Submissions to ISAF

I read with interest the lobbying that went ahead when the US cat sailing community got wind of US Sailing's proposal to ISAF to omit Cat sailing from the Olympics. As I recollect, the lobbying was sucessful and the submission was ammended before it got to ISAF. IS THIS CORRECT?

The reason that i ask, is that the RYA [GBR governing body] have quietly submitted to stop supporting cat sailing at olympic level and get rid of it totaly at youth level. This has outraged the UK cat sailors and we are trying to decide what to do. Methinks that we are too late to get it withdrawn.
Any advice?

Mike Grandfield (the US Tornado Class President) is the guy behind the protest in the US. He would be the one to talk to about the logistics of a protest.

However, since the ISAF Meeting is in November, you might be too late.

Go with a grass roots movement. Let's schedule all multihull races at the same venue and dates as Opti, Laser and 420 regattas.

The kids will see how fast and powerful multihulls are (and how good looking the boats and crew are!), and the rest will fall into place....

ISAF changed the schedule for submissions such that the previous US submission became irrelevant. That provided the breathing room needed to do some lobbying before the latest submission was penned. Submissions are currently due for the November meeting of the ISAF Events Committee, where the events (NOT the equipment) for the 2012 Games will be discussed and voted upon. My understanding is that submissions can be amended up to and including the meeting date, should the RYA delegation wish to do so. The trick is getting them to see a reason to change their mind.

Good luck, mate - don't give up, keep your cool, present reasoned counterpoint and you'll get where you need to be. Make sure you understand the RYA delegation's position; check out http://www.sailing.org/15189.php for agendas and past minutes.

And dont forget to mobilize so the RYA understands the numbers behind catamaran sailing. Setting up an online petition like Mr Young did is probably a very good move. You can probably find much you can use in his text. Things need to happen fast if you are to succeed.

Why didn't you find out before now? Come to think about it, I have not seen my own national assoc. submission.. Hmm..

Why do I get the impression that NAs think multihulls are the ones who should be dropped now that the IOC is putting the pressure on? Are we still the stepchildren of sailing in their minds?

All MNA Submissions are here:
http://www2.sailing.org/meetings/2007_Submissions.htm

I think the guy at Edison Sailing Center would be glad to have us.

Interesting. The US omits windsurfing and the UK omits multihulls and keelboats (but leave an open slot unspecified per gender). Both endorse both two person dinghies and two person high performance dinghies.

I would have thought there was a stronger case for a single two person dinghy class per gender in order to allow both windsurfing and keelboats.

Also interesting is the Tornado Association's claim that 1/4 of all racing worldwide is in multihulls. Is that credible?

And it does appear that the RYAs submission is already locked down. I seem to recall that the strategy of multihull sailors in the US was to petition either ISAF or the IOC directly to have the US submission thrown out. Someone will have a better memory than me about this.

I always found it funny to see so many different but basically the same dinghy classes at the Olympics.

What is the difference between a Laser and a Europe ? Come to think of it what is the REAL difference between a 49-er and a 470 ?

If one would have :

A dinghy
A keelboat
A windsurfer
And a multihull

then yes, you would have 4 sufficiently different sailing craft in your olympics. Make it gender specific and you have 8 classes. What on earth is the added value of having a Laser AND a Europe class at the olympics. Sailors from either class can easily switch from one to the other.

To me the Olympics are an example of one of the worst kinds of bureaucracy. Powerful as hell, but also as dumb as I don't know what.

Wouter

Wouter,

switching from a Laser to Europe (the latter is not an olympic class anymore) is not trivial. The Laser is one design, which require one design sailors as well.
The same goes for the 470 and the 49er, different techniques and skills are needed in addition to the skills all sailors need. Surely you are playing the devils advocate here?

Can you tell us about the skills required for the 470 that are not required by the 49er or other classes? (I haven't sailed either).

Do you consider that the skills required to sail a 470 are sufficiently distinctive and worth competing on that they make it less important to have a competition that tests the skills involved in sailing a catamaran? If a cat sailor wanted to go to the Olympics and there was no Olympic multihull, what class would you suggest they aim for? The 49er?

Wow
9/21/2007 7:22 am
I agree with Wouter

I can take one example. Spi handling: The 49er have a big assymetric on a bowsprit. The 470 have a symmetric spi on a regular pole. Handling these two different sails require different skills.



Did you get the impression that I somehow tought cats are inferior to monos? If you did, of course I dont think so. The IOC and ISAF have a whole set of criteria for selecting olympic classes, which leads to "interesting" decision like the Yngling as the ladies keelboat. Do I like it? No. Do I think the rules for selection to be quite good? Yes. As a sidetrack, I wonder how the 49er came to be an olympic class? Anyway, what I do know is that the selection is a political process, not neccesarily a rational process.
If a cat sailor wanted to go olympic and there was no cat event, what do I think he should choose? The class he tought he had the best chance of winning in of course. What class would that be? I would think the Star class out of the current classes. Why? Becouse the rig is so highly tuneable, but he could probably be just as well/badly off in any of the other classes. The skills developed in the 470 on the other hand would make him attractive on largish monohulls afterwards.. As you understand, I have a pretty broad view on the olympic classes. I dont think it really matters that much which class you decide to try in and which you come from as you will spend insane amounts of time in the boat to become good enough anyway. Perhaps the windsurfer would be a notch harder than the rest come to think of it..

Farking Hell - Wouter you done it again , the important bit of the thread is in its name , submissions to ISAF , you can argue other stuff elsewhere , its shocking that a nations representative body can put in such a sweepingly biased submission in such an under hand manner and in such a way perhaps its too late to do something about it.

Its time we get together and do something about it , dont forget every uk sailor is part of the funding stream of RYA uk as such we should have a voice ,I think theres a lot more of us than they consider , otherwise they wouldn't have even considered wiping out youth cat sailing .

Sorry about that.

Wouter

I spent some time going through the submissions. Either I missed something (major), or I'm pretty shocked that no one has mentioned that the vast majority of MNA submissions don't really talk about multiple classes, especially multihulls. Most of them seem really short. Did I miss something?

Mike

Agree. Many of these submissions almost seem guaranteed to be unrepresentative of their national membership (women's keelboat sailing is not the only kind of sailing done in NZ).

Makes sense. One question: what crew for the dinghy and multihull: singlehanded or doublehanded? Having both would mean two more classes and four events.

If choosing strictly by Olympic philosophy (best man/woman wins), singlehanding is mandatory. Also, the equipment should be as popular and simple as possible. My hypothetical list would be:

Kite
Windsurfer
Singlehanded dinghy (with asymetric spi)
Singlehanded multihull (with asymetric spi)

It would not be easy for old minds to accept, but makes perfect Olympic sense.

The rest of us can go to any of the hundreds of venues available everywhere. In this scenario, the World Championships would receive more atention from ISAF and would become more important than the Olympics - as they should be!

Oh yeah!!

I started to reply to your pre-edited version, but you've anticipated my comment <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now we can resume the F17/F16 debate! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ohh yeah !




Ooops! I'm doing it again aren't I ?

Sorry

Wouter

Since you posted a cool photo, you are forgiven. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Luiz, per your comment: "If choosing strictly by Olympic philosophy (best man/woman wins), singlehanding is mandatory."

I'm not aware of any Olympic rule that says anything about all the events needing to be singlehanded. Here are some examples, I'm sure there are many, many others:

2-man bobsled
4-man bobsled
various relay races (running, swimming, etc.)
team events (gymnastics)
figure skating pairs
curling
ice hockey
basketball

I'd say that sailing falls into the bobsled-ish category. Athletes are riding a piece of equipment, there are many forms of the equipment. Some are single-handed, others are teams: luge, several bobsled sizes, and whatever that insane thing is where you go down head-first!

I think it would be cool to see team racing, as that gets advertised as the fastest-growing segment of sailing.

If they are really concerned about raising the number of women, instead of open, they could have co-ed teams in one or more of the classes. Require one person from each team to be male, the other female, like in the pairs skating.

Mike

I guess the original Olympics consisted exclusively of individual challenges, but you are right, there's no rule excluding teams or giving preference to individual events.

I picked the original "best man/woman wins" criteria and stuck to it. In my opinion, individual venues are clearer and more definitive. You know precisely who is the best, who is the current hero.

If you win a medal rowing with eight other guys, are you the "best rower"? Not necessarily. Your's is the best team, but if that other guy replaced you, wouldn't they win the same? And wouldn't a combination of rowers from the second and third places make an even better team? You never know for sure.

Now, if you win in a single skiff, there's no possible doubt.

If the international rowing asociation (or whatever they call it) would be forced to downsize to two classes, the obvious choices would be the single skiff and single canoe.

Likewise, if ISAF would be forced to downsize the Olympic sailing event, I think they should focus more on the individual classes, that are also cheaper and more popular. The IOC is already heading this way, so we'd rather start this discussion now, least "our leaders" decide it all among themselves.

Thanks for explaining this a little more Luiz. I can't say that I share your view about the direction the Olympics are headed, but it is an interesting point.

As for team sports, the point is NEVER about which INDIVIDUAL is best, it's about the TEAM. If an athlete wants to see if HE ALONE is the best, he should compete as an individual.

Of course, many teams have crashed and burned after losing a key player, that's the nature of it. There's "team chemistry" and lots of other factors. Especially when there are only two people on the team, a change can have major implications. You can't easily replace your partner that you've practiced with for four years, etc.

I'm in favor of continuing to have both individual and team events, gives us "spectators" the best of both worlds to appreciate.

Mike

The short tutorial on Olympic Math from someone who knows:

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Paul Henderson: Sailing and the 2012 Olympics

To Fellow Buttheads:
I trust you will take the following biased opinion as being from a recently excommunicated "Pope of Sailing" and also a Member of the IOC. The IOC, in their wisdom, set the maximums for the 2012 London Games at 28 sports, 300 events, and 10,500 athletes. Here is what that means for sailing:

1) On sailing being kicked out of the Olympics:
Each sport is voted on by the 120 Members of the IOC, and it takes 50% +1 to remain Olympic. For the vote on events to be held at the London 2012 games, sailing received over 70% support. Of the sports that were dropped for 2012, Baseball got 35% and Softball 50% (missing the +1). Rugby 7's and Squash were voted on to replace the two deleted sports. However, they got only approx. 35% of the vote so were not admitted. The result is that there will be only 26 sports for London and a slot for 500 more athletes and two missing events. Several years ago a tabloid polled 100 of the movers and shakers of the Olympics who were asked the question: “What sports should remain in the Olympics?” Amongst these people, sailing ranked 8th, tying with Soccer out of the 33 sports, which included the "wanabees". By the way, Sailing is the sport the now IOC President started in as he rose up the IOC ladder. Long story short, sailing looks solid.

2) On sailing being promoted on TV during the Olympics:
Of the 28 sports, 14 get minimal TV. Sailing is one of them. Nothing sailing does will ever change this. Sailing is a participatory sport. However, Sailing was the number 5 sport in Olympic hits on the Internet. That is our medium and to prostitute the integrity of the sport for some "pie-in-the-sky" TV dream is ridiculous.

3) On sailing needing more countries competing in the Olympics:
Sailing gets close to 60 nations, which places it in the top half of the 28 sports. Sailing has had over 20 countries win medals in the last several Olympics, which is excellent, and shows how broad-based our sport is. This statement has many facets, as sailors must be sent by their National Olympic Committee (NOC). The Sailing authority has little power, including US Sailing Assn (USSA) and the Canadian Yachting Assn (CYA). Many countries have much more restrictive policies than the ISAF standard imposed by the IOC. While USA, by an act of congress, must send any athlete who qualifies (after years of fighting Canada also), many European countries will not send a competitor unless they are ranked in the top 8 countries. Even if you have 40 countries allowed in the Laser, it does not matter to the Europeans. If you are not in the top 8, you’re not going. How many countries can you fit into the top 8?

The emerging countries have difficulty qualifying at major regattas, so ISAF fills with these countries. I personally took on this responsibility to take the flak. The truth is that if a sailor could get their NOC to send them, then we could find a slot in the Laser and Boards. In the other classes, possibly only one competitor in each class was ever discarded. At 400 sailors and 11 classes, it was a minor inconvenience.

4) The 2012 Games: 10 Events, 380 sailors and more Women:
ISAF received the 11th event for 2000, which put the Star back in with the agreement that the event would be used in Athens 2004 for the Women's Keelboat. ISAF agreed that we would go back to 10 for London 2012. There is really no need, but the IOC is holding ISAF to the agreement (too bad for the UK - the premier sailing nation). Dropping 1 class and going down from 400 to 380 really means each remaining class gets more, as each of the now 11 events has each more than the 20 sailors deleted. In Savannah 1996, the women were at 19%. The IOC demands each sport be over 30%. In Athens 2004, sailing had over 35% women. Sailing is hitting this target, and any class changes will not be touching this requirement.

Having pontificated on the above, lets get to my bias on the classes. Sailors sail boats and that should be the criteria, not the equipment (classes). People and the sport should be the focus. ISAF does not pick classes per se. The classes are only the equipment used in a specific event. Sailing, like most sports, dictates the size and shape of the athlete done by the equipment selected. Sailing must pick the classes that allow sailors of all size and gender to compete. Singlehanded sailing is very restrictive on the size of the sailor as it dictates a narrow band of physique. I am also accused of being adamant that the sport is "Sailing" not "Air Rowing" (as the boardsailors do). Justifiably so! Therefore I would consider the following for the 10 classes:

1) There must be 4 classes where the women can compete: Single, Double, Keel, Mixed Doubles.
2) The Finn, Star, Women's Keelboat must remain so as to have classes which are geared to larger body shapes.
3) Cats and Skiffs should be sailed as Kinetics is of minimal help. Sailing is the sport! I would have a skiff for men and another for the women. I would also have two Cats - one high performance and the other mixed doubles.
4) The Laser is unchallenged for men and women.

If there are any slots left then let others, and they will, decide. There is another issue that must not be forgotten. Sailing is one of the Summer Sports, which is accessible to the disabled in the Paralympics. It is essential the keelboats remain so the facilities are in place for these wonderful, challenged sailors.

Paul Henderson
Ex Everything Else

Thanks for posting that Bob, I had forgotten about this article. I am amazed at the support and numbers given for sailing, since "Joe Couch Potato" in the US wouldn't even consider it a sport, and the vast majority of people I know (outside of sailing) are shocked it's in the Olympics at all... and I live within an hour of Newport, RI...

I guess my point is, thank GOD television numbers aren't used to determine "popularity" beacuse at least in the US, the reason it's so hard to find Olympic sailing events televised is because the networks know what sells Joe Couch Potato and what doesn't...

Mike

A lot of sense in the article overall, but this seems a little defeatist, at least for high performance skiffs and cats. We all know how exciting the sport is for the participants. Seems a little innovation is required to convey that on the screen (of course it does require a good breeze, which could be problematic in 08).

Channel 7 (iirc) in Australia has done some pretty good stuff with the 18 footers -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxRgaJJ86_8&mode=related&search=

(I even recognize the location <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)