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I20

Posted By: fin.

I20 - 04/27/07 03:40 PM

What's so great about the I-20? Seriously.
Posted By: PTP

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 03:49 PM

Maybe not a job I guess, but looks like you need a new hobby. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

HEY.. with all the time you spend on the forum why don't you go sailing! You are in the perfect situation to do that! Singlehanded boat with no kids and your wife works all day!!!
Not meaning to call you out or anything, but thats what I would be doing if I were you... SAILING!
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 03:50 PM

Have you been on one? Very nice boat to sail. There are really no other 20 footers out there that compare (for a reasonable cost)
Posted By: mbounds

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 03:52 PM

[Linked Image]

I'm ready <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 03:52 PM

Quote
Maybe not a job I guess, but looks like you need a new hobby. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

HEY.. with all the time you spend on the forum why don't you go sailing! You are in the perfect situation to do that! Singlehanded boat with no kids and your wife works all day!!!
Not meaning to call you out or anything, but thats what I would be doing if I were you... SAILING!


I usually work 3-11, Dave! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The boat is 2 hours away. I work in the yard a little, surf the web a little and drink coffee a lot! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That is my hobby!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 03:55 PM

I don't know of any other production 20 footers for the most part. Can't compare it to the 6.0 for that reason. I think they are great boats (but too heavy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
I like Tad's description of them being like an old Cadillac... but not in a derogatory way. I have only been on one once and it was blowing and I wussed out big time (ask Trey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). Was a short wet ride.
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 03:55 PM

Quote
Have you been on one? Very nice boat to sail. There are really no other 20 footers out there that compare (for a reasonable cost)


I haven't had the opportunity, yet. The reason for asking is an interest in distance racing. Seemingly the Blade is really too small, for most people.

What are the negatives? It must be very difficult to right.
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 04:26 PM

Quote
What are the negatives? It must be very difficult to right.


Its heavy, but not difficult to right. The carbon mast is beefy but it really only takes about 200 lbs dangling off the righting line to get her up. Trey has single-handedly righted it a couple times.

Another downside is that its pretty physically demanding on the crew. If you're in a race doing 4 laps, your crew is gonna be pretty tired from setting and snuffing the chute so often. That may just be me though.

For me, really, its the size, the stability, the bows that can push through most anything and to be honest, the great memories of an amazing 500 mile race that I've done on the boat that makes it what it is for me.

Its not everyone's cup of tea. The first time Trey and I sailed it I told him that "It was like being hung off the side of a runaway locamotive."

Again, I'm not pitching it as the solution to everyone's sailing niche <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 04:35 PM

Quote
Quote
Have you been on one? Very nice boat to sail. There are really no other 20 footers out there that compare (for a reasonable cost)


I haven't had the opportunity, yet. The reason for asking is an interest in distance racing. Seemingly the Blade is really too small, for most people.

What are the negatives? It must be very difficult to right.


Pete:

They do real good in The Great Texas Race. Good stable boat from what I hear. We have 3 or 4 here. As for righting I don' know, they are a about the same weight as a Hobie 18 I think?

Doug
Posted By: Chris9

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 04:39 PM

Well I guess I'll be the first one to bite the bait. Well maybe not the first.

It is very easy to sail fast. The 6.0 I had would and could sometimes be faster, but it took a lot more attention and effort to get it going that fast. I recall saying to my crew one evening, "Dude, this is a 6.0, this is not an acat, you had better stand up and put your weight into it!) On the N20 everything works the way it should work. There really isn't much redesign or tinkering needed. Rig, launch, and sail fast. I can't believe I didn't start this response with commenting on the bows. The buoyancy provided by the bows is un-matched in my opinion.

It would be nice if it were say 150#’s lighter.

That’s a few item for you all to begin masticating on.
Posted By: Robi

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 04:53 PM

The N20 is a tank. Better stay out of its way, because it will cause some SERIOUS damage. That is the amount of power it has. 15kts of wind and the boat flies fairly darn easy. It is easy to control, easy to right and extremely powered up. You have lots of real estate on the tramp. It is a very well thought out vessel and I can only image the tweaked boats are even better.

The only con it is kinda heavy. I am not a big fan of SMOD eiether. But other than the boat the boat rocks.
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:22 PM

[quote. . ."It was like being hung off the side of a runaway locamotive."[/quote]

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Robi: Is it really any tougher than the Blade? With two people?
Posted By: WindyHillF20

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:30 PM

I'm with Tad on this one. The I20 is a steamroller. Solid, stable and quick. The chute is a handfull for the crew, unlikely a female can take it. Very predictable in largeish surf. Great boat!
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:30 PM

Pete - Come up to Tampa one day and I'll take you out on mine. It will answer any questions you may have about what makes it so great. That is of course after I get new rudders, mainsheet, and bridle wires. Damn thieves!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:32 PM

Quote
Pete - Come up to Tampa one day and I'll take you out on mine. It will answer any questions you may have about what makes it so great. That is of course after I get new rudders, mainsheet, and bridle wires. Damn thieves!!!!!!!!!!


Ok, say when.
Posted By: Robi

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:36 PM

I would venture out on a limb and say it is easier than the blade with two folks on board. Reason is the I20 is a lot bigger so you have a lot more room to work around the tramp compared to the blade which can get cramped every now and then.

You should surely take up on Karl's offer to take his out. It is a fun boat and very nimble with spin up as well.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:45 PM

Do it!
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 05:48 PM

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> All in good time.
Posted By: Barry

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 07:03 PM

I lot of dribble from sailors that have never even been on the boat. Sail the boat and you will see. It may not be for everyone but is sure a great boat to race when you are in a fleet. I do think the snuffer and self tacker have taken some of the skill out of it. I have been sailing the I20/N20 for 8 years with the 9th year coming up. Tad and Chris are on the money.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 07:22 PM

Quote
I'm with Tad on this one. The I20 is a steamroller. Solid, stable and quick. The chute is a handfull for the crew, unlikely a female can take it. Very predictable in largeish surf. Great boat!


Females do just fine just ask my wife, easily on par with some of the male crews I've had on the front of the boat. But, the front of the boat will give you a workout and at the end of the day it is a boy boat.
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 07:24 PM

I can remember driving off the back of the wave on the port gybe going back towards the beach in the 2nd leg from Hollywood to Jupiter. That gybe was going with the rollers, and if you weren't careful the bows would dig into the back of the next wave.

We stuffed the bows all the way almost all the way to the crossbar, I popped the chute briefly, releasing a little pressure and the bows snapped right back up.

I turned to Trey and said "Nacra 20 - the preferred choice of business travellers all over!" I'm still convinced to this day that had we been on another boat, we would have been swimming out there. (well we still did go swimming - THANKS MISTER PARASAILING BOAT!)

There's a picture from the '05 steeplechase that shows a 20 just submerging itself completely upto the mast. Looks rediculous <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


As for girls on board. Kate was able to hold the chute, but struggled when trying to sheet it, and she couldn't even get the spin out of the bag to hoist. (I think the new tweaks to the snuffer system may solve this though)

Wendy pulled the strings for Zander this weekend at Tommy! She did a damn fine job from what I could tell!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 07:28 PM

Most of the guys around here add a double blocks system to the spinnaker sheets, even on the F-18's. Makes it a lot easier on the crew. I have never sailed one, but that is what I have been told.

Doug
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 07:45 PM

It can be difficult to pump the curl of the luff quick enough with a doubler.

A lot of people waste a lot of energy simply HOLDING the sheet. You can hold it between your two fingers with the ratchomatics, but since its difficult to sheet in people tend to keep their muscles tight when simlpy holding it.
Posted By: Keith

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 08:12 PM

Well, let's see, here's the 20 footers I've raced:

H-20
N-6.0na
N-20

And have crewed on a Tornado.

So, against that - the N-20 is very responsive and carries heavy crew weight well (very important to me). It was designed with the spin so you don't have the cobbled-up engineered feel you have on other boats. There's lots of room on the tramp, and the tramp is very clean in contrast to the flesh ripping devices on the N-6.0 and H-20. The carbon stick is a very nice thing, and not just from a rigging standpoint - the lighter weight aloft means the window of recovery is much greater before you take a swim. The bows are insanely bouyant. As said elsewhere, there are things we've gotten away with due to those two things that would have induced the big swim on the other boats. Up and down wind it feels very natural and balanced. It is responsive to the helm almost to a fault, similar to my H-20, very different from the feel of the 6.0 (heavy feel to the helm). The feel of the N-20 when it's lit up with the spin is addictive, and the hull shape works very well in that mode.

Cons (as far as I'm concerned) - the bouyancy in the bows can be a detriment in some conditions where the 6.0 would just cut through. Looking over old Worrell and Tybee tapes it's interesting to see how the 6.0s go out through the surf versus how the N-20s do it. I'd like more freeboard to the hulls - maybe the 6.0 spoiled me, but I hate it when the rear crossbeam or tramp catches a wave (a behavior shared by the H-20 and T). I know, just fly the hull higher, still... I don't like it that the rudders cavitate from time to time (I've experienced it more upwind in big chop), and yes, I know there is an updated design (that nobody uses). And lastly, while the boat feels real good up and down wind, to me it feels more unsettled and twitchy when reaching, while the 6.0 feels like a rock solid freight train. There are conditions where we've gone boat for boat with the 6.0 (without spin) against the N-20s and come out on top or kept even - although usually ended when the N-20 spins could be used to best effect.

As for righting, the more difficult boats to right that I have owned have been all the Hobies - 14, 18, and 20. By far the easiest to right have been the 6.0 and N-20.

Just my opinion...
Posted By: basketcase

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 09:00 PM

Just a small comment, but why not let the women drive and let the men hold the ropes?? To me, seems when I am running the ropes and someone else is driving I get a better feel for the boat. Also, then i can just yell at them to "pull or push" the rudders, instead of telling them to pull the ropes.

Jonathan Grant
Mesa, AZ
nacra20less.....
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 09:03 PM

Quote
Just a small comment, but why not let the women drive and let the men hold the ropes?? To me, seems when I am running the ropes and someone else is driving I get a better feel for the boat. Also, then i can just yell at them to "pull or push" the rudders, instead of telling them to pull the ropes.

Jonathan Grant
Mesa, AZ
nacra20less.....


1 - I don't tell the wife how to trim
2 - That front of the boat [censored] is hard work!
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 09:30 PM

Quote
Quote
Just a small comment, but why not let the women drive and let the men hold the ropes?? To me, seems when I am running the ropes and someone else is driving I get a better feel for the boat. Also, then i can just yell at them to "pull or push" the rudders, instead of telling them to pull the ropes.

Jonathan Grant
Mesa, AZ
nacra20less.....


1 - I don't tell the wife how to trim
2 - That front of the boat [censored] is hard work!


what he said

and, she doesn't want to drive. She's scared of it. Mine is anyways. Wouldn't drive my 17 either. Weird huh?
Posted By: Mary

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 09:32 PM

Quote
Just a small comment, but why not let the women drive and let the men hold the ropes?? To me, seems when I am running the ropes and someone else is driving I get a better feel for the boat. Also, then i can just yell at them to "pull or push" the rudders, instead of telling them to pull the ropes.

Jonathan Grant
Mesa, AZ
nacra20less.....

You are right about the best way for some teams to handle it, with the woman driving. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But you ruined it by saying it in a very demeaning and patronizing way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Jake

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 09:42 PM

If I had a wish list of improvements for the I20 it would be first a deck that's level with the main beam on the leading edge. I can feel so much speed bleed off as water pounds the front beam as it flows over the top of the deck (usually under spinnaker in waves). Second, more height for the rear beam...the bucking bronco wave slap is A) not fun B) surprising and can make you loose your balance and C) knocks you out of the speed groove.

(the Mega Cat Playstation had problems with rear beam slap...can you imagine what that was like!?)
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 11:10 PM

Well, IMHO the N20 is just a fad. That's what I heard. Tiki told me.

In all actuality, it is by far the most fun boat I've sailed. It handles anything you throw at it, from 20 knots of wind to 420 pound crew weights. You can drive it all the way up the beach, and fly a hull in 7 knots. It's easy to right, and easy to control. Once you get it dialed in, hang on!
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/27/07 11:23 PM

Quote
(the Mega Cat Playstation had problems with rear beam slap...can you imagine what that was like!?)



Ironically, I believe the I20 and Playstation had the same designer.
Posted By: PTP

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 12:25 AM

Quote
If I had a wish list of improvements for the I20 it would be first a deck that's level with the main beam on the leading edge. I can feel so much speed bleed off as water pounds the front beam as it flows over the top of the deck (usually under spinnaker in waves). Second, more height for the rear beam...the bucking bronco wave slap is A) not fun B) surprising and can make you loose your balance and C) knocks you out of the speed groove.

(the Mega Cat Playstation had problems with rear beam slap...can you imagine what that was like!?)


As for beam slap... I just finished my risers for the rear beam on the HT. I know the rear beam on the N20 isn't round, but you could engineer something. I took 4 inch OD al tubing and cut the tops off, basically flipped them, welded them put in a base of epoxy with filler to make up the ID/OD difference and they are nice. Went out today in chop with 20kn of winds and didn't slap but maybe once.
Dunno if this screws with the one design deal though...
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 12:48 AM

Many good boats out there, and I have sailed and owned quite a few "bigger" cats...SC 20, G-Force 21, N 20, but the best sailing and overall boat has to be the N20. Always powered up whether light wind or blowing stink, but manageable in all for crews who can push it. I remember owning the boat for a short period and going down to race the boys in Florida. Not much chute time under Jake or my belt and it was blowing 20 at the old moose lodge in Largo. We were so scared we would drop the chute 50 yards from the mark, there were 15 or so N20's flying at us from all directions, and man were we flying. Ahh the memories of the DLW....Never heard of her? Ask around....

[img]http://www.powergroovesailing.com/DLW.htm[/img]
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 02:30 AM

Has anyone tried a 6.0 with a carbon mast?
Posted By: basketcase

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 02:33 AM

Quote
But you ruined it by saying it in a very demeaning and patronizing way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Sorry, didnt mean for it to come out that way. More of of the essence of 'green' crews or people for the most part that dont understand what i means to bear off or head up...

Jonathan
Posted By: TeamTeets

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 03:30 AM

There were a few floating around Ohio/Mich for a while pre-Inter days. Nacra Europe supposedly did offer them for a time...

http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/102172-DSC04862.JPG
Posted By: Wouter

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 07:41 AM

-1- The rudders stall frequently.

-2- It is waaaay overpowered requiring in 10:1 or more mainsheet purchase that is thrightingly slow in response.

-3- In big wind you need to depower so much that smaller boats like the F18 and F16 are passing it upwind. All that depowered sailarea is just drag. The speed difference is such that halve the time you can pass them through their lee wind shadow.

-4- It is heavy overall.

-5- The spinnaker loads are very large and tiring.

-6- Its bows are so full that 20 footers with a better bow design are faster in winds over 14 knots or so. Think Eagle 20 etc. The only exception is the Hobie FOX here, but that one had other issues


And yes I did sail it more then once. Not with the new rudder design though.

Still, it is one of the best long distance race designs, mostly because of it's fat bows and long length compared to its width, it feels stable and calm which is important for long sail trips. In bouy races it is much less convincing.

Also it is fitted out well and there is heaps of space on the trampoline. I think it is a noticeably better design then its little brother the Nacra Inter 18, despite the fact that they share alot of features.

Generallly a good boat.

Wouter
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 09:11 AM

Never sailed a I20, but have seen a few around when sailing my Hurricane 5.9 (another 20 footer), And my opinion of the Inter 20 was a very solid boat which looked like it should go fairly quickly, but never really got there in the UK; probably because the Hurricne 5.9 was a well established boat already, sailed by good sailors that could usually beat the I20 over the water and the Hurricane (at the time) was only 2 sails.

If the inter 20 had "made it" in the UK before the Hurricane 5.9, it might have been a different story; have to agree with Wouters comments on the bow shape of the I20, but this did mean it was very difficult to pitchpole.
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 12:31 PM

Wouter, youre right about the rudder stall, but only with the old rudder design,and the boat is quite a joy to sail otherwise. Its demanding no doubt, but I wouldnt do a distance race on anything else. I love my F18, and the F16 looks pretty cool too, but I wouldnt trek up the Atlantic coast on either one in a blow, I'll save those boats for the lakes. Im not saying they cant handle big wind or rough seas, just not 6 days of it, it would literally beat you death. Not many F18's or F16's beating the N20 boat for boat in any conditions around here, but then again the boys sailing the N20 are quite good, and the F16 fleet is just getting up to speed. So maybe one day we will see that here, but for now the N20 is still the dominate "fast" boat and the only boat for the Tybee.
Lunch Trey...you see how I defend your big heavy boat? You still need to get an F18....
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 01:01 PM

I was wondering how long it would take for Wouter to come in and crap on the boat.

I'd just like everyone to take note that I've said multiple times that the N20 "isn't for everyone" for the reasons mentioned above. Whereas you go to any "what boat should I buy?" thread and see what boat is mentioned 100% of the time? :P
Posted By: Mary

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 01:35 PM

Tad,
I think it's interesting to hear different critiques on different boats, whether you agree with them or not - and whether or not you like the person delivering the message.
Posted By: tback

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 01:40 PM

Quote
Lunch Trey...you see how I defend your big heavy boat?


Better bring an I20 daggerboard ... Trey only eats off the finest fiberglass extrusions <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Linked Image]
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 01:50 PM

Quote
Tad,
I think it's interesting to hear different critiques on different boats, whether you agree with them or not - and whether or not you like the person delivering the message.

Nevermind. I'm sick of always being the bad guy when I actually speak whats on my mind.
Posted By: Mary

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 01:59 PM

It is all good, even when it is bad.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 02:58 PM

Actually, that's a carbon skiff daggerboard.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 03:30 PM

Mary/Guys:

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the Ultimate Catamaran Buyers Guide. I have a forum friend looking at a lot of used boats. Yes I know the prices are outdated, but there is good info there. The web search link no longer works.

Doug
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 03:42 PM

it used to be over at the sailingproshop.com site. But not anymore.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 04:05 PM

Quote
it used to be over at the sailingproshop.com site. But not anymore.


Yea that's my problem. That is where I always went.

Doug
Posted By: hobiegary

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 06:31 PM

buyers guide
http://web.archive.org/web/20020802210028/www.sailingproshop.com/Catamaran.htm
http://tinyurl.com/282atp
Redundant, redundant. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

old version:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010112223400/www.west.net/~lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i6/feature2.htm
http://tinyurl.com/2rc7p3

How to find old stuff from the internet?? I used The Way Back Machine.

"Browse through 85 billion web pages archived from 1996 to a few months ago. To start surfing the Wayback, type in the web address of a site or page where you would like to start, and press enter. Then select from the archived dates available. The resulting pages point to other archived pages at as close a date as possible. Keyword searching is not currently supported."

http://www.archive.org/index.php

GARY
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 06:52 PM

Thanks Gary. I found the one I was looking for through your link. It will help him.

Doug
Posted By: seajay

Re: I20 - 04/28/07 07:18 PM

I'm just starting to get to grips with my I20 and I am loving every moment of it. Having sailed a Prindle 19 previously, the I20 just feels so much safer in waves and chop. Still trying to master the chute, but a bit of righting practice does one no harm! The I20 is just awesome.
Chris
Posted By: tshan

Re: I20 - 04/29/07 02:32 AM

Quote
I was wondering how long it would take for Wouter to come in and crap on the boat.


It was actually a fair assesment, IMO. He said it was a good boat, best open/distance boat, commented that the rudders had been upgraded ... what exactly was the "crap" in his post? I though it overall to be a positive post.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: I20 - 04/29/07 06:31 AM


Quote

... what exactly was the "crap" in his post? ...



The fact that I had written it.

I'm just the guy he loves to hate. Probably because he knows I'm right ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: I20 - 04/29/07 06:38 AM


Quote

Nevermind. I'm sick of always being the bad guy when I actually speak whats on my mind.



Humm, I never found that.

Wouter
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/29/07 02:44 PM

I'm still bitter about you calling my I20 a "barge."

To my experience, I've never laid eyes on a barge as sexy as mine thank you very much.


And I've never had to do this to get my boat moving:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=71e_1175963898
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: I20 - 04/29/07 08:21 PM

Quote
And I've never had to do this to get my boat moving:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=71e_1175963898

Hahahahahahaha!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gree2056

Re: I20 - 04/29/07 08:43 PM

My uncle just built a huge 18 foot aluminuim boat that reminds me of the barge being rowed, I think i will send that to him.
Posted By: Keith

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 02:25 PM

Quote

Quote

... what exactly was the "crap" in his post? ...



The fact that I had written it.

I'm just the guy he loves to hate. Probably because he knows I'm right ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


Especially since I had already beat you time-wise in saying the same "bad" things - probably means that people actually read your posts! Cheers!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 02:43 PM

Pete,

look what you started! Lots of posting to catch up on!



I would suggest you ask the N20 sailors who just completed the Alter Cup on the Blades for their opinions of the difference. That way, you could extrapolate your Blade experience on a N20 from those that know. JW, Tina, JC, BK, and most of the others have owned or raced N20, F18, F16, and maybe F17. Also, most are T-500 experienced, so they have a lot of info on many different conditions to sail in.
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 02:46 PM

I have, in part. what did I start!? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Just asked a very simple question. And in a civil tone too! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Timbo

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 03:02 PM

The single greatest feature of the Inter 20 I found was it's stability in unstable conditions. With 20 feet of hull and big fat bows, you can relly push it hard going downwind. You can easily de-power it upwind too. It's nearly impossible to overload it. It drives like a Cadilac, smooth and fast. It's not a light, twitchy boat like the F18HT's or A cats, which will usually beat the I-20 to the A mark, but when you pull that big spinnaker out and point it downwind, it will take you on the ride of your life, with complete stability in big wind and waves.

The one big drawback is the same as for the F18's, it weighs nearly 400lbs and you must race it two up, per the rules, not because it takes two to sail it, it certainly does not take two in light to medium wind. I used to sail mine solo here on a lake in up to 17 knots, and yes, I did right it solo many times. It is a great ride and on a distance race it won't beat you to death.

They are getting expensive. I have heard rumors of $19,000 for a new boat. That's why you can't find a used one.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 03:11 PM

The only time I felt a little helpless and on the edge of control on an I20 was downwind with it gusts to 34-36 knots.
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 03:15 PM

Quote
The only time I felt a little helpless and on the edge of control on an I20 was downwind with it gusts to 34-36 knots.


AHA! The best reason to stay away from the I-20s is the skippers are all nuts! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Sign me, I. B. Wuss.
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 03:47 PM

Quote
AHA! The best reason to stay away from the I-20s is the skippers are all nuts!


Completely -

[Linked Image]
Posted By: fin.

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 04:10 PM

Quote
Quote
AHA! The best reason to stay away from the I-20s is the skippers are all nuts!


Completely -

[Linked Image]


Do you recall the conditions pictured here? Trying to analyze photos again! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 04:12 PM

knowing Trey,

it was between races trying to show off his shiney bottom.
Posted By: Robi

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 04:14 PM

That main has too much twist. Certainly not fast. Crew looks to happy (smiling) that means more butt whooping is needed.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 04:42 PM

Hey! I resemble that remark!!!!!!!
Posted By: BobG

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 06:05 PM

What no Miami talk ,figured you F16 (not Taipan) Blade people would be all over that result with L.Lawrence he sailed it very quickly......
Posted By: bvining

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 06:06 PM

My crew just sold his i20 and I'm reading this thinking, I wish he hadnt sold it. I miss that boat already.

The i20 is fun downwind in the medium winds, like 10-12, when the crew is down on the leeward hull, mostly underwater, goggles on, trimming between fire hose blasts, the skipper is up high and dry, warm sunshine on my face, steering, hull out of the water, ahhhh, good times, good times.

I actually considered getting him a snorkel, perhaps thats why he sold it.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 06:26 PM

Quote
That main has too much twist. Certainly not fast. Crew looks to happy (smiling) that means more butt whooping is needed.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Definitely - crew is way to happy.
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I20 - 04/30/07 06:29 PM

Thats ironic considering thats "Team Happy" in the flesh.
Posted By: Wouter

I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:03 PM

Quote

What no Miami talk ,figured you F16 (not Taipan) Blade people would be all over that result with L.Lawrence he sailed it very quickly......



I get a feeling that there is something to know here.

So I went to the Miami Key Largo homepage : http://miamiyachtclub.net/regattas/miamikeylargo/race.htm

And looked up the race results : http://miamiyachtclub.net/regattas/miamikeylargo/mklresults2007.pdf


And what do you know :

Luke Lawrence, sailing a Blade F16, finished 7th on handicap in a fleet of 42 beach cats. In this fleet 24 cats were 19, 20, 21, 23, 27 and 30 feet in length. Luke and his crew beat 17 of them on elapsed time ! Who said the Blade F16 can't do distance races in light winds and be competitive ?

And he did it in 5-10 mph winds. Was Luke sailing with Caroline Wright ?

Also note the other youth sailor Sarah Newbury on the tornado at 3rd spot in both listings. The youths are doing excellent here.

Results on handicap are (first 10)

-1- Roberts, Eric RC-30 5:21:34
-2- Philips, Michael Marstrom M-20 5:20:02
[color:"blue"]-3- Newberry, Sarah Tornado 5:51:03 [/color]
-4- Sonnenklar, Jay Inter-20 6:11:01
-5- Mayo, Clive Marstrom M-18 6:25:44
-7- Moss, Bret A Class + SPIN 6:27:01
[color:"red"]-8- Lawrence, Luke Blade F16 (2-up) 6:35:02 [/color]


On elapsed time the results are (first 10):

-1- Roberts, Eric RC-30 2:50:45
-2- Philips, Michael Marstrom M-20 3:05:37
[color:"blue"] -3- Newberry, Sarah Tornado 3:27:07 [/color]
-4- Sonnenklar, Jay Inter-20 3:40:01
-5- Sonneklar, Jared Inter-20 3:59:05
-6- Mayo, Clive Marstrom M-18 3:59:09
-7- Moss, Bret A Class + SPIN 3:59:57
-8- Greene, Terry Inter-20 4:01:47
-9-Leonard, Joe Inter-20 4:02:15
[color:"red"]-10- Lawrence, Luke Blade F16 (2-up) 4:17:34 [/color]


Also note how close the doublehanded F16 stayed to the singlehanded M-18 and A-cat+spi, again in 5-10 mph winds ? At least all that carbon looks good ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Wouter
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:16 PM

Yeah

I might have a government-institutional-mindwashing-education, but I can't for the life of me, figure out what in the sam hell your post has to do with the boat formerly known as the Inter 20.
Posted By: fin.

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:35 PM

Quote
. . . the boat formerly known as the Inter 20.


So what is it known as now?
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:38 PM

The Nacra 20.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:38 PM

Quote

So what is it known as now?



200 kg barge !

Haven't you been paying attention Tiki ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:56 PM

We'll see how the F16 fairs when its Portsmouth numbers take a good hit in the near future...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 08:58 PM

Do they use Alter Cup elapsed times to calculate DPN?

I would think that it would be a good start, as you would have some of the finest crews out there on an official course in a variety of conditions.
Posted By: tshan

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 09:14 PM

Doesn't it take fleets of mixed type/brand of boats (as you would be comparing performance over the same course, conditions, etc.) to be used for Portsmouth rating calculations? Just guessing here....
Posted By: Wouter

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 09:26 PM

Quote

We'll see how the F16 fairs when its Portsmouth numbers take a good hit in the near future...



Hell, I'm the one who has been saying for years now that the US F16 rating should be the same or very close to the F18 rating.

I'm on your side on this one ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I also quoted the elapsed times and here peachy handicap numbers have no influence.

Finishing 18 minutes behind the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Nacra 20 on elapsed time and after 4 hours of racing in light winds doesn't seem to shabby to me. This difference still translates in a winning US-PN F16 rating of 63.7. This is quite close to a the F18 rating at 62.4. In other words it will have to be a BIG drop for it to have an impact on F16 regatta results !

Now back the Nacra 20.

Wouter
Posted By: Mary

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 04/30/07 09:27 PM

Quote
Doesn't it take fleets of mixed type/brand of boats (as you would be comparing performance over the same course, conditions, etc.) to be used for Portsmouth rating calculations? Just guessing here....


Yes.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 12:56 PM

I have no experience on a N20. But sitting on the beach they are a very good looking boat. This is my 2nd season racing a H16 and the Nacra seems too technical, and too reliant on having really good crew for me, (which I never have consistently). The one design racing for Nacra's in the upper midwest isn't as convient for me either. I've only done a couple of Portsmouth reggata's on my 16 and didn't care for it. Mostly because there were a few spin boats that were borderline terrifying when they'd come tearing by you downwind. And starts, I had a couple of brilliant starts only having to make room 20 sec.s after the gun for the boats that point much higher. Whether this is heresy or not, I have no clue, but I've heard it takes a couple of hours setup time on the bigger spin boats as well. I don't like the half hour it takes to launch a 16. But I still really want to experience a N20 sometime.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 02:21 PM

Arrival to launch time from mast up storage on trailer with skilled crew including getting drygear on: 40 minutes.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 02:34 PM

The only thing faster to rig than a Hobie 16 is maybe an A cat. The only thing slower to rig than two guys on an Inter 20 is...one guy doing it alone! Still, when I raced mine with my son, I could do it alone in under an hour, as long as he stayed out of the way!

It only looks intimidating, it's not that big a deal once you have done it a few times, but you will never be as fast rigging any spinnaker boat vs. a Hobie 16.

The "really good crew" will always be an issue if you want to race a 20 foot anything, or an F18. That is why some like the F16 class, you can race solo if crew is an issue or two up if you have crew. And as the Alter Cup crews just proved, it's not a "light air, light crew only" type boat.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 02:43 PM

Quote
T
The "really good crew" will always be an issue if you want to race a 20 foot anything, or an F18. That is why some like the F16 class, you can race solo if crew is an issue or two up if you have crew. And as the Alter Cup crews just proved, it's not a "light air, light crew only" type boat.


What's your definition of heavy?
Posted By: tback

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 02:59 PM

Quote

What's your definition of heavy?


for Timbo it's got to be:

A term included in the call sign of large aircraft for purposes of air traffic control.

For example, air traffic control could say "Flight 277 HEAVY, come to heading 230 flight level 320 for traffic." referring to a plane having the capability of a gross weight in excess of 255,000 pounds (115,700 kg) whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 03:35 PM

Ding, heavy would be me eating pizza, drinking beer, and eating cake, while sailing... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Really though, what I meant was there was this prevailing attitude that the Blade was only for small people, but I saw some heavier people going very fast, faster than some lighter people.

I have no idea what the range of crew weights were but I think Matt and Gina were among the lighter of the 20 crews, I don't know who was the heaviest.

As I have been saying for two years, the hulls have lots of volume aft and can cary weight well. You don't have to be a skinny sailor to go fast on it. Certainly if you are going to race it solo you will have plenty of power.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 03:42 PM

Matt and Gina were around 285 I think. Heaviest team I heard was Layline at 360. There was a big grouping of teams around 310 - that's what JC and I weigh together. 310 is not enough on the N20 in my opinion - need something around 340-350. The days of people asking me to crew on a 20 are past, I'm afraid. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 04:01 PM

Thank you John, that's the answer I was looking for.

Dave
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 04:05 PM

Quote
flight level 320


FL320 doesn't exist, unless something has changed since I went to school for ATC.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 04:43 PM

Hey Ding -

It is not so much a strength thing on the 20 - I think you need the rail meat to hold the boat down as the breeze comes up. He who depowers first going uphill seems to lose. A good spin halyard set up and a pair of tuned 57mm autos on each side of the boat make the crew work achievable for just about anyone. I simply don't have the mass to do my part on the wire... it takes a 210-pound skipper, minimum, to get the two of us into the ballpark. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 04:52 PM

Quote
it takes a 210-pound skipper, minimum, to get the two of us into the ballpark.


That shouldn't be hard in the I20 class to find a skipper that heavy.

Hell, the "walking toothpick with a pingpong ball head" is up to 200lbs as he types this.
Posted By: Keith

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 05:37 PM

Quote
Quote
it takes a 210-pound skipper, minimum, to get the two of us into the ballpark.


That shouldn't be hard in the I20 class to find a skipper that heavy.

Hell, the "walking toothpick with a pingpong ball head" is up to 200lbs as he types this.


I'm slowly crawling my way down to 210... I think that's a big thing about these boats - either you're lighter and feel at a disadvantage, or heavier and are thankful for a boat that can handle your weight. For the heavy guys if you go to any other class you're looking for crew that weighs 100 lbs to get competitive.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 05:55 PM

John,

You just found one shipper in that ballpark. When can you be availible? Can you make Tuesday nights on the Chesapeake Bay? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mary

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 05:57 PM

It's too bad that weight has to be so much of a factor for people to feel they can be competitive on catamarans. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 05:58 PM

John, I'll let you drive/crew anytime on Undecided. You available this weekend? Would love to have an authentic rockstar on board <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 06:31 PM

My crew is 200 and I am a shade lighter at 175. Now, if I could just get my hands on another N20, we'd be set, right?

Crash diets are for quitters. Just buy a bigger boat.
Posted By: bsquared

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 06:32 PM

Quick partial hijack-how flat can you get the main with max depower? I'm used to completely boarding the top third of my H20, and this weekend on the NACRA I couldn't seem to get all the curve out the top. Twisted off nicely, just not flat. Not a common guest on this beast; is that a function of the square top; not enough downhaul (I had some adrenaline left and COULD have pulled more); not enough diamond tension; or no traveler (we weren't quite at that point yet)?

Regards being a "boy's boat", it was sure a workout for me. It was the first race of the season, but still... HOLDING the chute wasn't bad; it was pulling it back in that was the workout :-) The light fluky stuff Saturday was more of a workout than the strong stuff Sunday, because the chute seemd a lot more stable Sunday.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 06:33 PM

Hi Mary -

I'm not one to suggest that if you don't weigh a certain amount that you shouldn't consider racing. That's absurd. I sail very light on my F18 often - well below the minimum and I have to carry corrector weight even with the small sail plan. But I am not one of the tip-top skippers in the fleet. It is futile to deny that each boat has a preferred crew weight range in overall conditions - when you claw your way to the top like these Nacra 20 teams are doing, it is the tiny discriminators that make a difference between 1st and 3rd. The Nacra 6.0 was vulnerable when under-crewed, and the Nacra 20 is even more so, in my opinion. That doesn't mean that a minimum weight (or less) team can't be competitive throughout the season. When Kevin Rejda and I were seeking the 6.0 Championship back in the late 1990's at minimum weight, it finally sank in that one windy day at Nationals was all it took to take us out of contention. We were a top team and raced everyone hard, but sooner or later, the breeze comes up and the first one to max out the downhual was the first one to travel down... at that point, you're just not going as fast and as high as the boat can go.

But do you think that is discouraging? I don't - I'm still sailing light and pushing as hard as I can. Breeze came up at Hartwell for a day, and Tina and I hung in there for a third in the biggest breeze.

edit:: Remember when the first question on the beach was "how much do you weigh?" Back when I raced 16s, I got asked all the time because I was small and the 16 likes a minimum weight crew - same as the Nacra 20, only reversed. The weight thing has been around a looooooong time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 06:55 PM

Quote


Regards being a "boy's boat", it was sure a workout for me. It was the first race of the season, but still... HOLDING the chute wasn't bad; it was pulling it back in that was the workout :-) The light fluky stuff Saturday was more of a workout than the strong stuff Sunday, because the chute seemd a lot more stable Sunday.


For the wife it really isn't the constant sail trim that get's her, it is the sets and the snuffs. A good set and snuff can pay big at crowded mark roundings especially in a breeze. Almost 100% of the time I'm tugging on the halyard on the set, but it's all her on the snuff. The assist on the set appears to keep us on par with the stronger/younger teams.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 07:25 PM

Didn't Alex & Patsy kick serious butt with corrector weights? Again, only in the big wind were the rest of us able to keep up, and then only marginally.

You can make that square top pancake flat, but you're right that you need max downhaul (mainsheet tight and then crank some more) and diamond tension around 750 lbs with a Looz gauge.
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 07:29 PM

I agree that the 20 could use more purchase on the downhaul.

On the T500 I cut a wooden broomhandle into two 6" sections, drilled a hole big enough in it and then rand the DH line through it. Found the right length to play, then put two wraps around it to make it bite. Made playing it a bunch easier.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 07:47 PM

I did that too, and one set for the rotator control. This way I had a better grip and could adjust one handed if needed.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 07:56 PM

pussies
Posted By: fin.

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/01/07 08:08 PM

Quote
[quote]. . . the "walking toothpick with a pingpong ball head" is up to 200lbs as he types this.


Does he sail a barge! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 08:30 PM

Quote
pussies


You're just jealous that you didn't think of it first... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: Depower - 05/01/07 09:02 PM

ding: it wasn't so much a matter of being a pussy, it was more along the lines of "my hand is cramped from playing the downhaul for 8 hours and if I don't do something about it we're not going to do very well or go over"

Ironically, the leg I put them on, we didn't come in last!
(2005)

Quote
Does he sail a barge!


What else would he sail?
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/02/07 02:34 PM

Quote
It's too bad that weight has to be so much of a factor for people to feel they can be competitive on catamarans. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It's not just on catamarans. I've had people try to talk me into joining them (or their fleet) on lasers, scows, 505s, etc. based on my build.

Weight and height do make a difference. I once sailed a tanzer 16 with combined crew weight of around 450lbs on a breezy day and we cleaned up. Nobody else could keep their boat flat.

Weight (or lack thereof) alone, however, does not win races - especially at my level. One of the best light-air sailors in my fleet has the heaviest boat - by far. It doesn't seem to hold him back.

At the higher levels, where everybody is capable of sailing the boat to its potential, I expect crew weight is a larger factor. When I win or lose, though, it is not due to my size - it's because I sailed better than, or not as well as the others that day.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: drbinkle

Re: I sense that I had missed something. - 05/02/07 04:01 PM

Quote
One of the best light-air sailors in my fleet has the heaviest boat - by far. It doesn't seem to hold him back.


Catch the right puff and you can win on momentum alone. Light air sailing can be so much fun. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SunnyZ

Not a girly boat - 05/03/07 08:35 PM

I love to crew on this boat. I loved Tad's discription that it was like hanging off the side of a runaway locomotive. You can feel the power of it. When it starts really singing you feel like it would plow through anything.

As far as pulling the strings on one, I don't have much trouble in light or moderate wind but if it starts to heat up a bit that big chute wears on me pretty quickly. I can still do it, but not very effectively. By the third or fourth set in wind at 15 or more I am pretty much just hanging on to the sheet. I wish I could tell you differently but my upper body strength is just not the same as a man's.

If you knew me, you would know how much it kills me to admit that.

If a girl is going to be really good crew for this boat I think she would have to be serious about it. It is not something I could just do casually and expect to do well in heavier air.

I am getting my weights out after I post this.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Not a girly boat - 05/03/07 10:42 PM

Patsy Shafer has kicked many a Man's butt, crewing on the Inter 20, sometimes in big wind too! And I would say she is built as petite as they come.
Posted By: Inter_Michael

Re: I20 - 05/03/07 11:11 PM

FL 320 Does Exist!

New RVSM rules. (I use it all the time)
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: I20 - 05/04/07 12:33 AM

Ah, new rule. They were talking about combining the flight levels to ease congestion, but I had no clue. I went to college to work at a center controlling, but decided that I wouldn't make a good controller. I have the attention span of a gopher. Hey look! Something shiny! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Will_R

Re: Depower - 05/04/07 12:34 AM

Quote
pussies


Agree!!!

Less whining, more trimming
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: I20 - 05/05/07 01:49 AM

Quote
FL 320 Does Exist!

New RVSM rules. (I use it all the time)


Yes, that is "flight level three two zero" and it exists up there around 32,000 feet... ish. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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