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portsmouth

Posted By: fin.

portsmouth - 11/20/07 02:42 PM

I must be really slow. I just found out some of you really, really HATE portsmouth racing.

Without foaming at the mouth, would one of you care to explain why? I understand the dissatisfaction with the extreme match-ups; say Aquacat v Tornado. But between similar boats, why not?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 02:49 PM

I don't know Pete. I love it. More boats, more people, more fun.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 03:47 PM

Some people, like Ding, fear math in all its forms. A trip to the grocer leaves him a gibbering mess. This is why he lives in a state with no local or state income taxes... the "%" sign makes him dizzy.

Other folks prefer to know where they stand when the cross the finish line, not hours later at the party.

Still others are convinced every boat but theirs has a "gift" rating, against which racing is futile.

Seriously - DPN has some problems right now, mostly due to not having been updated by the Committee in two years. Darline Hobock is now in charge again and you will not find a more fair-minded individual. New numbers in the next three months or so - Merry Christmas, Happy New Year. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Timbo

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 03:54 PM

Define "Similar boats". I don't think it works well when racing spin. cats vs. non-spin cats.
Posted By: Kaos

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 04:13 PM

Portsmouth is the best system we have. Much better than PHRF or the other systems.
Is it real acurate or "fair"? No. But it is better than nothing. We enjoy sailing and comparing boats, it enables us to do that. However it is just that. That are way too many variables in sailing to boil down to formula rating.
The biggest problem with any system is that darn wind. It keeps changing on you! Or has anyone noticed. The systems assume a consistant wind (which never happens). So the system will never work. However, it is better than sitting around compaining and doing nothing.
Sure, I hate portsmounth too. But I like racing more. So I will keep racing portsmouth.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 04:15 PM

Quote
I must be really slow. I just found out some of you really, really HATE portsmouth racing.

Without foaming at the mouth, would one of you care to explain why? I understand the dissatisfaction with the extreme match-ups; say Aquacat v Tornado. But between similar boats, why not?


Either you believe or you don't, and this subject has been done to freaking death.

Are you really that bored? Has the global warming thread lost its appeal? I'm sure you could revive the 'Why do people sail heavy boat's?' thread.
Posted By: fin.

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 04:48 PM

No Ding, I'm not bored, I'm trying to work with what I have.

If we tested the "class" argument by reduction to absurdity, the regatta would have been canceled because no class showed up to compete.

I think class racing is the ideal, but right now it isn't the reality.

Timbo: Spinnaker, non-spinnaker, overall portsmouth. You can still break out 5 boat fleets.

We had a small fleet at Carlisle (no 5 boat fleets). I ended up with a 1st place trophy in F-16 (2 boats) while an I-20 that beat me by 40 minutes got nothing (I'm sure they corrected out ahead as well).

My point is not to replace class racing with portsmouth. Rather, when we have small, mixed fleets try to reward the best efforts, not what boat you sail.



Posted By: John Williams

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 05:02 PM

We had 262 boats in 17 classes last weekend in Long Beach. The cats got put into the Portsmouth start along with 570s, 420s, and other oddities. The numbers didn't seem to work too badly - we were over early for the first start, went back and scored deep as expected. We hit one start just right, sailed a textbook race, and corrected out for the bullet. For a couple of the shortest races, all the boats corrected to within a minute - pretty tight. Ratings ranged from our 62.4 to 97.7. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 05:11 PM

Quote
We had 262 boats in 17 classes . . .


We had nine Cats at a wonderful facility, with great weather and a Saturday night dinner that was to die for. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: brucat

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 05:19 PM

I wouldn't say I HATE Portsmouth racing, but I MUCH, MUCH, MUCH prefer SMOD racing my Hobie 16.

Why? Besides the obvious (it's more fun to be in close proximity to lots of other boats that are the same, so you can have more tactical situations, win outright, etc.), when you win on corrected time on a Hobie 16, it's always because your number made it happen. Except those time when you're actually physically ahead of a "faster" boat on the course, then that's just a bad skipper (you really shouldn't have beat that boat). If you're on a "slow" boat, you never get credit from the "fast" boats for actually beating them.

(EDIT: I'm not limiting this to ME beating "faster" boats, that's only rarely happened in the past 10 years. However, much better Hobie 16 sailors than I get the same reaction, regardless of what other championship titles they may have earned over the years in MUCH harder fleets.)

Flame suit on... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 05:56 PM

Is this the event??

Carlisle Classic 2007 - Multi Hull Results
Clearwater Sailing Center

You guys ran a race with 9 total boats and two boats each of OD classes F16, F18 and N20, with three boats in open class???

WHY?

The only thing that would be crazier is if you each had your own start!
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:08 PM

I was there racing on an I-20 and I agree that it was silly to only award class trophies when the individual classes only had 2 or 3 boats each. Results were posted as overall, but trophies were not awarded as such. Overall it worked out to:

Ding F-18
Langefeld I-20
Bedgood I-20

Not too sure what happened after that, but I think it was Pete (F-16), then T-Back (F-16).
Posted By: writer

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:09 PM

The Carlisle Cup is a benefit regatta for the Clearwater Community Sailing Center. We had several classes on the bay, including Access Dinghies with challenged folks sailing. I was the PRO for the catamaran course on the Gulf. Anyone who wanted to race showed up. Great cause, great food, great RC. We gave out lots of trophies. And that is a bad thing how?
Posted By: peter_nelson

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:12 PM

Portsmouth seems to work about as well in multihulls as PHRF does in monoslugs. As Kaos points out, it ain't perfect. Nothing is. Heck, even OD ain't perfect when the mfrs. keep releasing new models! Nacra has its Infusion. Now Hobie has a "new" Tiger! Of course, the penultimate would be the "one design" class of A-cat!!!!

But when it gets down to bragging rights at the BBQ, there is nothing better. If you want to get serious, go "one design" (whatever that is!). Otherwise, crack a beer, wait for the wind to fill, and go for a ride!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:21 PM

It's not bad to give out lots of meaningless trophies. I don't think I mentioned trophies.

Hell, Special Olympics gives out gold silver and bronze medals for fleets of 5 boats if memory serves.

I understand Special Olympics cat racing.... I don't understand your approach to cat racing. Why do you think this is a good thing?
Posted By: fin.

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:21 PM

Quote
The Carlisle Cup is a benefit regatta for the Clearwater Community Sailing Center. We had several classes on the bay, including Access Dinghies with challenged folks sailing. I was the PRO for the catamaran course on the Gulf. Anyone who wanted to race showed up. Great cause, great food, great RC. We gave out lots of trophies. And that is a bad thing how?


It isn't a bad thing at all! We're just trying to get more boats on the water. The organization was tremendous, the participation from the Cats could have been much better.

My concern is that when people don't show up, they stop getting invited!

The dinner alone was worth the registration fee.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:24 PM

The racing was awesome, great fleet of sailors. I cannot thank the race committee enough for the job they did. The courses were awesome, and day 2 was challenging with wildly shifty super light air, but the committee stayed on top of it and moved marks accordingly. Again....great job, THANKS!!!
Posted By: Matt M

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:50 PM

Quote
the penultimate would be the "one design" class of A-cat!!!!

But when it gets down to bragging rights at the BBQ, there is nothing better. If you want to get serious, go "one design" (whatever that is!). Otherwise, crack a beer, wait for the wind to fill, and go for a ride!


There is a "One Desing" A cat - It is called the Unicorn. They were another regular A class boat at 1 point and opted to stay 1 design. Look what happened to them now.

Aside from the Alter Cup and H16 Worlds on supplied new boats there is no such thing as 1 design. Model year changes, deteriation of the boats, new vs. used equipment etc.

No doubt the preference would be to know exactly how you are finishing, i.e. a fleet of the same boats. This however, is not possible in many areas of the US and world, so rather than just pack it up as Mark seems to keep preaching, bring what you have to the event or there will not be any more.
Posted By: writer

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 06:50 PM

Overall results of the Carlisle cup:
David and Kathy Ingram 1-1-(2)-1-2 =5 F18
Karl Langefeld and Ben Keener 2-(3)-1-2-1= 6 I20
Dennis Bedgood and John Fodrk 3-2-(9)-3-3=11 I20
Bob Barton 5-6-(7)-4-4=19 N450
Clark Keysor and Patsy Shaefer (8)=5-3-7-5=20 F18 Tiger
Pete Pollard 4-(7)-6-5-6= 21 F16 Blade Una
Terrance Back and Tina Pastoor 7-4-5-8 (KNF)= 24 F16
Tom Hirst 6-8-4-6-(DNF)= 24 SuperCat 15
Charles Pickering and Kate Pritchett 9-9-8 did not sail sunday. H16
The Organizing Authority, of course, decides how the trophies are distributed among classes, not the race commitee. Dennis and John are the only ones who got deprived of a trophy if the OA had decided to go with overall fleet trophies. They had four sets of trophies. A decision was made.
Dennis and John have lots of trophies. The first time I wrote Fondrk's name in the Sailing column of the St. Petersburg Times newspaper the editor phoned to ask if I'd missed a vowel in his name. That was six years ago.
In this event there was ONE boat, a Windmill, in the Portsmouth class on the bay. He and his crew got a trophy. They supported the regatta!
Yes, we get more cats at the Saturday races at Gulfport YC. But we appreciate those who did show up to Clearwater Sailing Center this weekend.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 07:22 PM

Quote
so rather than just pack it up as Mark seems to keep preaching, bring what you have to the event or there will not be any more.

No...
Obviously you haven't read my numerous rants.

I believe that you race portsmouth overall... and split out your one design classes FROM that overall race... WHEN you can. (Carlisle... doesn't have three boats in a OD class)

Moreover, I think that EVEN if you get 7 or so boats in a one design class at a regatta... IF the OD class would leave 3 boats in a left over class... the Regatta Organzor should NOT give you a OD start or class.... In the long run... the three boats in Open will melt away.

Finally, I think you need about 10 boats in a class to have a reasonable level of competition within the fleet. Without keeping a close eye on this factor... the reasons to show up at a regatta diminish.

So... my goal would be 10 boats in a OD start and 10 in a portsmouth start to maintain the viablity of the sport over time.

You guys in Florida seem bound and determined to prove that OD is best... to the point to extinction!

But Take heart! ... you guys are not the worst.... the Mad catter awarded trophies to one design fleets of one boat... Now THAT is a way to grow participation in a competitive sport.

My question to you is... How do you think that a two boat one design fleet of F18's will grow the fleet of F18's.
It's been what... 7 years for the F18's... How is it going with this strategy.
Posted By: brucat

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 07:40 PM

Quote
Aside from the Alter Cup and H16 Worlds on supplied new boats there is no such thing as 1 design. Model year changes, deteriation of the boats, new vs. used equipment etc.


Pretty sure I completely disagree with this definition of one-design.

You absolutely, positively don't have to have a brand new boat to win in Hobie 16s (arguably the toughest/deepest fleet in the country). You should maintain it, and all upgrades that are allowed into the class rules become available for anyone to implement on an older boat. But to say that a boat that is a few years old is no longer one design is QUITE a stretch.

Mike
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 08:21 PM

Oh Mikey, You are kind of new here and now you have been drawn in. Brace yourself.

I think that you race portsmouth when you have to and one design when you can.
There are probably a lot of guys out there that have never raced in a 60 boat one design event. It's hard to explain if you haven't been there.

Mark: The Madcatter makes up Trophies well ahead of time. We give the trophies away. What else should we do with them? Some years the numbers are there and everyone gets a start. When the numbers are not there, all the small groups get one start. It's kind of hard to slam what could be argued as the most successful weekend regatta in the country. I would bet there isn't a close second for a ten year boat average.
I do think you and I agree on the importance of the social scene at these events.
Come May I will fire up the grills, as always, and make sure the rum flows. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 08:35 PM

Guys:

Let's just sail, race and have fun. Who gives a *))()* what you sail. We do it for the love of the sport and as long as you aren't hurting anyone, who cares if you win or loose? Enough.

Doug
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 08:53 PM

I don't understand why Hobie doesn't allow the less than (insert number here) fleets to be raced together in a portsmouth start. Granted more work for the RC, but other than tracking time and scoring software what are the drawbacks?

Gives Karl something to do while his FX-One fleet is under construction and until the TheMightyHobie18 can't get it up any more.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 09:10 PM

Pat, I am not slaming the mad catter. I point out the one disconnect in your great event. A 9 boat regatta and the 90 boat madcatter are not comparable. But... you have to admit... when a club trophies two boats in a class... the only thing that can trump it is a club that trophied a one boat class and you guys came to mind.

I think you miss an opportunity to get the dead hobie boats scattered throughout the north east to your event. If you gave people a racing reason to come by putting those odd hobie dead boats into a HOBIE portsmouth class... I bet you would get more of them to make the Madcatter the one event they would do in a year... (who knows... the spark might reignite and the next thing you know... they want a tiger.)

My point is... year after year of giving away a Hobie 20 trophy or an FX1 trophy or an 18SX trophy has not generated a class... (not to mention the questions of what is the rationale for why you would buy these trophies based on the past turnout in these classes in the first place)

Perhaps the possiblity of a race in a portsmouth fleet of dead boat society hobies and the great party would give you a better outcome.

We all agree
The goal is to grow the fleet through racing!

If you think that running OD races with one or two boats is a growth strategy... OK... show me some evidence.

I propose the alternative above.

Somebody asked... What's the harm with lot of trophies... Well, the YC's that I work with get really bent out of shape in giving trophies out with out a reason. The old school guys value the competition... not the participation. So... they sniff a bit... if I ask for trophies that go too deep.
Do they notice what we do in our own events... I don't know... Since we are trying to build our standing the in larger sailing community... I don't see any merrit in bucking this culture.
Posted By: brucat

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 10:10 PM

Thanks Pat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mark, I don't think there's any harm in running events / awarding trophies any way the host club sees fit. With any luck, they know what their members / racers want, and are trying to meet that need.

If a Hobie club wants to give trophies to everyone and their babysitter (hey, I could use one of those next summer), GREAT! If a yacht club wants everyone to wear blazers while they give out three trophies, that's up to them. The sailors will support the events they like, and most of the time, it has more to do with the sailing and social scene than trophies, lunches, etc.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: portsmouth - 11/20/07 10:12 PM

Quote

The only thing that would be crazier is if you each had your own start!


Awesome idea! I'll request for next year.
Posted By: David Ingram

MAKE IT STOP! - 11/20/07 10:14 PM

How many times do we need to talk about this. I'm going the global warming thread.
Posted By: tback

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 02:54 PM

Quote
including Access Dinghies with challenged folks sailing.


That was worth the entry to see them getting rewarded with trophies. (oh and it was mentioned that the dinner was AWESOME ... and they had enough for 2nds).

I'll go back ...
Posted By: Acat230

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 03:10 PM

[quote
You absolutely, positively don't have to have a brand new boat to win in Hobie 16s (arguably the toughest/deepest fleet in the country). [/quote]

Ummm well the A-Class sailors might disagree with you for bragging rights on that one! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We are trying to get a club one design sailing program going again at my yacht club. We have a mix of Lasers, 420's, Flying Scots, Sunfish, an I-14, and my A-Class. If we can get 8-10 boats sailing on the weekend, that is a big first step and we believe racing Portsmouth with a mixed fleet is the first direction we will go. The hope is interest in specific one designs will develop from there. My hope is getting lapped by an A-Class will open the eyes of some dinghy folks who think catamaran peformance has not progressed beyond the original Hobies and Prindles of the 70's and 80's.

I do agree that the odds are typically stacked against a well sailed non-spinnaker boat racing a well sailed spinnaker boat in Portsmouth. I don't believe the Portsmouth numbers of many spinnaker boats actually reflect how fast they actually are but I am sure they will evolve.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 03:35 PM

I would most definitely fall into the category of hating Portsmouth racing to the point that I quit going to events that did not have enough boats for one design racing and did no racing in Florida for several years before finding a one design boat that was being raced.
My reasons are: I race not only improve my own sailing skill but to also prove my skill. I want to improve boat speed and tactics. If you are not sailing the same boat that I am on, whatever it might be, then the comparison is mathematical and the race is a drag race not necessarily tactical and I don't enjoy that. Also as accurate as the Portsmouth ratings might be for some boats, they are not good for all conditions. I want to know that I won or lost because of my actions not because of ratings. To most sailors, I appreciate that it is about getting out on the water with friends and having fun and Portsmouth ratings allows multiple classes of boats to do that.
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 03:37 PM

Sorry Ding, It's cold up here, so for the next five months we will "debate" online about how to increase our numbers, promote youth sailing and the merits of one design.

Mark: I'm just keeping you honest. I have always believed that giving away a lot of trophies, t-shirts, food, drink etc.. is good for the event.
When I chaired the 16 NAC in Syracuse, I promised my 9 year old daughter she would "Win" a trophey. To make that happen we gave away a competitor trophy to everyone that showed up.
The kids in the youth event cheered every team announced from the bottom to the top like champions. It was very cool and provided some insight into what is important to them.

Doug: I wonder if it does matter what boat you sail. It seems that on a National level that the H16, the F18 and the A cats can field large events. If more sailors gravitated to these classes wouldn't it make our sport stronger? I could debate both sides of many of these issues and am not sure myself what is best. Food for winter thought.

Happy Thanksgiving
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 03:58 PM

Wow, Kathryn Garlic
How about posting a picture of your new toy.
Say hi to Paul, Have a good holiday season and we will see you at the Madcatter.
Posted By: BrianK

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 03:59 PM

Quote
We had 262 boats in 17 classes last weekend in Long Beach. The cats got put into the Portsmouth start along with 570s, 420s, and other oddities. The numbers didn't seem to work too badly - we were over early for the first start, went back and scored deep as expected. We hit one start just right, sailed a textbook race, and corrected out for the bullet. For a couple of the shortest races, all the boats corrected to within a minute - pretty tight. Ratings ranged from our 62.4 to 97.7. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Mono West Coast Sellout. What happened to you.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 04:26 PM

Mike,

I fully agree that you do not need a new boat to win any championship. I was just trying to point out that there are always going to be differences in equipment and hence excusses around the keg after as to why some one beat some one else. When I was racing the H16 there was constant talk of who had the new sails, or boat or who was lighter etc.

I would much prefer everyone be on the same boat, but that is not viable where I sail now. I do this for my social outlet. Part of that is competition. And although it is not a perfect tactical 1 design scenario, I still judge myself by the boats I am around without regard to the rating. I am not doing this for trophies, but fun. I want to try and have better mark roundings, sail sets, starts etc than those I am racing against whether its a H16, I20 or a F18.

All of this is about getting more people out to events. There is not enough participation for large 1 design fleets very many palces. The people and the party is what keeps me going to these anyway.

The other item for me and this may not be true for anyone else, but I want to enjoy the sail while I am doing it. Competition is very attractive, but if the whole world decided to move to Waves, I would likely bow out. The Wave for me, competion or not, is not fun in less than 25 knots of wind and that does not happen to often in FL.

I am bringing my kids into this now and as long as I can still raise my mast and they have cold beer, I want to keep going. If Portsmouth is what we have, so be it.

Matt
Posted By: brucat

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 04:38 PM

I knew that would come up, Bob. Surprised it took so long. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Matt, you're right, some people will always find an excuse for losing. Some folks (like Donald Trump) would say that THAT'S WHY THEY'RE LOSERS!!! Winners find ways to win, period.

I've sailed Portsmouth events, even won a couple. Not my first choice (compared to SMOD), but better than sitting at home cutting the grass...

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Mike
Posted By: hokie

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 05:29 PM

Quote
I would most definitely fall into the category of hating Portsmouth racing to the point that I quit going to events that did not have enough boats for one design racing and did no racing in Florida for several years before finding a one design boat that was being raced.
My reasons are: I race not only improve my own sailing skill but to also prove my skill. I want to improve boat speed and tactics. If you are not sailing the same boat that I am on, whatever it might be, then the comparison is mathematical and the race is a drag race not necessarily tactical and I don't enjoy that. Also as accurate as the Portsmouth ratings might be for some boats, they are not good for all conditions. I want to know that I won or lost because of my actions not because of ratings. To most sailors, I appreciate that it is about getting out on the water with friends and having fun and Portsmouth ratings allows multiple classes of boats to do that.


I agree that one design is ideal but how can you say racing portsmouth will not improve your speed and tactics? If anything you need to do these better in case there is a boat that favors the conditions that day. You probably also have a greater chance of encountering more and better sailors than if you race in a small isolated OD fleet. For most cases I would think your position within a portsmouth or OD fleet is probably going to be relatively the same if you actually have good competition in your OD fleet. This is especially the case when the portsmouth fleet is large enough to be split into spin/nonspin and/or A/B fleets.

And as far as the prove your skill thought, who are you proving this too? Do you really care if the guy in the aquacat sailing his first race thinks you are a good sailor, or do you think if he beats you he is going to think you have no clue what you are doing? I know I have never gone onto a race course to assert my superiority (or inferiority <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) or seen someone else do that, and if I did meet someone like that I would probably avoid them.
Posted By: Jake

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 06:53 PM

Quote
Quote
I would most definitely fall into the category of hating Portsmouth racing to the point that I quit going to events that did not have enough boats for one design racing and did no racing in Florida for several years before finding a one design boat that was being raced.
My reasons are: I race not only improve my own sailing skill but to also prove my skill. I want to improve boat speed and tactics. If you are not sailing the same boat that I am on, whatever it might be, then the comparison is mathematical and the race is a drag race not necessarily tactical and I don't enjoy that. Also as accurate as the Portsmouth ratings might be for some boats, they are not good for all conditions. I want to know that I won or lost because of my actions not because of ratings. To most sailors, I appreciate that it is about getting out on the water with friends and having fun and Portsmouth ratings allows multiple classes of boats to do that.


I agree that one design is ideal but how can you say racing portsmouth will not improve your speed and tactics? If anything you need to do these better in case there is a boat that favors the conditions that day. You probably also have a greater chance of encountering more and better sailors than if you race in a small isolated OD fleet. For most cases I would think your position within a portsmouth or OD fleet is probably going to be relatively the same if you actually have good competition in your OD fleet. This is especially the case when the portsmouth fleet is large enough to be split into spin/nonspin and/or A/B fleets.

And as far as the prove your skill thought, who are you proving this too? Do you really care if the guy in the aquacat sailing his first race thinks you are a good sailor, or do you think if he beats you he is going to think you have no clue what you are doing? I know I have never gone onto a race course to assert my superiority (or inferiority <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) or seen someone else do that, and if I did meet someone like that I would probably avoid them.


Nothing will improve your skill better than sailing with like boats. If a Supercat 20TR pass you while you are on a Hobie 16 you are not going to learn much about making your boat faster. If a Hobie 16 rolls over instead, you can learn something about how they have set their sails, how their weight is positioned, how they are working the tiller or sails, etc to determine how they bettered you. The Supercat was going to pass you anyway (or vice-versa).

I sailed Portsmouth for the first three years I sailed and I started to get really frustrated because no matter how many books and theory I would read, I wasn't getting any better. Once I bought the F18, I was sorely at the back of the pack but quickly improved to the point that I can compete with the big dogs occasionally. Same goes for my Nacra 20 experience.

You just can't learn to be fast in an open mixed fleet sailing apples against oranges.

BUT WAIT! I'm not saying portsmouth isn't worthy. Handicap racing provides racing for people who don't have a class to support their choice in boat. Versus not racing at all, I will race handicap - but I would choose some form of one design racing any day.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 07:26 PM

Quote
You just can't learn to be fast in an open mixed fleet sailing apples against oranges.


Jake, I agree with your point on learning IF you take it to the extreme but isn't this a red herring. The issue is... two boat one design racing ... or 6 boats in a spinaker portsmouth race where 4 of the boats are virtually level rated with two boats that are aprox 3 minutes per hour faster or 9 boats in an overall race.

This situation comes up all the time for small regattas.

So, Like Timbo?? I don't understand the reasons for taking nine boats and choping them into 4 classes for the weekend.
Like him, I would want to race the other 8 teams... not just the guy in my OD class. The big fleet is how I would view the race.

Would the majority of sailors in Fla rather race two boats OD then 6 spin boats PN or 9 boats overall PN?

I also don't understand the long term strategy for keeping racing going in that area. How does a two boat one design race lead to more racers on the water.

How do you see this working?... Is it practical?

The ONLY place that you might point to would be the Tiger fleet centered in Syracuse. In this instance, the Yacht Club (Hobie Class Assn) did what any YC could do... No other boats that would compete with this boat class are allowed to race in our regional events. So... If you want to race a spin boat... you HAVE to get a Tiger.

Pat sort of refered to this. When he asked... would it not be better for the national racing scene to have 3 boats. H16, A class and F18?

Of course as soon as you have another club or those pesky f16 guys do their own thing... or the Nacra 20 guys get organized and do their thing.. the monopoly is broken and your ability to grow from two boats to 10 is limited.

So... if you can't control access to the racing.... I don't see how you can make this OD strategy work.

Mark
Posted By: DanWard

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 07:32 PM

And as far as the prove your skill thought, who are you proving this too? Do you really care if the guy in the aquacat sailing his first race thinks you are a good sailor, or do you think if he beats you he is going to think you have no clue what you are doing? I know I have never gone onto a race course to assert my superiority (or inferiority <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) or seen someone else do that, and if I did meet someone like that I would probably avoid them. [/quote]

It's not about personal superiority, (Were just getting blown around in little plastic boats.) Itís asserting superior sailing skill and thereís nothing wrong with it. It goes to the heart of competitiveness. Kathryn is a very accomplished sailor and understands that it is all about measuring, improving and demonstrating skill, both to your self and to your competitors. You have seen it; itís why we try to cross the finish line first. Portsmouth racing is less satisfying because it obscures the demonstration of skill.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: portsmouth - 11/21/07 07:34 PM

Just thought I would point out that the big boats will spend a lot of time and money competing on handicap

Key West Race Week has LOTS of handicap racing.

this PR clip was snagged from XS Racing
Quote
As entries come in we're hearing exciting news from racing programs all over," says Event Organizer Peter Craig. "From custom IRC programs and established one design classes to PHRF boats seeking the 2008 National Championship, it's shaping up to be another impressive fleet."



IRC is the equivalent of Texel
PHRF is most similar to Portsmouth. (its pseudo statistical)

Our equivalent to Key West is the US Sailing Area Championships (except for the location of course <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
Posted By: Brian_Mc

Another Rant - 11/21/07 07:36 PM

I am not even a racer, but I am a fan of cat racing, and a cat sailor.I follow the sport the way some follow football and baseball. I belong to Fleet 448. In the 10 years I've been sailing cats I have gone to a few regattas almost every year. I've watched participation fall off, and seen the demise of some fleets and regattas, like Fleet 28 and The Buzzard. Some of this I attribute to the "Hobie Edict", on the other hand a few Hobie fleets are flourishing, and "growing our sport" with remarkable success. I am so impressed with fleet 204 that I often find myself chanting along with them. If giving out more trophies works, I am all for it! There is an advertisement in Catsailor that has a pic of Pat and Sarah racing together. For me, that epitomizes what sailing is all about. Mike has been a great contributor of his time to 448 and division 12. He and a few others keep it alive and doing pretty well. If he can follow Pat's model, then we'll have another generation to pass our fleet and sport onto. But seriously, if Portsmouth is the only option, it at least means a start!
Posted By: writer

Re: Another Rant - 11/21/07 08:32 PM

Just for the record for those who may be confused: The Carlisle Cup last weekend had one start on the Gulf for all cats for each of the five races. Nine boats. We broke the trophy-giving into groups.
The regatta raised about $6000 for the Clearwater Community Sailing Center programs. With monohulls on the bay there were 62 boats, 90 competitors and 40 volunteers. And lots of trophies.
Posted By: hokie

Re: Another Rant - 11/21/07 10:52 PM

Jake, H16 and Supercat20 aren't exactly like boats, I think H16 and G-cat 5.0 or Supercat20 and F18 then you have a more fair fight. I agree with you completely though that if you can field a OD class of a few boats then go for it, but don't do it at the expense of the 2 local guys that have their old supercats or even worse put them in an open fleet with somebody on an old G-cat or something.
Posted By: hokie

Re: Another Rant - 11/21/07 10:55 PM

In the monohull world the SFBay 30s are a good example of how phrf can be used to keep things competitive. Without this fleet I would guess half the boats in it wouldn't be racing and there would be some guys trying to get a bunch of T10s or J30s together with no luck.

http://members.aceweb.com/borderline/sfbay30s/index.htm
Posted By: fin.

Re: Another Rant - 11/22/07 01:19 AM

I like portsmouth. I like class racing better, but portsmouth offers some unique opportunites.

In the doldrums on Sunday at Carlisle, I found myself next to Bob Barton on his N-4.5. He kept working, using every whisper of air he could find and stayed with me for a very long time. Yes, I beat him to the finish and yes he corrected out ahead. That means nothing. I was there, I saw the effort he put forth and I admire it. Well done Bob!
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: portsmouth - 11/22/07 02:10 AM

Hi Pat. I'll try to post a picture but I can't get it as small as it needs to be. Paul is run ragged accommodating my rigorous sailing program. We are currently practicing at every opportunity, including PHRF events, for racing one design in KEY WEST RACE WEEK. Most definitely see you at the Madcatter.

Attached picture 125553-CorsairFriday4.jpg
Posted By: chrisun

Re: portsmouth - 11/22/07 02:57 AM

John,

How does one get a hold of you? Your PM box here is full and your comcast email address bounces.

Cheers,
Christopher
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: portsmouth - 11/22/07 03:10 AM

Quote
Hi Pat. I'll try to post a picture but I can't get it as small as it needs to be. Paul is run ragged accommodating my rigorous sailing program. We are currently practicing at every opportunity, including PHRF events, for racing one design in KEY WEST RACE WEEK. Most definitely see you at the Madcatter.


YEA SWEET!!!!!!! I will be in Jacksonville Feb or so to live. Maybe I can catch a ride sometime. Pretty good mainsheet trimmer in local races on big boats.

Doug
Posted By: John Williams

Re: portsmouth - 11/22/07 03:44 AM

Hi Christopher -

Had no idea that my PM box had a size limit. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

My new e-mail address is john.e.williams[at]charter.net. I tried to send a note out to everyone in my address book a couple of months ago...
Posted By: JJD

Re: portsmouth - 11/22/07 10:15 PM

Hey John:
Enjoyed sailing against you last weekend in the Portsmouth class.
I finally got it together for the last start. Started on Port and to windward of the only other boat doing that (he was the overall winner of the Portsmouth class). Just sailed my boat and concentrated on speed without worrying where everyone else was. Nice to finish 1st for a change.
John Dudash
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: portsmouth - 11/23/07 02:08 AM

2 big reasons I like Portsmouth:

1. Cost- We can compete in an $800 dollar boat that had a broken mast against any other cat that will race. Yeah, if they have a spinnaker we probably will not do well, but with TheMightyHobie18's and others close in rating I feel we are competitive.

2. Modifications are allowed!!

I know for many this is not even a consideration. But for those of us that love the challenge of trying to improve the original design of our boats it is fantastic. And it ties into my first point since we plan to add some type of reacher or spinnaker and see if we can stay closer to the newer spin boats. Possibly try a squaretop main as well. Try these types of upgrades in a PHRF class and you tend to face a lot of resistance. I know from personal experience. Keelboaters do not want anything to do with a homebuilt or modified boat. You are supposed to go out and spend the big bucks like they did on some design that is usually no where near optimized for racing. Heaven forbid you have some personal knowledge and ability in putting together a fast boat on the cheap. (Gee, don't sound bitter, do I?).

Lastly, I am thankful we could show up at local cat regattas in an old boat and be welcomed to race against the new hot classes and be told we need to throw a spinnaker on to be faster!

Yeah, H16 is the economical way to go OD, and we did that when I was a teen (Fleet 141). But now that our crew weight is pushing past 360lbs, I much prefer the bigger cat.

Jim.
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