why?

I have a tremendous amount of respect for all the tybee participants, and the list of those that are through the surf shows that the top teams are the ones that can handle the gnarly conditions, but still, why? Why not wait a day, furthermore, why even make people come crashing onto the beach or through the surf. To prove they are good sailors or racers or survivaists. I would suggest that a good MARINER would not put his/her vessel in such peril when given the choice not to. We all invest a lot of time and money in our boats and I have hard time seeing why start and finish lines for this particular distance race need to be on the beach rather than just offshore as in many other distance races, or why a start would even occur in such conditons......

flame on

charlie

Its hard to explain. I suppose I'd agree with you had I never been on the beach and done the race myself.

I can't explain it, but sitting here behind my computer, makes me want to go try it even more.

I can imagine the dicussion Trey and I would be having before the start.

Me: "Dude you sure about this? We don't have a spare mast"

Him: "cmon old man we're gonna do this"

Me: "Ok, but you're gonna get a 'I told you so' if we don't make it."


As for the start/finish lines. Getting boats out on the ocean at every stop would be quite difficult, plus launching and finishing in the surf is PART of the race. If you take all the danger out of it, its not going to ever be the same again.

I agree with that. It's up to the race organizers as to how they want this thing. Are they looking to attract more extreme sailors, or more general racing sailors? What do they feel is the target number of participants?

All these things come in to play long before people show up.

If they want something for the "mere mortals", they'd put in a lay day (so they could delay a leg based on conditions), or design the route so that you'd finish near an inlet (or on the intracoastal side of the inlet) to minimize surf damage.

But what fun would that be to watch? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll be the first to admit that its not a race for everyone. The participants know what the race is all about, and what can happen. Between that and the logistics/cost of the race, no wonder only 13 teams show up.

I think to answer the question you must understand the history of this race and its predecessor the 1000. The race was run in the early days as a continual trek up the coast with teams landing to rest on the boat and returning to the water when ready. Had check points that were mandatory but no plush hotel rooms to rest in. The race continued regardless of conditions and was won by the first boat to land in NC. No daily times and corrections for this or that just flat out get there as fast as you could. Conditions such as todays would make me think add an extra crew member and go. I have never entered this race but had hoped to this year and was told I couldn't enter with my boat since it wasn't truely an F18. It appears now that it wouldn't have mattered since only one F18 is actually racing. Maybe next year the race comittee will see it differently!

Everything is fine ...Until somebody makes it through the Surf. Then all the rest of the fleethave to follow. It is a race!

I have followed the Worrell and the Tybee closely over the years. In fact my Boat wa lent to Mark Murray and Tommy Gonnzales for the last W 1000.

If the race was still being run w/o starts and on anything under 20' than I could understand the gung ho attitude. But the event has evolved into one of if not the premier mulithull race in north america.

First let me say that I am a lifelong and die hard multi sailoor who practically grew up on a stiletto. Iam also however a resident of RI and get lots of exposure through working as a rigger and just general New England sailing to the "Yachty" community is alternately excoriated and coveted on this forum. Here is what I here from them. "What kind of a disrespectful idiot would drive there boat up on the beach at 20 kts".. To which i would usually reply, what kind of an idiot would strap a ton of lead to 400 pound boat thus guaranteeing its sinking in the event of a minor collision...etc,etc. Still I feel that they have a point here. You dont need a RC boat at every start and finish. All you need is a 15 foot boston whaler to go and set a pin between the RC on the beach and the pin at sea. Allow the racers to cross the line and then make it back to shore as safely and SEAMANLY as possible.. It just seams totally unnecessary to go crahing $20,000 worth of equipment into the ground(literally) to try and save a few seconds. Even if it was an untimed event, than a boat with a two minute lead could gently cruise into the beach rather than sail full bore into it in order to save precious seconds!

It is hard to explain b/c it SUCKS!!! No getting around it. After you spend 10 or so hours on the same side of the boat on the wire, you butt hurts, your hands are tired and your feet are falling asleep. However, the adrenaline burn you get while rounding something like Cape Hatteras with all the people watching and the mayhem going on around you (monster pissups and capsizes)... it can't be replicated anywhere else.

Leaving the beach on the outer banks when it's blowing 35+ off shore doing a close reach on the edge of disaster, but consistently clocking HIGH 20's (bouncing off 30's) while the boat makes these insane howling noises and does what we call the "inter 20 wheelie" It is something that can never be described and has to be experienced to truly appreciate.

Oh... the night legs... there is no describing that. I'll throw this at you. 2am, 18 miles offshore of Myrtle Beach, double trapped at 25mph and only a couple of hours ago, you rounded a rock jetty that you couldn't see in the dark with the spinnaker up... after dodging fishing boats and sand bars...

However..... you have to be able to appreciate something like this to enjoy it.... ie. it's not for everyone. I still don't like tropical punch gatoraid!! Would I do it again? YES, in a second!! (however next time as a skipper or with a better skipper)

All of that sounds awesome and totally worth it, except for the starts and finishes. Any offshore race, hell any offshore sailing, especially at night is exhilarating and fundamentally dangerous. It is the starts and finishes that kills me. I just dont get why that is necessary. The only thing taken away from the event, in my mind, is the reckless destruction of gear and the unneeded endangerment of racers. You would get the Inter 20 "wheelie" if that was the start or not, you still have to get out there. Why not let people get on/off the beach in as seamanlike manner as possible w/o penalizing their finish.

Let me re-iterate it clearly.

Because that is what the race is. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to sail in it. We all think its a boat load of fun. You don't and thats fine. It is what it is.

Gear can be fixed and bottoms can be refinished. Its all part of doing the race.

Lol, I know your boat, we towed Mark and Tommy to shore when they broke their mast. I watched the stick crumple and had to coax the "skipper" into stopping for them.

It isn't for everyone and I don't think it's meant to be for everyone. Like Maug said, "if you don't like it, don't do it". It's the truth. It's a spin off of the original race and I think the beach landings and night legs were keeping in the spirit of the original race's challenges.

I think there are two big reasons.

1. It gains media attention with the beach starts and finishes. It's a place everyone can easily gather to see the action

2. It would be a logistical nightmare to start the race on the oceanside if you didn't force teams to go through the surf. If they sailed through a line between a bouy and the shore most teams on bad days would then continue a long way to an inlet somewhere to take their boat out rather than risk coming ashore and breaking something. Getting out would be the same issue. Teams would end up sailing a long way to get to the start line. A team might get a tow out from a powerboat. Then other teams wouldn't have access to the powerboat and complain. Then getting the mark out there on bad days would be really hard. You would have to set it way offshore to be clear of the waves. The committee would have a hard time seeing the whole line and calling over early boats.

I don't like it either but it does make sense. I don't know if I would have risked going out this morning. I never saw conditions that bad the year I did it. Somehow I feel a little cheated. ???

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Its one place the in this politically correct world where a sailor can push himself to the max and let physics sort out the best from the good with no apologies and no excuses.

Regards,
Bob

This race sounds fantastic.
As my friend says.
Most people wake up and get out of bed and get dressed and then get in the closet. At the end of the day they get out of the closet, get undressed have a shower and go to bed....or you can go outside AND LIVE!

It's one race among 100s you can go do anytime you want. WHY would you want to change it to be like all the rest. The danger is a huge part of these races and why many of us do them. Just like Tad said it ain't for everybody don't try to change it to make it for you.
This kind of post inevitably gets posted(not usually by anyone who was in the race) everytime a race is held in any kind of extreme condition.I was at Jensen and kept trying until they told us we'd be disqualified if we tried again.I applaud the RC decision to stick to their guns in the sense that they didn't backpedal on their decision and keep anyone from competing.
Todd

Ok, Ok, Get out the measuring stick. i never saidit wouould not be fun and am not even opposed to participating. Just wondering why people thaought it was sooooo essential . sheesh

I think Mike hit on a good reason why it is essential logistically. It does make for a pretty exciting start/finish to watch that you just don't see every day. How often are you going to come to the beach at high speed with the kite up on the wire?

The Iron Man of Catsailing. If you can't get off the beach correctly you lose. You have to sail the boat in such a way that you push every limit yet preserve the equipment ala NASCAR, you get pit stops to lick your wounds and refuel.
Bad butt concept, bad butt sailors.... One day....

I think the saying USED to go...

"Iron sailors, plastic boats"

I know this thread was just to provoke a response but...The boats are called beach cats...

I have been sailing on the ocean for 17 years. The hardest part of sailing a beach cat is getting the boat off the beach. Once you are out there, it is easy.

PS: thanks for all who showed up at the party. It was a lot of fun. My wife even enjoyed it.

Craig,
Thanks for having all of us over.

Pictures from the start are now up in Velocity's photo gallery. There are some pictures from just about every team.

It is true I was trying to get a response. I hope that the Tybee continues to raise the profile of our sport. Perhaps, as yachting in general focuses on faster boats sponsors will line up enough dough to cover the costs of equipment and such. Of course that leads to another danger, having the Tybee become a "pro" event. I'll leave that for another thread and see if anyones back gets up. Great to see a Dutch team coming over and doing so well!!!

Free will, man

my new mantra...

Haha I love that pics.

Can't help but notice; you have the same vantage point I do. . . m'am. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I agree with Charlie and have wondered the same thing about the Round Texel. Lots of boats get smashed up getting of the beach and they have a start line.

Why not use a jet ski to get boats off the beach when its rough? Its more a matter of luck and timing than sailing abililty. I dont think getting out part adds anything to the race.

Sad that we wont see you on the line then.

Bou', are you at home or at the race site? You aren't accepting private messages.

Luck and timing! Are you kidding? Sailing out thru surf like that takes skill and perserverance. Only a lake sailor could make a statement like that! I've had my 18 standing on its stearns in large surf more than once and never lost it. Been fully airborne in the first set. Its a total rush! This style of racing takes more skill and talent than circling bouys ever could! Plus the I20 can take it, built like a locomotive.

Not that I have ever done it and not sure I have the balls to ever do it BUT seems like if you could find a way to glue yourselves (BOTH skipper and crew) to the bows with 5200 and steer by a combo of dragging your feet in the water and using the sails (with a new mid-bow main sheeting system) you might just make it out through the waves consistently. oh, how about a nice "bob" hobie style on the n20 mast.. well.. ok... how about mast/boat/crew/skipper airbags?

"WE GOTTA GO!"
-Mike Worrell

Why??? If you have to ask you probably cannot understand, but quite simply "for the challenge"!! These sailors care little for the things an average person (or sailor for that matter) can accomplish. They are a rare breed that longs to push well beyond their comfort zone and face challenges where success or failure is secondary to the need to find ones limits and constantly stretch them further. Mind you I am not saying it makes them better (or worse) than others who prefer to walk the beaten path....just different.

I intensly hope to join their ranks next year!! My only fear is of looonngg boring drifters!!

Tip.... on a light air day, NEVER look at the "Time to destination"... I mean NEVER!!! At one time during the Worrell, I looked at it while laying on the leward hull... We were estimated to get there ~2hrs after the start of the next leg.

The drifters are what they are. Theres only so much you can do about them. When we started drifting, I turned off the GPS to save battery, and to save sanity.

However, what you said about comfort level is spot on. I can't tell you how exhillerating it was flying through the ocean at 1AM in the pitch black after the wind had finally picked up, scooting past the end of Sebastian inlet by 15 feet because we never saw it, having to tack when we smelled dead fish because we couldn't see the beach.... ALL past my "comfort level" but something that I'll remember forever as being the one of the most exciting, exhillerating experiences of my life.

Its not for everyone.

Certainly not for me. I remember an article written by Jack sammons, sailing off the East coast of Florida, in pitch black conditions. He noticed a set of lights one red, the other green, that kept getting further and further apart,yet closer and closer! Obviously he lived to tell the tale.

I think one of the coolest things had to be sailing at night with the kite up on the wire. The phosphorescence was awesome!! You would have lit green water flying from the bows and bouncing across the deck.

From the wire you could see the foils and they would be lit up green underwater leaving a trail behind us. Many people considered the night legs to be crazy, but... it is soooo a part of the experience that I will NEVER forget!

Rounding the second jetty and suddenly hearing spinnakers and boats around us that we did not know were there... oh, it gets me rilled up just thinking about it!!

Don't stop in Tybee boys, there's 500 more to go!!

I'd love to do it....I think its a great race.

there are those days when you are thinking "holy crap, we are at the limit!" and then you hit the beach and say "Man! That was awesome!"

..... and then the ground crew grabs the boat and you can't keep up with it as it's rolling up the beach

I swear thats me everytime.

They seem to be keeping up a tradition, but they are using boats these days that don't look very well suited for surf sailing. Maybe the giant jib on a TheMightyHobie18 is there to help get out thru the surf. the little jibs on the boats in the videos don't look like they are helping to pull the boats out thru the waves much.
from the video it looks like they are hoping those particular conditions never manifest. Certainly there are not many oportunities to practice sailing an inter 20 thru formitible surf w/onshore winds. the economics of destroying I20's for practice during training dosen't add up either.
some of the skippers didn't seem to understand the importance of being as far forward as possible when the gnarly breaker hits. or they knew about it, but didn't do it. having broken maybe 1/2 a dozen hobie cat masts in the 70's it's tough to blame the guys that did flip over backwards tho.
it's kinda funny that cats were surf sailing and jumping waves before anyone ever thought of a windsurfer, but now cat surf sailing is most rare. sad that mostly only the carnage aspects of cat surf sailing gets displayed these days. of course you are going to get mostly carnage trying to surf sail a racing cat tho. just watch the 70's video sharing the wind if you want to know why people surf sail cats, or look at old fotos of the worrell guys on H16s blasting out thru the surf w/ a reefed main and no jib.

They seem to be keeping up a tradition, but they are using boats these days that don't look very well suited for surf sailing. Maybe the giant jib on a TheMightyHobie18 is there to help get out thru the surf. the little jibs on the boats in the videos don't look like they are helping to pull the boats out thru the waves much.

I agree with the above statement. That's why I still like the overall versatility of my Nacra 6.0na. A huge jib, and hulls that cut more than plane over the waves on the beach. Using the sails to steer until out past the last sand bar, etc.

Here is a pic of my snuffer on my 6.0.

NO longer gets trashed and obliterated in a low hanging bag under the bow foil.

little slow on my response to this, but if the guy that is leading you goes, then you have to go. Jake and I went thru some surf at Cocoa(i think) like that. 2 attempts to get out, and the second time we REALLY didnt want to do it again, but you just have to. Thats what this race is about, sailing to and sometimes above what you think is your limits, thats what its about. It's a sailors Everest, and dont you think that Everest is above everyones limit? We jokingly had 3 goals the first year...
1 Survive, 2 finish, 3 not finish last, in that order. We accomplished all 3, Everest as defeated.
When the race official says either trailer your boat and be DSQ'd, or sail, and you have spent 10,000 dollars to be there, and its been your goal for years, and you know you have the equipment and possibly the skill...then you go.

The 6.0 may have larger jib and rudders, but once through the surf, I'd much rather be on the I20. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not if Mark Ederer were sailing that 6.0... more than once I've seen him leave them I20 boat for boat.

Don't discount a well sailed 6-meter, oh no...

Jib reaching, I'd rather be on the 6.0

All other points of sail, the I20 is much more comfortable, and much faster downwind.

You are stud sailing that big beast all by yourself! Did you to do that for the photo op or is that your regular deal?


Bill

Why ?
In the words of my 2year old daughter :
"Because I MUST !"

If we had a race of this nature where I live, I`d be signing up first. Then again, better pick a disposable boat with the coastline we have.
The best race we have is a 50mile sprint to the end of Cape Point and back.

Also the delayed starts because Baboons have stolen everything shiny on your boat and if you found a beach at night you would be lucky to drag the crunched up remnants of fibre glass courtesy of the local white sharks then finally the carcass of your crew you salveged from the shark attack now has to be sacrificed to the lions and Hyenas and then you'll probably be adopted by "Madonna".Do you need proof of insurance for this one! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If we had a race of this nature where I live, I`d be signing up first. Then again, better pick a disposable boat with the coastline we have.
The best race we have is a 50mile sprint to the end of Cape Point and back. [/quote]

Heh, Bob you`ve obviously been here...

The Baboons aren`t a problem until you get closer to Cape Point, just don`t beach there. That`s not really an issue since you can`t really, most of the point is vertical rock into the sea, only a few beaches along the course. Small problem - no road access to these beaches, if you had to land here the only way off is to sail off, or carry the boat up 100m steep ravines covered in bush. But it would be quite easy as the boat would be in pieces, anyway, if you tried to sail it up the beach.
The sharks are less of a problem than you think - they prefer the taste of kayaks, and surfers are also high on the menu. Catsailors don`t feature much on their list of favourite foods, we even rank below seals.
The lions and Hyenas, no problem, they don`t like swimming.
Madonna, well now you have me nervous..

Forecast for this weekend looks promising, 37-39mph winds with 5-7m swell on Saturday, Sunday starting off at 47mph and dropping off to a mere 29mph by 6pm. With rain. Gotta love winter - think I`ll go windsurfing at Shark Bay instead, bit too much breeze for sailing a cat.

On the subject of Shark Bay, please visit www.savesharkbay.org and help stop the destruction of a beautiful piece of natural land in Langebaan Lagoon, South Africa (image attached). Just register at the site, and lodge an objection, not difficult. [img]http://www.savesharkbay.org/Photos/tabid/1208/ctl/SlideShow/mid/2096/ItemID/1375/Default.aspx[/img]

Sorry never made it Steve it has been on my list though and we are barraged about documentaries over Suid Afrika . Saw a show the other night about the cape troop took anything they wanted including a baby out of a hut and wicked confrontation in somones car next to child in the child seat mother got bit good. Thought about stickin one up in the mango tree during the season but my grandfather once owned a banana farm in Brazil then he owned a monkey farm ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I rarely sail solo on my 6.0. It was very light air that day. A few sailing friends helped me rig/breakdown the mast.