'87 nacra 5.7

I just purchased a nacra 5.7 and tried to pull up info on the forum without any luck. I have a few rigging questions if any one out there can help.
1. How is the downhaul rigged?
2. there is a b;lock on (i think ) the jib haulyard. how does that work- what's it for?
3. The rudders seem to bind up when turned side to side, I mean really bind up. I dont know if the previous owner had things set up properly when I picked it up. what should I look for?
4. How are the bungees run for the rudder kick up. What size, etc.

Also, anything I should be aware of during rigging, or on the water?
Pics or comments appreciated.
Azcat
77 solcat 18 (for sale)
87 nacra 5.7
Feel the rush!!!

think that is included in the my old nacra manual that i put into pdf form

it is being hosted at the TheBeachcats.com site

eric e

here it is, in their technical area

http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=35212

rudders binding on my 1982 nacra 5.2 had me puzzled for a bit too until i looked closely at how the cross bar is linked to the pintles but 2 universal joints. traditional universal joints a position where they won't work smoothly and that what was happening to me. solution is to just twist the tiller extension a little to move them out of that area

having a block on the jib halyard allows you to change the tension on the jib halyard easier. tight gives a flatter sail for better upwind sailing and loose gives a fuller sail for better downwind sailing

do you have the pivimatic rudder kick up system mentioned in the pdf manual?

You can also solve the rudder binding problem by getting the upgrade kit for $37. It keeps the connectors between the tiller arms and the crossbar from rotating in the wrong axis.

http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?...;Category_Code=

OK so what your telling me is that nacra put a rudder system on all of their cats that is not functional? Somehow I dont think that they would do that. the U-joints that you are speaking of are not actually u-joints, but are welded together solid. Is it possible that I have something flipped the wrong way? The adjuster on the crossbar is on the port side, is that corect? The way it is set up now it seems to center the rudders when I let go of the tiller. I dont think I could turn the rudders all the way to the side. At least not without breaking something.

As far as the small block on the haulyard, I get what your saying about it helping to tighten whatever, but where does it attach, etc. I guess maby i'll have to set up the boat in my driveway this weekend and figure it out myself.

How do the bungees attach through the tiller tube? what size? I have some thick bungee but it wont fit through the tiller tube. How are the attachments made at the front of the tubes?

Looked at the pdf, it looks like the bungee is 5/16 but it dosnt spec.
It also specs an eye peice for the attachement to the pin at the front of the tiller tube. is that something that murrays sells?
The tiller connections on my boat are in mint condition, nop need to replace them.

By the way, I dont see many posts regarding the 5.7 nacra. arent there many of them out there?

It is functional, but not the best design. The upgrade kit makes it better.

The problem is that stock system doesn't have a lot of resistance to the crossbar rotating around the axis parallel to the width of the boat. It can rotate that way if you pull or push hard on the tiller. If the crossbar rotates, the pins connecting the crossbar to the tiller arms are no longer straight up and down, which binds the whole system.

With the stock system you can try to avoid this problem by torquing the connectors to the tiller arms harder (make sure the bolt has the little sleeve around it so you don't crush the tiller arm). Or get the upgraded connectors that don't rely on friction to resist rotation in the wrong axis.

Does anyone have a picture of the new upgraded system on a boat?

I've got it on my boat. I can take a picture tonight if you're really interested, but it's not terribly dramatic.

I just want to see it, I can't seem to picture how it is rigged with the upgrades you can purchase.

It's really quite simple. Just remove the old connectors from the tiller arms, drill new holes in the tiller arms 90 degrees off from the existing ones (i.e. straight up and down instead of horizontal) and pin the new connectors on.

Okay, that is what I pictured, but wasn't sure. I will be buying those very soon.

You can actually half-a** it using the orginal hole and bolt. The new connectors have a hole through the "face", just like th old connectors. The "ears" where you should pin it to the tiller arm will keep it from rotating even without a pin.

It sounds confusing, but when you see it you'll understand.

I think I will go all out if I do it, I already rigged a spinnaker on the boat, I think I can afford 37 bucks to upgrade the tiller system.

I looked at the upgrade kit for the tiller and it looks like what's already on there.
I went out and measured the free travel of the crossbar at about 6". This is about 5 degrees of travel in each direction before it binds up.
I really dont think i could even tack with it like it is now.

it's not a very complex system

how about disconnecting the crossbar at each end where it joins the pintles, (alloy pipe that is riveted to the black alloy castings that hold the rudder blades)

then test each rudder for full movement and the crossbar assembly, 1 of them has to be binding somehow

if you've a digital camera, posting pics here would help people pinpoint the problem too

I think that the 5.7 probably works slightly diffrent than the 5.2.
Is there anyone out there with a 5.7?
Murrays sells a conector kit for the H-20 that I adapted to work on my solcat 18 with considerable effort. Its the only thing that I have seen that looks like it would work. However, I dont know if the tube dimentions are the same on the H-20 as the N-5.7.Does anyone out there have an ansewer for that one?

I have a 5.0 and have seen the 5.7 and remember them being the same if they aren't then oh well. It is a pretty simple set-up but if your crossbar is binding in the bracket the rudders won't turn. Try loosening the brackets on each tiller arm (they have little lock nuts holding them so that they can rotate and see if this fixes it, then tighten them in the newly acquired position.

I dont think you guys areetting the picture. Is there anyone out there with a 5.7?

There is no way to loosen the tiller arm, It is riveted in place to the casting with about 7 rivets on each side. It's solid. It will not rotate. When the rudder is rotated so that the tiller arm is outboard, the line perpendicular to the pin which holds the crossbar attachment points down approx. 15 degrees when extended tward the center of the boat. when the rudders are centered, this line is level. When the tiller arm is pushed inboard all the way, this line points upward approx 15 degrees. This is what binds the brackets which hold the crossbar to the tiller arm.
Like I said previously, this seems to need to rotate on one more axis than it is allowed to with the upgraded tiller crossbar attachment. Has anyone out there found a solution for this problem on the 5.7 Nacra. will the H-20 upgrade fit the nacra tubes?

I see that the Catsailor store also sells the H20 /universal hobie crossbar connector. if someone knows the dementions of the tube inserts and can relay that info it might help.Thanks

I said rotate the crossbar brackets not the tiller arms. the set-up is the same.

maybe there are no 5.7 sailors responding because they haven't been able to turn their boats around.

That must be it, the rudders on the 5.7 don't turn because Nacra knew once you got on it you would never want to turn back to the beach....reaching forever!

well someone's not getting it

have dug through my pics and this seems to be the best shot i have of the join that seem to be giving you the problems

Eric, I have been drinking so I might be seeing things but looking at that it shouldnt turn....does the bar rotate upright? In that picture the "hinge" is 90 degrees off where it needs to be.

OH, and clean that boat up!!! I can see myself in the side on my 5.2, and it is older than yours. That boat is due a good cleaning and buffing with teflon wax.

that pic is from when i first got and assembled the boat

like azcat my rudders sometimes bind and as per my original post to this thread i tracked it to those "universals", as i called them, rotating into a binding position

when i feel them bind my solution has just been to twist the rudder extension which moves the joints out of the bound position and allows the rudders to turn

Rhino pointed out that murrays sold an updated part where the joints were fixed at a certain angle, presumably because many early nacras suffered this problem

my 5.2 is now in parts out at the lake but next spring when i put it back together i will be experimenting with ways to fix those joints at the correct angle to stop the rotation and binding

OK, now about my scruffy hulls, attached is what they looked like when the boat was first offered to me!. the rudder shot is after basic scrub down. since then i've spent a few hours sanding and using compound to get the hulls looking like gelcoat again. now the boats in bits for winter i can proceed with a bottom job and then start on my planned graphics job

http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/119481-hullscoolcatbluebigtilt.jpg

Hi Azcat, just a word from someone else who is toward the newbie end compared to most of the guys on this forum. I've found them to be extremely helpful, but it does help if you post a pic or two (as someone suggested) so that everyone can see your exact issue. In the meantime, I've found that the regular posters usually do see the picture and are aware of the various differences (or similarities) in models more than I am. But post a pic of that rudder joint if need be!

Eric, I think to redeem yourself you will have to show us a picture of the boat once she is cleaned up.

Azcat, give us a picture to see and when can help alot more just like papyamon2 said.

ALso for some more forum advice....if you ever see that my post was after 2am, ignore it! The odds of it making any sense or being relevant are slim.

Here are some pics

to port

to center

to center close up

to starboard

to stbd closeup

from the rear you can se how much angle the crossbar would need in order not to bind.
To port

in each of the pics the crossbar is being held paralell to the rear main beam
to center

from the rear, to stbd.

These pics should give a pretty good idea of what's happening.
When the crossbar is hooked up, it is very limited in the amount it can be turned to either side
It makes the tiller stay centered when released.almost like it's spring loaded.
If left like it is, it would eventually distort the holes in the tiller arms.
even if I force the tiller to the side very hard, the rudders will not go even half way to there full turn position.
It seems to me that the tiller should be able to be turned all the way from full port to full stbd. without binding.
There is only 6" of tiller travel before it begins to bind. this travel is only allowed by the slop between the attachment pins,the attachment holes in the tiller arms, and the same in the crossbar.
Note that the tiller crossbar is not being held in the raised or lowered positions, but is bound there by the angle of the tiller arm in relation to it.
I dont think that its a good idea for the tiller to self center. if the boat were to find itself sailing solo, It would potentially go in a pretty straight line, pretty fast.
And i'm not a strong enough swimmer to catch a cat straight up.
All you vets, dont be afraid to chirp in.
By the way, how long do I retain the title of newbie.

have you tried flipping the brackets around?

The bracket should pivot on the crossbar, not on the tiller. I could be wrong though, I'm still a newbie too!

The crossbar would not be long enough to do that. Even so, it ould only bind in a different place.I talked to the original owner today, and he said that this is the way he bought it new 20 yrs ago. he also said it turned on a dime. I dont think he has sailed a boat with unrestricted tiller travel though.

I think the adjuster is on the wrong bar, it should be on the cross bar rather than the bar coming from the rudder.

But I am not sure about that.

just in case I mean not just flipping upside down, but putting the part pinned on the tiller onto the crossbar. No guarantees but that is really the only option you have to tinker with, nothing looked bent in your pics.

btw, nice boat, whats up with the other rollers on your trailer? keeping a dinghy under there?

the original owner had a dingy that he would trailer once in a while. i think I'll take them off and put them up front on the trailer. it might spread out the weight up there a little bit.
I tried all of the above. No difference.
Did you look at the pics and notice the amount of rotation the tiller arms have when turned fully?

I didn't see you replied already. The distance the crossbar spans would not be changed by flipping/spinning those brackets. Would take all of 2 minutes to try.

Found this on google, look very closely at the brackets. Opposite from how you have them.

http://sports.webshots.com/album/547620683mZsIZq

Yes, The adjuster is on the crossbar as U mentioned.

He has a different attachment. The bracket attaches thru the rudder arm horizontally. this is the non upgraded attachment. Supposidly. Either way, it will bind up the same as mine.

I guess the questionb I now need ansewered is if anyone knows if the hobie upgrade will fit the crossbar and rudder arms of a N 5.7

well mine is identical to the one in the photo and there is no binding. If you've tried what I said by allowing the crossarm to rotate in the bracket (the angle will be wrong with the brackets on backwards as you have currently) then either something is bent or when the boat was made something was drilled incorrectly.

sorry I can't be any more help

you only need 1 part of the system to bind up the whole lot

i'm still unsure if which part is binding

so i still suggest pulling the pins that link the 2 rudders to the crossbar and making sure each rudder moves fully, side to side, on the gudgeon, and THEN pinning the crossbar back into the system

could the crossbar be mounted upside down?

It seems to me that you are only getting half your movement because of a previous "fix". This image shows what appears to be mild steel added on inside the "U" that attaches to the crossbar. I think that this part of the connector needs to be rotating around the end of the crossbar. The mild steel is preventing this.


Did you say that you switched the connector around so that what is on the rudder arm is now on the crossbar? What if the longer "U" section was on the crossbar and pivoting cleanly around its tip? Is the mild steel preventing this switch?
Here is a picture of Airborne's.


It seems like the longer U is on the crossbar.

Here is a page out of the Nacra Manual. In image 13 you can see that they don't even have the U around the tiller. Just a bolt through it(the hole can be seen on Airbornes photo) All rotation is around the end of the crossbar. So you have the upgrade kit, it has been welded, killing rotation around the rivet, and put on improperly?

Bobcat has it figured out.

The connector has been modified and installed differently from what was intended. The geometry of the pins is incorrect which is why they are binding.

But the solution is to buy new connectors and install them correctly, as in the above photo from The Beachcats.

well spotted bobcat, knew it looked funny but not smart enough to know why!

before ordering anything else azcat try reversing the u-joints at the end of the cross-bar as bobcat says

That is not a peice of mild steel. It is a plastic insert that I assume comes with the original design. The previous owner never took it apart. and the plastic peice even has a small dimple in the side of it that allows it to clip into the u-joint. I tried taking it out but then the rudders are very sloppy and the u-joints flop back and forth loosely. It's put together the way it was from the factory, it just binds up.

You've got to rotate those connectors 90 degrees around the pin. I.e. the connector should be coming off the tiller arm perpendicularly rather than straight off the end. The plastic insert will probably need to be removed in order to do that (I didn't think they could be removed, which is why I recommended that you buy new connectors).

It is also possible to install the connectors upside down. The pin that connects to the cross bar must be vertical throughout the whole range of motion. If you install them upside down, they won't be.

I rather doubt that your current setup is how it was delivered from the factory.

i got this from murrays

bernd

Whoops, ignore my previous comment, I mis-understood the photo. The problem is that the part of the connector that should be attached to the tiller arm is attached to the cross bar and vice-versa.

The connector is two brackets welded together. The shorter bracket should be attached to the tiller arm, and the longer bracket should be attached to the cross bar.

You are almost there. There is actually a port and starboard connector. Look at the picture of the 5.2 posted earlier and you can see what looks like a Prindle P stamped on the connector, and it's on the port side. Recent long hours on a 5.8 rudder system refit yeilds little known fact.

I fliped them around and the binding is gone.It has full free travel.
Yippee kaiaaay M F.
I just read the last post from Dave R and need to check for the "P".
The plastic peice was a little peice of plexiglass. I think that someone put it in there to take up some slop, but every thing was backward.
Thanks to everyone for the input.
It's really great to get such a huge response. I could have messed around with this for months. and still not gotten it right. I had decided to take it out this weekend with the rudders bound up just to see how it worked.
Now on to the next challenge.
In the murrays cat. it has a note about the bungees for rudder kick up. it says to use 5/16 bungee doubled and the manual says it is attached to the tiller bracket pin.
I did this and pulled the bungee as tight as I could and the rudder still falls half way down.
It's mega stretched and I dont think it will last very long.
any suggestions?

i think they all do that

brought mine back from the lake today, checked and they hang down about halfway when the casting is held at the normal angle

the nacra rudders must be much heavier than the plastic rudders i've seen on hobie 16's

the bungee system is just to kick them back and prevent transom damage, not to hold them clear of the water

i'll be adding another jam cleat to the alloy tubes that are riveted to the castings to hold them up all the way

got the idea from looking at airborne's 5.2 pics, some of which have been posted in this thread

Glad to hear you finally flipped those around and did not waste your time and money with the hobie brackets. My rudders are the same as yours and the bungee only holds them up barely halfway, if I trailer the boat I usually take them off, or I wrap some line around the rudder blade so that it holds the rudder in the up position. If you want to pull rudders up while sailing then you have to do what erice suggested.

i use the 5/16 bungee i got from murrays. it works great
kicks up and stays up if i release it during sailing.

first i replaced the old ones with a bungee from west marine, also 5/16, but it was not strong enough to hold the rudders up.

bernd

thanks for that tip, I will have to check out the murray's bungee.

It' s funny you should say that. I got my bungee from west marine and it seems weak. I'll have to check out the murrays bungee also.

The 5.7 has a boomless setup, anyone have pics of how this is set up?

Boomless is incredibly simple, I don't have any good pictures right now but if you can setup your solcat you should be able to figure this out.

Nacra went boomless on a lot of their boats in the past and still do with at least the 570 and 500. I don't know what your sail looks like but it will be fairly similar to a normal sail except that the mainsheet has a hook that attaches to one of several holes or a track on the clew of the main.

setup on my 5.8

this is the old "sliding" setup

bernd

I am trying to figure out the downhaul rigging, pics or tech drawings would be a great help. It is a boomless rig.
Also, do I need to put on a clew travler? I can see where the previous owner hung the rear main sheet system, but it seems that this position should change depending on conditions and direction. Right?
How about mast rotation? How is this set up?

Azcat:

Here is the downhaul setup you need:
http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jndrpnrrd0
Make sure you make your line long enough to go from trap to trap. That way to can adjust it from the wire.

As for having only one hole for mainsheet attachment. My Mystere 4.3 is like that and I have no problems. Telltales fly fine and she moves. I caught a Hobie 16 that was WAY ahead of me going to weather with no trouble.

As for mast rotation, I have none. Have to ask someone else on this.

Hope this help. Good sailing.

Doug

A clew traveler and mast rotation are not important if you don't plan on racing. They'll help you squeeze that last little bit of performance out of the boat when going down wind.

I'm not sure about the downhaul for your boat. The foot of the main sail may come down too low for you to use that 8:1 system that Doug linked to.

If you take a picture of the bottom couple feet of your mast and main sail we should be able to tell you how it was rigged in the past.

How about this one.
I just purchased a jib furler for my Nacra 5.7 and have some rigging questions
Will I need to cut down the forestay? I have a hobie 18 furler wire setup with the pigtail etc. how would this be rigged?
i also have a short pigtail that I got with the furler. is this all I need?
If anyone can tell me how to avoid the trial and error portion of rigging this it would be greatly appreciated.
Also, the jib is zippered to the forestay, and therre is a small loop at the head that attaches to the jub haulyard. How much tension do I need to put on this? It dosn't look like it will take much abuse.
Pics of your rigging would also help greatly.
Thanks

so azcat,
what's it like going from the solcat18 to the nacra 5.7?

I dont know yet. I still havn't gotten her on the water yet. I'll let you know as soon as I get the kitty wet. I'm trying to get her set up the way I want first. Maby this week.