a promotional roadshow in the United States for the SL16, fine. Just call a spade a spade, Art. Don't blow smoke up my rear end and call it the "North American Youth Multihull Association" - because it isn't. Not yet, at least.

wow...such hatred and anger. Do you think this youth effort is hurting the sport or are you more angry because it doesn't support your particular brand loyalty?

That's a rhetorical question if I've ever seen one.

I don't hate Art, Jake. I'm not even angry. I'm just extremely suspicious of someone who writes a letter full of fuzzy bunnies and rainbows, then puts their hand out for money.

Call it the MBA/Accountant in me.

Art's got a lot more work to do before he convinces me that he's doing more than promoting the SL16 class in the United States - which in the long run, I can't see it helping the sport. Do we really need yet another class to further dilute our numbers?

View from an outsider, this why our sport will keep to dwindle down. Sadly anything new becomes a huge internet fight, names brands are tossed around and the Hobie edict is usually brought up.

What does it matter what boat people sail? As long as they are sailing and happy. But then again IDKS so carry on.

And what in the [sentence enhancer] is wrong with that!? His organization was GIVEN free boats from the manufacturer and you expect him to go and give press to their competitor all in the interest of fairness?

Like I said, how is the North American Youth Multihull Association committing fraud when they are putting Kids on BOATS that have more than one hull in North America?

Is it fraud to not be pushing Hobie when, as far as I can tell, the big H hasn't ponied up anything to his organization?



Oh Lord, the omnipresent H16 defenese argument?

Can you possibly, even fathom that some people DON'T like the H16?

Matt, like it or not (I'd guess "not"), the class and the mission are inexorably linked, at least for the next three years or so. I think the pissing match between members of ISAF who are Hobie sailors and the reps of Sirena (who apparently make a boat that is even less desirable to sail than the box a Nacra comes in) is flat-out silly. The Hobie class emphatically does not want a spinnaker on the 16. ISAF emphatically wants a spinnaker-rigged youth boat. Duh.

I think that, if you want additional information regarding the specifics: I'll bet you questions would get a quick answer if you popped off a note to Art or Rich Brew. I've seen the details - there's nothing nefarious going on. But don't take my word for it Mr. Stone. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The Hobie youth grants, according to Bob M., don't always get spent. Along with a Hobie youth, I made a couple of suggestions about how some grant money could go toward putting this kid on a Tiger for F18s. That was not well received, which is none of my business since I let my HCA membership lapse. The HCA youth program, while laudable, is not the same thing as what Art is trying to get set up - they are looking at a direct feeder into ISAF and Olympic events in response to the recent Olympic Event Selection bru-ha-ha.

Your post's tone is pretty harsh - if someone had made that post on the Hobie Forum, demanding financial details, etc., from HCA, I suspect you'd be in line to vociferously defend HCA. Just look at it in that light for a moment. Its not like Art hasn't worked with HCA and Hobie Cat USA plenty of times before. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Who's he owe his allegiance to? The donor?

Shouldn't he be fair to the kids? To make them aware of all the multihull opportunities available to them?



When he does it to the exclusion of all other programs (other than his own).



Why would they, when he is promoting a single product? Hobie Cat has given (and continues to give) a significant amount of $ to the HCA, some of which is directed to the youth programs. They've contibuted a lot in the past - how about the provided boats at the 2004 Alter Cup and the US Multihull Championship in Seacliff, NY?



Your words, not mine. I never mentioned the H-16. In fact, I don't want the H-16 w/spin to ever catch hold in this part of the world.

I will repeat the thrust of my arguement for those who continue to try to make this a SL16 vs. Hobie pissing match:

The NAYMA is not living up to their name by promoting a single catamaran class and a single program to the exclusion of all others. By all appearances, it is a personal crusade to promote the SL16 in the United States.

Let's get this straight - I DON'T CARE IF THE SL16 IS PROMOTED IN THE US - but don't con me into giving you a donation by naming your organization to imply it supports Youth Multihull Sailing in all of North America.

If thats the way you see it, then you're looking at this whole thing through a very Hobie-tinted myopic view. Its living up to its name just fine, its just that its not pushing the Hobie Class Agenda.

If you give money to any organization based on just the "name" and don't do your research into the organization first, then, I have a bridge....blah blah blah.



Again, I still don't see how Youth Multhull Association has to implicitly support every class that pops up for youths.

Ok I don’t get it why you all do not support the H16 as the youth boat and as a class in general. The H16 is available everywhere used, they are available new on 4-5 continents (US, Europe, Australia, Brazil, and I think in S. Africa), raced very actively world wide (World Championships and National events which have been well attended for over 30 years, plus the boat is in the PanAm Games), and so on. So am I missing something here? Why is it that you all are not backing the H16. I believe any rational sailing community that had such a successful racing and recreational class would be ecstatic but all you people can do is try and kill it (not going to happen by the way). It’s like you are shooting yourself in the foot but just can’t feel the pain because of your blind hatred for your foot. I don’t get it but I am sure you can bash away why you don’t support the H16 class, honestly I don’t really care anymore. And this crap that kids don’t like the H16 is bull and the ISAF selection was not about what the kids wanted but what the manufacture and the ISAF officials worked out.

You are kidding, right? First, use your real username rather than a newly-created alt. Second, this has nothing to do with a bias for or against the Hobie 16. Efforts (on either side) to make it so are counterproductive.

Facts: ISAF wants a spin-rigged youth boat. Hobie 16 class does not want to become a spin-rigged boat. Hobie youth sailing is in NO DANGER of becoming extinct or threatened - HCA will keep doing what they are doing, and fair winds.

pot-stirrer... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

This argument is going to spin in about 6 different directions...

The spinnaker is quickly gaining momentum with the dingy youth crowd (29'er, 420, etc) and some feel that we need a youth catamaran that, when placed beside a 29'er, looks relative and modern and fast. This also has implications into what was happening with the US Sailing bid claiming that we don't have any up and comers who show potential toward a multihull Olympic class....without a youth boat with spinnaker, our highly talented youth sailors are going to continued to be viewed as not-so-modern and not given much credit for their accomplishments toward Olympic aspirations if they aren't sailing a boat that shares some similarity. It's not an insult to the H16.

Art has busted his tail and dedicated countless hours, days, weeks, and months putting together the US Sailing youth program that we have today and he has a lot of clear and strong positives to his credit. I know Art enough to know that his motivations are true and honestly focused on building a strong youth program.

Matt, in hindsight your post should have been handled privately, and for you to call Tad's post juvenile is quite the "pot calling the kettle black". This is a new day, and any effort by any manufacturer to bring kids into this sport should be applauded, not slapped down because its not your "brand". Hobie also gets applause for ALL they have done over the many years of this sport, but I give you a big Boo for bringing this brand name mudslinging into the public eye. I think you may even owe Art an apology for ruining his post.

No argument there - I whole-heartedly agree.

Art also wrote (in response to Dermot, way back up the thread):

(again, emphasis added)

Then why does his site only promote the SL16?

I'm not slapping Art down - I'm insisting that he live up to his own words.

I don't care whether he has Hobie, F-16, Mystere 4.3 or that weird inflatable "Skippy" thing on his website, but to exclusively promote one brand of catamaran for youths smells an awful lot like a sales pitch in the guise of a non-profit program.

**I** was not the one that brought up the brand name mudslinging into this thread. You can thank Mr. Pecorak for initiating that.

After donating five boats you'd think there must be some kind of payoff for the company in the form of advertising and endorsments. I have no idea what an SL16 goes for so let's round it off to $50K for five boats. For that kinda money it's very reasonable to expect Art to push SL16s.

If the program is successful for the kids improving their skill levels and the manufacturer selling more boats, will Hobie and others be interested in donating next year? Sirena has done the marketing research for them. If Art's program works he may be in a position to take boats and other equipment as donations in exchange for endorsements. His program could become self substaining.

If Hobie US were to supply two new Tigers for Team Seacats racing, you bet your [sentence enhancer] that the Hobie logo would be promoted in every nook and cranny of www.teamseacats.com - I just don't see a problem with this youth initiative doing the same thing.

*cough*



*gasp* !!!



I think my goat could even read between these lines... Mr. Bounds.


Basically your whole post that STARTED this whole "mudslinging" is quoted up there for what it is. All if it before I even touched the fingerboard.

And you're trying to pin the whole "brand name mud slinging" thing on me? Please.

Also, you can stop using my real name. Now.

It is too bad all this energy is not directed to the real goal of getting more Youth sailing multihulls and building Youth Programs. When Gordon Isco, then Chair of the US SAILING Multihull Council set up the Fast and Fun program with assistance from Hobie Cat Co. the goal was to promote Catamaran Sailing, and to get people on the water. Go to the following site to see the pictures and read the success of this program http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm
Art Stevens took this program to the next level, as noted and even was driving the rig to the locations in 2003. Unfortunately this programed did not have enough support and was discontinued in 2004. Several Community Sailing Centers, including Sail Sand Point in Seattle have kept the Fast and Fun free sailing program going, and have benefited from this effort. Fast and Fun is promoted at all the US SAILING meetings in both the Multhull and Community Sailing Councils. That is also why this link continues to be on the Multihull Council website. As an example, on May 5, we will have our third annual Fast and Fun in Kirkland on Lake Washington. We have signed an agreement with the City of Kirkland to expand our Sail Sand Point program to also offer classes at Juanita Beach in Kirkland this year, partly due to this program. See www.sailsandpoint.org.

Art is also the Chair of the US SAILING Youth Multihull Committee that conducts the annual national championship, see http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/

As noted on the webpage, the manufactures of multihulls are requested to submit their proposals to be selected to provide the boats for this event. This is the same as the proceedure for the Hobie Alter Cup. If you look at the past selection of boats for both events, you will see it does include several different manufacturers.

Looking at the list of individual donors for NAYMA at www.nayma.org, you will see the same list of dedicated volunteers from the Multihull Council, Art Stevens, his son Wade, Gordon Isco, Darline Hobock, and Rich Brew. These people have all spent countless hours promoting Youth Progams and now additional resources to help get this new program going. As noted the program does give considerable credit and exposure to Performance Catamaran and the SL16. Also consider their investment in this program. We should wish them well on this program. As noted, several locations have already signed on to take advantage of this new ventue.

Like any program, it is up to us the individual Catamaran Sailors to select which program we will support. The important decision we need to make is to step up, volunteer, and take part for the sake of our future.

Caleb Tarleton

Sorry - didn't mean to out you and the goat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The goat is sensitive ok? He's got stalkers and such. I've got to keep paying the security company for his bodyguard, armored car, background checks, etc... its all putting a huge dent in my sailing budget. Maybe Dave had the right idea in just dragging it behind the boat.

Just, remember the goats.

I wish I had a goat.

But thank you anyway Matt. Now I can google "my friend" and do some reading up on him. Only cowards use fake names.

Wouter

Read all you like. I have nothing to hide. I just prefer that people I haven't met IRL not use my real name.

I haven't made any kind of effort to conceal my real identity. I simply asked someone that I *don't know* to stop using my real name.



Don't we all?

Hi, My name is Chris Wessels (I don't get the secret name thing yet, is there some reason we're not supposed to know who is who?) Pretty funny thread. My kids all race, 2 youth H16 and an Opti guy. They just like to get out there and bump heads and beat up on the weak. They sail the Hobie, because thats what we have, but they'd sail whatever to get out and go. Funny thing is, they rarely hear about anything else besides the Hobie events. They are good too, my 16 year old son and 15 year old daughter can be good competetion for most A fleeters out there, but yet they almost never hear or get invited to ANY thing other that Hobie stuff. My kids can sail an F-18, Sl-16, Hobie 20, whatever.....but never get asked. SO, my question is: What the hell is this youth multihull association doing to market? When we here, who live somewhere other than Florida or LA, have TONS of great sailors who just sit and wonder why they don't feel the love? Explain that.

Why not?

Well, I should say NAYMA should support youth EVENTS, not classes per se.

Is he being stalked by that Gyro truck again? Man, you need to move to FL.

And I'm sorry I don't have a goat. Oh, wait... That's the OTHER thread...

Hey guys send or dont send your money but be fair some lucky clubs are going to have brand new cats turn up for their youth to use for FREEEEEEE. The kids can then decide what they want to sail. If some company gave me 5 boats to use I would promote them vigorously as well, what a strange idea that you have to promote the other brands that exclude you from competition to call your organisation any name <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. Well done to all involved in organising this youth initiative and keep me posted. Those that dont like the idea know which thread to ignore.
regards

What I'm saying is that the organization, under whoever's leadership, should be free to persue a course of action that it believes would lead to greater numbers of young sailors on multihulls. If that means choosing a single class and attempting to reign in all the participants under a standardized umbrella, then it should be able to do so without being harangued for having some perceived alternative, nefarious agenda.

I'm pretty sure Im going to win the lottery this week, after that Im going to pay off the house and cars, and quit my job.

Now that Im bored, Im going to volunteer my time and try to promote youth sailing in the US.

First Ill start a group with a cool name, maybe the "North American Youth Multihull Association". It will problably just be US sailors, but North American sounds cooler.

Now, I need to save some of my lottery money to live off of, so in order to get boats Ill go ask around and see if anyone will donate any to my cause. I very much doubt anyone will as catamaran sailing is such a small market, manufacturers arn't exactly getting rich, but Ill ask anyway.

If someone does give me boats for free, Ill be really excited, and will do my best to promote them as much as I can.

Now, I may not be politically correct in how I promote my group, and I may not ever accomplish or represent everything I say I will, but Im volunteering my time and making an effort in an area where so little exists.

Art, cheers to you for all your current and past efforts! You stand apart as one of those individual few that not only talks about doing something, you actually do it. And what, you didn't win the lottery?

**Mary - I took out that last part for you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And some "Spicy Sentence Enhancers" as well.

Good work. The goat herder will be piping up shortly.

North American does NOT sound cooler to me. If I am sending money to this organization, I want to know whether it is going to go to support youth sailing just in the U.S. or also in Canada, Mexico, and who knows what other countries are included in "North America."

NAYRU went out of existence a long time ago and became USYRU, which is now USSA. Organizations that are trying to help people in sailing in the United States should say "United States" in their name, to parallel and comply with US Sailing. This applies to NAMSA and now to NAYMA.

When this thread started, I actually wondered how long it would take to degenerate into a fight. Seems like that happens so often with these kinds of threads. Too much tribalism to consider the bigger picture...

Here's my take: More power to Art for doing SOMETHING. More power to anyone else who puts together something with any other cat platform as well. And more power to anyone who invites a neighborhood kid along, etc., to spread cat sailing in a less organizationed way. In the meantime, why throw mud on someone else who is choosing to do it a different way? As long as more kids are exposed to cat sailing, what's the difference?

So are you saying you will donate to US only organizations and will not donate organizations that include other North American countries? I can understand shutting out the Candians, but our friends to the south, that's just mean.

You're on a roll today, Ding. You been drinkin' that goat milk?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Why should we be giving money that could be supporting youth sailors in other countries who would be competing against the youth sailors from our country on the world level? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Guess it just depends on which border you live near. If we were to cut out the Canadians from our HCA Div 4, we would loose one third of our regattas and sailors. Not good Eh?















Guess it depends which border you live near. If we cut out the Canadians from HCA Div. 4 we would loose a third of our Fleet, sailing regattas, and sailing friends. No good Eh?

No opinion, I was just looking for a way to take a shot at the Canadians.

Besides isn't this all moot, aren't we all dead in a decade because of global warming?

Mary, in our case, the strong youth programs in Canada do help grow our programs in the US. They come here and we go there for Regattas. This is true not only in the Hobie Cat Association events, but all monohull programs as well. Plus they are fun people, and have great parties.

Many of our North American Events are held in Canada, and we are looking forward to many more in the future.

Caleb

yes, competition..bad.. I thought that the goal was just to get KIDS sailing not just black kids or white kids or US kids.

ya you guys in florida will be crying to get into canada in 50 years...ha.

Wait...Art won the lottery?

Chris, instead of waiting for someone to bring it to you, you have to get involved. I bet you would probably even get some activity by just asking for it too. There are shockingly few people making these things move forward and they can't cover every inch of the entire country.

Secondly, it's not like there is some big alternative organization running races in the US. Chances are that you live an area where the HCA is pretty dominant.

Chris is VERY involved in the sport, and promoting the sport. You can blame him, and the rag tag group he hangs around with for bringing many people in. He's one of the people making things move forward, and covering his few inches of the country. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I can't wait.

I'll finally get a chance to spend all the [sentence enhancer] Canadian change I get stuck with. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Global warming is a fad. We will all be alive and well and everyone will be sailing F16s in a decade.

That is not what I am talking about. Obviously, regattas should be inclusive to kids from other countries. And I am not talking about the Hobie Class Association of North America, because that is a regional organization under ISAF and they hold Continental Championships rather than National Championships.

I am just not clear about the interrelationships among:
1. Art's program, which he says is specifically targeted to U.S. youth sailors; and
2. NAYMA, which by its name, implies it covers all of North America (whatever that means, and it should be defined); and
3. The SL16 Class Association; and
4. Performance Catamarans, manufacturer of the SL16.

Caleb, you said Canada has strong youth programs. Well, the United States has never had a cohesive, ongoing developmental and training program for its youth multihull sailors. That is what Art is trying to implement.

If Canada wants to have a similar program to get SL16's distributed around the country to provide training on that boat for its youth sailors, I am sure somebody in Canada could work out a similar arrangement with Performance Catamarans. That would be great, because then the U.S. kids could race and train with and against the Canadian kids on the SL16's, which have already been anointed by ISAF to eventually totally replace the Hobie 16 as the youth catamaran, as soon as there are enough of them around the world.

As far as the Hobie 16, right now there are no places I am aware of in the United States that have Hobie 16's equipped with spinnakers for our youth sailors to train on. This has been a major problem for our youth sailors when they go to the ISAF Youth Worlds.

Thanks to Art's program, and with the help from Performance Catamarans, hopefully there soon WILL be places around the United States with spinnaker-equipped catamarans for our youth sailors to train on.

If Hobie Cat Company wants to get involved in the same way by providing Hobie 16's with spinnakers, at a discount to the same places that are going to buy one or more SL16's, that would be great, because then the kids would get a chance to learn both boats while both are still in play for the international events.

All I am saying is that I would like the above relationships clarified so if I donate to the cause, I know my money is going ONLY to develop this program for ONLY U.S. sailors, to help get boats accessible to them, and to help them to be able to go events in Europe.

It is very important that we create what US Sailing refers to as a "pipeline" to the Olympics for youth multihull sailors, so that we will have some credibility with US Sailing and get invited to JO festivals. We need to show that we are making a concerted effort to produce viable Olympic candidates for the Olympic multihull event so US Sailing doesn't think they have to bump the multihull event off their list for the Olympics.

Second that...the boats Art is pimping have two hulls, that's a good thing and is all that should matter. Whatever works in your geographic area is a very good thing.

Organizations bringing boats to venues or sponsoring getting kids to events is fantastic, period

The fact that boats with three sails aren't a fad and the lack of a youth catamaran in some geographic areas is another totally different subject. If the way to the Olymipic ranks through a local Hobie fleet is 16, Tiger, then Tornado, so be it. Why poo-poo another "way"?

Jake,
I am really not a 'sit on the sidelines' kind of guy. I have my hand in EVERYTHING to do with the sport in the midwest. I am just saying, that we never hear of jack squat out here in the midwest about youth multihull stuff, and I guess I am saying, that there is a ton of people that are being over looked and not sought out by those organizers. I think you'd find the numbers to be higher if they just started looking for sailors that already exist.....get what I mean? But as far as my lack on involvement, thats not the case.

I don't know what you mean about "if they just started looking for sailors." If you belong to HCA and get the Hobie Hotline, you know about all the Hobie events. If you subscribe to "Catamaran Sailor," you hear about pretty much all of the events in the country (and the event list is free for everybody to view on our website.) And you don't even have to belong to US Sailing to go to their web site and find out about all the youth events offered through them, including the U.S. Youth Multihull Championship.

I'm sorry if you feel overlooked and left out, but what more can people do to let you know what is going on? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It is interesting to look at what the Canadian Yachting Association does in terms of youth sailors, and the fact that their program includes "Multihull." Check it out.
http://www.sailing.ca/youth/initiatives/index.asp

That is not the case in the United States. I hope it can happen as a result of Art's program.

Mary:

When Arthur sent me this, he said nothing about the other organization. I only saw it in other thread. I think he is basically try to help youth sailors. Yes I agree that all links should be on that site and not just Nacra and SL-16 organization. Hopefully we can all band together.

Doug

Here is what he sent:

Hi Doug:
I didn't see your response because it was at the end of the message, sorry. Anyway you wrote:
So how many boats? What kind? When will they be in our area? I need more
info
1. We have 5 new Sl16's in the tractor trailer for your event.
2. We are open to schedule events to what ever is the best sailing weather in your area. Your decision and coordination is necessary with other clubs in
the area.
3. Our plan is to have you invite as many sailors as possible that sail catamarans, laser, 420's, 29er etc.
We will have round robin racing for two days with a clinic maybe Friday evening/Sat morning. Get kids familiar
with the new boat and then race as much as we can through Sun afternoon.
4. You might have to house and feed kids. Kids don't have cars and can't stay by themselves in a hotel. You can expect kids to come from other areas
so airport runs might happen as well. Dallas comes to mind as an example. When kids find out this is in Texas you will see them flying in.
5. You should collect a $250 damage deposit just like they all do now for their 420 Vanguard regattas.
6. Charge an entry fee and we propose $100 each kid. That breaks down to $50 per day each for use of the supplied boats. Kids/parants are used to paying these kids of fees and more.
7. Get sponsors to help offset the regatta costs.
8. We will supply round robin computer scoring unless you already have that.
9. We need to offset the cost of fuel for our tractor trailer so we are asking for your committee to plan for maybe 20 kids/10 teams.
This would bring in $2,000 which we should get $1,500 to pay for our cost to get to Huston. We would hope for more becaue that doesn't really cover it so if
sponsors are interested , that makes it better. We are trying to be cost neutral but don't expect that to happen for several years.
As the program grows we will have more interest therefore more revenue and more venues.
10. We are getting regatta insurance to cover liability which is a must for a kid program.

So you need to figure out a venue, time to hold the regatta, supply kids, PRO,judges, marks, chase/safety boats and all the stuff associated with having
a great time sailing .I know it all sounds like a big deal and it is but the fun and exposure is well worth the effort.

Best regards,
AJS
310-245-0614

You already posted that earlier in this thread. It's not really relevant to what I am talking about. He is just telling you the details for hosting one of his events.

Mary, thanks for posting the CYA link. CYA is the counter part to our US SAILING. We do have similar programs see http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/ and http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/ What we seem to lack is direct participation in US SAILING from our multihull sailors. The turn out at the US SAILING AGM's and participation is really quite limited. Getting the local sailors to attend has even been a problem. Just look at the Multihull Council link on your forum to see the action. When you review the 2012 decision and even the support for Youth Multihull programs you see the results. I still think it is the Pogo Syndrome, "We have found the Enemy, and He is Us". Unless people step up, take part, and participate, change will not occur.

Caleb Tarleton

Caleb is absolutely correct here. The enemy is ourselves

How about this idea.

Perhaps we could boot strap a coherent program using the resources of 4 or 5 clubs around the USA.

Forget about the equipment issue. What if we identified a club on each of the three coasts and great lakes. These clubs would run a 3 or 4 day program twice a year where a training camp with coaching occured followed by a junior regatta. Qaulified Junior sailors and teams would get to the club for the training and coaching and use boats provided by the club. (If a junior team had their own boat and could bring it... great.. the program would get bigger.)

This development program would underlie the Hobie 16 Junior Nationals and the SL16 Junior nationals and any other class which could support a junior event.

(I bet if the F18 class made 5 boats available for an F18 Junior nationals... it would be VERY popular!)

The layer above these natinoal events would be US Sailing sanctioned feeder events for the ISAF worlds.

We already have some of the peices... we simply need to give up what holds us back and build and promote the programs locally and regionally.

This is not a LEARN TO SAIL or Introduce catamarans to junior sailors... This should be a serious focus on training to race performance boats.

If a 29ner team wants to commit to a muiltihull for a camp.. Perfect... trust the dark side to win out! We want sailors and their families who will commit time and money to the sport... They will only do this when we get our crap together and build a legit program at all of the levels we need.

Caleb,
I don't know about the "pogo syndrome," but it is definitely a "chicken-and-egg syndrome." When people have something tangible to support, they step up and support it and get involved. But in the past 20+ years since the Multihull Council was formed, there has been nothing but talk, because the Multihull Council is not empowered to actually DO anything. So why go to meetings?

Art Stevens is the only person who has actually managed to DO anything. The Fast-and-Fun program introduced thousands of children to catamarans all over the country. I know at some stops he had a hard time getting local cat sailors to show up to help him out with the program.

Now he is taking it up a big notch, and it will be interesting to see how much support he gets from the catamaran community.

I assume he is going to concentrate on bringing his program to yacht clubs, where the members are accustomed to the kinds of costs and logistics it takes to put on an event like he is talking about. And he needs to concentrate on places that can afford to buy one or more SL16's to provide ongoing training on multihulls.

If we can get cats into youth programs at yacht clubs, it will be a major breakthrough. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

what is cost comparison:
putting kids into soccer or other school-sponsored sports
putting kids into sailing programs (incl buying boat)

What is return on same? I can't think of any sailing scholarships out there, but there are certainly plenty of football/soccer/etc scholarships...

Consider, and you might answer your own questions regarding lack of interest...

There is no problem with lack of interest. There is an abundance of interest. Everybody agrees that youth sailing is important and we have to do something to increase it. Every time there is a thread on this forum about youth sailing, everybody is all excited about it. "Yay, rah, let's do it!"

The problem comes with the "doing" part.

Obviously, most people can't afford to go out and buy an SL16 or even a Hobie 16 just for their kids to sail.

That's why it is important to have places around the country that have these boats available for kids to practice on at reasonable prices -- or at yacht clubs where multihulls are part of the junior programs.

Pogo was one of the all time best comic strips. see http://www.pogopossum.com/books3.htm BTW, the correct quote was "We have met the enemy and he is us" Walt Kelly was a great writer and political commentator, scan the webpage, and you will find it interesting.

As mentioned before, Fast and Fun, see http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm continues to be an important program for us locally. Our next one is May 5 in Kirkland. Many of our volunteer sailors that help run this event are our Youth Sailors from Sail Sand Point, including sailors that participated in the US Youth Multihull Championship this year. How many local Sailing Centers are continuing this free outreach program? Another great way to encourage and develop Youth Multihull sailors.

Caleb

Since the Alter Cup this year is on SL16, why not alert the youth community that they will be for sale after the event(s), and perhaps the builder will discount them if they are to be used for the youth racing fleet?

And all those dudes who bought them to train on could do the same?

I sold my N20 at a reasonably affordable price to build the racing fleet. I think most others would do the same.

It's incredible sometimes the frugality of the cat sailor. We may gasp at the thought of paying something like $400 a year to trailer in to a yacht club and race once a week for the season. But this is where we, cat sailors, need to be. Can a person make a season of bowling on $400?

And with the kids, what if the kid was a really good baseball player? Then there'd be trips to tournaments all over the country.

Remember the comment here said of one Yacht club, "This is a nice place...you guys (meaning the cat sailors) should take it over"

The Alter Cup is not on the SL16, but rather the F16 (Blade). They are different boats.

There are quite a few schools that offer sailing scholarships in fact.

I knew that when we sailed against College of Charleston, they recruited sailors like my school recruited basketball players. I know schools like Tufts, Brown, St. Mary's that take their sailing seriously offer a limited amount of scholarship for sailing.

However, the amount of scholarships that are offerred nationwide should not be a factor when deciding whether or not to support Art's program.



Alter Cup is on F16's. I *think* the SL16 conforms to F16 class rules, but the Blades used at AC would not be SL16 class legal.

Why isn't this sport seeing the numbers it did in the 70's and 80's? I'm not talking just youth either. Most of the boats aren't that expensive new, and used boats are really affordable. Granted it's mostly hobies that fit in that catagory, but they also aren't the most hi-tech. Maybe instead of trying to support just youth multihull sailing, more has to be done to increase the numbers across the board. Get more adults and the children will follow? It seems to me that this sport is slowly dying. Why?

I don't know what scholarships and the Alter Cup and F16's have to do with this thread. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mary:

That is why we are working with GBCA, HYC & Lakewood Yacht Club through contacts. They already have youth programs, PRO, marks, chase boats, inc. Much easier to incorporate and they are excited about expanding youth programs together. I agree it doesn't matter the boat or the organization, we just need to get the youth involved to save the sport in any way we can. That is one of the reason I give rides when the Sea Scouts come down to the dike.

Doug

Exactly!

I never thought of suscribing to catsailor, good idea.

It's a lifestyle thing. Here in Oz and I suspect the US also, the emphasis on materialism has increased and the focus has shifted away from recreational stuff to things more simbolic of affluence like bigger much more expensive houses and bigger more expensive cars. These have to be paid for so ppl are working longer hours with little time for recreation.
Also, shopping here in Oz is the most participated in passtime. The shopping Malls are full and the lakes are empty.

How depressing! I can't even remember the last time I was in a shopping mall. I thought only teenagers went to malls.
But, wait! That's what this thread is about! So if we want to get teenagers for sailing, we need to go to the malls and round them up. Great idea, Berny! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Doug and everyone else

Saving the sport through junior sailing... is fine... but it is NOT the issue or what this particular program is about. Community sailing programs with cats, sea scouts, junior summer camps, etc etc address this goal. Hell ...DEALERS need to address this to have a market to sell to... God love you for working at this. BUT !!!

We need to focus our resources and energy!... we can't afford to build this huge program that serves any kid and hope that elite sailors emerge. (We have not done this already.... why should things change now)

Hell will freeze over before we have numbers which match the number of kids sailing 420's or lasers... Moreover, We don't have the option of drawing on a large pyramid base of junior sailors right now either. We need a new approach. We are out of time... We must focus!

We should be about a FOCUSED EFFORT TO BUILD A TRAINING PIPELINE for serious junor sailors... Its not little league!... its for 21 and unders who are committed to racing excellence... (think of AAU basketball) (The program may be their first exposure to a catamaran after years of racing lasers or 420's)

Your own kid may not want to race this seriously.... BUT other kids do want this for themsleves. ... We know that we have huge programs of junior boys and girls who are really working at their laser and 420 racing.... some places even have 29ner programs. We must have a catamaran option for these sailors! TRUST THE DARK SIDE TO WIN HERE!

We have virtually nothing programatic going on at this level ... The hobie class 16 junior program is terrific for what it is. ... BUT IT DOESN"T CUT IT!
(See Matt Bounds answer to my early post as to what the program entails)

Who said it does not cut it? ... the US Olympic Sailing coaches.

My attempt to lend some Hobie 16's to junior sailors in CBYRA... DOES NOT CUT IT either!

We have been found out!... Bodie and Brenner are right that we have no program... (Theyu are completely wrong that we have no sailors in spite of our non program)

The only ones who can fix the problem are ourselves and so now we are faced with... what the hell are we going to do?

What is our program?.., Two national events??? Without a national program, what parent would support their kid in racing a catamaran...its just screwing around in a toy boat if we keep to our existing program.

So we need to BUILD A PIPE (regional training camps like CISA ) .... Assemble the peices... (Junior National Regattas)... Together these elements = a PIPELINE... Fill the pipeline with Racers ... Its a CATAMARAN DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM.

If we do this right... perhaps they have the training coupled with their ability to compete on the world stage.

This is fish or cut bait time folks. If you have a different vision... Now is the time to put it out there! ...we can debate it.. modify it... adapt it.... build on the Hobie model... build on the Sl16 model... merge... layer... Lots of possibiltiies.

Great idea, wrong boat. Alter Cup is on Blade F-16s.

Here is what I am doing in my area:

First I am a dealer for Hobie, Catalina and other boat lines. I have contracts with 3 resorts and the Girl and Boy Scouts. Plus I run a cruise business with an R33 and rent a C22 (the local college rents Waves and Vanguards). In addition to all this I run youth and adult sailing programs on Wave’s & Open Bics, plus Access Dinghies for those with disAbilities. We also just got are local Hobie Fleet going and we focus on H16’s and Islands (that’s right Islands; we already have a fleet of them). We are more focused in our fleet on the NAHCA events so we don’t really pay attention to US Sailing or the ISAF, and we don’t care what they think or want. Several of our members just bought new H16’s and we have a good size fleet of older H16’s. As you can imagine I am very busy with all this but it is all scheduled in and is working well. At some point I will be purchasing a couple new H16’s for our fleet so more of our youth can race on new boats. Basically our path is to get our youth to the Hobie Nationals and on to the H16 worlds.

I had Art come to our program for 3 straight years and have continued the “fast n fun” program here like in Seattle. We are really not interested in of course bringing SL16’s to our program sense we are a Hobie fleet and have our plan already set but I think its great for the manufacture of the SL16 and Art, I wish them the best.

Year after year I find my kids and the other youth want to simply have some fun racing and flirting. Several of our kids want to go to Ricks Wave World event. And again we are working hard to some day go to the H16 worlds. I find it funny that some people think the H16 is not good enough for the ISAF youth worlds but then I looks at the old monohull designs currently being used and all I can say is whatever. There are a lot of hands and attitudes related to the Olympics, US Sailing, and the ISAF and I really do not want any part of it. I am not saying those that do want a part in it have a problem; I am just saying I do not have the time to deal with the attitudes, changes in boat selections, etc. I want the kids in my programs to have fun, learn good life time rec. skills, and go on as happy people. Plus turning up the heat to become some world class sailor is not what many people want and want to spend their hard earned money on. I have wanted to go to the H16 worlds for most of my life and have yet to do so because of many factors, one of which was commitments to more important things in life, but even so finally I will be going I believe in the next couple of years, my wife is going to stick me in a suit case and send me.

Also many of my youth sailors are in other sports such as soccer, etc. Parents are not going to spend a lot of money on boats and gear. They will however buy a boat they can use and their kids can race, this is a consistent theme in my sales, VERSATILITY.

Guys what I think is going to happen here with this effort is you’ll love the SL16 for a while and the move on to another boat in a few years, and then to another, and so on. I have always believed consistency is best and sticking with one design over the years is best even though I know you all will not agree. I am certainly not going to tell my club member hay a new boat is out now its time to move to that, oh and by the way its now 2010 and there is another new boat out, now you need to go to that boat. Sorry consistency is where it is at and the SL16 is not going to be a consistent and stable future.

Again I wish Art and the SL16 manufacture all the best with their selling program.

Where are you located?

I may be able to reassure some people here. The F16 will never be a youth boat, neither will the F12 replace the SL16 as the best boat to prepare the youths to become champions in the Olympic Tornado, F18 or A-cat. And lets face it guys, the Hobie 16 will never be the Olympic catamaran, nor the wave or its competitor F12 if that ever gets off the ground.

Personally I think the Hobie 16 folks have burned their own house. First they refuse to have spinnakers on their boats in any shape or form and pretty much ostrasize any H16 with spi. And now that some other builder has jumped into the gap that the H16 guys left open they scream murder and rape about being displaced as the preferred youth boat.

Personally the Hobie 16 is not a good lead-up to the tornado, F18 or even the A-cat. Just as much as a laser-1 isn't to the 49-er. That is the truth.

Another harsh truth is that the EUROPEAN Hobie 16 class is nowhere near its former strength. As EU is increasingly the more important area in sailing we'll find that the days of the Hobie 16 as the youth boat are numbered. We may see a few flare-ups here and there, but that will be all, the end result is not in any doubt.

Personally I feel the Hobie 16 posters have given Art a pretty rough ride. For Gods sake this guy has achieved something special and all we hear is whining how it doesn't do proper credit to the religious icon of catsailing. How about giving Art and his team the credit they deserve ? Without their efforts you can forget about any championship chances of US teams as all EU teams are exclusively sailing spinnaker youth boats. Meaning they got heaps of spi experience by the time they enter the championship.

Plus why don't we see the two programs as complementary. The H16 initiatives are very important in growing the sport of catamaran sailing to youths and great work is done there. Eventually from this pool a selection of talented sailors will come forward and these can then be properly trained on Arts SL16's. The way I see it this is an excellent 2-stage rocket.

But you have to stop saying things like :"in just a couple of years the SL16 will be just another boat of the past". You may be proven wrong in this and it surely degrades all the efforts made by the team around Art. Nobody is helped by that.

Wouter

It is my opinion that the sport is slowly dying due to competition from Jet Ski's and other new pass-times. And you will remember that back in the mid 70's there was an Oil Embargo here in the USA, which put gasoline at very high prices, and the Hobie Cats had just come out. So lots of people wanted to get in on this "New, exciting, way to have fun in the water" without waiting in long lines on odd numbered days to buy gasoline.

But it's not just that, back then, there were no cell phones, computers, game boys or even Cable TV. Thus you had about no in-home entertainment for the kids, so you took them to the beach in the summer. Now a days, kids stay in the nice airconditioned safety of their own bedrooms all summer, chatting online to adult pediphiles posing as 15 yr. old friends on My Space.

And, their parrents are too busy working two jobs to pay for the BMW, or conducting business 24-7 via cell phone and lap-top, to take them to the beach. They would much rather drop them at the local Yacth Club (if there is one) to sail Opti's all day. And much of what used to be public beach back in the 70's, is now private, no access beach.

It's a different world out there. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

On the whole Hobie 16 youth boat issue, I think that boat has probably turned many mono sailors away from cats, as it did me. Back in the late 70's I was racing 505's, every time I saw a H16 it was either upside down or just reaching back and forth. I guess the sailors I saw were not too good because we had no trouble passing them upwind and down.

It was not until many years later (1996?) that I got a ride on a Hobie 20, then I found out what a catamaran could be. And once I got a hold of a spinnaker cat, well, that was it. Good bye monohulls forever! But that was just a few years ago, and the Hobie 16 has been around for what, 30+ years? It's a great boat when it's blowing 20 but how often is that?

The complaint I hear from kids on the 16 is, "It's hard to tack..." Yeah, well you have to learn how to do it!

On the upside, there are lots of H16's everywhere you look. It shouldn't be too hard to get one into a kid's program. On the downside, most of the Opti kids and instructors don't know how to rig or sail them.

I was at a US Sailing Center with my kids last summer, there were 3 Hobie 16's sitting in the grass, the 50 kids were out sailing Optis, Lasers and 420's. When I asked why no kids were sailing the Hobies, the adult said, "Nobody knows how..." I offerd to show them, they said no thanks. I asked if I could rent one and sail it with my kids, they said no.

Nice way to get people involved. Way to go US Sailing. You wonder why it's dying? That's why.

A Very good question, the answer is a bit multifaceted in my opinion.
Times have changed, people have changed. In the 70's/80's Hobie's were THE Fad. They were colorful and exciting, and they were in Magazine Ads, on television shows, heck there were even movies where a Hobie cat was the central character. (Anyone remember the movie "Thin Ice" with Kate Jackson?)
Almost everyone knew what a Catamaran was, or had at least seen one. Those days are gone. Back then baby boomers were a bit more footloose and fancy free, and had time and money to spend. In today's world of two family incomes, latchkey kids, and parents trying to find activities to keep the kidlets out of trouble on weekdays until they get home from work, there isn't TIME to spend getting ready for weekends sailing.
I think back to all the time my mother spent getting the family ready to go to the lake for the weekend. and then cleaning up the gear afterwards and packing it back up for the next weekend. Then I think about my daughter trying to do the same thing for her family and I don't see how she could do it.
Then I also remember that we did a lot of sailing when I was a kid at the local Yacht Club.
Catamaran Sailors are by and large a nomadic bunch of folks. We were shunned by yacht clubs for many years, and as a result, we, as a group, became independent as a hog on ice. We hold many of our events at venues and locations that are known only to us, and those that can find our schedules and our NOR's
NOW, we spend so much time and energy pissing in one another's Wheatie's, arguing about brand loyalty, anyone that IS interested in getting into catamaran sailing, is quickly put off by the infighting.
As someone else opinioned, "Pogo Syndrome"

Stephen
H-18

All I know is that the numbers of youth sailors seem to keep increasing at a fairly dramatic rate -- seems like every year a new record is set for the major youth regattas -- in all categories except multihull. That's because there IS no multihull category.

Art's initiative is designed to change that and get multihulls involved in the mainstream of the youth sailing boom that is currently going on.

Jake et.al,

My mistake on the Alter Cup boat selection. Don't know what an SL16 is, and mistook it for an F16.

Youth Events for 2007 are now posted on the website, see http://www.nayma.org/ To add your event, contact Darline Hobock as noted on the website.

Caleb Tarleton

So is everyhting cool now? Are we working things out?

Doug

This the the boat: http://sl16.org/index.html Not promoting it, just answered your question. I want a Blade.

Doug

Doug

Pssst, the numbers keep increasing because there is exactly the same number of youth ages 7 to 24 as the baby boomer generation, 77 million.

The teens and 20's of this century could be just like the 70's and 80's of the last.

Mark stated it already
The time is now

The Hobie forum has a poll asking the age of sailors. I think the bulk of the people were 40 to 60. The internet should be more of outlet for a younger generation. Or I at least I would think that younger people would be searching out things like this through the internet. The hobie poll isn't that great of a benchmark being that only 136 people even voted on it. 4% fall under the youth age group.

Not to mention the fact that this poll was conducted on a HOBIE forum !

Geez, the kids of today do NOT lust over a hobie 16 !

The kids of today do indeed look up alot of stuff on the internet, but why would they go for recent photo's of Twiggy when they can look up recent pics of Beyonce ?

Get the picture ?

Wouter

Twiggy rules, Beyonce drools!

Kids don't care about or have time for talking on sailing forums. They're too busy actually doing things. And that is GOOD!

I thought all kids today sat glued to their computers or tvs? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

None of the kids I know. I think there are more kids participating in more sports today than ever before in history. And that includes sailing, as well.

You get the youth into sailing ONE KID AT A TIME.
1. Take the time to let your kid drive the boat.
2. Beg, borrow or steal an entry level cat and let the kids go out on their own.
3. Borrow the neighbors kid for a weekend crew. Let them make mistakes, and swing on the trap wire in between races.
4. Take your cat on the next group camping trip, and let the kids have a go at it. (ok, get a Wave for this one)

Bottom line: Do Something, and don't bitch about the ones that are doing it on a boat that is different from yours.

We went through this in skiing/snowboarding. Jetski's/motorboats, sailing/motorboats, monohulls/multihulls.... There's idiots in every sport. What you drive doesn't necessarily make you one.

I was at the Youth Nationals. And we gave J.C. a good ribbing about the brand of boats. But the bottom line was that Nacra put up the boats, and we saw our kids have a life experience.

Art did not push Nacra, he pushed youth! Nacra pushed Nacra by supporting the youth.

In closing I'll state that I'm very disappointed in some of the negative responses from my community. Instead of taking advantage of this we're focusing on the ford/chevy argument.

Don:

That is what I have done. Started Ashleigh (grand daughter) at 6, she is now 13. Bought a Mystere 4.3 to further train her on and give her some stick time. We are also going to start learning spinnaker on. Next season I will start with the 7 yr old twin. YES we must do it one at a time, if that is what it takes. We are working on get some input on having Arthur come here.

Doug

How about Hobie 16 the Video Game. Fly Hulls, Surf Swells,
Pitchpoles and more!!! That may get em hooked and then out on the water will soon follow.

Hmm, that game may really be fun now that I think about it. Now I can sail while at work, LOL.

Don, you are right. it is up to all of us to make this happen. You and Shane will have a chance to experience this first hand at the "Fast and Fun" in Kirkland, May 5. Thanks for volunteering. See http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm The pictures tell the story. Last year we had over 100 new sailors out on the Waves. Our Volunteers always have a good time. One Hobie Family makes the trip over from Wenatchee every year to take part. "We look forward to taking new people out on the water". This is also a growing experience for our youth sailors. The rules are simple, have fun, and make sure every visitor has a turn on the tiller.

Caleb Tarleton

All I have to say is if you follow the H16 movement you will notice the class is anything but dead and actually in just the last few years has seen a steady increase in participants, boat sales, and many new fleets. Also the H16 is anything but not interesting to kids and any youth program I have seen using H16's the kids are having great fun. By the way Wouter my daughter who is 15 says you are nuts if you think kids do not like H16's. Also the spinnaker has not been rejected for youth sailing but has been accepted with several training camps and big time promotion of H16’s with spin’s. All I have to say to Wouter is blah, blah, blah. How long have some people been saying the H16 is dieing?...a long time, its not happening now and nor will it, sorry to burst you bubble Wouter. It really is sad to see some wanting to see the demise of a great multihull class but maybe that is part of the problem with the growth of mutlihulls in general. Its just mind boggling to see such a successful multihull class get shunned by this forum but luckily you are a minority.

I love to see other multihull classes being successful because unlike some I see the benefits of many multihull classes as a good thing. My opinion is the SL16 is the wrong direction for youth sailing but I am for sure not going to try and sabotage Arts efforts. Wouter says the H16 class has not been a help to Art well I know for sure Art has never been a promoter of the H16 class so why would you think the H16 class would embrace someone who openly rejects them. Its fine if Art does not like the H16, to each his or her own.

But still, good luck Art we wish you the best!

I'm nopt saying these things because I particulary like to be called an idiot by Hobie 16 sailors.

I say them because over here in North West Europe that is the state of things. Value these things as you like, but the basic situation is not changed by ignoring what is happening in other places.

That is all.

Wouter

Where is this happening? Is it in the United States? Sorry, but I don't know where you are from. If you are in the U.S., where are the "many new fleets" forming? If this is the case, I would like to publicize it in "Catamaran Sailor Magazine."

I can't imagine the Hobie 16 Class ever disappearing, but "growing" is a good story.

We're a new fleet (297 resurrected number) that is focusing on the 16 as an entry level boat based strictly on availibility and low cost.

As far as racing goes, we were all excited about going to Mid-Americas last year because in '05 there were like 15 H16's there. We roll in and there are two other 16's (lesson learned, call ahead!) and they called down to Dallas to have a guy scurry up Saturday a.m. for a total of four boats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> If you like starts with at least 6 to 8 boats the H20 is the boat to bring.

We're hosting Division 14's "daggerless" regatta this weekend and have a little more than 20 16's and few less than 20 14's, but half of these people either race other classes the remainder of the season, have held on to their 14 or 16, or borrow/charter a boat specifically for this event.

The nut must not be from Division 7 or 14 because ours and sogncab (444) are the only new fleets.

Wow! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Wouter got schooled by a 15 year old girl! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just thought it was funny...