A-class with wing sail!?

The wing sails has reached the A-class, good or bad?
The wing weights around 25 kg and cost lots of dollars!
It will be interesting to se how it performs at the A-class worlds.


/hakan

I didn't think a rigid wing was legal for the modern A class. Is it?

It seems to me that it would be bad for the class if it is faster, it would run far to expensive for your average guy.

But it would put alot of nice A-class on the market and then I could own one.


IT is very cool!

It is legal to sail with a rigid wing right now but it might be banned keep the class alive and healthy. The cost of such a wing is probably around 50 000 dollars....

/hakan

I wonder if one person can rig and unrig the boat without assistance.

GARY

I would much rather see them pursue foils than wing masts. Much more speed bang for the buck, not to mention the ability to put them on the trailer vs. that huge wing.

I wonder why (any sailmakers please chime in here) someone has not developed some type of an inflateable wing sail, sort of like the parasail, only on it's side, that could be run up a conventional mast, with inflatable battens, more camber and more of a true wing shape, collapsable for storage too, made of mylar or a coated nylon.

It's a "fad"

Hei Håkan,

nice looking wing! Wonder if the wing will have a slot and wether it can twist like Cogito and the other C-classers?
It will be interesting to the extreme seeing how this package do at the worlds. The only true test of wing efficency vs wingmast with soft sail we have had in the later years was in the 18square class. If I remember correctly, that boat (Wild Turkey) was 'out tacked' the one time it was beaten on the course?

I am pretty certain wings will be banned to keep cost down if it proves fast. Perheps even if it is dog slow <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Going for wings would probably mean a new era in homebuilding for the A-cat class. Would probably cut the class by 95% as well by my guess.



Timbo, make a wingmast with a large enough chord and you dont need an inflatable sail as the gains become quite small then. There have been several attempts of 'camber inducers' and 'RAF' systems like some sailboard rigs have, but they have not caught on. The L/D ratios we get out of our catamaran rigs are quite good, for the speeds we are sailing with. It sure makes handling and tuning a lot easier and cheaper.

Because such a sail has an inferiour "lift to drag" ratio; it will get beaten by a conventional soft rig of the same surface area. Additionally, depowering such an inflated sail is far more difficult. The inflated shape is the shape it will have under all conditions.

Wouter

Or right it after a capsize !

25 kg for the rig makes it at least 10 kg more heavy then a "conventional" A-cat rig

Wouter

With a wing, I think they could save some weight in the hulls and the beams as they would not have to deal with the loads usually needed to keep the leech in. Have they had time to develop the platform for the wing? Dont think so, but would be delighted to hear otherwise.

Who pays for the project? And who is going to sail with the wing?

“It is legal to sail with a rigid wing right now but it might be banned keep the class alive and healthy. The cost of such a wing is probably around 50 000 dollars....”

Good, bad or indifferent...A class or any other class…why does someone always come out with some outlandish cost estimate every time something different is suggested? Doesn’t matter if it’s a wing sail, new hull material, new construction technique…what ever…if its anything besides the status quo the nay sayers come out chanting “it’s going to cost a fortune and kill the class”.

Regards,
Bob

That's a thing of beauty.

Who's gonna be sailing it?

You're right Seeker. A wing will not kill the A class. look what it's done for the C class. They get four boats on the water just about every year. YEHAaaaa that's 8 class members worldwide.

“You're right Seeker. A wing will not kill the A class. look what it's done for the C class. They get four boats on the water just about every year. YEHAaaaa that's 8 class members worldwide.”

PpS you missed my point completely…I was addressing a reoccurring attitude that exaggerates the expense of anything different. I am not saying the wing sail is good or bad for the A-class, what I am suggesting is that it (and any other possible improvements) be evaluated on its own merit, and live or die on that bases, rather than crush everything right out of the box based upon an exaggerated cost estimate.

Regards,
Bob

Hakan,

I am asuming that this is Ben Hall's new boat, Peter cogan design with it rigid wing. Please correct me if I am wrong. Should be at Lake Hopatcong this weekend. I have also been asking the cost question as well. It would be difficult for me to believe that this will become the standard of the class or that Ben wants it to be with all the time he has invested in supporting and promoting the class. But then again if it wins the worlds, who knows.

If the solid wing is durable, you may never need to buy a sail again! Or a mast...

All you need is another wing, a tail and an engine and you could fly it home. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Did i read that correctly... $50,000!! wow, thats a bit out of the average guy's price range indeed

As I recall Crag's wing boat in the 18sq class did not destroy that class. I intend to go to Lake Hopatcong this
weekend as a tourist. I'll take lots of photos.

I just posted some photos from the 1982.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lesburn1/CCatsCirca1982

I should mention that they are C-Cat photos.

The cost for THAT wing is probably in that range, but if you are asking about prices for "volume production" then it will be lower.

The cost of an A-class mast is around 4000-4500 dollar and that is a rather simple structure compared to a rigid wing. A price guess would be between 10 - 20 000 dollars for a rigid wing in volume prodution.

Some concerns with a rigid wing is how to handle the boat on land (you need to take down the mast after each sail) and if it survives a pitchpole.

/hakan

We discussed this very thing a few days ago.
There is a new inlfating tech that will stand water up in walls it is so strong....and why not suck the air out the same way you inflate it?? Have a carbon shaped section at the top of the mast and the bottom and inflate the rest of the wing.
Or maybe five carbon sections like battons for extra truth to shape?

the inflateable sail is also known as a double surfaced sail. it's the standard in hanggliding. i had a friend that studied the Macharje(spelling?) book on aerodynamics and developed a double surface sail for windsurfing. he produced quite a few, but no bigshots ever adopted them and won a big race. i used them for a while, but never got dialed in enough to prove they were better than a regular camber induced sail. it would be hard to make one that could be hoisted like a regular sail, but there is potential in the idea.

The point is that it is not new that they are trying to use inflated rig on an A class. I think it was around 1988 that a Swiss guy was experimenting with it and he did go fast with it ( i will try to find the photo of that boat ) but the rigging and de-rigging was a problem and also the weight (at that moment the carbon was not yet common) . On what was written down the up wind performance was very good but very difficult ( critical in adjusting ), the down wind was even more difficult.
But it looks very nice, i cannot wait to see Ben sailing with it on the Worlds in Florida.

That's what I had in mind. Are there any pictures of it in use?

Remember, it wasn't long ago that people were saying a square top sail wasn't do-able, or a spinnaker would be "too much" power for a cat.

There may come a day when we all have a solid wing sail, carried in a covered trailer similar to a glider trailer, and you lay the boat on it's side, attach it with 3 or 4 shrouds to support it, tip the boat upright and off you go, might end up being faster to rig than today's A cats! After a day's racing, you take it down, slide it back in the trailer, go find the keg.

Dennis Connor proved the wing sail is faster than the conventional sail back in the 1988 America's Cup on his 60' cat. He had both, tested them, went with the wing. I wish we had more of his testing data available to see exactly how much faster it was, vs. cost, etc.

So, all we really need here is a little Research and Development on this concept and the foiling concept, which is being done by the C class today, as we sit here sailing our 1000 year old conventional soft sail rigs.

Once the details are worked out, we will all be sailing faster, easier, talking about the "Old Days", when people sailed in the water (not over it) with those heavy old masts and inefficient soft sails...

*cough, cough* <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Better fill that wing with lots of helium, or better, N2O gas <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How will you tow that large trailer behind your bike? I dont think there will be cars when we get to that point in the future <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We'll all be driving electric cars by then. And I do like the helium idea, fill the hulls with it too while you're at it! You might have to tie your wing to the trailer to keep it from floating away though!

Here's my prediction:

I bet that there will be 99 A cat sailors refusing to race against Ben and his new wing in November in Florida. The class will hold an emergency meeting and outlaw solid wing sails by the end of the first day. Deja vu on the foiler rule anyone?

Personally I applaud him for trying, and I would vote against any new rules to the Acat class rule set.

The coolest things happening in sailing are foiling Moths, CClass wings and Ben's project. Too bad he wont get to race it.

Bill

Emergency meeting? The class dont have procedures to follow when they want to change rules?




Amen!

But...if he's going to go through all the time and money to develop it, knowing the A class will most likely outlaw it, why not also put it on foils?? Or at least have a set of Moth foils standing by to try out, or has that been done already? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

He could start a new class, call it: Mini C. Only 10% evil... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Still, the cost alone will keep it from cathing on very fast, if at all.

Already have the rules in place to limit the effects of hydrofoils. Not the best of rules, but extremely discouraging if you want to go down that path.

In regard to the wing. The C-Class cats have 2 on board and the crew is fairly busy tuning the wing. Different dynamics in that you control twist and yaw. Doing that on a 1-man boat whilst steering and holding the main is going to be the biggest factor for Ben Hall to overcounter. In straight line he may be the quickest when he gets it going, but changing gears and getting round the course going to be another matter and will take a bit of training. Only 6 weeks really to go now. I think this will be his biggest challenge to get over, not some overzealous bunch changing the rules.

I took a look at Marstrom's A Cat whilst sailing the Nationals in Long Beach a few years ago. He had this really cool system that adjusted much of his rigging based on the tension of the mainsheet. For example while he was sailing in a breeze the harder he sheeted his main the tighter the downhaul, further back the rotator and maybe even the outhaul. When he was tacking and let off the main all would ease for power on the next tack then sheet in for speed. These where all adjustable for the different wind conditions with cleats on the hulls. Maybe Ben could figure that all out and just use the mainsheet while he is tacking for all those tweeks. I hope they let him sail with the wing if just for curiosity's sake.

Later,
Dan

I just got off the phone with someone close to Ben.

First off, $50,000 is a made up number.

Ben's wing contains $2000 worth of carbon and nomex. The skin is mylar shrink wrap (pennies per yard). Designed by Dave Hubbard, same designer as Cogito. Its a 2 element wing rig with twist control. It comes apart into 4 pieces and that simplifies transportation. About an hour on the Hall CNC, (substitute jigsaw for home builder) If you've got the skills (autocad), the desire (and $2k) and the time you can build a wing.

A brand new Glazer Acat sail is $1900 with Battens - Pentax RBS Carbon battan, plus shipping. That price is from a Hopatcong sailor that just got one. So its not out of the realm of being realistic for the class cost wise.

I misspoke in my earlier post about rule changes.

A rule change is a two stage process, first its proposed at the AGM, which happens at the worlds in Nov, and then its voted on by every member of the class, which wont happen in Nov. So bottom line is that if Ben wants to race his wing he can.

The question is how many of the other 99 sailors will race him.

Bill

Oh, yeah I forgot to add that a new Hall mast is about $2400 (thats a two year old price.) So really you are talking $1900 + $2400 = $4300. Figure $4500 to be safe, plus rigging and a boom and you might be closer to $5000 for a modern Acat rig.

I'm surprise noboby noticed the new plaform that wing is sitting on.

If anybody needs me, I'll be in the basement working on my new wing.

Bill

No pre-pregs in the wing? How about the structure inside the wing, the tubes have to cost a bit?

Even if the wing can be separated into four elements, it is quite an undertaking rigging this beast. We keep our boats at the club, and having to lug the wing into and out of storage every time seems harder than just bringing the sails.

But hey, if I can use a spi on it when going downwind, why not <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (No, I am not talking A-cat when I mention the spi)


When will your first open-source wing design be released Bill?

Rather than build it from scratch, might he (Ben Hall, Hall Spars) offer a kit, where he builds the ribs, spars, etc. and the buyer puts it all together? At a price somewhere between his actaul cost and a fully built wing, that still might be cheaper than the $5,000 mast and sail combo?

How about if he races it, but throws out his scores? Then the others won't fear it but welcome the chance to see just how well it performs up against the best traditional rigs, and see if it might improve cat sailing? In the end, he might get the rule changed and sell a whole lot of kits, and have the entire fleet ready to race with wings next year. OR, perhaps the class could offer two sub-classes, traditional rig or wing rig. Oh, and another sub-class with foils! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Most A-class sails buy boats, the don't build them! You can't compare the price of a things that you buy with a pile of carbon fibre that in theory could be assembled to a nice rigid wing sail.

In the beginning of the "evolution" the designs would change quick and your wing would get outdated fast and require each sailor to spend loads of money upgrading. How many A-class sailors do you think would show up at the worlds 2013?

If you can get a quotation from Hall spars for a wing mast, complete ready to sail, below 10 000 dollars them I'm really surprised. The wing mast should of course be painted, durable, low weight and survive a "mild" pitchpole.


/hakan

I think the recent little americas cup demonstrated that a foiler isn't always the answer. On the other side, conditions was not ideal for foiling and there is a relatively large weight difference between a C and an A cat.

What is this, guys ?

For years we have been fed the story that the A-cat class is a true development class, but now that actually two REAL developments come along, foils and the wing sail, we hear all kinds of screams to ban both before either can proof their worth !

Remember the A-cat mantra ?

Length, width and sailarea limited while anything else goes.

It all started when the minimum weight was fixed at 75 kg, from then onwards more and more rules and regulations were added. Banning full foiling, banning banana boards, even banning canted daggerboard beyond 6 degrees. T-foil rudders are hampered by the "new" rules as well. Now there seems to be support to ban a solid rig.

If the A-cat sailors had such an attitude in the 80's and early 90's then we would never have seen carbon masts on the A's. Surely those things costed a fortune back then as well !

The implicit value of the A's always was their willingness to try completely new stuff and make it work. Since 10 years they are losing their religion. I'm not sure that that is a good thing.

With respect to the Hall wing sail, I believe one can make such a thing work for 10.000 dollars. Most of the money is in the first experimental prototypes anyway and those investments have already been made in the C-class. Patient Lady and Cogito projects developped and proved a wing that is both dependable and practical. Standing on that experience it shouldn't be too much of an effort to make a commericially build version.

Wouter

Does anyone have any plans for a wing?

I guess this leaves the only "real" development classes as the C and the 18square. Maybe we should see a revitalization of the 18square class? Anyone got an old 18square they want to get rid of?

Agreed.

Do you think 100+ boats at the Worlds is a bad thing?

/hakan

I think "most" is a strong word. There are now 6 DK17's - largely homebuilt, and Ian Lindhal new design has created quite a stir, I think that he's got a least 2 sailing, with a couple more planned.

This weekend at Hopatcong will be at least 2 homebuilt(Lindhal, mine) and 2 professionally built/custom boats (Cogan designed). There might even be more, older style Acats in Hopatcong. With the cost of a new Acat at over $20k, I think you'll see more and more homebuilt. My homebuilt came in at $11k.

2 weekends ago at Royaton, only one production boat raced (an XJ), the other 3 were either homebuilt (mine and a stressed ply, Flyer design) and one custom/professionally built boat.

Sorry to disagree with you Harkan, I'm a huge fan of your work with the spin on your Acat.

I do think you could build a wing mast for your Acat for about the same cost as a new sail and mast or less. Assuming you've got the desire and the skills to do it.

I dont think Ben's going to offer kits, or sell complete wing masts, at least thats the feedback I've gotten. You'd have to cowboy up and figure it out yourself.

If anybody needs me, I'll be downloading the latest version of autocad.

Bill

Nope.

If you read my earlier post, I think that the wing mast will be banned and life will go on as we all know it. Hell, the wing might even be slower, you are all jumping to the conclusion that its automatically faster. The fact is that is heavier by probably 12kg, and if you capsize you are done for the day at least. The modern camber induced sails most of us are using are pretty efficient. I think its going to be interesting to see if its faster or not.

Dont get your panties too balled up, its not going to ruin the class.

I'm just glad somebody (C class or Ben Hall) has the time and money to do the R+D. Maybe someday we will have some trickle-down into the other classes. Still waiting for someone to join two Moths together for a small foiling cat!

tell me again why we decided not to allow solid wings in the F16 class?

I think all classes are becoming more and more conservative.. Hell the F16 class recently tried to ban movable rudder finlets and we have banned foils..

Stewart, nobody stops you from building a wing and putting it on your F-16. I bet most F-16 sailors would love to go up against your winged F-16, I know I would. The only "but" in the equation is that you would not be allowed to race (or be scored, if evaluation was wanted) in F-16 class events. Open events would be just that, open.
The F-16 class is a controlled development class. Intention is to control the arms race so cost is kept down. If the A-class goes ballistic with affordable and durable wings, we could always discuss the matter again. Nobody is against development, just control the costs of playing the game.
The movable rudder finlet ban discussion was fronted by a very small group.. There will always be such discussion, unless you sail in a strictly one design class.


Timbo, I agree full heartedly with you. Having individuals spending time and money on experiments like this is fantastic.

I want to sail in a developmental class too.

Just don't change anything.

Now that's funny! All you non-conformists, form a line over here... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I really do see a difference in between a foil and a wing. A foil renders the whole measurement system of a cat invalid as the submerged part of the boat is completely different. Whereas a wing is in theory just the most efficient sail. I don't see any reason for a development class to abandon such a direction, if it shows valuable. Even if it costs say 20.000$. That's what development classes are for. Wanna sail in a "cheap" class? Don't go for a development class. Maybe A-class isn't development any more??

Tim, it is really NOT that simple. The moth foiler has a control system implemented (a crude one) to help maintain its altitude, but it still needs skipper contral actions to adjust the platform foiling to different speeds and angles of sailing (the throttle on the tiller extension). This is challenging but with practice the skipper are able to control the craft.

Now if you slashed two moths together you would have 2 independently operating control systems with two throttles (one for each rudder T-foil). But best of all is that you have just increased your dynamics by a factor of two complicated by the fact that both control systems will interact with each other. This is much more challenging to design right and to handle right.

It is much better to just get the Hobie trifoiler or Rave and get flying.

Wouter

Because the F16's aren't a development class. Never claimed to be either.

Our goal was to maximize versatility and performance using conventional and/or proven technology.




Under my tenure as chairman the F16 class allowed all kinds of foils and I'm still of that conviction. Sadly the recent changes were inspired by the scare found among the A-cat class sailors. I think that the F16 class may decide to ban complex system (keep sailing the boats accessible) but this certainly doesn't include banning the use of simple systems like bruce foils. If T-foils can be made dynamically through a simple and inexpensive way then I'm all for including it in the F16 class.

Currently I'm no longer an F16 official and I'm just a voting member.




It also has alot to do with people simply not understanding the principles involved and the fact that more complex or newer systems are seldomly faster in a race. The C-class championship of yesterweekend proofs this point again. The foiler got soundly beaten. But the class members still want to vent their insecurity. It takes a careful balancing act by the chairman to keep a class on the right path. Not all chairmans are succesful at this.


Wouter

Actually there is a provision in the F16 class rules that allows such an experimental craft to be scored !

I included that intentionally together with the more strict nature of the class rules so that the class would have tools to fight a mass scare among the f16 sailors but still allow the class to continiously orientate on new improvements that could later be included in the F16 setup when proven to be effective, accessible and relatively inexpensive.

It all comes down to the Governing council of the moment in how and if they put these given tools in use.

But back to topic now, the new A-cat with a wing sail ! I must say that it does interest me enormously and I'm looking forward to spectating the A-cat worlds again since the wave piercer hull was introduced (10 years?).

Wouter

Post deleted by Timbo

Did this just turn into an F16 thread?

The company I work for supplies composites to the marine industry. When I saw the A rig I was impressed and e mailed through work.

This was 1 reply.

Regards Tony

Is that the 18sq wing that used to sit in Forbes' shed for a long time? (or still does)

It didn't come with any explanation, James.

Just the photo.

OK guys here are the facts to set the record straight.
As Bill V said the boat in the pic is a brand new Peter Cogan design. The molds were built at Vector Works who also built the hulls. I finished the hulls in Bristol and have been sailing this summer with the standard rig.
The wing I built was inspired by watching Steve Clark and Fred Eaton race last fall in Newport. Steve convinced me that it was really not that hard to build, so I decided to give it a shot. Dave Hubbard designed the wing and Steve and Henry Elliot were a big help along the way. I assembled most of the parts in my basement until I needed a bit more room to assemble all the elements.
The length of the wing is only 29 ft (not 40ft). The top two elements are a little over 9 ft and easily removable to facilitate transportation. The wing stores in a 21 ft trailer box X 6 ft wide X 2 ft high. The boat sits upside down on top of the box. I tow the trailer with a Dodge minivan (not a semi).
The weight of the wing is 52 lbs. The weight of all the stuff (mast, sail, battens, mainsheet system,boom and traveler) I took off my boat weighs 46 lbs. (that's 2.72 kg delta). Granted the CG is higher but no way 12kg heavier. As far as righting after a capsize, assuming rig is in one piece, will be more difficult but still possible as this rig is about 5 lbs (min) lighter than the old aluminum mast/dacron sail combo which we were able to right. The all up the boat should still be min but without corrector weight.
The cost of the materials in the wing were right around $2000 (1400 Euro at today's rate). A total of around 300 hours (about the same as one of the A Cats I built from scratch) went into building the wing. If I had to build it again the time would be about 100 hrs less.
The rig can go from trailer to ready to sail in 30 minutes. Derigging the other day from rig up to in the box was 12 minutes. It does require a helper (wing sherpa) to lift the lower element out of the box and onto saw horses and also to put it into the box after derigging. The boat is flipped on its side, the wing is plugged into the step, the rigging is attached, the top two elements are installed, the boat is righted, control are rigged and you are ready to sail. Much easier than the C Class program because everything is so light.
The design of the wing is a simplified version of the Cogito wing. It has two elements (#1 forward/#2 flap) while Cogito has three. The wing is slotted and both the #1 and #2 have twist control. The controls are simpler than the standard rig. Wing has 4 controls: 1/ mainsheet 2:1 2/ camber, this controls flap angle from 0 to 35 degrees 3/ #1 twist 4/ #2 twist.
This is compared to the standard rig: 1/traveler 2/mainsheet 8:1 3/outhaul 4/ downhaul 16:1 5/ rotation 6/over rotation 7/ diamond tension
Now for the fun part...how to sail this thing. I have now sailed 6 times in winds from 4 kts to 22 kts. So far nothing has broken and has proved to be quite easy to sail. All the controls can be adjusted from the wire. Up wind, both twist controls centered (no twist), the camber is set at about 15 degrees, so all you do is adjust the 2:1 mainsheet to optimize the angle of attack. in big breeze upwind it is very easy to depower by simply easing sheet a bit.
Down wind the flap angle is increased to 35 degrees and twist is induced in both elements by easing off the twist control. Jibing and tacking are made a ton easier because there is no boom to crawl under, not to mention a traveler and end boom sheeting to manuveur the tiller extension around.
The big question....is it fast???? So far in boat on boat testing the results have been mixed. There are some conditions that do not suit the wing. One is mild thing sailing. Unlike the C Cats, we cannot trap to leeward to fly the hull in any condition ( Hakan, I know your leeward sitting technique may help but the risk of capsize is not worth it and the rig did not cost $50,000)
In light to medium upwind conditions it seems good and wild thing also good. No test yet in big breeze up or down against anyone. And as someone mentioned the current A cat rig is very highly developed (our masts have gone through over 50 laminate revisions in the last 10 years and I am sure the sailmakers have many more designs) so the difference in the wing performance so far has been small. Time will tell and the ultimate test will be the Worlds and Bill, I am sure there will not be 99 boats on the beach in protest. Steve Clark said the wing will do two things...create alot attention and piss some people off. Well he was right. I did not make this to do either but it is what it is (as coach Bill B says). I enjoyed working with all the "wing nuts" in building this wing, understanding how and why it works, and finally learning how to sail it. The class will ultimately decide the fate of this project and I am not surprised at the myriad of reactions to the project. I have been a huge supporter of the class since 1996 and have owned 18 A cats in that time so it not my intention to ruin the class. The wing has been legal in the class since its inception in the 60's and a solid wing was first tried by Danny Goritski (the wizard of Lake Hopatcong) in 1985 and it was not banned then.
While everybody else was feverously working on new hull shapes, new blades, new sail designs, new battens (why because we can in this class and no one is doing this to go slower) I decided to go for the wing. It is really like building a big model airplane and as a kid I did alot of that (maybe it was the glue). I have always enjoyed fast boats, cars and motorcycles...A Cats are the ultimate speed machine on the water. I will post some nice sailing shots soon.

Ben Hall A Cat USA 99

Ben,

That thing is cool, bravo for being the first to really give it a try. Hope it works out for you.

Good on you Ben. Thanks for taking the time to give us all the straight and skinny from the source, that will help cut down on all the speculation.

I hope it catches on and some day we are all flying wings instead of trying to bend battens. Your wing seems the natural sail evolution just like from the Wright brothers first flyer wing to today's high performance ultralight glider wings. Keep up the great work.

Now, about foiling.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Ben for bringing this thread back to a bit of realism and logic, (two things that are regularly lacking in a lot of posts here). Your thinking and application are without fault and as an avid admirer of the A class and wing development (and as an aside, of foils as well) all I can do is congratulate you on your willingness to just "do it", rather than discuss the hell out of the subject as just an “idea” to later be forgotten, and I sincerely hope that all your work proves to be many times more successful than you could have ever dreamed it could be.
Darryl J Barrett

Hi Ben, Any chance that you will release the plans to the public after the regatta?
Dave

Ben,

Thank you for pulling this back to reality. I am glad that you went ahead with this project. It is also one of the clenest and yes "coolest" looking wings that I have ever seen. You should be commended, not condemned for putting this forward in the class as well as timing it before the worlds. Good luck this weekend, and at the worlds. That is also a great looking platform that it sits upon. I hope that it does not get lost in the to do about the wing. By the way, is it just the two boats built or are there more? See you in Bristol next season. Again, good luck, great job and cool boat and wing.

places order for 1 x F16 sized rig..

One question how does one attach the spinacker?

*scratching my head*

in reality development classes are no more expensive than SMOD classes or Formula or one design..

correct me if I'm wrong.. Isn't the Aussie "Tool" also a home-built?
this is what I really like about the A & F16 etc.. One can either go plonk the dosh down or beaver away yourself in the shed..

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> is that a straight line or a non conforming cluster? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The Tool is not really home build because 1 of the containers from Europe has 7 Tools in it. They are build production wise.
We bring 7 Tools, 1 Scheurer, and 2 Flyers with us to the Worlds.

Regards,
Hans

thanks I did not know that about the tool... Still think there are one or two aussie A cat sailors who build their own hulls..

I wonder though when does a home built not become a home built? May sound silly.. But a few years ago a group of Javelin skiffs sailors got together built a mold and pulled 5 or so hulls off the mold.. Maybe a dozen or so over the years. These guys built the hulls in a home garage and had day jobs.. Worked weekends to help the class.. I guess this idea could apply to cats as well

Bill,

So if I buy a platform and put my own mast and sail on it I qualify as a "homebuilt"

All the DK's came out of a professionaly built mold and the hulls were built with at least some aid with Steve and or Lars. Lindahl is a "professional" builder from the past and now back especially if they are producing 3-4 platforms in time for the Words. Bens and Cogans hulls were made in a shop from professionaly built molds, and final assembly and rigging done at one of the premeier rigging shops (Halls Spars)

Not that it makes any difference in the grand scheme of things, but the lines are muddy. I would consider a boat to be home built that was not produced out of professionaly made molds.

I see 30k for a new a-class boat next year

You might see that this year with the new Marstrom A-Class, but it may come in below that. I have yet to see the boat or its pricing. I have not seen what the new Hall/cogan platform is going for either. It seems that with the increasing price of carbon and epoxy at this moment, the prices around the industry reflect those increases. Going back to Ben's new wing, as I stated earlier in this thread, it was not built to start an arms race in the class, it was built as a development process. I cannot see Ben wanting to "kill off" the class that he has put so much time, effort, development and committment into.

"All the DK's came out of a professionally built mold and the hulls were built with at least some aid with Steve ..."

Correction: I built my DK-17 myself! Steve, Bill and Heater Beaver, Willy, and David. All assisted at some level with the lamination of the hulls. (If you're going to cycle the molds twice in less than two days you need a little help...) Yes the molds were built by Steve and cut with an NC Router. I brought my own materials. I paid to use the mold. I walked away with four pieces that hardly resembled a boat. I have a day job completely unrelated to my hobby/addiction. I built the rest from scratch in an 18’ by 19’ garage. I can’t speak for the rest of the DK-17’s buy mine was home built. A trivial issue to most, but not to me.

Back to the topic at hand. Excellent work Ben! I can’t wait to see how the wing performs against the current rigs and I could think of no better venue/event than the worlds. I fully support the development aspects of the class and wish more people would take on projects like this. Now if that pesky little hydrofoil rule would go away we could answer that question as well. Given the time, I’d surely like to play…

-GMS
USA-215

Ditto for me, I left Steve's shop with 4 parts and finished it myself. I consider it homebuilt, not bought. And we laid the hulls up at Steve's house not over at Vanguard.

And Lindals molds dont look production to me.

Bill

Thanks for the post Ben! Very cool project. I can't wait to see it in Ismoralda.

Jeremy
Surf City Catamarans

That DK17 sounds like an interesting project. Did you guys each have to figure out your own laminate schedule or are there existing plans?

Dirk Kramer specificed the laminate. I used one layer of 5oz carbon weave on the outside skin, 1/4 inch corecell foam core, 5oz on the inside skin. George and Steve's boats are Nomex core. Mine is glued together, Steve's is bolted, not sure about George's boat.

We added additional patches of carbon cloth at the shrouds, forestays, beam sockets and the outside skin that you stomp around on while trapezing. So far mine has held up great, I was out in 30knots plus 2 weeks ago and nothing broke.

Bill

Mine had the same laminate as described. Glued together at at a return flange along the center line. I also bagged two layers of tape over the seam all the way around (1.5 inch wide and 1.0 inch wide). I spec'ed high modulus beams from Composite Engineering (VanDusen Racing Boats). Beams are glued in. Beams are slightly more than 50% stiffer in bending and torsionl compared to a Flyer. This boat is extremely stiff and its will underweight.

Did I mention that I weight 250 pounds, not even a peep from the boat.

-GMS

wow! That's not much material! Cool.

I have looked closely at 2-3 of the DK's that were at Bristol around the NA's last year. They were extremely well built as well as showing the level of thought and development that goes into the A-Class. i am one of the newbies in the class and I have truly been amazed as well as suprised by the different thoughts that are out there concern this class. The DK-17 being a boat designed for sailors above the 90kg range and allow them to be competitive. I think right now the new Hall/Cogan design with its rigid wing and the new Lindahl/Roake LR2 are at the forefront of the development side of this equation. Cannot wait to see how both develop. Hats off to both project and the minds & efforts behind both showing that they had the beliefs and "balls" to put their money where their mouths are.

Timbo,

You apparently learned pressure tactics from either your Union or agitationprop from the S*****s. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Since the prop has apparently fallen off your airplane allowing you unlimited e-mail reading/writing time, why don't you come up to Gainesville and sail my hydrofoil A-cat? That is it in my avatar <-- or www.fastsail.com/catcobbler

Dave, I would love to! I'm in Atlanta this moment, on my way to Dubai, but I get back on Monday (Oct. 1) and then have some days off, I might be able to get up there. I'll pm you when I get home. Thanks for the offer!

Dave,

Is your XJ actually foiling?

Some local Brisbane guys have built 70 or so cherubs out of their own mould over the last couple of years. They're considered home builders as they have day jobs. They're doing a couple of 12 foot skiffs now.

Gotta go with Wout on this....if not the A, where is cat developement?

Who are driving the new hull shapes????!!!


Other classes just end up with an A and B class which would be pre wing and foil and poste wing and foil.

How does it do that if the foils don't go outside the boat width?
Banning foils is just plain silly. Hobby horsing is a pain as is pitching and losing the possiblity of stablising the boats with such a simple and honest device is nuts.

I like the hull shape that Lindahl and Roake are playing with on the LR2. It is development. Ben's wing and new platform are development. As to the foils, the A is measured to the farthest out point. If the foils were to exceed b-max the beams would have to be shortened so that b-max remained 7'6.5".

Agreed!!!!

My question about hull shape was rhetorical..like you I love the way those guys are putting their thoughts on the mat.

It is clear that A class is driving the research in hull shape....
so why not wing style...the sail is after all just a wing......

If the solid wing turns out to be fast, but an expensive ball ache to put into common use then only three will be made and they will die out.
Evolution is like that.....and the A division has always said that evo is their advantage over the rest.

Why worry?...It is not likely the first guy to race a solid wing seriously will win the event.

Second is just first loser.

If in the VERY unlikely event he wins it will be spectacular, exciting, create lots of news and excitement.......All good for the class in the end.

Who gave a s*** about Moths before they went foiling....now we all know about them and keep an eye there...it's attracting lots of newbies and sponsorship to that class I bet.

The avatar pic and the website show my 34 year-old 200 pound wooden A-cat foiling at speed in Jacksonville, FL. The rig works pretty well, albeit with (obsolete) surface-piercing aluminum foils and without any moveable control surfaces: I have pix and testimonials and have been on the same water together with Raves. They have all gone away and I've survived.

Ben,

good luck this weekend at Lake Hopatcong. Hope that you post thoughts and photos after the regatta.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze28w8n/ Lake Hopatconk Pics

Interesting pictures of the Lindal boat. The centerboard and rudders look "agressive".

How do they manage to get the boat stiff enough with the very small attachment point between the beams and the hulls, loads of carbon?

With a wider attachment point you get lower loads and can use less material.

/hakan

what happened to the pictures? The links not working.

I got a couple of pictures of the wing in its storeage box before my digital camera ran out of batteries.

Bill,

It seems that the link that they were posted on was temporary. I am waiting for fred and Ian to send the pictures, videos and report about the regatta so that I can post and distribute them. Maybe you can get Ben to post his as well.

Shelly said she was going to post her pics on shutterfly.

One more of the wing in a box.

last one

So who won?

Here is a link to the Lake Hopatcong racing this week end.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze28w8n/
There are some videos as well as some shots of Ben Hall's
wing sail and the LR2.

Nice and everything but what a ball-ache to deal with...oops. I slipped and now it's got a hole in it....gee it's a lot harder to deal with in the wind....bugger, nowhere soft to lie the boat over and the wing out......

So pleased I don't need to go there.

Lars won.

I don't know what your plans are, but if you are going to re-build I know a shop that has 3 and 4 mm Okoume Plywood.
Let me know, and I will send you the link.

Saw Ben sailing his boat today. I think he might have sailed in an around the island race with some Nacra 20s, F18s and etc. Or at least it appeared that way, I will confirm later.
I was sailing at my college in a regatta and saw the wing, my crew kept yelling at me to focus on the race but I was distracted because the wing looks sooo cool.
He was moving but it'd didn't appear to be any faster than a regular A-Cat.
-Todd

Looks like Ben is not doing to bad for the debut of the wing. I assume he is still sailing with it at the Worlds? He's currently in 16th (out of 100) after 5 races.

http://www.acatworlds.com/res/2007_Islander_Resort_Blue_Water_Classic_Regatta.html

Yes, in the practice race <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
True test begins over the weekend. So far it sounds like the wing is fast upwind and very fast downwind, as expected?