Alter Cup View from onboard the Blade

First of all, the workmanship by Vectorworks was outstanding. Matt and his team paid close attention to detail and it shows.

The boat/design sails very well. Over the course of the event we sailed the boat in everything from slight chop to 3 foot waves and wind speeds ranging from less than 5 knots to 20+ knots. The boat handled well in all conditions, but it's short waterline length handicapped it in the 20+ winds and bigger wave conditions. On the plus side, it sailed exceptionally well in 15 knots and flat water. It went upwind like it was on rails. Upwind, it responded very well to depowering in the 20+ days by dropping the traveller about 6 inches, raising the boards 4 inches, maxing out the downhaul, rotating the mast in a little more, and easing the jib traveller out to the max. Downwind was another story, we alternated between overtrimming the spin, or easing it off completely, neither method seemed to make any difference on the tendancy of stuffing the bows. They only defense seemed to sail the boat as hot as possible and keep the apparent wind forward. When we tried to sail low and slow, we were constantly fighting the bows from stuffing. I couldn't slide far enough back, I kept running out of boat...

Overall, I think that the boat doesn't fit my particular style of sailing (offshore and big air), but it is a great platform for it's design parameters. I think that anyone who purchases one for the purpose of around the bouy / lake sailing will be extremely happy with their choice. That being said, I think that the current portsmouth number will be falling rapidly, the boat contains a lot more speed potential than the current portsmouth number reflects.

All in all, I enjoyed sailing the boat, and it was fun competing against the numerous male/female and youth teams that probably would not have been as competitive if the event had been held on a larger platform.

A big thanks to Vectorworks and Matt for providing the 10 blades to sail last week. I had a great time. The boats turned out to be very different from what I expected. I only wish I would have got to sail them in a little 5-12 weather to get a feel for them in lighter wind. Most every race I sailed was 15-20.

Our team tipped the scales right about in the middle of what most of the teams were running. The boat seemed very powered up for our weight. I only had one race where we had to single trap for a short time upwind.

The build quality was very high on the boats. Most if not all of the redress issues were with rigging issues that were worked out as the week continued. The rigging issues were simple stuff like tieing knots with tales and taping knots so they don't come out.

This is the first boat that I can honestly say I've planed upwind on. The boat was just blazingly fast in the big air upwind.

Downwind they are a handful in the big air. You definitely have to be careful to baby them and be ready to bare off quick when the gusts hit.

I think they are the perfect boat for a person that wants to go out single handed at times and yet would like to also take a crew out at times. Seems like the perfect boat to fit that niche.

The wing mast was a learning experience for me. Unfortunately I didn't catch on to it quick enough.

The boats controls were laid out well and worked well with the factory setup. The lines on the boat were very high quality for a factory setup.

I also believe Matt still has some Alter Cup Boats available after this competition. Boats should be debugged for some happy owner.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Mike:

That is the big reason I am looking at one. Would you say 210-220 is to much to be competitive uni. Two up we would be about 310-320 with 13 grand daughter. Could she handle the chute if we take it easy while learning?

Doug

why did wouter delete his post I wonder?

Something about the square top acting like a sports car on a wet road.

Yeah.. I was actually holding off reading it until I got to work then it wasn't here. now its gone!!!! What am I sposed to do for entertainment!!

I'm willing to write up the same comments in a different post/different thread.

I deleted my earlier post because I think this thread should be about the Alter Cup crews giving feedback on the Blade F16 and it is not for me to write anything in it this early or even at all.

Personally I want to hear the comments of as many Alter Cup crews as possible. All the good and all the bad stuff they found on the boat. Both are equally interesting and valuable to possible customers out there.

Wouter

Mike K,

Please come back down and we will get you on one that is properly set up. The event guys purposely altered the recommended settings as I was a competitor. Unfortunately, this defeated the advantages of the wing mast and sail combination. When the mast is set to the sail cut, you can still have a very full sail, but with downhaul and rotation it can be flattened out to fit a very wide range of conditions. The masts as they were set up did very little to depower the boat with either rotation or downhaul and as a result people were running with some extreme settings that made for some pretty ugly mast and sail shapes.

Gina and I were the lightest weight team in the competition by a fair bit. We were really fighting the boat as we managed to keep drawing afternoon race slots after the wind picked up. The conditions even then were not very extreme as we have been out in quite a bit more wind and had no problem keeping the boat fast and flat. This does not mean that if I had a choice between a 20 and an F16 for an offshore distance race like the Tybee I would want a 16 as there is no substitute for bows, but the platform is a little more versitile than you saw.

Now before I get bashed by all you forum freaks not out there, I am merely trying to state that the rig has a lot more versatility than was shown in this event. Some of the people who have run the boat before like the Kids and Hess's commented on how these boats felt mushy and not as responsive.

This event was a long time in the making and I was a nervous wreck. By about Friday I was able to relax enough to really appreciate what an amazing event these guys had put on. This was my first Alter Cup experience and Jake, Kevin, the US sailing guys, and Melbourne yacht club put on a great event. Also, I want to thank everyone who took the time to help with this event set up the boats (Dave, Terry, Robi, Noodle, The Chuck, JC, JW, etc. etc.)and those who came to sail. Kevin, Jake and everyone did and excellent job in making all the boats the same and keepng them running. JC, John, John Lovell, Katie, John Tomko and Tiffany all sailed extremely well and got on the boat and had it figured out in no time. Set up or not their team work and skill determined their placing and was very fun to watch. It was especially cool for me to see these guys on the water and for the first time actually see the boats I make sailed.

The one thing I did not understand (well, I understand the logic but I disagree with it) was why, when you have the Blade Expert on site, who could easily tell you where the spreaders should be, how much prebend would be good, etc, and maybe even put on a Q+A period before the practice race, why would you NOT use him for this given that most crews had zero time on the boat??

I realize some may have thought that if Matt were to help set up the masts, then someone might claim he had some kind of unfair advantage. Still, that's no reason to set the mast up wrong, just so nobody has an imagined "advantage". I would trust Matt to set them up for the conditions and tell the crews how to best operate the mast/sail combination, as he has much more invested in the boats performing well vs. winning the regatta.

He was really put in a no-win situation. If he had set up the masts properly and won the regatta, there would be acusations of him setting up the boats for his sailing style.

As it worked out, the masts were not set up right, jibs were poked by spreaders that were not raked back enough and main sails couldn't be depowered enough for the 20 knots because of the spreader set up. But at least all the boats were equally improperly set up so there was no unfair advantage for Matt...just potential customers who didn't like the way the mast was set up!

I was told this came about because last year, they used the Inter 20 and crews tweaked their own rigs, but when they swapped boats, the settings were all different, so it was harder for the crews to adjust to.

Still, when you have a brand new boat and an expert right there...why not use him and the settings he knows that work?

I don't know how anyone could tweak any of the boats at any of the Alter cups to personal style. I went to some of the planning meetings prior to last year's Alter Cup. There was a clear understanding that you weren't allowed to change ANYTHING other than maybe sheeting angle on the mainsheet blocks. The beach captain this year was the same as last year and he is a quality guy who would not allow any screwing with the rules. Aside from that.. hard to see how anyone could change anything in the rig in the 10 minute change over period.

Tim,

Your comments are certainly understandable, but the truth is no one was really comlpaining about the boat setup, mearly commenting on it. JC, John, Tomko and most of the top 10 had nealy no time on the boat, and they still raised to the top.

The Alter Cup is about the best sailors, regardless of the boat or the setup. At least thats my impression of it.

Tim -

I've only got a moment to post, but feel it is important to jump in before this goes any further. You have bad information - no teams tuned rigs last year. No tuning has been allowed any of the last seven or eight years for sure, because I was there.

Here's how it works; the Chair and the Beach Captain talk with those who are most knowledgeable about the boats, whatever they are. A tuning range is established, and the boats are put into the middle of that range. No hocus pocus or misdirection. The boats were not "improperly" tuned. They were all set the same - as Jake posted elsewhere, each part of each boat was meticulously measured. The regatta is not about who knows how best to tune a wing mast - it is about who can figure out how to make what they are given go fast. Just about everyone got on that boat for the very first time on Tuesday for the practice race - top three teams included.

Matt's point is (or should be taken to be) that the wing mast and sail combo on the Blade is versatile and highly customizable.

This event is about competitors, not "possible customers."

The spreader sweep was reduced by 6 or 7mm from Matt's setup and the spreader arm length was reduced by approximately the same length (one hole on the Proctor spreaders).

I think Matt's main point is, if you all think the blades were fast, imagine setting the blade up to your particular weight and sailing style.

Fly baby fly! Good job duders. :thumbsup:

I don't know what happened last year, I only know what I was told. Certainly you want all the boats to be set up the same, especially since they are being swapped after every race. I was told there was a problem with the jib hitting the spreaders. I've never heard of this on the Blade before and asked why Matt was not allowed to help tune the masts. I was told because he is a competitor that would be unfair. There is some logic there, but that is no reason to -not- use his advice when he is also the builder of the boat and has the most time on the boat. I can see where it would be implied that he had some sort of secret knowledge if he were allowed to tune them himself, and if he were winning every race. Would it have been done differently if he were not racing? If you are going to set all the masts the same, as they should be, why not do them all to settings that he knows will work? Or would that be considered unfair?

I would think you would want to get the most out of the boat and the more complex the boat/mast is, the more mast settings matter. Or why not just do the Alter Cup on Waves if you are worried that some class expert is going to have an unfair advantage?

So next year, are you going to -not- use -known- settings on the Capricorn masts? If the US Importer comes to the event and says, "You should do it like this..." are you going to throw that information out and use something else, because he is a competitor in the event?

And I'm not trying to diss anyone, I know it's a huge amount of time and effort to get all the boats set up, I was just surprised that the builder was not allowed to help out more. I would think you would want his help, since he is responsible for the boats well being. And any problems that arise are going to reflect on him and his product.

Maybe in the future, the builders (or importers) shouldn't be allowed to race, that way they can tune the boats for maximum performance and not have to worry about anyone thinking they have an unfair advantage.

All I am trying to say here is maybe the jibs wouldn't have had holes poked in them if they used Matt's settings.

That's beneath you! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And it isn't even rational. If Matt had won the thing, or even done extremely well. The tendency would be to say the boat is only for light weight crews or those with "special" knowledge. As it is, the record is very clear. Matt turns out a great product and the Blade is one hell of a boat!

John W.

Can we seduce you to post your boat report (containing both the good and the ugly) when you have caught up with family business and lost sleep ?

Ohh, what was your combined crew weight, that would be interesting as well.

Additionally, does anybody know if we can get some of the other crews like the youth to make up a report ?

Wouter

How is this beneath me. Once again, this is the Alter Cup, not the "Let's sell more F16's Cup." Setting the boats up as to alleviate any chance of a claim that they were set up to a particular sailor's style or preference was the only way to go about this. If you are too dense to understand that, then you need to step back and look at what the event is truly about. In the end, it is about the competitors and their ability to sail the boat given to them faster than the other competitors.
I have no doubt Matt built some great boats; that is not the point of my comments though. Your statement has no base, let alone any thought in it. Once again, wasted text...
I'm going to class now, maybe you and Doug should go sailing.

Actually this point makes both sides right and we were all just a bit unlucky to get such challenging conditions for the event.

If the mast-rig combo is so tunable then there is certainly an argument to be had about having only one setting for all crews. Otherwise one crew good indeed stumble on a "good fast in high wind" setting and nail the race. And lets not forget that is not uncommon for racing crews in round robin formats to mess with the boat settings before handing it over to the next crew. I think the Alter Cup committe has a strong point in keeping everything identical. In making this choice you have to decide on which settings to use before the racing starts. So what do you do ? Go for some average (10 knot) setting.

If the weather had been 7-14 knots then I'm sure the chosen mast setup would have been fine. Maybe some could have be gained by retrimming but that would only be speed oriented and not control oriented. As indicated by Mike Kranz in his quote :"On the plus side, it sailed exceptionally well in 15 knots and flat water.".

Indeed on practice day they had 8-12 knot winds and everything was fine till for the real races it got up to 14 to 20+ knots. Matt and some other crews know what can be done to adjust the boat to these conditions by some retuning but within the Alter Cup round robin format this really can't be done. Nor would that have been fair to the crews new to the boat.

I guess Matt and VWM, naturally looking to achieve the best showcase for their boats, simply got a bit of bad luck here with the winds piping up. Despite their best efforts.

Afterall you don't really want to sail a F18, A-class or Tornado in 20+ knots wind with its 10 knots rig settings either. This is just the nature of modern racing boats.

So interestingly enough both sides of the argument are right.

But indeed the interest of the Alter Cup fairness of racing could only take precedence over the business interest of VWM. Still I don't think the reports are too shabby despite this small conflict of interests.

Nor should any of us fear critical reports. No boat is perfect and if the bad points are (as of yet) only encountered in big winds and on one specific course when you are not retriming then I think we should be quite pleased with that ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


More reports please !

Wouter

Hi Doug,

sometimes this Forum can be a worry, this thread is turning sour when it started so positive <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

But anyway, in answer to your question regarding weight to be competitive one up, I have sailed one up F16 exclusively for 3 seasons at around 200 lb. and been competitive. On F16 hulls much smaller than the Blade. I think the F16 one up is the boat for BIG BOYS <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Think about the jib it is not very big, so one up crew weights similar to the lightest two up crews should be competitive, most of the power is in the main and spinnaker as long as you are sailing windward and returns.

With 2 ratchets 13 year old should be able to handle kite if she has the attitude, I have sailed against and been beaten buy a two up F16 with a 11 year old boy crew handling the kite <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> mind you their two up weight was not much more than mine, in fact I was most competitive against them in stronger winds. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

And how were the diamond wire tension and prebend changed ?

That info would complete the picture

Wouter

Tim, you miss my point. Matt was consulted by Jake and Kevin extensively before the first mast was even assembled. The mast on Matt's boat was measured carefully. They went off and did a pow-wow and came back with numbers that were then applied to the new masts. A great deal of thought appeared to go into this process, and each mast was set, changed, and then changed again. I assume, because it makes sense and I have been in Jake's shoes, that Matt's personal mast settings were taken as an extreme. Same is true of the mast rake. Rudder rake was factory pre-set and not adjustable.

I did not have a problem with the jib on the spreaders - not once. That has much to do with how you set the rotation limiter. My opinion is that the jib can hit the spreaders no matter what the mast and spreader rake setting. We found the boat to be really happy with the limiter set to where the sheeted-in jib was about an inch off the spreader. As breeze came up, we first increased the slot by moving the jib car out (not quite to the max) and then limiting mast rotation more and more, which is a critical setting on this boat.

So - you are off base, my friend, in asserting that Matt's advice was not taken somehow. For next year, I'll bet the trophy that is sitting in my living room that the same process will be followed - plus there is a pretty well-researched tuning guide already out for the Capricorn that will likely be used.

Remember - this event is about getting boatspeed out a possibly unfamiliar platform, and having consistency from boat to boat as the teams move through the rotation. You are taking misconceptions on your part, assuming them to be fact, and making conclusions. Perhaps if you were present to see the process (volunteer?), it might seem less opaque to you.

Again - glad you made it out to spectate.

There is a range of settings on every boat for any given weight range and wind range. We worked hard to hit the middle of that range based on polling different people and my experience. I made the decisions on where to set the spreader rake - which is a setting that I change on all of my boats for different weights I may sail at. The spreader rake for a 240 lb team is not going to be the same ideal spreader rake for a 310 lb team - I tried to hit the middle.

Same goes for mast rake. As far as the feel of the boat goes - if there was a setting that negatively affected it, it was probably largely due to mast rake. We had the masts standing up quite a bit because we did not anticipate 16 to 20 knots of breeze for the majority of the week.

There was no way possible to take Matt's settings and use them universally on the fleet - weight ranges were all over the place. I tried to get some good information for what the available range of each setting was and hit the middle on all of them.

Funny, I never heard one complaint about boat setup on the beach but I was getting weary of the complaints I was receiving about judicial decisions (usually from people that were not fully informed). I'm beginning to get weary of this here now.

In this tangent I copy some sailor reports about the Alter Cup as found on the forum at www.1design.net

The links to these www.1design.net threads are :

http://www.adventureonline.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=987

http://www.adventureonline.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=986

See the reply postings for the actual individual report copies.

Wouter

Source : http://www.adventureonline.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=987

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: ***Blade 16 simply a good boat***


***Blade 16 simply a good boat***

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The Blade 16 by VectorWorksMarine in Titusville is simply a good and well-made boat. There really are no complaints any different from what had been in essence said about the Inter (Nacra) 20 or Capricorn or Nacra F18, etc, etc when they first came out. At the end of the day of racing in the recent Alter Cup, speaking for Carla Scheifer and myself, all competitors genuinely liked the boat. Even in winds as high as 18-20 when she and I raced a local yacht club regatta, the boat handled well....ofcourse we sailed very carefully too, I would not recommend racing in that wind speed if you can avoid it.

The Blade 16 definately has "staying" power, and is versitle enough that a wide range of ages and weights of sailors can compete on her for either gender. The boat has very surprising upwind speed and WILL give a Nacra 20 a run for its money, plus it makes for a good option on distance races certainly in the 25-45 mile range for sure.

I highly recommend anyone or any family considering a good, well-made technologically advanced and cost effective catamaran consider the Blade 16...Matt McDonald at VectorWorksMarine did a fine job. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Mark Herendeen
_________________
Mark Herendeen
SpaceCoastSailCampaign.com
USA 850
321-863-4426

Source : http://www.adventureonline.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=986

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject:



Timbo - good seeing you there, bud. Glad we entertained.

Upwind regatta, all the way. Everyone seemed to be taking it easy on the downwind legs, with only a couple of teams trying to trap out. It was really lumpy with the fresh SE breeze, and too light once the breeze laid down and the chop flattened.

The trip up to A was awe-inspiring - boat was planing. I told JC once, after he asked how we were doing, that we only had the prop in the water. The wing mast and new daggers make the Blade a pointing machine, but with a sail plan of that size, it seemed that pinching was death. We saw Tomko short-tack the A-pin more than once only to fall back through our jib window - JC overstood everything and the acceleration was exhilarating (wheeeeeeeee!).

I’ve seen speculation elsewhere and heard on the beach that JC was vulnerable in lighter airs. I wish we’d had the chance to address that question on the race course. We took a fourth in a lighter race that saw 30-degree shifts (RC-recorded – I’m not guessing). It was nuts how fast positions were changing constantly in each leg. About 2/3rds of the way through the race, we decided to stop trying to do our own thing – we got lucky that Johnny and Katie tried to cover after we sailed a mere 20-yards into a bad shift and dropped three boats on left-side flyers (where the heck did they come from?!). We glued ourselves to the Lovell’s line and shopped their transoms for the remainder of a loooong race (Modified Course 9; Start-A-C-A-C-A-C-finish upwind). Ask some of the hotshots how easy it was to get flushed in that race. JC did the smartest thing he could have in abandoning his pride and not going for a bullet in iffy wind. By sticking close to the second-place guy, he saved his week. Lovell tried to put a boat or two between us, but he couldn't do that and still effectively cover - our positions remained unchanged and both teams took it as a throw.

There were some spectacular stuffs out there – I’m told that Roy caught one of ours and I sincerely hope he did. We buried it and JC went flying forward – ‘chute was off and I even uncleated the jib – we were on our nose for what seemed like an hour. I finally realized that Casey was in front of me and mostly submerged. I managed to climb the hill and uncleat the main – the boat sat down and leapt forward again. JC just reached up, snagged a shroud and swung back onto the boat as it shot past him, a la Spiderman. Tomko said he saw the stuff developing and just wrote us off as swimmers - he was only slightly more surprised than we were that we saved it and kept on rocking. That was our very first downwind leg – we started laughing then and just didn’t stop for the rest of the week.
_________________
John Williams
Capricorn USA 70




Eyewitness responses to JC and John's stuffing :



Robi:

John, funny that you posted that. We witnessed it from roughly 500 yards away. You guys pretty much broached huh? It was crazy, you were flying a yellow spinny, and this happened on the first day.

Yeah, that was very cool!



Terry Back :

Yep,

Everyone on the spectator boat said "pitchpole"! The spi' was flogging and next thing you know the Blade flattened out and rocked-on.

Awesome job JW/JC.



Timbo :

JW, that was an amazing recovery, we all thought you were toast! (wet toast) I was thinking there would be much more of that type thing with no foot straps. But after talking to Matt, he said when it's blowing like that, it's much faster to stay on the tramp and go deeeep.

Question, did you guys pull the boards up prior to that stuff? From where we were watching it looked like only about half the teams were pulling the boards up.

For those who were not there to see them, the new Blade daggers are much longer and skinny. They look a lot like Inter 20 boards, but are much lighter, being foam and carbon.

As you can see in that picture on the Catsailor forum, the boat has PLENTY of volume in the hulls, especially in the aft sections.



John Williams reply to question of Timbo :

Tim,

Never touched the boards - it just didn't feel like we were tripping on them at all, upwind or down. And it seems like they're built very well to take the speed and pressure we put on them. The up-hual needs to be looked at a little - I saw that some people had ripped the small fairleads off the deck. Maybe longer screws or a backing plate?

j

Source : http://www.adventureonline.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=986

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject:




I thought the best part was sailing them in big breeze, they are a lot of fun! Its a fine line downwind in deciding how much to push vs. the stuff factor, but they sailed really well. Upwind if you get your weight back you can really skip off the back of the hulls, really fun!

I wonder about how much trickier they would be in more chop. With the wind direction we had a fair about of fetch, but the Melbourne intracoastal chop is nothing compared to the Tampa area steep, nasty rollers they get. I think that would be even more interesting to try.

Matt, Jake, and Kevin did a great job in getting the boats ready and keeping them running. A number of teams were not used to the crab pots being in the way, and with the speeds we were running, the boards took a bit of a beating when snagged.

Biggest points for me:

Upwind - Dont pinch, dont pinch, dont pinch. And if I may quote Chuck, "Brian, stop pinching".

Downwind - Matter of how conservative to run.


Congrats to JC and JW. Awesome performance again.

[quote
Tim, you miss my point. Matt was consulted by Jake and Kevin extensively before the first mast was even assembled. The mast on Matt's boat was measured carefully. They went off and did a pow-wow and came back with numbers that were then applied to the new masts. [/quote]

The purpose of what this event is supposed to be about was upheld to the extreme. Jake and Kevin did an awsome job of organizing, coordinating and making this thing come off. All the boats were the same and moving from platform to platform I could not tell any difference. With very limited exception everyone getting on these boats were new to them. My hats are off to the guys who immediately got on and figured out how to make them go very fast. Being it was an unfamilliar boat to almost all, it was probably a more true Alter cup judge than a platform that some of the people may have sailed for years.

The F16 is not for every condition or everybody. In talking to the other competitors, I do believe that it supprised quite a few for the better. It is not a light weight team platform, especialy in how it was rigged.

Jake and Keven did consult with me about settings. When we went to pick up the second load of boats, they measured the mast on the spare boat. This was NOT my mast and had been set to the extreme opposite of how I set up mine, based on the reccomendations of Jay and Pease Glaser. They then made their settings even more drastic from this mast. The end result gave a mast with no pre-bend and prevented the controls (downhaul and rotation) from having very much effect in tuning the sails.

Again, my comments are not about anything to relative to this event. Big winds and waves are not a problem, but it is about what you want your sailing experience to be. If your goal is to do big offshore distance stuff, you could do it, but it would be a much more comfortable ride on a 20. For ME (read not everyone else) this makes for one of the better buoy and fun sailing boats.

John, that mast rotation causing the jib on spreader thing is something I was wondering about as well. Obviously you can do it wrong and have trouble, so like the broken mast, was it more operator error causing the jib to hit the spreaders or were the crews not rotating the mast correctly? Since you guys had no problems I would think the ones who did have problems didn't do it right.

Can you tell us what caused the mast to fail? When did that happen? Was the boat upright and racing or was it on it's side with the mast stuck in the sand?

Jake, no disrespect, as I am not aware of what goes into getting all the masts set the same, I know it is a huge job.

JW, I would much rather volunteer to help than take my 4 kids to yet another horse show, but that's where I was on Both weekends. You have only one kid, I never did, I started with twins, and then she wanted 2 more! So although I would love to volunteer more, and sail more, as you know, wife and kids seem to prevent that most of the time. I was lucky to get that one day to watch!

I admit that I was not aware that mast was not setup as per your settings...that would have changed my decision on spreader rake.

Gary:

Ashleigh has a REAL good attitude and a real trouper. She has 7 years of sailing, two years of trap time and is learning to helm now. Does not get scared if hull goes high as attached photo shows with a friend of mine on a 16.

Question:

When racing one up on Blade (or other F-16), do you race with just the main, or main and spinnaker? I bought a Mystere 4,3 to learn spinnaker on till I can get the Blade.


P.S. How about all the experts after all this get together and do a tuning guide for the newbies considering gettting one while it is fresh in everyones memory. You had a lot of different wind conditions and would really help.

Doug

Main + spinnaker

Tback:

Thanks. So it was real good I bought this little boat to learn spinnaker on before I get the Blade in 2008. Think it wll have a carbon mast by then?

Doug

Doug,

I think you could sail this boat solo at 230lbs and do just fine. The boat is very powered up.

Don't even worry about the carbon mast. This boat has an awesome aluminum wing mast. It's very light and yet durable. I was very impressed. I would not spend the money on a carbon mast for this boat.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Here an overview of the Alter Cup crew weights distribution.

John initially wrote this in another thread :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=106518&page=0&vc=1

Team Layline referred to would probably be Peter Nelson and Mike Krantz (overall 11th)




For any metric system sailors out there.

285 lbs = 129 kg
360 lbs = 163 kg
310 lbs = 140 kg

340-350 lbs = 154 - 163 kg

Wouter

Both scenarios should be fine. In fact, I've even raced with my 10 yr old, although I had to hoist the spin

In regards to jibs and spreaders: Jake set the spreader rakes after discussing it with Matt, I set the diamond wires to what Jake and I had agreed on. On practice day one jib got about a 5 inch rip poked in it. This sailed was patched by a local loft with dacron sail tape. I made dacron patches for the remaining jibs the following morning and the competitors were warned to be aware of this issue, Matt suggested that the jib really should be sheeted inside the spreader ends. On the 3rd (last) day of racing one jib was poked thru very similar to the first incident. This is the extent of the damage to the jibs.

Doug,
When sailing one up you fly both the main and spinnaker.
It is a real fun boat two up and a real adrenaline trip,
if you want to sail it on the edge, one up with the kite flying. Just the best fun you can have.....

Anyone sailing with a youngster should consider teaching them to steer the boat.
That way they are fully involved and fully committed to making the thing go.(and they get just as upset if the crew fouls up and cost them time).

The most enjoyable sailing that I have done was when my youngest son steered. Started him steering at around 8.
He would rib me for weeks if I stuffed up and it cost him in a race. Really good fun type of light hearted banter.

With the self tacking jib you can work the mainsail upwind and the spinnaker down.

Like Gary said with double ratchets you can also put them up front or swap around during the course of the race or outing.

It is quite versatile, you're not stuck in one mode of operation. You can change for conditions or just your mood and still enjoy yourself.
If you haven't done so already you should take one for a sail so you can check what I'm saying out for yourself.

Regards,
Phill

Phil:

What I have done on the 4.3 is tie a figure 8 in end of spin sheets. I have a cleat on each side of rear crossbar. Spin blocks are mounted on the corners of the crossbar (Ronstans). When wind picks up I am going to grab figure 8 and put it cleat. That will gieve me a doubler, without to much resistance. Do you think this would work on Blade? I was told a doubler would make popping chute hard. I have yet to fly it. So just going by what I was told.

As for helming I have already done some. When racing in the Wednesday nights. Rudder would not go down on one side on 17. I gave up on race and went to end of lake. Gave the helm to Ashleigh and told her to watch TeloCat and keep it under vane arm. To push and pull. Half way back she said "PAW PAW, I can feel it. I don't have to look anymore"!!! She will be a natural with a little time.

Thanks for the advice. I can wait to get a Blade!!

Doug

I always thought stop knots in the spinnaker sheets was bad juju. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

That is why I need expert opinions. I know NOTHING about them

Doug

Guys, I apologize for my attitude in a previous post - I was pretty worn out and getting hammered at work at the time. In hindsight, we probably could have made the spreader rake a little deeper. While I still am not certain about how it would have impacted the jib, I didn't fully understand that the mast I was using as a basis wasn't setup by Matt for light weight. Great event - thanks to all the competitors, MYC folks, and other volunteers like Terry, Pete, Kevin, and (you heard it right) even Noodle, for making it what it was.

Don't know what you need to apologize for ....

..you, Kevin and the Melbourne Yacht Club ran a great regatta! As far as I can tell, none of the competitors said anything about the boat setups being unfair (perhaps not optimal for conditions ... but then you'd have to change after every race to make that happen and that's not realistic).

...and who knew it was going to blow 18-20kts + for the week! Forecast for early in the week was little to no wind gradually picking up!!!

Great job!

do not use stopper knots in spin sheets.

Use a continuous spin sheet.

I have a pigtail in the middle of my spin sheet that ties to the clew of the spin and then tie the ends of the sheets together on the tramp. I would like to not do that but there is no real other way unless I upgrade the bzzz to something taperable and put eye splices in the tips then make it continuous. I originally thought I could splice eyes into the bzzz but I was wrong. Otherwise the bzzz line is great

That's what I do, and there's no problem with it - it's not really a stopper knot, because the reef knot never gets anywhere near the blocks on the beam. But you don't want completely separate sheets with stopper knots, and definitely not cleats.

Paul

Yeah, kudos to Matt, Jake, and the entire staff. This was a very smoothly run event.

I can understand Matt's frustration over the set-up. Even though the rig was in a "powered up" mode, and subsequently benefited the "fat boys", you could still see where even a little more raking of the mast would have a big impact. As it was, the downhaul depowered quite efficiently -- just not as much as you can expect in a more swept back configuration.

Guys:

I will just leave the stock system. I have a small kite. I know I can handle it and blocks are back by me, so all Ashleigh will have to do is jib.

Doug

So Guys. How about a complete tuning guide from everything that was learned? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Doug

"Team Layline" (aka Team Mondo Taco) was at 335#, not 360...

To Phills comments I would like to add that you must not forget about the "lazy F16" setup also known as "A la A-cat".

This means you leave everything off except the mainsail. Rigging is a breeze and you'll be out on the water very quickly. For some reason no reraking of the mast is necessary on the Blade, it stays pretty balance when the jib is not fitted.

It is also pretty quick. Just last saterday I gave a GPS unit to a clubmember (95 kg = 210 lbs) singlehanding his F16 this way and he score 16 knots averages both upwind and downwind. He also achieved pointing angles of 45 degrees upwind and downwind. Winds were strong that day. Later (another boat) we went out with two on the boat (total 160 kg = 350 lbs) with again only the mainsail and scored 15 knots on average upwind. The GPS batteries were flat on the downwind leg so can't tell you the speeds there, sorry.

I have myself sailed this way (mainsail only) the last couple of weekends as I'm very busy during the week and I feel very tired in the weekends. So I don't have the energy to completely rig my F16, but just through up the mainsail is something I still can handle. And even this way the F16 is great fun.

First club race is in two weeks and then I'll go fully rigged again !

In general I'm really pleased personally at how well the boat behaves in all different variations and indeed I do use all of these regulary. I'm loving it for this versatility.

Wouter

I think we must see Matts comments in the same light, at least that is how I took these postings.





It wouldn't, the phenomenon of the spreader arms hitting the jib is the result of some crews running alot of mast rotation. On F16's the mast rotation is really never rotated that much, not even in mild conditions. But then again we can't blame the crews as they were new to boats indeed !

With respect to mast rotation on F16's, John Williams appears to have the right trim as he mentioned that on their boat the spreaders were to the back of the jib. In numbers the mastrotation of the superwing mast is never more then 45 degrees of the centreline. It is pointing to the daggerboard well or behind it. In stronger winds it is even pointing to the rearbeam ending or rudderstock (less then 30-25 degrees). The spreader rake is typically 30-35 degrees, thus the tip of the spreader arm will never be more then 70 mm forward (less then 3 inches) of the mainbeam. In big wind the spreader arm tip will even be 50 mm to the rear of the mainbeam. The leech of the jib is more in front of the mainbeam then that.

On the downwind legs the jib leech will be relatively slack allowing the spreader arm to pass the leech without hanging up on it.

Still it would have been smart by the sailmaker to have put dacron patches on the jib where the spreaders are. I have personally stitched them on there myself to reduce wear when the boat is head to wind and the leech is flapping against the spreaders.

I hope this helps interested sailors/parties.

Wouter

No need, go to the F16 forum, these topics have been covered there 10's of times already. Do a search and you shall find.

Plus we must not forget that each sail from a different sailmaker needs its own individual settings. In the end of the day each crew must find the settings that work for him (as a crew) and the sail he has bought. Can't really give an uniform tuning sheet for different crews and sail makes.

Wouter

335 lbs = 152 kg. You guys will not have been unhappy at all ! That is quite a good crew weight for the F16, especially in those winds. 140 kg = 310 lbs is most likely the centre of the optimal crew weight range, when taken over a wide range of conditions. 10 kg (25 lbs) extra is not significant enough to make a noticeable difference. Personally I believe (based on results) that 125 kg - 155 kg (275-340 lbs) is the range a racing (doublehanded) F16 crew is looking for. With the 125 kg crews being just as disadvantaged as the 155 kg crews.

Personally I raced up to 170 kg (375 lbs) and felt in the game.

Wouter

Source : http://www.adventureonline.tv/phpBB2/vie...sc&start=15



Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:08 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stank, two words 4u. "The General"

Tad, it's a fun boat. I especially liked sailing it contra o vento. Matt's done a great job with the boat. I was impressed. I also enjoyed working the main! It has plenty of power, and is a joy to sail.

No matter what JW says, he did an excellent job on the boat, rock solid. I fed off of his positive attitude, and he was a focused dervish on adjustments and housekeeping. He gave me excellent info that I could trust and base our tactics on, which allowed me to focus on making the boat perform. It truly was a team effort.

I can't count how many times upwind he said,
"you can go anytime..............anytime boss........I think we're there.........um......" A minute later we'd be yelling, "weeeeeeeeeee....." coming into A mark.

Good times
F

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Return questions by Terry Back :


JC,

JW also mentioned that you tended to overstand each layline ... can you provide insight if this was a strategy for you.




Answer back by John Casey


Sure Terry,

It was nice to see you there helping out. That is what it is all about. Thanks for being there.

I didn't always overstand, and sometimes tacked inside of other boats, but when we were controlling the fleet we didn't take any chances to short tack it. If I didn't feel any pressure from the boats behind us I overstood. On that particular boat, footing felt so good, although it would sail in a good range upwind. It was just plain fun to overstand and come screaming into A. It also gives you a good angle coming around the mark for a smoother transition, and with not much bow that was important.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we also have the report by both people on the winning team. John Casey and John Williams.

This probably completes the reporting on the Alter Cup 2007 and the boat used in that event, the Blade F16.

It is time to let this discussion die and focus on the path towards the Alter Cup 2008 and the boat used then, AHPC Capricorn F18.

Best of luck to all the aspiring teams for 2008


Wouter

Due to the "3 Post in procession limit " all of your postings are now rated at zero. Go to the Marine store and enter yourself in the new "Anonandon Patonback" treatment syndrome course.......And repeat," Hi ho ,hi ho the F16 will blow." 9 out of 10 sailors put there credit cards back in there wallets after visiting the F16 forum......... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So THAT's how you get over 6000...

Now that is actually a good thing, that is progress. In the past they used to just kill themselfs immediately after visiting the F16 forum. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

(Nothing creates contempt like succes !)