This one is for the kids.

I've been meaning to complete the Blade 12 design for some time. I started the
design back in December of 2003 but never quite managed to finish it off.
The resurgence of interest in a very young kids boat, together with the shabby way
in which the multihull fraternity have been treated regarding the Olympics got me
fired up to get back to the design and follow it through until I have one on the water.

My idea was to design a craft for the very young to get kids into cats from the
beginning rather than lose them to the monohull club. I figured such a craft has to be
very simple and easy to control, inexpensive, lightweight, and can be rigged in less time
than it would take to rig a Laser.

The Blade 12 has a modern hull shape and should it be home built will employ a building
method different to that used in building the Blade F16. That is too time consuming
for this type of boat.
This new method should allow the boat to be built in less time than it would take to build
a similar chined craft.

The absolute minimum of fittings and the ease in which all components can be either obtained
or built up should make this craft not only cheap, convenient but also very accessible to the
average family.
The most complex part of the boat is the system to support the mast.
To make, it requires 3 weld joints, drill, hacksaw and a hammer. When the boat is de-beamed
all you do is undo the bolt in the centre of the rear beam and the mast support and beam fold up.
Undo 2 more bolts and it comes apart.

The scale model tests that I have done along with some calculations indicate it will work.
Having said that the only way to be sure is to build it and demonstrate.

I hope to commence the prototyping at the beginning of January.

Anyhow, rather than write an epic that no one will read I'll post some rendering of the craft
in several configurations. Like they say. a picture is worth a thousand words.

In this rendering you see the boat in the beginners configuration.
Here it has spade rudders & skegs. These allow the boat to be sailed in water the kids can
easily stand up in to help aid their confidence and keep them out of trouble.

With the skegs, rudders and mainsheet remaining on the boat all you need to do is slip
the mast into the sail pocket, stand the mast and then thread the boom through 4 webbing loops,
(Tack, front mainsheet block, rear mainsheet block and clew) and you are ready to go sailing.

As the youngster gain more confidence and is looking for more performance the skegs come
off and the deeper rudders go on.
From my past experience with this hull shape in the conditions most likely to be used it will
tack nearly as well as a mono and lose hardly any speed as it does.

When I build a prototype I will build it with removable skegs and test it thoroughly with
skegs and c/bs both with deep rudders. The purpose of this testing will be to quantify the
difference in performance and handling between the two. I will then decide if the difference
in performance is worth the additional cost of manufacturing hulls with centrecases and then
manufacturing centre boards. As the finished craft would be much cheaper with skegs.
There is little point in making this decisions without first getting the data to ensure it
is an informed one.

I am confident in every aspect of this design. The only area that will benefit from
testing apart from the skeg/cb issue is the most appropriate mast tubing selection.
There are several criteria that must be met in order for the mast to meet all the perceived
needs.
Finally I have to thank Florin for offerring to help turn my computer models into something more presentable.
He has done a brilliant job.

Enough talking, it's time to put down the keyboard and pick up some tools and make it happen.
I will start January 1 and post updates on my web site from time to time.

wow! great pics, as you say a thousand words

how would it compare to the old hobie 12 and current bravo in terms of performance?

Wow!! That's too good for kids. I want one. Ed

You can't be serious. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phil, that looks spectacular!

Beautiful boat, my 8 yo is learning the H14 right now, and races Opti green fleet, but he is a die hard cat fan(Im so proud!), maybe this type of craft(High performing easy to use boat)will be the ticket for all of our kids. Sully's Hobie 14

Oh my Phil,
This is absolutely FANTASTIC!! Honestly, I think if you can find a permanent builder for the boat, this class may take off. You should offer options as to home building or buying from a builder. Also, I know this may be a bit off topic, but I was looking through a Harken catalogue, and noticed they had a diagram of a beachcat that showed parts used. It was odd however that in this diagram, the cat's mainsheet system was behind the tiller crossbar. It appeared as though the tiller arms were longer, and the tiller crossbar simply was in front of the traveler tack with the tiller extension attached. This appears to be much more simpler rather than passing the tiller behind the mainsheet blocks every tack/jibe. Perhaps this could be a feature on the F12 due to its ease of use?

Well, anyways, I am very excited to see that you are going forward with this great idea and I can't wait to follow your progress. What is the website this will be posted on by the way?

That is a beautiful design.

If you really want to compete with Optis, think MUCH smaller mast and sail. You could offer options (like the Laser) that scale up as the sailor grows.

Mike

Vinny,
I don't know if you noticed but the tiller cross arm is in front of the mainsheet so the kids will not have to pass the tiller behind the mainsheet to tack.
The Blade 12 is a bit smaller in beam and sail area than what the F12 guys are doing. I wanted to be able to stack it under the Blade F16 on a trailer.

Regards,
Phill

Phill, that is really sweet and its parentage is unmistakable.

I guess one important question in terms of promoting junior sailing is how to view the relationship between the different designs currently being discussed. There appear to be some significant differences in philosophy and design parameters. My assumption is that the Blade is intended to be OD rather than part of a formula class and so would compete with the other proposals directly. Of course even in a formula class different designs compete with each other, but with the expectation that all can coexist quite peacefully.

One view is that different OD 12' classes initially coexist in the market with the likelihood that one will ultimately dominate. Another is that the different designs may represent slightly different box rule proposals, and that ultimately one rule will dominate and spawn additional designs. However I think it is generally believed that a OD may be more appropriate for this segment of the market.

Interested to know if you have any thoughts on this.

Mark.

Are you saying that that this much sail area isn't safe enough or that the boat will be so fast it will scare the kids away?

I would have thought that the point of a multihull is to go faster. It's true that a certain amount of speed may be intimidating to a youngster, even if it is quite safe, but of course you can fix that problem by just buying an Optimist. I'm not sure that making a multihull more like the Optimist is the right solution.

please make it strict one design, that seems to be the "Fad" that the monosluggers are wanting. No parent wants thier child beaten because of someone having a "better" boat.

Certainly agree, but with multiple designs around one thing is certain is that there will be winners and losers.

Mark,
From my perspective I'm finishing a project that I started 4 years ago. It was always intended to be an OD.

Regards,
Phill

yeah, I see a better OD market on this one. That's one cool looking little boat and although I keep coming back to the feature to go stay-less and wonder about that one, it sure would be quick to setup and reduce the chance for damaged rigging during transport.

By going OD it enables a manufacturer and designer more options to reduce cost - such as the stayless mast setup. This probably doesn't enhance the performance of the boat but probably provides some cost savings, setup time, and service liability...which is a good thing from all aspects of ownership. This boat is undoubtedly going to pack in a good deal of performance but to compete with an F12 would keep it from offering things that might be marketable to a particular audience (like the stay-less mast, skeg keels, etc.)

WOW Phill. Very very nice. Maybe this has been covered, and if so I apologies, I just can’t take my eyes of the pictures to read for very long. It would be very good to be able to stack these for limited storage reasons. Like a laser rack.

Todd, screw building me boy the opti, build this.

Correct, but that's why I said IF you want to compete with Optis. There has been a lot of discussion recently that we should have a soup-to-nuts training/development program for kids on cats. To do that, you can't scare away the six-year-olds (or more importantly, their parents).

There's nothing wrong with the design as proposed, so long as you're not trying to win over six-year-olds (and their parents' money and time). However, if we don't get them young, we may continue (forever) to lose them to the monoslug world.

Mike

While I am a big fan and proponent of developing a catamaran to catch the attention of kids sailing today and to create a class that they can race. The concept is daunting. Just looking at the boat drawn here, several concerns come to mind. How many impacts are these boats going to be able to take t-boning each other at full speed. Remember, it's kids sailing these boats, it's going to happen. Is the construction used going to be able to handle years of being carelessly dragged up and down beaches, and launch sites? Can a child right the boat unassisted? I spent this past weekend watching a large opti regatta, between the RWB fleets, and the green fleet, there were probably 100 opti's on the water. Some of these kids are good, real good, but are they ready for this boat? Most kids don't graduate from an opti, to a 420 or laser (4.7 or Radial for that matter), until they are 12 or so. The opti provides a safe, reliable introduction to sailing for kids under that age. Putting them on a cat with the performance potential of this boat is scary to say the least. Instead of trying to find a boat to compete with the opti, we need to find a boat to compete with the laser and 420. This may be it, but we are fooling ourselves if we think it's wise to have kids sail and race this boat instead of an opti. Just my 2 cents, flame away.

I've re-read Phill's original post and still see no reference to Opti's, only the Laser.

You're right, but opti's were mentioned in other posts and threads of this subject.

Beautiful boat Phil. Ksurfer2 I'm not too worried about speed and power as that just comes down to the size of sail you put on it to match the conditions to the kid. The pain is having multiple sails.
Lots of different design 12ft cats out there with piles of screaming young houligans on them yeah lets do it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
regards

You're right John, Optis aren't specifically mentioned, I may have read into this too much "very young kids."

A very young kid (to me) is a six-year-old. As mentioned by others here, Optis have all sorts of advantages that we need to overcome (they are slow, crash-resistant, and "self-righting").

True, we don't HAVE to overcome this, or target six-year-olds. But, it would take a very blind person not to see that in most areas (and there are some good exceptions), the Optis feed directly into the next mono class, and not into cats.

That's why I think it's critical to have a cat that a six-year-old can sail, to bypass the Opti completely. It needs to be WAY slower than we would want to sail as adults, yet still be exciting enough to entice kids to sail.

Mike

We have 12 year old kids drive landyachts at 50mph speeds overhere. You'll be surprised how "brave" they are when they are allowed to start in easy winds and build themselves up to more challenging conditions.

Wouter

You should see some of the crazy stuff 10 year old kids can do on a motocross track.

Very cool looking boat. What does an opti cost? Price would be a factor as well if it were to be more than a home-built boat.

You guys are just SOOOOO not listening...

It really doesn't matter what a 10 or 12 year old is willing to do, it's arguably just too late by then.

Mike

Opti's are 2500-3500 US dollars, upgrade to the black spar package and its more. Lots of used boats(Opti's)and lots of fleets. Youre just not hoing to take away the market or the fleets with any cat...BUT...
You can capture the 10-12 year old market, the "graduating class" of Optis sailors, and thats where we should focus.
The Opti is THE boat to learn on, not a cat in any form. Let them get the basics, racing/starting down, then let them mature, then hand them the keys to a cat.
I have just started with my 8 yr old, and now Im getting my 5 yr old ready to sail an Opti next year. I plan on doing 10 or so regattas with my kids this coming year, mostly watching them, but maybe a H16 ride with the oldest kid in a race or 2. But in a few years, I want my sons sailing Phils 12 footer, and I promise not to let the bigotry of the monohull world influence them negatively : )


Brucat, on a light wind day maybe an 8 yr old can handle a cat(mine does quite well), but when it blows, they are not strong enough yet(IMHO) get them on YOUR boat when they are young, thats all they need to see, they will be hooked on the speed, I promise.

Depends on the kid. My 7 year old grand daughter went out with me on my Hobie 17 in 20 knots and LOVED it. We were like a ping pong ball in a washing machine with 3 foot chop on the bay. Downwind was a roller coaster ride and she was grinning from ear to ear. No two kids are alike, I think it is a GREAT design. Phil when you get a builder lined up let me know. Think you will have another hit like your F-16

Doug

Doug, I bet she wasnt driving and working the main... Thats why Im saying Optis, then cats.

I'm not so sure.

We need something to compete with the 29er at the point when kids change up from the Oppi / Topper.

I went Topper and then Dart 18 crew at 11 and helming a Dart 18 at 12. BUT the 29er did not exists then. I still sailed Toppers in the squad as we "had to"; but that was Saturday's sailing and then I did "proper" sailing on Sunday on the Cat.

If the 29er existed, I could have seen me going that route as it does look cool. I went the Dart 18 route because it looked cool (and this was 28 years ago).

Phil knows what he is doing. I'm sure the platform will be stable and he has enough width to make it so. and with enough purchase, sheeting should not be a problem. I think we to try to come up with a CAT to get them young. NOT try to change then after they are already a mono sail. That is what we need to revive the sport.

Just my 2 cents from 27 years of doing this.

Doug

Damn! Gimme 2 of those! Now you are talkinf serious attraction.

Good points. Most of the safety concerns can be solved with good engineering, like rubrails, righting pole, some reinforcements in the right places, etc.

This size cat would seem to be too much for kids under 12, but only when sailed singlehanded. Just put two on board the beginers version, with a small sail (quite easy with a freestanding rig) and it might take the startup monotype monopoly from the Optimist.

In fact, one could argue that two up is safer than one up: when one is incapacited the second can help; one steers while the other trims the sail; docking is easier; racing does not become an entirely zero-sum game (cooperation with the crew is required, together with competition with the others - which is a better training to life itself), etc.

(A digression: to what extent the fact that the only startup boat available (the Optimist) is singlehanded could be responsible for turning sailing competitions more agressive, non-cooperative and feeding grownup classes with athletes that see everything as a zero-sum game? I guess it deserves a specific discussion topic.)

Anyway, I think it can be a great startup boat for a couple. Maybe it will require slightly different teaching techniques, but there's no reason to limit its use to kids over 12.

Another bonus is that sold as a two up under 12 startup cat, its price, maintenance, rigging time and other parent enslaving work must be compared to that of two Optimists. It makes this cat clearly a better buy than two Optimists, be it for two siblings, for a couple of friends, mother and son, mother and daugther, cousins, sailing schools, etc. And we know what the kids will prefer...

Lastly, after the kids are hooked, this cat will remain a great boat for them at least two years longer than the Optimist. For some girls it will last for their lifetime.

It's a great boat and a great concept!

There is definatly a place for entry level monos like the opti. Kids need a very forgivable boat to learn on when they are 6-10 years old and have never tried to harness the wind.

Then.... the next logical step?

This made me chuckle. The point you're trying to make is perfectly fair, but I'm just imagining explaining to an anxious parent that yes of course your child may become incapacitated while sailing this boat but that's really quite ok because they'll have someone else there to get them back to shore. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Probably poor choice of words, the way that I read it was "busy" doing something else.

I know, I'm sure you're right - I was just amused by the image it brought to my mind. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOW! Phil those are beautiful! Dave, If your son can sail the H 14, he will think these babies have power steering! Hope someone starts building them! Nice work Phil! Mike, Just because we have plans to have Hunter skip the monos, don't think we'll let any harm come to him!

The rudder system looks a lot like the newest boat in the Nacra line (I don't know the name). It is a roto boat with skegs and a similar steering system.
"Funcat" maybe?

those are beautiful miniature performance cats

for those that are worried about kids ramming each other with them there is always these

http://www.minicat-uk.com/

With respect to the right pole. The design that Phill shows in his artistic impression won't need a righting pole for persons over 40 kg, irrespectibally of the conditions. The latter means that a 40 kg person (or heavier) can right it even in flat water and no wind.

This does assume that Phils design uses a plain alu mast and rig setup as given in this posting :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthre...ge=0#Post124554

I've already run the full body mass and length data on the F12 design that is very similar to Phill design and these are the results. Using the US demographic data, a 12 year old kid (both male and female) weight (on average) 41 kg. Beyond 15 years of age both will weight AT LEAST 40 kg.

A crew of two 8 year olds will also weight at least 40 kg combined; on average two 6 year olds will already put in that weight.


My basic point here is that we should start looking at real scientifically derived numbers and less to what we feel is the case. The scientific numbers show that the Blade 12 (and F12) designs are pretty well suited to these young teenagers and even crews of 2 made up from smaller kids.

Wouter

I personally think the spade rudders are a mistake. A little bit of heeling will pull the luff rudder out and force all steering on the single leeward rudder that will vent very easily because its area is so close to the surface. But it gets better when the boat puts its bows in a little. Now the leeward rudder is easily lifted clear of the water thus making the boat loose all steering.

Basically each time when you need steerage the most, the boat takes away increasingly large portions of it.

After having done the numbers I found that a 0.500 mtr deep rudder (less then 2 feet) is enough for a boat of this size. I think kids can easily stand in water that is just over 0.500 mtr deep, there is no need to allow the boat to be sailed in water less deep then that. But more importantly you don't want them to sail the boat in deep less deep that that. Again, when they put their bows down they will quickly reach to 0.5 mtr depth. And you don't want them to hit bottom with theur bows during a dive as that will most definately have them pitchpole or capsize violantly.

US demographic data show that kids (both male/female) over 6 years of age are AT LEAST 1.00 meter tall already. Kids of 12 years are already over 1.40 mtr. As such they can stand and survive in water no deeper then 0.75 mtr (6+ years) or 1.00 mtr (21+years). As such I see absolutely no need to NOT have plain rudders that stick only 0.5 mtr below the water surface. This negates the need for any spade rudders.

Indeed they tried this setup (spade rudders protected by the skegs) on the Funboat and the reviews were devasting.

Wouter

Folks,
I'm not saying this will replace the Optimist.
Everyone see this type of thing differently.
What I will do is explain how I came to this point.
I must apologise if this post is too long. I try to keep them short so as not to take up too
much of other peoples time but in this case thought I should explain how I got to where I am
with this concept.

I presided as Sailing Master and Head of the sailing school at a local sailing club for a number
of years and observed the folowwing when introducing young children to sailing.

In the beginning of my teenier we were using Hobie Hawks as training craft for the beginners.
As far as I can make out they are very similar to the Optimist mentioned, both in size and
sail area.

We would run adds at the beginning of each sailing season and get a very good roll up of prospective
young sailors but would quickly lose most of the students with only a couple staying on for the
season.

Finally my own children were old enough to learn the art so I took them along. It was not long
before I was having problems getting them to go along, I was going to give up when someone
donated a 12 ft windrush Surfcat to the club.
Once my own kids had a sail on the surfcat they were hooked.

As you could imagine this had me quite intrigued. So I discussed the matter with both
of them. They told me the same story. They did not feel safe in the Hobie Hawks because they were so tippy and in addition to this they were slow and boring. Depending on conditions they felt scared or bored.

So we got a couple more Surfcats and as we did we found the kids fighting over them and returning every week provided they got a cat to sail.

Despite popular belief they did not run into each other.

We set courses for the very young beginners in water they could walk. So if they had
any problems they could just walk to shore. Once they felt comfortable they we would
move them out into the centre of the lake and finally into the senior afternoon racing.

Anyhow the result of all this meant I got my sons a cat each.
This created another problem. Every time I went sailing I had to rig 3 cats as they were too small to rig their own.

This is where I came up with the idea of a super fast cat to rig.

When you compare the Specs of the Surfcat to my design they both run the same beam but my design is lighter , has a shorter mast and has less sail area.

The pics posted to date are renderings of a computer model. Florin heard what I was working on and approached me to help where he could . The pictures are a product of his excellent skills in applying rendering to the computer model. He has really brought the concept to life.

Now while from my own experience I believe something like this could make a difference.
There is no universal fix and we each have to do what we can to turn things around until something starts working.
Some things work for some people but we need to find out something that will work for most people.

I'm hoping that my efforts will help in catching those fish that used to get away.

Totaly agree, my 7 year old daughter is very much like yours, where as my 15 year old son, hated the feel of even just bobbing around a bit in very light wind with small speed boat chop. Now, put him in a powerboat with twin 250+HP motors at 80+MPH (yes, we very much trust the pilot of the boat) and a chance to to throw water balloons at his dad and crew, that is a different story. He just did not like the unstable feeling.

My fault, my fault. Please rewrite that stuff for me, we need to convince parents, not to scare them away.

This is not the first time I distort a message with insuficient language arts skills, after all it's my third language. I'm trying to improve, though.

Thanks!

It is impossible to catch all fishes, but today we are catching too few, so this is a great step in the right direction.

Anyone interested in a new cat class for kids should also take a look at the F12 forum as well. Phill's Blade 12 seems to be F12 compliant.

The group has many goals, but I like to think that the most important one is to equal or beat the Optimist and Laser as startup boats. All cat classes and manufacturers will benefit.

Take a look here.

Wouter:

I have skeg keels on my Mystere 4.3 and have no trouble controlling the boat EVEN when flying a hull. I still like the daggerboards. It would get them ready for the newer boats.

Doug

Doug,

I was talking about the spade RUDDERS, not the skegs.

Wouter

Thanks Brian, we're down to five years now...

Phill, thanks for posting that. It seems that you are targeting an early intermediate market, or at least, somewhat older kids (although you don't mention ages, you do say that the kids you had in mind had been sailing various boats for a few years).

Seems that I might be the only one who thinks it's a good idea to design a cat for six-year-olds...

Mike

Mike,

I had in mind 7 to 12 yrs old. Although this would vary depending on the child, conditions and level of supervision.

We had children as young as 7 or 8 on the Surfcats and this was usually their first boat. The mast was 3 ft taller with 20ft more sail area.

Regards,
Phill

Having not owned a boat with skeg keels (I don't think the H16 counts?), I don't really have anything to base this on, but what about a kick up centerboard like the H17's have? Not as good as a high aspect dagger but then the kids could just drive it straight up the beach that way.

hey phill,
please don't apologize for being wordy and taking up our time.&#12288;i for one feel much better spending my time on line seeing the results of real people like yourself and florin who share their time and talents so unselfishly than being stuck in front of the tube that alternates between crime and fantasy. The 1st makes you overly worried about going outside and living while the 2nd tends to belittle whatever accomplishments you achievement

my kids are 6 and 7 and so far on my 420 they have been either bored or scared with the result that they haven't wanted to come sailing much

but they thought my new cat was dead sexy and begged for a ride. unfortunately it was a bit windy that day so they ended up lying on the tramp clutching the main beam while waves broke through the tramp yelling SLOW DOWN

such a hot little cat in their scale would tickle them pink much the same way as having quality furniture in their size does

who was it who said, "people sail to have fun and i've yet to find anyone who found it more fun to go slow than fast"

Yeah,

Oh Crap! My kid was just incapcitated while sailing a CAT? I knew I should have stuck with a Laser...... (NOT!)

I've placed one of these renderings on my desktop and looking at it again, I'm quite certain...this a brilliant little boat. I want to build one and I don't even have any kids!

Erice,

Florin has made some really cool pics from the computer models.

When my web site is up I'll post all of them along with the pics that show the building process as I move through it.

Once the boat has been prototyped and proven to my satisfaction I'll get pics and video of it sailing, for those who still find the hull building daunting, I'll look at getting the hulls built professionally and shipped pretty much at cost to anyone who wants to build one up.
If we can capture the kids early and get them onto cats it will make me happy.

Just the way it is.

Regards,
Phill

It seems many are very interested in these small cats. We have been working on these over at the F12 forum (on www.catsailor.com) for a quite while now. Some examples are given in the attached pictures.

So I would like to invite everybody to come join us overthere and help get these designs finished and the class around them formed.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Formula12












[img]http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/125943-Blade12artisticimpression.jpg[/img]



Wouter

Jake, if you have the time and want to build one, do it, I'll buy it from you for my kids! I just don't have the time to do it myself. OR...I could just send you my kids! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Won't the tie-bar hit the mainsheet when hard over? Or is it far enough forward of the mainsheet to give enough steerage?

some of the supercats had the cross bar in front of the mainsheet.

Hobie Wave has the tiller bar in front of the mainsheet as well :




While it is not a common feature on beachcats it is not new either, I remember seeing it on some other small cats as well.

Wouter

I think Phill's design is awesome and applaud Wouter's work to get the F16 off the ground and now with the F12- BUT, please explain how the Hobie Wave (or any other small simple cats) cannot fill the role of beginner cat racer trainer? The only knock I see on the Wave is the weight.

First off, cool design. For the sake of thinking things through. How is it that kids are going to jump all over this boat and sail it? How is it different (not design wise) than say the Hobie Dragoon?




I know a few divisions here in the states bought several Dragoons and they just sat on the trailers and rotted.

How is it that this boat will be made popular while so many other's failed? I guess what I'm trying to say is, "What are WE going to do differently to MAKE it popular with the youth?"

When push comes to shoove any small catamaran can be used as a youth trainer/beginner boat. Sailing is sailing and anything with two hulls is a catamaran.

Still there are other considerations that we like to factor in. The Hobie Wave doesn't really come out on top in those area's and as the Wave is pretty non existant in area's outside of USA the choice for any cat or even a new design is pretty open. All will have to be grown from the bottom up in several world area's anyway so why not see if we can get to total balance right.

Personally, I feel the wave is not sexy enough to attract the youngsters of today and it also weights ALOT (it is heavier then a F16 !) , It's rig can be much improved and the image of the Wave is wrong in my opinion. It is mostly a resort boat and not really a performance oriented youth trainer. Comments I gethered last year about youth sailing the Wave were not overwhelmingly positive. As such it is not a clear winner, several of us feel the design can easily be improved upon. I do feel the youth deserve us getting their design right.

A side consideration is that the F12 is moving in a direction that is much cheaper and easily repaired using local resources. The unstayed rig is easily build/repaired by Dad using a metal saw and screw driver.

But I fully admit that other people may weight these points differently. We'll see which design wins out in the end.

Wouter

I've sailed the dragoon quite often and it is basically a small version of the larger spinnaker cats like the F18 and as such have all the drawbacks of these. Mostly it takes time to rig them up fully. The dragoon also weights alot, it weights the same as an F16 and takes the same effort to rig and transport (trailer).

F12 is much more like a laser dinghy, albeit much lighter. (de)Rigging it will be a flash, 5 min max. This boat can be sailing on an impulse. Roof topping is will be really practical.

Now I agree getting kids involved is always a difficult task, that won't change. But the F12 aims at making all other obstacles to sailing it (like rigging and dragging it) negligiably small.

Personally, I've been contacted by adults who are interested in the F12 for their own use. I think that when adults are sailing this boat that kids will consider sailing it sooner as well. It won't be so much a kiddies boat, which in my experience kids don't like. I have been wanting a simple, throw about and have fun boat like the F12 myself too. So I also believe that the F12 is more then just a youth boat; it will be an entry boat as well. Part of the growth and class support will come from this group as well. For the sailors that want a design they can take out for when they have 1 or 2 hours off in the afternoon or something. The dragoon doesn't attract these sailors.

Wouter

This is my rather un-experienced opinion on the matter, but there is not a simple but good looking small catamaran out there. You can look at the success of the laser and it's an incredibly simple boat to rig and proportionally it is a good looking vessel. Yes, the wave is a simple boat to rig, and while I enjoy racing on them from time to time, it's really not a good looking boat or one that could be confused as having some focus on performance. With regards to the dragoon, this boat looks to be every bit as complex as an F18...which is a bit much for the attention span of most kids.

My opinion is that the simplicity of Phil's creation will have allure. You don't have to understand sailboats or modern catamarans to put it together for a kid. Setup will be quick like the Wave, yet it is a boat that looks fast even while sitting still. The fact that you can home build, or purchase major components to do a final build yourself is a bonus. Several boats have danced with success in this size range but I don't think any of them have completely hit the target for kids. Take the Mystere 4.3 for instance, a great little boat and while it had a moment of glory, it didn't succeed - why?

I look at all these small cats directed at racing kids up to now they are either very complex or not very eye catching.

As I recollect, Div 3 had two of them. I saw them at two regattas back in 2003 or so. At one regatta they started them in the open division. The kids started each race (and made a nuisance of themselves IMHO) but never finished a race. At the other regatta the boats stayed on the trailers.

I don't have kids and don't understand them, but I think things might have gone better if they had more other kids to sail with rather than grownups.

We lose more grownup sailors due to their being too busy carting their kids around to various sporting events than to any other cause. If sailing became as cool as little league or soccer then we'd gain both the kids and their parents back. But that seems to be a very big if.

I really don't think the problem is rigging time. I know of 3 dragoons that were double stacked with F18's and ready to go to any regatta that kids wanted to sail.

These were dedicated parents who didn't mind rigging time. It never worked out, it was a youth program in a vacuum with no back up support. We need to identify the problem, then come up with a solution. Not to rain on any parades or anything, but...

Theoretical sailing experience on the Dragoon:

.5 hour drive to lake/ocean.
.5 hour rigging suiting up (actually takes me 15 min, but for the sake of argument)
XX Sailing time
.5 hour derigging
.5 hour drive home

Minimum of 2 hours.

Theoretical sailing time on a boat that's easier to rig:

.5 hour drive
.25 hour to rig
XX sailing time
.25 hour to derig
.5 hour drive home

Minimum time is 1.5 hours. .5 hour time saved.

Do you think that that .5 hour is going to get more kids into sailing?

I think we should identify the problem of why there is a lack of youth on cats. I personally don't think it's time or ease of rigging, or weight of boats. I guess this is sort of being addressed in the 'get more people into sailing' thread.

It's all interconnected tough.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

That's exactly what I'm talking about! The boats were there, they were sailing, but what happened? There was no back up to teach the kids how to sail. It was a program in a vacuum. That's where the problem is if you ask me.

If we look at it from further away, the same points remain just as relevant, but the picture becomes slightly different.

A kids' cat to compete in the Laser and Optimist markets needs not necessarily be the fastest one, the simplest to build, the cheapest, the most beautifull or the better engineered one.

It needs all of these and more:

a) Global acceptance, which translate into an "ideal" balance of the mentioned features and many others.
b) A strong worldwide class organization.
c) Professional builders in all continents (including homebuilders).
d) Excellent marketing.
e) Permanent support work from all cat classes, builders and sailors.

The goals and requirements are ambitious, but we trust the F12 project is a serious attempt with very real possibilities to achieve them. The Blade 12 can be seen as the first boat to be constructed partially as as result from the F12 project.

Please support Phil and all those who are volunteering their work, time and resources to create the best possible cat class for kids. It is essential for the survival of all cat classes and manufacturers, as well as the best long term response to ISAF's recent decision.

Exactly my point. And are you serious that you can rig a Dragoon in 15 minutes? I would think that a typical sailing parent that was sailing monohulls as a non-serious hobby would freak out when presented with assembly of a spin rigged sloop cat. I often get a kick out of watching people who can't figure out an Opti and there are a surprising number of them!

We get disillusioned because we deal with it every day and the rigging becomes part of the passion for some of us. For someone who has to call a repair-man when their garage door won't open, rigging a dragoon is an unimaginable feet. (yes, I had someone call out for the day at work because their garage door wouldn't open and they couldn't get their car out...and I believe them.)

Simple, easier to rig, inexpensive and good looking.
You pointed out that some people may not see rigging as an issue. When I had to rig my boat and a boat for each of my son's each time I went sailing it was.
For the parents that brought their kids to the sailing school it was. For the kids it was.
In this modern world of instant gratification every step that moves sailing in this direction for the young ,
until they are hooked, will help.
If you could find the time to read my rather lengthy post above you will see from my perspective it's all about the ones that get away.
I am at this point through my own experience as a sailing father with sailing son's and when I came up with this concept I was the head of a sailing school.
I am sure there are many people out there with different experiences that all lead them to believe there are different solutions to the problem.
To these people I say- please get to work and start implementing your solutions.
That is what I'm doing here.

I will be happy to be proven wrong provided you are proven right.

At the end of the day the result will be the same.
A growing fleet of cat sailors.

Regards,
Phill

Having sat through several meetings of my region's junior program organizational meetings.

A couple of points. Junior regattas are one day in the middle of the week. It's moms who have to get the kid's boat off the car or trailer, Weight is a HUGE concern.
They have coaching programs for parents on HOW to safely tie down and trailer the Opti!

For the Yacht Clubs... space becomes limited with 30 opti's and 20 lasers, 10 420's and now 10 cats. going out a small launch area. getting them up and down into the water must be EASY.

We have tried Junior divisions at adult cat races... Its had limited success... Better luck with a junior only cat races.

Your mileage will vary

Mark.

Phil:

I think your design is right on and if the 8 yr old grandkids end up coming to Fla later, I would one of the first to place an order if a builder is found. Keep up and good work and I vote for the daggerboard design, it will give them the feel of a bigger boat when they are ready to move on.

Doug

We had a race last year when the 4 420's with juniors capsized in the middle of a combined race. When the rescue boat went over there, they found the kids were bored and wanted to swim and capsize boats. The reaction by some was to chat them about being serious in a race but I thought it was great and it still is in my kids opinion the best days sailing they had last year.
regards

Jeff,
I think there can be too much emphasis on racing when getting the young into the sport.
The very best days we had were when we organised not
races but games on the boats.
The beauty of playing games in cats is while they are tacking, jybing, backing up and parking their boats to get the boat into the position they need. They learn really good boat handling skills without even knowing they are learning. As far as they are concerned they are just playing a game.

The added benefit is they come off the water all really happy and anxious for the next day of sailing.

Regards,
Phill

When I started sailing A 12ft surfcat as a young kid. All I wanted to do was see if I could fly a hull for as long as possable <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You got it guys fun brings them back next week and laughter brings other kids in. Like a sideshow if there's no kids on a ride screaming they give free rides. My latest entertainment for them is I've got some sheep drenching backpacks with the drenchguns so they can fill them up with salt water and attack the other boats like a big water pistol. They'll have to manouver just right or get awfully wet.
regards

I also see rigging time as a huge issue with clubs, at my club we have a two hour window to get 90 children on the water with around 20 boats, what usually happens, is half a dozen dedicated people start rigging before the children arrive so rigging time does not eat into that time, then at the end of the day the kids de-irig the boats.

So when people say rigging time is not an issue they are not talking from the perspective of one of the target markets which is cadet sailing groups with large numbers of cadets and boats.

P.S. Great design Phil, if only it could be rotomoulded!

Gareth

The mini-Blade looks very nice but IMHO is very similar to the Hobie Advance. (reinventing the wheel??)

Just a practical thought, I noticed that the Blade mast doesn't have shrouds but what happens when you tip it over on the beach? How strong is the mast?

http://www.sailinginspain.net/eng/item/MN010.html

I can see the resemblance, except for the jib, spinnaker, shrouds, curved crossbar, and trapezes. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Storage space is always an issue at the clubs I've been a member of, more so when it comes to cats. One club I was at wouldn't let us store our JY-15's on beach wheels, because 6 of them took up "too much of the beach". They wanted everything to stack up, like Lasers and Opti's or out on a mooring. I see this quick rig mast as a good idea, like a Laser, you can pull it out quickly and then have some racks built to store the boats stacked up, if you are going to have those issues at a club.

I wonder if a suitable windsurfer rig can be found to slip into the mast base tube? Seems you could offer a varitey of sail sizes, sort of like the Laser 4.7, Radial, full size, etc. Of course you are not going to be able to trap off that type of rig vs. a standard mast setup.

Also, if a -build it yourself- kit could be offered like the kayak kits, where every peice is pre-cut, bulkheads, resin, cloth, all that stuff included, you might sell quite a few to those who like to build. Then all they would have to do is buy the windsurfer mast/sail combo and be on their way. Boomless, and no traveler like the Wave today, would make it cheaper and easier for kids to learn.

Most of the kayak kit's I've seen sell for between $700-1,000 but that's for 16-18 feet, single hull. I'm thinking you could build two 12 foot hulls for not too much more than that, maybe double that price, ($2,000?) except you would also have to buy a tramp and cross bars, build some rudders and daggers if you are going to use daggers instead of skegs.

And the weight, the advance weights in at 115 kg (255 lbs) ! I'm not sure about the Blade 12, but the F12's we are working on come in at just over 60 kg (135 lbs).

Basically the Advance suffers from the same drawbacks as the Dragoon. It is a very heavy scaled down F18 with all rigging effort being largely the same. It also cost 5000 euro's.

The F12's we are looking at come in at 3000 Euro's or less. I suspect the Blade 12 is in the same region.

For more info :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/F12_weight_and_cost_push_rod_setup.xls

And of course the general website :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

Wouter

Nothing. The sheet and sail force loads are much higher while sailing then any loads that tipping the boat over on the beach can put on the mast. So if the mast is designed to hold up under sailing then it will do so as well when tipped over.

Phill has not specified what kind of mast he will be using exactly (none of us know any specs of that Blade 12 as a matter of fact) but the F12's that use a similar unstayed mast have taken the design of class 5 landyachting. These landyachts sometimes tip over at speed (think 30-60 mph) with the crew remaining in the seat and the mast survives without any issues. I did this two weeks ago in my own class 5 landyacht and I was almost at full speed (50 mph). These masts are pretty strong and dependable.

Tipping over landyachts over on the beach when we go for a break or a drink is standard operating procedure. Tony, if you ever want to do some landyachting just contact me and I'll take you along sometime.

Wouter

Tim,

Info about costs can be found in the excel sheet I linked to earlier.

With respect to your other points.

About halve a year ago it was discussed how the F12's could be stacked on top of eachother on this public forum, mostly because the masts come of so easily. A portion of the group is working on deep V-ed hulls that will allow a metal strip to be fitted to the keel. These boats be dragged over almost any surface (boat ramp ?) and can be stacked on top of eachother without any need for a rack. Transport will be much the same. The necessity to store these boats stacked was identified early on (last year) as an another beneficial quality the F12's should have. The deep V-ed hullshape also makes the keel line strong and robust under abuse.

Windsurfer masts.
I'm actually the one with Grob who has been experimenting with windsurfer masts in this role. My first impression is that this route has a few issues that are not easy to solve. The Blade 12 will suffer more in this respect as its pod design is less suited to keeping an unstayed windsurfer rig upright. The push rod setup as shown in the pics of the alternative F12's is better suited to taking a windsurfer mast but the issue of these masts being to flexible (pumping) is not totally negated by it. A seperate metal tube reaching higher up the mast externally (as Grob uses succesfully) is needed, however if you are going to use a bottom alu section to support the windsurfer mast anyway, why not go for a full metal tube mast. The top sections are not the problem, neither in weight or cost.

Also I don't think the F12's need many different sailsizes. One of the bettter aspecst of a catamaran is that these carry large sailarea's rather well without losing control even in big wind. I think we can do well with only 1 sail size or at max 2.

Apart from the hulls, the sail and rudders all other parts are very easily home-made by an amateur. The alu tubing mast costs 260 euro's commercially (it is basically a class 5 landyachting mast) and for that price I wouldn't go through the trouble of making one myself. The rudders can be scavaged of any other catamaran design like an old hobie or prindle. These being oversized is actually an advantage. Otherwise a new set of Dotan rudders will do fine. The sail can be homemade or sources from a local supplier. It is my intent to publize a decent sail design free of charge so everybody can build it himself or have a local sailmaker make it for him. Even when these three items are bought new commercially then the total costs aren't expect to pass 3000 Euro's overall. (see the excel sheet).

I feel that Blade 12 by Phill will be very much along the same lines as the F12's in this respect.

Wouter

Another problem with the windsurfing rig is that they take to long to rig in my opinion, so I am keen to see the details of the other solutions. That said most holiday resorts leave them rigged up throughout the season so if your club has space then that would make them the quickest rigging option.

Gareth

Wouter, I thought it was for kids. What you are talking about sounds like a full on racing scalled down F16. I doubt if I will get off my F16 to race an F12. But I would throw my kids out on one and chase them around on my boat. I'm not interested in owning yet another class of racing boat, I have enough trouble getting to a few F16 regattas, but I would be interested in a kid's boat that doesn't cost what a new Wave costs, over $5,000 US, when a used H16 is $1,000. I've already got a windsurfer mast/sail sitting in my garage, unused, so I could save quite a bit there, if I could find a way to rig it to the Blade 12.

And Grob, could you please explain that Avatar picture you have on that cat? Looks like two windsurfer rigs to me, how do you keep them upright? Thanks.

Would you add permanent beach wheels that double as fenders, bumpers and back rests when lifted from the water? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It's just brainstorming, but I'd like to know your opinion.

I'm not a big fan of homebuilding (no quality control, build consistency, standardization, parts, etc), and if only 1 of them sinks it will be very bad for the reputation of cats.

Personally I wouldn't even have the space to build one, remember that (unfortunately) houses in Europa are considerably smaller than in the US or AUS.

Maybe it would be better to let a commercial builder build a batch of a few dozen at a time to keep prices down?

Good point. As far as I know, homebuilt Optimists have always been class legal and it has never been a problem.

The likely reason is that, like the F12 and Blade 12, good engineering and simple but detailed construction instructions are complemented by mandatory watertight compartments and/or fixed flotation aids.

Sinking is not an option, so a boat that can sink is not class legal.

Thanks for questioning. It is the best way to test if all the details are properly covered. Keep it coming.

What ever gave you that idea ?

I think this has been covered plenty of times even with you personally and otherwise the public statement has been on the F12 website ever since Januari 2007.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

And I though fish has a short memory span. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phill Blade 12 is intended for young kids, which I think refers to as 7-10 year olds. My F12 is intended for solo sailing (that includes small short course racing as well) for 12+ year olds. Doublehanded if they start younger. On the other side of the spectrum are adult women and very light adult males.

It is not a scaled down F16 as it only has a single unstayed mainsail, no daggerboards or even a mainsheet tackle system like the F16's.

With respect to fitting a windsurfer rig to the F12 or Blade 12 this is how you do it :




Basically you keep the bottom section of the alu mast tubing and fit the front of the windsurfer boom to its top. The windsurfer mast foot is then fitted to a plate that is bolted or welded to the backside of the mainbeam. But I caution you, most windsurfer rigs are very flexible and will pump in unstable wind on a craft like a landyacht or F12. I've found this out by test sailing several mast on this vehical :



The mast show actually has a timbed rod with 40 mm diameter tucked up its inside for the first 2 meter to get the lower portion stiff enough to give is a nice behaviour in gusts. Another mast I test had a 2 mm thick wall aluminium tube hammered into the bottom but pumped like crazy still.

Also take a look at Grobs craft to see the same setup used on a sailboat.


Wouter

How about buying the hulls as you would with other gear and finish the craft off yourself ?

These small 12 footers are alot smaller and easier to work on then a F18 or something.

I live in a high rise building and I've been working on my 6 landyachts requlary using the parking lot in front of the building. You'll be surprised how easy it is. The only major undertaking are building the hulls, the rest is pretty simple and can be done everywhere.

I have restitched my F16 jib two times already in my living room (one time by hand even) and my living room is small. A F12 mainsail will not require that much more space or be more difficult.

It is not envisioned that homebuilding will produce most of the boats, it is just an important way of starting the class after which (hopefully) a small commercial builder can be interested when the concept has been proven.

Wouter

Unsinkable.

I hope I don't bore anybody with my comments but this is the unsinkable setup that I was considering.

A bag is made from fine mazed netting (screen door netting) that sits more or less in the hull between the two bulkheads supporting the beams. This netting is filled with small balls of foam packing material that the industry uses. I think we all know this stuff. The netting is there to prevent the balls from escaping through any large crack in the hulls.

As this foam is in small ball format it can always be taken out through the inspect port and be replace by new balls when it ages or has soaked up to much water of time.

This granulate can even be made yourself by breaking up styrofoam. Typically common variaty styrofoam weights 10kg/cubic meter. I checked that a while ago. This means that even if the complete hull is filled (about 300 liter) that the stuff will only weight 3kg in total. Of course 150 kg floatation will be quite enough (1.5 kg per hull).

Wouter

I like that idea. Having the hulls already completed will open up the class to kit builders that would not tackle composite construction.

And lets not overlook the fact that a 12 foot hull (basically 0.35x0.45x3.75 mtr by 17.5 kg) is very easy and cheap to transport, both nationally and internationally. Especially with a mast that collapses to less then 3.75 mtr length as show in this thread :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthre...ge=0#Post124554

A home-"assembler" can order 2 hulls (symmetrical) and the mast SECTIONS from a small commercial builder and finish the boat/mast off himself, sourcing the other stuff where he can. In my design the beams are made of the same section as the lower mast section so these can be send with the package as well, preferably with predrilled holes for the bolts. Most building stuff is then sawing, drilling and fitting parts together.

Buying and fitting stuff like the rudder pintles should be withing reach of most persons. Homemaking things like the trampoline is also easily done. Painting the craft, etc.

So this could indeed by a viable option if a small commercial builder is found somewhere. We will have to take care to have the hulls easily and quickly produced to make it economically attractive for such a small builder.

Wouter

Have you looked to the kit car industry to see which makers have been successful and why? I believe Factory Five Racing has built a very successful paradigm in the Cobra kit car market. The kit is intended to use the drivetrain from a donor vehicle (Mustang) which dramatically increased the range of potential builders by simplifying the build process. So your comments on using existing rudder assemblies and such are right on. Actually be able to tell the builders what ones work and how to attach them. Obviously the Hobie line is an excellent source.

I would even suggest contacting FFR and picking there brains on their ideas on what worked and what didn't. Including marketing- which probably be the biggest hurdle.

http://www.factoryfive.com/rdsterhome.html

I'd be happy just to cut the old Hobie 14 hulls off my kid's boat and use everything on a new set of F12 hulls, mast, sail, rudders, tramp, etc. Think of the money you could save by purchasing a beat up 14 (the hulls are usually the thing that's beat) for $300 and using all the good stuff on new hulls. Of course you would need wires to hold the mast up but that should be easy enough to install.

Wouldn't work on my F12. The problem is not adding the "wires" (stays) but the loading they put on the boat as a whole. The bows will need to be reinforced to take the forestay loadings, side stay hardpoints will need to be added, the mainbeam will need to be reinforced to handle the massive mast step load. Boom will far to large so the mainsheet that attaches to the middle of the boom now will need to be increased putting higher loads on the "traveller setup" I have in mind, which probably can't take it. And then you don't want a 11 sq. mtr. mainsail on a 12 foot platform anyway. The F12 is more or less optimal with 7.00 to 8.00 sq.mtr and added 60%-40% sailarea will not make the craft "more controllable".

I think you can use the rudders, tiller and tiller extension of the H14, maybe even cut down the trampoline and use some blocks and other fittings and that is about it.

Forget about the Hobie beams, more trouble then they are worth, bloody curved things with heaps of special fittings. Just buy two straight alu tubes for 150 bucks and get it done right.

Wouter

Wait an minute here, something doesn't add up.
You're saying that it is going to be easier to 'homebuild' one of these for youth sailing than to just learn how to rig a Hobie Wave, Dragoon, whatever? The dad that can't fix his garage door is going to assemble a boat?

International transport will be much easier, but nationally? How does it get easier than throwing it on a trailer.

Here in the US, there are thousands of Hobie 14's just rotting in peoples back 40. You can find them all day for $500- $1000, and sometimes you can get them for free. Why aren't those boats on the water with youth on them? The real problem as I said before is not boat design, it's the support system around the boat.

I love the design, don't get me wrong. To be successful though, it will need a some serious support on the back end.

Does that hurt the ozone layer?...sorry <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> carry on

Actually I think that is precisely part of what Wouter and others have been saying for a long time. I think you may have difficulty building a support system around a bunch of disused 10+ y.o. boats.

And the comparison between the complexity of building a boat and the complexity of rigging a boat misses the issue by a wide margin. The problem is not that people are not capable of rigging a complex boat. The problem is that these people have kids who aren't excited about standing around while someone rigs a boat for them, nor about doing it themselves.

Naw, Hobies were made with recycled bottles and hemp plant stocks back in the early '70's. As you saw, I didn't cover it in my global warming rant. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let's see...we got boat design covered, the racing scene covered, global warming covered, the Olympics, a little politic speak, what's missing?

What do you think about starting a thread on religion here too.
Now that would be some winter time fun! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We don't want to blow our whole arsenal so early into the winter though.

No more hijacking. This thread is about a cool boat for the youth.

Mark,
I don't know about Wouter, but that is a part of what got meworking on this concept.
Also those old 14ft cats cater for older kids. There is nothing that fits just right for the younger ones.
Light, simple, easy to rig and look fast sitting on the beach. This is what is needed.

Regards,
Phill

Got it. You're probably right on for the younger than say 12 market. This forum is great market research for your project!

Doesn't that Hobie Bravo have some kind of a freestanding rig, like Wouter's land yachts? Has anyone even seen one up close or ever sailed a Hobie Bravo? Granted it doesn't look nearly as cool as Phil's Blade 12.

Post deleted by Wouter

That is what I'm aiming at because if we don't get them by 12 some other sport will already have them.
And if they get into the sport once they hit twelve they can start rigging their own boats.
So if the parents/instructors have to rig a bunch of boats it has to be quick and easy.

Regards,
Phill

What about the older than 12 market? I realize that you're trying to get youth involved but how would this boat hold up to a 160lb adult skipper? Reason I ask is I've wanted to build a boat for a while. The projected price is very inviting as well. Besides, pitchpole-ing on a hot summer day is kinda fun.

Yep, plenty of room for disagreement here. We can and should speculate on what will be successful in the market, but answers to this kind of question aren't always cut and dried. Ultimately people just have to build what they think is going to be successful and test it out in the real world. Good luck to all of you!

Phil:

Right on we need something that will make there eyes pop out. something that is just like the current big boy boats. Something that could also generate an A cat champ. Keep up the good work. You are right on.

Doug

There appears to be two projects for 12 footers :


The Blade 12 (Phill, strict OD ? )

For kids : probably under 12 years of age. Sail area smaller then the laser dinghy (same with respect to F12). Not much else is know with regard to specs.



The F12 (multi manufacturer relative open OD class or true formula ; Wouter and others)

For youths and light adults : over 12 years of age ; optimal racing for 40-65 kg crews (90 lbs -145 lbs) = 12-16 year olds and adult women, but should take adults up to 80 kg (175 lbs) well in a recreational sense. Beyond those weights the sail area will be a bit small and it will be doubtful whether you'll fly the hull often; boat will however float well till crew weight up to 250 kg. Sail area is the same as the Laser dinghy : 7.00 sq. mtr. on a 6.000 mtr tall mast. performance with adult will be about the same as the Hobie Wave and it'll be about 15 % faster then the Laser dinghy with same crew. Performance with youth (12-16 years) on it will be close to the standard Hobie 14. Lifting of hull while hiking by 55 kg skipper will be about the same as a 150 kg crew on a F18. This data applies to a F12 that has the following dimensions : 3.75 x 2.00 mtr by 65 kg with 7.00 sq. mtr. sail on 5.30 mtr luff on 6.000 mtr mast (aspect ratio of 4 = tad lower then F18). It appears that Retired Geek, Scarecrow and Wouter are all working on F12's with these general dimensions.


Both projects had the same origins in 2003 but Phill and I eventually disagreed on several aspects, of which this is one and so a split happened. It sounds like the F12 is more up your ally. But I wouldn't be surprised if Phill comes out with a Blade F12 later on that is upgraded for 12+ usage. The chances needed are not too big afterall.

Wouter

Sailing Anarchy

This is what we need to be shooting for in the states for cats! A PROGRAM

We have been told... we need a development program for cat racers.

Well.... the monohulls were told... you need a development program for skiff racers.

AYC is stepping up to the plate. They plan to put their racers into the 29ners.

So... IMO this is Good News! ... We are not that far behind.... fact of the matter is that there is NO 29ner racing in the mid atlantic jr or senior.... Fact of the matter... there is NO 49ner or skiff racing either... but we have LOTS of multihull racing. More importantly, there actually is a junior racing program already on the east coast... (Pat B has spoken about how succesful it is Syracuse area). Bottom line, the race for the hearts and minds starts now...

Lets be clear its not Phil v the rest of the world. My efforts on this project are directed firmly on the under 12 and always have been as I agree with Phil as this is the market that needs addressing.

Gareth

YES!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I refered to the two active projects at this time. I didn't know you have an active project, Gareth.

Wouter

Why do you think I have dropped out? I have everything except the hulls and hope to have them by the end of Feb.

Which two projects do you count as active? I know of Phil and RG, whats happened to yours?

Gareth

It's a beautiful boat Phil.

I think the mast step system and the way it distributes the load is a good. The loads on the base of an unstayed mast on a cat are pretty big. I will send you a PM.

There is talk of a youth program at GYC in the coming year. When will plans be ready?

Grob,

Well, the last I heared about your own project was this spring I believe. I'd assumed the project had stalled a nothing new was presented to the world since then. Even back then the project wasn't very far advanced, I can only remember 2 CAD drawings of it, no specs or detailed components.




Unbelievable, don't you guys read anything ?

I'm currently the only one to have produced a design will full detailed listing of the weights and costs of each component. The specs of my design have been fixed and I'm currently the only one with a fully worked out mast design. I'm also the only one who has tested several components for the F12 in real life. Granted, most of it was on a landyacht but mast loadings are mast loadings whether the mast is stepped on a sail boat or landyacht. Add to that things like detailed performance comparisons to the Laser dinghy and I think I got a pretty decent lead on all of the others.

I'm very thankful for your contributions to the F12 project, but you of all people should know what happened to my design, it continued when all others discontinued it. I got the private e-mails to you to proof it.

Wouter

wouter, you're not hijacking someone else's thread are you?

we all occasionally do it but try not to take it over and then poison it

You are right.

I'll shut up now.

Wouter

Since there's agreement that a cat under 12 ft is not viable at all, a compromise is possible with a single platform and two sail plans:

a) School - kids under 12, single handed.

b) Standard - kids over 12, singlehanded and kids under 12, doublehanded.

An oversized sail plan for adults is also possible. It could require structural reinforcements adding some weight and longevity, which is probably an acceptable compromise as well.

I believe this is already compatible with the F12 project. What about the Blade 12? Can it be done?

"It appeared as though the tiller arms were longer, and the tiller crossbar simply was in front of the traveler tack with the tiller extension attached."
That's how the SolCat 18 is set up.
I like the way it works except it has to miss the rear stays, the crew, controll lines and hiking straps. I got used to it pretty quick.
It looks like a lot of these challenges would be irrelevent on this configuration.