J. Lovell vs R. Daniel: the fight for Quindao

John Lovell and Charlie Ogletree are even with Robbie Daniel and Hunter Stunzi after 6 races at the 2008 US Olympic Team Trials in San Diego.
See:
http://www.sdyc.org/results/tornado/index.htm

It is going to be a great fight in the next races to get the ticket for Quindao!

My money is on Johnny & Charlie...they have a lot of successful match racing experience and have rarely lost to Robbie/Hunter at major event over the past years.

That said, it would be just fantastic to see Robbie get his shot at the games...well deserved.

Well... they have been match racing for 6 heats so far and its dead even.

IMO, this regatta will be decided by mistakes (took a shot on the shift and missed it...) or equipment failures.

Any other countries use the winner take all format of a trials for the Olympic slot?

From Scuttlebutt this morning:

OR, an odd number of races. Right now they're tied because they keep switching places. If the event ends up with an odd number then one of them will be ahead.
Exciting non the less...

Well that would have to depend on the weather then...

16 races are planned...

probably race 2 more today and then have an off day..... let the pressure build a little!

I think the US are pretty unique in the way you select your candidates. I really like your way of doing it, even if it probably makes it a bit harder for the athletes.

Robbie and Hunter trade wins with Johnny and Charlie again today. Now tied at 10 with 8 races down.
Epic
http://www.sdyc.org/results/tornado/index.htm

Still tied half way through.... WOW.

Plus's for a winner take all... single selection event.

1)... Performance under the gun.... Just like the Olympics.
The key is performance under pressure... The winner will have more experience in this game then competitors from around the world.


2) Cost... A US competitor who doesn't have the cash to compete in Europe STILL has a shot at outsailing the well funded team in the domestic US Trial regatta.

Disadvantage...
The number two or three team ... COULD catch lightening in the bottle for the two weeks of the trials... never again to come close to this performance. So... unlike figure skating where the number three girl can win a gold, Sailing gets one slot... your Countries best chance is to send the guy who is consistently top ranked.



The Olympic sailing pool in the USA is small in all classes... The top two teams are actually match racing around a course with moving obstructions. Hardly like an olympic regatta with 18 boats.

Will US Sailing screw with the results... will they be tempted to take the experienced number two finishers and say.... WELL.... We REALLY THINK we have the best chance with number 2... not number 1... So... chance for all out legal war...

What else?

Wed is the scheduled lay day... I suspect everyone is going through the boats with a fine tooth comb looking for things that need attention... an equipement failure now would be devestating. Johnny and Charlie have done this before... this is Hunter's first real taste of this kind of pressure... WOW!

Is this a good thing, not a good thing or neither? One of the ISAF criteria for selection of Olympic equipment is that it "must give the best sailors in each country the opportunity to participate". Are six crews (or two crews if you like) really so far ahead of the rest of the country that there is no reason for a whole bunch of other sailors to be competing for this berth? Is there anyone else in the country who could give Lovell/Ogletree or Daniel/Stunzi a run for their money?

There are a few who come to mind, but have been off tornados since 2004. I do think that you have to be actively racing in the class to have a chance of pulling it off. As far as who is better right now Lovell/Ogletree or Daniel/Stunzi, it seems that it is pretty even. Gone are the days of large fleets at the trials. Here are the fleet sizes. What surprised me is that Finn class has the largest numbers. The 470, I am not sure about, because it is posted as mixed fleet results.

Finn-42
Laser-33
Laser Radial-22
Star-19
49er-13
470-13
RS:X Men-7
RS:X Women-6
Tornado-6

While I would like to see John & Charlie get one more chance, I am not against fresh blood in the event.

There are also Paralympic classes:

2.4 meter (1 person) - 4
Skud 18 (2 person) - 5
Sonar (3 person) - 6

Mike

Charlie's comments from xs racing.

From US Sailing's site

Lovell and Ogletree with a 4th.

Holy [censored].... This could be a huge upset in the making!

Robbie with two more bullets and Johnny and Charlie with a 3 and 4.!!!

1 804 Robbie Daniel 12 1 (2) 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 1
Hunter Stunzi
2 808 John Lovell 15 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 (4) 3
Charlie Ogletree
3 11 Colin Merrick 32 4 3 (5) 3 4 4 3 4 3 4
John Sampson
4 868 Olli Jason 34 3 4 3 5 (6) 5 4 3 2 5
Patrick Gilles
5 836 Norman Chu 40 5 (6) 4 6 3 3 6 5 6 2
Gary Chu
6 840 Sarah Newberry 48 (6) 5 6 4 5 6 5 6 5 6

Awesome!!!

Robbie may become the last US tornado (& multihuller) in the games <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What happened with Lovell and Ogletree in the last two races? Breakage or outsailed?

There was a foul at the leeward gate in one race resulting in Charlie and Johnny doing a turn, lost a lot of distance in what sounds like were barely sailable conditions (4-5 knots, 5 knot minimum in the class rules). Not sure what happened in the next but very light conditions like that are a fleet equalizer and are Robbie's strength. Don't count Lovell and Ogeltree out. Sometimes a day like this only makes them more determined and there are 6 races to go. Robbie's on the defensive, they are on the offensive. Wish I was on a spectator boat!

Back to the old one two.
Four races to go.
http://www.sdyc.org/results/tornado/index.htm

So... no more throwouts are coming in the 16 race regatta.

It looks like Johnny and Charlie need to run the table and score bullets the rest of the way if the two teams stay true to form and continue to fight it out for the top two spots for the next 3 or 4 races.

Or attempt to draw a foul on Robbie...ever watch AC matches?

That's a lot harder to do with other boats around to use for blockers. The AC guys only have to worry about one other boat in the area. Great racing in any case. May the best team win. I hate light air...but it does bring out the best. Any mistake is huge in light air, and trying to make up distance is nearly impossible unless you get that one lucky shift.

Lovell and Ogletree roll a snake eyes (1,1) but still in second with two races to go.
http://www.sdyc.org/results/tornado/index.htm

Looks like Johnny & Charlie pulled it out by winning the last four races . . .

Final Results

And the Chu's squeeze into third! Yeah!

Holy cow, I bet Robby and Hunter were pretty crushed at the result.

Way to go Charlie & John!!!

Ugh! That must have been nerve-wracking for both teams. Almost a pity to have two teams so close in performance. Any hope of them working together towards the games?

There's more here than meets the eye.....

Commentary from the scene.

Drama, drama, drama. What happened?

From SDYC :

"In winds of 5 1/2 to 8 knots, they won Sunday's races by 59 and 71 seconds, after their protest Saturday against Daniel/Stunzi and Norman and Gary Chu for team racing against them was disallowed the night before. The competition got feisty at times."

Aaaa...that would be a "No".

Gee, Jill was pi**ed off. Sounds like the game was extended to the protest room for strategic reasons. Guess we will never know..

Well... a protest where you call someone a cheater will piss you off! Escpecially if they call YOU a cheater.


quite a bit different then a protest over a judgement error on the race course or a rules interpretation while racing or in measurement.

Those protest papers.. ought to be made public!

It's one thing to loose.... It's quite another to have your integrity questioned.

Wouldn't you have to specify which rule you believed was being broken?
Was there a specific allegation made?

"Cheating" is a broad allegation. It also cast questions about the integrity of the team making the protest to state that they made a false claim.
The only way to clear the air is to make the FACTS known.

Mark,

sorry if I insulted you, Jill, Robbie or others. Was not the intention.
I was just leaning back in the couch and thinking about the state of the "game" the olympians are playing and how different it is from the level I sail. In that perspective, not much should be a surprise when the olympic berth are at risk. Last time Jill was that worked up was when we disscussed charter boats, remember?

When two or more teams train together for years, they need to be careful not to give even the appearance of cooperation out on the race course. This could mean doing more than avoiding obvious blatant fouls against an opponent, but also more subtle things like not pushing one's right of way against a training partner while doing so against a competitor. Certainly, it's a tough line to walk.

In the end, it made little difference...protest was disallowed, Lovell & Ogletree still had to win the last 4 races and they did.

Well, all we know is that a protest was filed claiming that Robbie and some team... not mentioned publicly, were in cahoots and team racing with the effect of trying to drive Johnny and Charlie down in the standings.

The protest was tossed out.

So, the protest is probably unsportsmanlike conduct... aka cheating.

This just stinks!

I agree with you.. ... its a small community... better for US Sailing to publish the papers and facts found then have us speculate about it.

If it's a pile of [censored]... so be it.

From Olli's Blog for Saturday:

"Here are some big news of the day (if that’s what you want to call it); there is a protest underway by 808 against 836 and 804 for team sailing during the first race. I believe the accusation is that when 836 was in second place last time at the windward mark they slowed down which allowed 804 to catch up or something like that. I don’t really want to get into details as Pat was called as a witness and I don’t know if the hearing has concluded.
But personally I really don’t think anything like that would be going on from those teams. I know both teams personally and know that they would never even consider anything like that. There are lot of big kelp beds on the race course that we struggle to get through at times that really slow us down. This can make racing here very frustrating, in the light stuff especially. "

Blog

I really would hate to see this get out of hand and hope that someone is able to clear up what happened before everyone speculates more about it.

I would not want to finish the regatta of my career and wind up being accused of cheating. Nor would I want to be stuck with the view that other competitors were doing something wrong. What a mess to have ending a long and intense series of races.

Be careful here folks with spin. First, employing match racing tactics against another competitor is perfectly legal and I'm sure that Robbie Daniel was expecting it from Johnny and Charlie. Johnny Lovell is an excellent match racer (he won the US Sailing Prince of Wales Championship one year) and I was not surprised at all to see them "go after" Robbie and Hunter since they knew they were the only competition.

Regarding the protest about the team racing, perfectly legal to file a protest if you feel it happened because team racing is not permitted. The facts found by the protest committee did not support it. Suggest this forum leave it at that. If you weren't there, you don't know.

Thank you, that was the only point I was trying to get too. Do not spin it out of control.

Agreed.

Whatever the facts and rights and wrongs of this situation, it's absolutely incredible to me that Scuttlebutt chose in their report tonight to present the result only through the eyes of Charlie Ogletree, including a link to L&O's campaign website. And surprise, surprise, there is no mention of any protest. If ever there was a time for independence in reporting, surely this is it. Can't help thinking it looks as if Scuttlebutt have been sucked into a PR campaign.

Oh and one minor point of amusement - L&O's website notes that the "World Championships in Tauranga, New Zealand are only a few months away". Methinks they're going to be late for the start - since it's about 100 miles away in Takapuna!

I read the article and didn't come away with any negative feelings.

They won, and it appears the article took the high road and avoided mentioning the conflict. Those two skippers sailed the match of their careers. And it would be a shame to only highlight the off the waterr confrontation. Better to focus on the big picture.

The way it looks; one team saw something that in the heat of the event looked like B.S. and called them on it. Apparently, it was not so, and the second team was exonerated.
That was one heck of a match up. And when it came to crunch time the veteran team team pulled it out.
Let's move on.

Agree with much of what you say...


Absolutely.


Totally.

But -


I don't get.

I don't mean in any way to diminish the significance and worthiness of the victory. L&O are clearly insanely talented competitors. I have no judgment at all to make at all about the rights or wrongs of the protest. But the report is a different matter - I just think it's reasonable to expect those who use the appearance of being a reliable news source to make money to tell us the whole story.

When - as you said - they have "avoided mentioning the conflict", when we know there was a conflict, and have chosen to tell a story we know has two sides through the eyes of only a single protagonist, I think it's reasonable to ask - why on earth did they do that? Why did they chose not to tell us part of the story? Why is this the "high road"? Why haven't they shown us the "big picture".

I completely agree with you that "it would be a shame to only highlight the off the water confrontation". I don't want them to do that. I don't expect them to do that. If they had used Jill Nickerson's report instead of Charlie's then I agree that would likely be the result. That would also be a very bad idea. But it is a very false dichotomy to suggest that the only alternatives are to completely ignore the conflict or to only talk about the conflict. I just want them to report what they know about what actually happened.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox. Not looking for an argument really. It's late. Maybe it'll look different in the morning.

I don't know that Scuttlebutt was reporting or just repeating Charlie's report from T-squared.

Mark, if I read this right, are you calling Johnny Lovell and Charlie Ogeltree cheaters?

If the situation would have been reversed, would you be calling Hunter and Robbie cheaters?

If I file a protest against you on the race course because I think I saw you violate a rule but the protest committee findings dicate otherwise and disallow it, am I now a cheater for filing the protest against you?

With all due respect to you, I want to believe your comments were premature or not as I am reading them.

Bob Hodges

nobody cheated - the system was used, the system acted, and the decision was made that there was no foul play. If I lost on the water because I lost focus as a result of a favorable result from a protest hearing, it was my fault I lost.

I can see how emotions run extremely high in such a close tight battle with such high stakes and I would also probably be inclined to be upset after such a heartbreaking loss - but I must say that, while any controversy is...well...controversial, the system handled it well.

No. I am not saying Johnny cheated.

The protest by Johnny against Robbie and Gary is that THEY are cheating. (Not Johnny cheating)

This team racing protest is not just violation of a sailing rule (hitting a mark and not doing a circle ... but pre meditated cheating on the part of your competitor. (Team racing).

The protest was filed inspite of the fact that Johhny was winning the race when he alleged that the cheating occured behind him.

The majority of the huge protest was tossed and reduced to did Gary hit a kelp field and stop or did he cheat and let Robbie pass. Since, Johnny was well ahead... Hard to see how he could know the deal. But he claimed that Robbie and Gary were cheating by team racing.

So... You can allege cheating by your competitors on the slimest excuse and it was judged BS and denied.

The protest IMO was a pre meditated move on Johnny's part and just BS Gamesmanship to [censored] with the head's of Robbie and Gary.

Is Johnny cheating... No. Did it work?... who knows, Johnny won.

The question though ... is this fair sailing... or world cup soccer were Zidane gets tossed for head butting his competitor when he looses it over the BS dialog with his competitor.
So... I guess the world is OK with ... Hey... whatever it takes to win... an attack is an attack... on the water or off.

BUT
But... where do Robbie and Gary go to have their reputations mended. You can't put this allegations back into the bottle by just saying protest denied... Move on.... nothing to see here.... lets not talk about it..... go get that white wash and put on a good PR Spin... "Great job guys"..

You clearly imply that J&C made up the allegation and the protest was a calculated move designed to break the focus of the rival team...and in your words is "not fair sailing". This allegation you are making is just as bad, if not worse, than the whole situation. You have no grounds to make such an implication that the whole thing was fabricated on J&C's part.

PS - I doubt the result of the hearing was "protest is BS" but was probably more along the lines of "not enough evidence to support". I, for one, am glad that the result of the hearing was that there was no foul play and I feel that it does exonerate Robbie and Hunter. However, I am kinda a "glass half full" guy.

Well said Jake. That's how I feel about this as well. I'd say I'm a glass is half full and my friend is at the bar getting the next one kind of guy.

Chris.

All part of the sport (and other sports) at this level. Any team that cannot mentally handle such tactics is most likely not ready for the games.

That is pretty much how I see it. In addition, it is a strong allegation none-the-less that John filed this as a "head game". As far as I can tell, a protest was filed and denied, does that indicate cheating? I think not and the jury found that there was no substantial evidence to uphold the protest. This one thread has gone far enough on placing blame or accusations on either party.

You're right. But I don't have to approve or participate. Another way of stating your point would be, "If you're not prepared to be an SOB, you can't be a champion."

More than once I have heard "cut-throat" competition cited as the main cause for the demise in our sport.

Just my opinion.

Both of you demonstrate the problem with the fall out from this paricular protest in this context.

if there is just "Not enough evidence" that you are a cheater...

Where does that leave you.... exonorated... or just not guilty as charged?

IMO, You have been Smeared!

It's like the Fox News approach to reality.... On the one hand.... and on the other hand He ran over his grandmother.... You decide!

I will let the issue drop.
(I will just step over the steaming pile of [censored] that we would much rather go away.... then honorably clean up... sadly I will behave like the rest of the community.)

In many ways, isn't any protest based on a contention that someone cheated or sailed unfairly? Someone hit a mark, failed to yield right of way, tacked too close, etc. By your logic, there should not be any protests because they could harm the accusee's reputation even if the outcome is in their favor.

I don't think you are considering that Johnnie and Charlie might have actually thought that there was some wrong doing...if they genuinely thought that, were they wrong for filing a protest? I'm sure they were desperate to put some boats between them and they would have been sensitive to what they claim to have witnessed.

I'm not proposing what motivation moved anyone to act as they did or even beginning to pretend that I have any idea what actually happened - only stating that nobody here could possibly know what that was so to jump to a conclusion that J&C behaved "unfairly" is no different that jumping to a conclusion that Chu intended to let Robbie pass. We can't possibly know the motivations of these people at that moment - only that the system determined that there was no foul and I'm good with that.

I'm not even going to start on the Fox News methodology! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you feel that strongly, why not protest to the Olympic Committee?

If there is "no" substantial evidence, then the protest is spurious and perhaps a violation of the fair sailing rule.

Keep in mind, we are talking about the Olympics. "Cheating" is so rampant the IOC has to have a very aggressive anti-doping rule.

And it is definitely true. The main cause for the demise in our sport is cut-throat competition.

We all have enough of that in professional life. Sailing should be for fun, not for fights.

Just my opinion.

This is not for fun.

This is for the Olympics. The Olympics is "cut throat competition". These competitors are not sailing for fun.

These are both professional sailors. Johny Lovell is a sailmaker and Robbie Daniel has an ad on the homepage of this site. They are in this race to further their sailing careers. It is to their great advantage to win this regatta and compete in the Olympic Games.

A protest was made,the plantiff and defendants presented their cases to the jury and the decision of no foul was rendered. Case closed.

I would hope that since these are the 2 best American Tornado sailors that they will put aside this incident and be able to share their experiences so that the sum of their knowledge will increase the probabilities of winning an Olympic Gold Medal.

I don't like "cut-throat" competition. That is why I rarely watch pro sports or the Olympics.

Yea, my dislike of cut-throat competition is what keeps me out of the Olympics too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Exactly - this is the bottomline. Sailing for reasons other than fun make people fight for real, protest for real, cheat for real and do many other things that most of us would rather live without.

Out of curiosity: in 38 years sailing, the boats I sailed were protested ONCE.

That protest is a digression, but worth your time, I guess.

It was the first time ever we won in elapsed time and corrected time. But the last boat crossing the line protested all others, claiming that we rounded the wrong buoy. What used to be the "north" buoy now was the "south" buoy and there was a new "north" buoy further north.

Upon checking the "advice to sailors" (navy's official publication to mariners), all skippers agreed that he was right: only his boat sailed the 2 mile longer course to the new buoy. The others just followed us... But there was no "judgement": After the facts were known, the "teacher" withdrew his protest.

- Why? - I asked him.

He told me that his only goal was to teach everybody the buoy's new location and that all sailors MUST read both the sailing instructions AND "advices to sailors". This was more important than "winning" trophys and medals through a protest.

Quite different from the Olympics, isn't it?

Much different. That's the kind of sailing I'm interested in.

I think the Olympics needs to work on their "dog eat dog" mentality.

Johnny Lovell is a CPA that runs a business. He also has a two year old son so like many of you, when he goes sailing he is taking time off from his job (not making money) and his family (You could argue that Robbie Daniels is more of a "professional" than Johnny). I think this makes his accomplishments quite impressive since many of his competitors are spending a lot more time training while he is working. Charlie Ogeltree is a professional in the industry being employed by Ullman Sails.

I think if you have not sailed an international or Olympic class WC or Olympic trials, it is hard to appreciate how the level of competition is ramped up another notch (or a couple of notches). It is not for everyone but some can enjoy the challenge and the preparation that is required to do well. It IS fun to them. It is not an accurate or fair statement to label that level of competition "cut-throat". Often I see people critical of this because they are not willing to make the commitment to that level.

While I am sure Robbie and Hunter are extremely disappointed that they did not win the trials, perhaps they can take some satisfaction in knowing that if Johnny and Charlie medal again, it will in some part be due to the challenge they had to overcome at the Trials.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230

The Olympics are about sports and sports achievement.

Olympians don't cure diseases, prevent world hunger, or prevent wars. Some, however, cheat. That is not laudable.

When anyone, whether in business, politics or sports, adopts a win at all cost mentality, they should be prepared to accept criticism.

[Often I see people critical of this because they are not willing to make the commitment to that level.] The statement is a non sequiter.

I would ask you how many WC, Olympic Trials, or Olympic regattas have you sailed? If you have, have you experienced any level of cheating from your own personal experience?

I've sailed WC's in dinghy, multihull, and sailboard classes. I've sailed the Olympic Trials in the Div II sailboard and the Tornado. In every regatta I found the competition intense and exhilirating. I never found other competitors to be "cut-throat". Those that broke rules on the race course were dealt with by other competitors and the established racing rules. The winners in each competition won fairly and with honor.

A team at the Tornado Olympic trials observed an action by another team that they felt violated the racing rules. They followed the established procedure in addressing this perceived violation. It was disallowed by a jury following established procedure that established the facts and exonerated the other team. I would hope that participants in this forum will cease and desist from judgement or putting labels on either of the teams involved especially if you were not there.

You need to figure out why you're angry before you give yourself a stroke.

Try this: 1. Pull this post up in threaded mode 2. examine each of my posts.

In the ancient Olympics, I believe the boxers wrapped their hands in leather thongs studded with metal. I'm just guessing here, but someone probably got hurt. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That would fit my definition of "dog eat dog, cut throat, win at all cost" competition. I also understand the games were conducted in the nude and with religous fervor. But, I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.

The point is, for any organization or activity to continue its existence it must adapt to change. The Olympic image has been sullied by cheaters. The IOC is very aware of the problem.

I have to agree with Bob.

At the many, many Hobie NAs, Alter Cup events, etc. that I've raced and officiated, the one common thing that I take home is that there's very little screaming, people do circles (or sail well enough to avoid the issue), and generally are nice to one another on the water. Yes, I've seen exceptions (that were taken care of in the room); but overall, sailors at this level are not intentionally cheating.

At the Olympic event that I worked last week, I saw plenty of examples of great sailors sailing well, doing turns as needed, etc. There were a number of protests, but that's why they bring in the big guns to run the jury.

Mike

Not angry at all Pete, just a little frustrated with the term cheater being tossed around this thread (IMO) a little too freely and the upper ecehelon of our sport being called cut throat. Comparisons with other sports are not apples to apples because an Olympic track star is usually a highly paid professional and there are higher stakes that lead to "cheating". I do not believe you can apply that scenario to sailing. I feel priviledged when I get to play with the stars of our sport and so far have found all of them to be exceptional individuals who play the game within the rules, are approachable, and give a lot back.

Bob,

You are correct on this issue. It is not cheating to file a protest. I do not know why this is being percieved in this manner. though I do not like being in a protest room, I do understand the need for it to exist.

The cries of "cheaters" apparently came from some participants or attendees at the regatta. Go to the blog and reread one person's report on the "cheater" comments.

Olympic trial blog

Yes and that IMO is the problem. Some on this forum who were not there are basing their public opinion on only one person's version and/or perspective of a specific incident.

Ok Bob. I can't take anymore fuzzy thinking.

Take any event in the world. If you protest someone for TEAM RACING.... which impacts on your finish position. Do you agree with me that you are saying that X AND Y are cheating?

Not a mistake!
Not an error in judgemnt...
The act of team racing is a pre meditated act of two people who are cheating and undermining the integrity of the sport!

Do you think that the standard of proof that you should have when you fly that protest flag should be of the highest order, bullet proof evidence in fact? OR are you satisfied... with hey... I think X and Y are cheating... let's see what they have to say about the incident.

Unfortuneatly. The following posted comments speak to how this allegation is interpreted in the world.

Remember... the PROTEST WAS DENIED... BUT this is what you get.

From sailing anarchy



So, even when the protest committe says you are found NOT GUILTY OF CHEATING.... It STICKS .... you are now slimed!

Mark

OH... and notice the second idiot joined SA today... just so he could opine on the integrity of those who were not found guilty of cheating.

As I see it from a total outsider looking in... and can only judge by what I have read.

IF there was team racing involved, which is against the rules, guilt should be or innocence be apportioned by the Protest Committee.... that is their job. In this case the PC declined the protest, thus Daniels is innocen, whether it be through the fact that he is or that there was some fault with Lovells protest HE IS INNOCENT. Lets be honest, and I am not saying this is the case here, but training partners have 'helped' each other out for years, either by sitting on someone, holding a loose cover, the odd capsize and letting our mates through!.... yes we can all say we have seen it, hell we used to do it all the time when Team racing and it does get very hard not to help your team mates out when you are supposed to be sailing individually. I remember one student championships where one of our team was 3 points behind the leader, the leader found three of our team near him at the start and our man found a couple of the leaders mates near him.

Was Lovell right to protest? If he felt that rules had been infringed IMHO YES.

As the protest was declined should taht be the end of the matter? AS the protest committee have had their say.... YES

Mark,

Mistakes in judgement and boathandling create scenarios where one competitior has the option to protest another competitor on the race course. Just like a lawyer can "object" to another lawyer's actions or tactics in a court of law and asks the judge for a verdict, so do we have the option to use the protest process in sailing when we believe the rules have been violated. You don't hear lawyers calling the other lawyer a cheat when they object in court. They state their case and look to the judge for resolution. In football, there is "illegal" contact all the time on the playing field and that is what referees are there for. At the end of the game, are the players penalized for illegal contact called cheaters by the other team? Typically not.

With pure speculation on my part, the Chu's may have made a conscious decision to lose a place to help their friend and training partner without his knowing it. If that was the case it was wrong and Johnny Lovell was within his rights to protest or "object" to what he witnessed. On the other hand, they may have completely misjudged the position of the finish line, jibed, realized their mistake, did another jibe that resulted in a fouled spinnaker, and the end result is they lost a place which just happened to be Robbie. This may have been the facts found in the protest hearing. None of us were there or in the heads of the competitors and to put labels on any of it is wrong and that includes the tone of the comments on the Red Gear Racing website.

If you try to cross my bow on port and I have to alter course to avoid a collision, I can:

1. Let it go in the spirit of sportmanship (especially if it does not really affect my position in the race).
2. Tell you to do your penalty turns.
3. Protest your action if you choose not to do the penalty turns.

In this case, you might feel you crossed me with plenty of room. If I pursue the protest, we have to let a third party (the protest committee) decide based upon the facts found. Whatever the outcome, it would be wrong for me to call you a cheater for trying to cross my bow and for you to call me a cheater for protesting you. The same standard and civility should apply to this incident.

Bob Hodges

Bob

You put it nso much better than I did

Now this is a purely theoretical post, completely unrelated with whatever happened or did not happen in the US Olympic trials. I wasn't there and do not (can not) have an opinion about it.

Bob's argumet stands true in an ideal, 100% legal, world. But lawyers (and athletes) use several direct legal resources for indirect or secondary purposes.

One example is objecting in court to interrupt the oponent's speech when he is being particularly brilliant, to disrupt his (or the jury's) line of thought, to delay the trials and buy time or to manipulate the judges/jury, and other secondary purposes. The action itself is legal, but the goal is not the one that makes it legal.

In serious chess games the oponents regularly use "psychological war" in the form of protests, requests, delays, etc. to mess with the oponent's concentration.

Obviously sailing is not a mind-only game like chess, but even in sailing, protests might be used for indirect purposes.

Again, I am not saying that this was or wasn't the case, nor that it is fair (or unfair), I just say that it can be done.

Luiz's point is well taken but my observation is at the highest levels of competitive multihull, dinghy, and boardsailing the level of sportmanship is exceptionally high. I find racing A-Class catamarans refreshing as there is (currently) a level of peer pressure to settle disputes on the water and keep it out of the protest room.

Bob,

Hopefully the trend continues at the Worlds in November of little to no protesting during the regatta. Didn't we have one protest decided outside of the protest room at this year's Mid-Winter's?