Kids Cats - Parents input requested.

Folks,
Since posting some renderings of the computer model of a design I'm working on in a thread called
"This one is for the Kids".I've had various comments and suggestions.

While this is still being developed it would be handy to get some input from parents on a couple of
possibilities regarding the configuration of a Cat for kids under the age of 12.

There are 3 possible configurations being considered and the input I'd like is related to these configurations
when considering the corresponding costs of each.

1) Spade rudders and Skegs


2) Deep Rudders and Skegs =1) + $700 to $1000 (estimated additional production cost)


3) Deep rudders and Centre Boards = 2) + $1000 (estimated additional production cost)


Points to note:-
I will test all configurations to quantify performance differences.
Home builders would not incurr cost as high as these but will pay in the form of building time.

Interested in Comments.

Phil:

I vote for number 3 as a grand parent who trained my 14 yr. old grand daughter on my H-17, since she was 6 or 7, wish I would of had this then. Will consider this if 8 yr. old twins come to Fla. It should give the kids the feel almost of an A cat and get them ready for the newer boats with boards when they are big enough to move on (like your Blade F-16). GREAT design, keep up the good work.

Just my 2 cents from 27 years out there.

Doug

John Williams had a timely post about dagger boards today.

I think you are asking way to much from the under 12 crowd to operate boards and to much from the run of the mill home builder to build a hull with a well.
The rudder lock down needs to work very easy and not require much strength.

Phil: The designs are great. I continue to wonder in the microwave world of the USA how many people will take on such a project.

My vote would be # 2

Pat,

The Opti is still the biggest kids training boat out there and they have no issue with having board as does every other mono-hull typically used to move up from there.

That being said I agree it is more work and or cost and of questionable performance gain for kids at the level this is being designed for.

High aspect rudders however do have a considerably different feel and I feel would be worth having.

My preference fo my kids boat would be #2 as well.

Matt

I don't like the looks of the spade rudders and skegs, but I like the rationale behind them. As long as manouverability is maintained I think they are vey practical. I have observed beginning optimist sailors struggle to get their foils in place after launching when they launch off a ramp. Same for coming back to the ramp. Not having to worry about the foils when launching or coming back is great. Same for sailing in shallow waters, just no worries about damaging foils. The skegs would protect the spade rudders, so with metal lists on the skegs the boat can be dragged over gravel or even concrete with the ruddes in place. Makes rigging, storage and retrieving/launching easier and faster. Not having daggerboards is a good safety measure if the boat suddenly stops with the boards up. Those trailing edges are pretty sharp if you hit them at speed. To boot the spade rudders are the cheapest as well, should be an easy solution in my opinion. I sure hope our youngest will be interested in a couple of years!

keeping in mind that I don't have kids, I do like version #1 if handling isn't compromised with the stubby rudders. Can you imagine it on the trailer? You can completely leave the rudders in place AND you lose all the complication with a rudder up and down system.

Phil,

Preferably the boat should be simpler to rig than an Optimist or Laser.

Would it be possible to fix one daggerboard cassete in the central truss?

From the 3 available options, my vote goes to #2 (but the spade rudders should be dagger-rudders like those of the 29er).

Phill,

I have several kids, so I can speak with some experience here on what I'd like. The design looks absolutely stunning. In fact, I'll take two asap. As a parent, here's what I'd like to see:

--boat weight about 150lbs so a 12 year old could move it around on beach wheels
--high aspect rudders but skeg keel (spade rudders spin out too easily when flying a hull)
--car toppable
--minimize fittings with loosable parts (eg shackle pins)
--if there will not be a trapeze, an unstayed rig would be great too; put the mast in the hole and go.

The feel of the helm with deep rudders is very important. The added performance/cost of the daggers isn't justified at this level.

#2.

#2 would be my preference, for the reasons already discussed above.

It's looking sweet.

#2 is tried and true.

HMMMM looks very familiar though.

Where have I seen a similar boat...

Deep rudder, no shrouds, skeg. All it needs is to be a little narrower and have a roller furling main sail and it would look very similar to:



That sailor is definitely under 12 too.

As someone mentioned before, if the rudders were VERY easy to lock down, I like version 2. I have kids and the centerboard, while great for performance and handling, is too much for a younger sailor (hell, it's too much for many older sailors) and would eventually lead to a grounding and damage. The centerboard in an opti is easier because the boat is slower and there is only one. I think what makes a boat fun for kids - particularly those who are beginner to intermediate in skill - is forgiving handling. If it easily gets trapped irons or is quickly overpowered, I think many kids will be frustrated or scared away. That's the beauty of the Opti, or Hobie Wave, or Laser Radial.

I think design number 2 is right on the money. The skegs are the way to go, provided that they are durable.

What kind of surface area are we looking at on the sail?

Having started off at that age with a sunfish, I think rigging more like a sunfish would make it more easier for a 10-12 year old.

Perhaps something with "reef points" on the sail? Then parents would have the option of powering the boat down for smaller kids.

Phil:

Seems be #2 is getting the vote. I have skeg keels on the Mystere 4.3 and they work GREAT. I can point good and have no problem catching most of the boats till they put there chute up. Remember one time catching a Hobie 16 that was WAY ahead of me and passing him.

Doug

Jake:

Spade rudders will be to short. THINK about what happens when of your rudders kicks up while sailing now? EVEN on my little 4.3, which at 240 lbs is 160 lbs or so lighter than your I-20, I get weather helm like hell with it up, even though some is still in the water. PLUS vibration and wind flapping from trailer speed would beat them to death. I am constantly advising newbie to take there damm rudders off and put them in box or car. Friend has his run into with rudders on and wiped them out.

Just my 2 cents,

Doug

Phill, as I said before, if your intention is to put out plans for home builders, why not simply offer the three options? This would support a developing level of competition amongst builders and sailors which might make the whole catamaran learning process more demonstrative, encompassing, extensive and complete, thus better preparing them for their future in catamaran sailing/racing.

The Sabot has a daggerboard and a blade rudder.

I also like the center fin case for a single fin which could be a fourth option, covering all the bases.

Berny

I think the appearance of a center fin on a cat is atrocious. Would much rather have the skegs.

I vote for #5 lets use what we have without creating yet another sailboat for kids. There is the Opti, Open Bic, 29er, Wave, Bravo, Mystere 4.3, SL 16 (for bigger kids), H16, and on and on and on. Sorry guys but most parents are not going to buy this boat (I am sure there are a few parents on this forum and I mean a few that will buy it). Hay I was on the water last summer on my H16 and passed one of those Mystere 4.3, I thought that was going to be your big youth boat. Dart also came out with a great boat for kids, Hobie has the Hobie Dragoon, and there are more out there. You guys keep proliferating the market with more and more boats and you wonder why no certain class can establish it’s self. How about everyone that bought a Mystere 4.3’, Bravo,s Wave’s, Dargoons, Darts, and so on are you going to sell your boats and buy yet another new design? I can’t wait until next year to see what other new boat comes out for youth so I can yet again sell what I have and buy that boat, NOT! So I am a little confused, now why do we need yet another kid/youth boat? Sorry guys but you all seem to be a bit out of tough with current state of affair in the sailing world, and really really out of touch with reality, and in particular with what kids want. Oh I sure hope this boat of yours is going to be durable so when they run into a dock it will withstand the impact like a Hobie Wave.

I showed my kids your boat design and they said it looks cool but my twin sons said they will stick with the Open Bic, my daughter said no thanks she will stick with the Wave so she can take all your friends out. My sons love to do tacking wars and flip over and over and over. My daughter as she indicated loves to take as many friends out on the Wave as possible. Even though my kids love to race the social and fun factor of the boat is far more important than if it looks cool and is a little faster than another boat.

We just came back from a week long trip on Hobie Islands and now my kids all want Islands. Pedaled, paddled, and sailed there butts off and had the time of there life.

Still good luck with this project,

Already been discussed nut.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat...art=23&vc=1

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;amp;page=0&fpart=7&vc=1

My vote goes for the N°3.

In Switzerland we have very little winds and a cat without boards may not get well accepted. IMO, in lower winds the cat without boards will not go good enough against the wind.

All monohull dinghys have boards, so it can't be of a big problem. It helps the kiddies to right there cats too. Otherwise maybe a pivoting centerboards might be a solution too.


All the best and very cool looking design!

Same here, No3. It is so simple to arrange the boards to have a single line pull up system for both boards.

I think its reasonable to assume that the kids won't be shown the boat on the beach and then saying all the best, this all comes down to probably the most important aspect of all of this, our help (adults/parents) I would dare say that the kids would be launched with us up to our...guts and the same when they come back in, initially anyway.

Since having kids, I never under-estimate what they're capable of....

Regards

Matt

What is the attraction for daggerboards really? Will having deep daggers and rudders sell more boats to the parents (like myself)? Will the kids use the boat more and enjoy it more in that configuration? Those were the questions I asked myself.
It is not a question of underestimating what the kids can do, but what brings most kids on the water, repeatedly (I have trained and coached kids, youth and adults in other sports. Kids learn and master skills amazingly fast compared to adults).

Personally I would want deep foils on a boat I was going to sail, but I am not going to sail that boat very much.

I wonder what non-sailing parents would answer to Phills question, and what would they answer after reading a short pro/con summary on the different configurations? Perhaps we should make a small print and do a private survey at work?

The question I have is - Are C/Bs worth, to the parents, an extra $1000 at least for their kids to have C/Bs over skegs.
This could increase the cost of the boat by nearly %20.
Is it worth this much?
If I were sailing the boat I'd want option 3 but the boat is not designed for my use so that is not relavent.How would the parents see this given they either find the extra time in building the craft or the extra money to buy such a craft.
That is the real question. How does it balance out when the cost is taken into account?
I appreciate all input and look forward to gaining a better understanding of how people see things.

Thanks,
Phill

Phill,

As father of 2 little kids i do see them running around like little monkey's and it looks they are able to damage things where you never would thought about so my comment would be keep it as simple as possible with the less damage possibilty items on the boat. Even the adult people do have a problem to keep there daggerboards/rudder boards in perfect condition. The change of damage with this items is pretty big, so i would go for no daggerboards ( extra costs when damage ) and the simple as possible rudder system ( rope system ) and the possibilty to put them vertical up when on the beach , you know kids are just trying to sail the boat backwards on the beach up to the cantine to have a sodapop. If the rudders are horizontal behind the boats the change of damage is increasing a lot.
The mainsheet blocks also to be as simple as possible and open structured, you know also that the kids will drop it in the sand and don't have any idea what it does with the ball bearing. They only will say it is not running anymore and the parents have to try to fix it, this is also with the mast assembly, if it is going to be a 2 piece mast be aware that there will be sand between it and that kids just roll the sail up around the mast and put it in there sailbox, if the parents are not there to help them then they will not clean it with freshwater.
With other words it has to be monkey proof and with the lowest possible aftersales costs.

Regards,
Hans

I am a father to 4 children. #2 gets my primary vote. I agree with Hans' statements referring to Monkeys. I feel that the D/B's add a degree of complication and safety issues that I would rather not have to worry about while my child is sailing.

Previously someone mentioned pivoting boards ala tornado or H-21 SE. Having owned a H21 SE, I found the kick up D/B's easy to use and worry free in shallow water.

Phill,

No! The potential of c/b case leakage, especially if the boat may be "accidentally" grounded a few times, is not worth the risk. Potential maintenance issues are bad "Dad...when are you going to fair MY boards?" "Yes, we like the boat except it leaks"

To a new sailing family (and I believe this boat can attract total newbies) one (well...two) less item/s makes it that much more marketable.
Keep it simple. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I found it pretty entlightning when I sailed and raced my F16 against a club member both when he had a Prindle 16 and a Blade F16. On the F16's we are now pretty evenly matched (him having had a season on the boat). When he was sailing his Prindle 16 he was always very close behind. If you made one or two mistakes then he would be along side you.

Yes a boardless cat will point a little lower then a boarded cat (except in very light winds where board don't do much at all, Andreas) but the difference in performance was surprisingly small. And we have to factor in that the Prindle 16 (deep V-ed hull) was both heavier and undercanvassed relative to the F16.

I now have some additional information about the sideways slip angle of both setup and the difference is only 2-3 degrees when going upwind and no difference on all other courses.

So my point here is why have daggerboards over skegs or deep V hull when the difference in performance is too small to really matter to the target group of kids/youths and their parents (who are not hardcore racing freaks). I mean what is 2min difference after a full hour of racing anyway ? A huge difference for Olympic sailors but all but negligliable for youths and their parents.

That leaves us the ease of tacking, but really seriously consider this a mute point as well for the following reasons. When you make a boat shorter it becomes dispropotionally easier to tack. This is easily proven by what many will call "useless mathematics". But if that doesn't interest you then do this experiment yourself. Get a long timber planck, hold it in water as a hull and try to turn it. Now cut the planck in halve and do it again. Notice how large the difference in resistance to turning is ! The difference is a factor of 4. And there are other reinforcing principles at work that make this ratio larger still.

Without going deeper into (mathematical and modelling) details I give you the final conclusion. By going to a 12 foot hull length and 65 kg platform weight with a kid as crew the resistance to turning the boat with respect to say an F18 is only 1/7th of the force related to the BOARDED F18's.

Of course the rudder area on the 12 foot will be smaller as well as will be the leverage it has, but even if we scale those as well then the difference factor is still at least a 1/2th.

How much more difficult will a deep V hull or hulls with skegs turn with respect to a round bottomed hull with daggerboards, a factor of 2 or maybe a factor of 3 (these are huge factors by the way). So if we simply entlarge the rudder of the 12 foot a little bit then we are garanteed to achieve parity in easy of tacking and turning with respect to the boarded F18 even when using skegs or deep V-ed hulls !

Now I can also make energetic comparisons showing that the Deep V or Skegged 12 foot hulls will not decellerated more then the F18 during a tack because of the above principles.

So ny final point is, how much more easily do we want the 12 foot to tack and turn, If a F18 feel is good enough then why justify the daggerboards ?

So my vote would go to the skegs or deep V-ed hull and normal kick-up rudders. And loose the large taper at the end of the rudder board. Just a small taper there will be enough.

Wouter

Phill, I have a question about your sailplan. Not a criticism, just a boat design question.

If you look at the two current production boats shown within this thread, the Opti and Hobie Bravo, you see that both use a "catboat" arrangement where the mast is far forward on the hull (Hobie Wave as well). Your traditional catamaran arrangement places the mast at midships offering a tiny tramp (~4-5 feet long) with the skipper far astern of a skeg boat's center of floatation. Also, your low boom is kind of a deck-sweeper for a training boat. There must be some other issues with boat handling in the catboat rig that made Hobie choose the Opti catboat plan. What are the advantages of a long-footed main as in the Opti vs the higher aspect Phill-plan?

Its been about 7 years since the last time I taught a jr. sailing course but what I do remember is the kids would inevitably venture over to the shoal areas (despite my warnings) in their optis and run aground hard. They would be ok, but on a catamaran at easily 3X or 4X the speed I doubt they would want to go back out.

Skegs work. I agree with Wouter on this point. If you have not sailed a skeg boat you just cannot comment here. And I do NOT mean an assymetric hull like the H16 or Prindle 16/18. A skeg boat is like a Nacra 5.0 or Dart 18. Skegs ends about 2 feet from the transom so the resistance to turning is far less than with the full hull length H16. Skeg boats point well if sailed correctly, tack quickly, and are a physically strong hull design. One or two small sailing errors on a board boat and a skeg boat will run you down. Kids don't need boards. Parents don't need the expense.

Hi Phill,
Personally I would go 3..

The plate will help kids right the boat.. Its easier to haul ones little body across a plank just above water line than a slippery hull.
Saying this I would see a reasonably stubby plate design not a ultra long wing. Then a piece of glassed shaped piece of ply would be sufficient.
Kick up rudders are fine but again reasonably stubby rather that long thin foils.. The windrush cats do reasonably well with their spades so I'm not really concerned one way or another. I would also look at parallel sided plates and rudders.. This would be easier for home builders to make.

If your thinking OD.. I would suggest looking at a cloth strop or device to keep the main from looping and catching on a wee laddie or lassies throat. The main pictured while great for the experienced skiffy isn't one for a kid who lets the main loose and thus slack when gybing!!

Just my thoughts.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

All agreed.

But some things that sound complicated may actually be simpler and better choices than expected.

Before dismissing the idea, I would like to list the features of a single centreboard pivoting from the central truss:

- It needs no case, only lateral support (easy to build, access and maintain)
- It is external to the hulls and independent from them (no leaks, safer, cheaper)
- It helps right the boat (safe, fast and efficient righting pole style recovery)
- It doesn't interfere with the boom or take deck space (easy to gybe, difficult to bruise inexperienced legs).
- It is invisible both down and up (therefore not ugly).
- It is cheaper and easier to build than a board in each hull (but Phill is the one who can confirm this).


Another possible configuration change would be to replace the twin rudders with a single, deeper, daggerboard style rudder, also placed in the central frame.

Depending on project specifications, this could further reduce the price and complexity, while still yielding a fast boat compared to #2. The central structure would concentrate about everything needed to sail the boat: rudder, centreboard and mast. It would look a lot like an Optimist or Laser with two hulls. I guess this could help parents feel comfortable with the idea of a cat trainer.

What do you think?

no Waves here.. no M4.3s..

On the mono sides there are Pelicans, optis, mudlarks, JDs, Manlys, Flying Ants, Mirrors..

So where does that put cat sailing?
Ok we can side with Hobie.. If Hobie will allow me to build my own boat for my son and allow me to get someone to make my sails and parts as required.. Building plans are found where and how much?



<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LuiZ:

How would a single rudder work on a cat? It would have to be 6 feet long to stay in when you fly a hull! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Doug

Not necessarily, with a central rudder when you fly a hull going upwind as the rudder comes out of the water the boat would luff up and so it could be a "safety feature" preventing you flying a hull too high.

Gareth

I like the single rudder and maybe single board idea, It may not be the right solution but it is something I would like to try.

It is much simpler, is familiar to a mono sailor and is cheaper.

Gareth

Simple to use yes as there is only 1
Cheaper from a foil aspect also because there is only 1 of each as well.

Cheaper as a whole -No - as you have to create mounting and deployment fixtures on the cross bars which before were simply a plain round tube. This complicates the platform considerably both for use and the build.

no privately owned Waves or any M4.3s in Europe either.

I'm was told by a Hobie employee that they sell the wave here, but we haven't seen any boats on the water yet. I think the lionshare of the wave sales are to resorts.

The Wave had been around since when 1998 ? Up till now it hasn't caught on overhere as far as I can tell.

Wouter

How 'bout barge boards...

Would a system similar to the Tornado boards be a solution? I mean if the boards are "up" they remain below the hulls as skegs (they wouldn't go entirely inside the hulls) and if they are "down" they would be real daggerboards? Although this changes the center of effort, the mast position could be varied if necessary.

Centerboards like the what the Tornado have would increase performance a bit, but why add boards when skegs work well enough? Do they add fun for the kids or make the boat an easier sell to the parents? Price would certainly increase.

Well put.

And btw, Flying Ants are very cool - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E52RGCBiqaE

As a M4.3 owner, if truely a boat for 10-12 yr olds, I would want to see significantly lighter, less parts and something that a kid or two can set up by themselves. Forget about performance in favor of easier setup/tear down by the kids.

So, I vote for number 2 (deep rudder, skeg hull). Definitely would not want to see boards. Would love an un-stayed rig. A two piece mast for trailering. Like the idea of the tiller in front of the mainsheet. If there is some way to make the hulls quick-disconnect from the beams, it would be a plus for storage, car top and trailer options.

Would I buy one? Already have the M4.3 and a fleet in Ohio so probably not. But you really can't get a new M4.3 so for new entry it would be nice to have something to direct them to.

P.S. Parent of 4, 11 and 15 yr old.

Option # 2 would seem to give the best balance of performance Vs complexity and cost.
No kid likes to look like a fool in front of their friends because they don’t catch on quickly. The more complicated the entry level cat is, the more chance of alienating a large portion of the group who come from a non sailing background, and who’s parents are non sailors.

My experience with teaching kids to sail is limited to my son's high school sailing team (20 +- team members pretty equal mix of boys and girls). We practiced at, and had a professional sailing coach from US sailing (Jensen Beach Fl). The boats sailed were 420’s; at one point I believe we had something like 9 boats on the water at once. Working closely with the coach, I observed most liked sailing but only a very few liked "racing". Most did not want to helm the boat but would rather crew. Some would have rather sailed by themselves on a Laser if forced to "race" so they didn't have to contend with critical crew mates when they didn't win. Granted these were older kids, 14-17 years old. The top kid on the team came from optimists…the next two closest competitors had sailed sailboards.

What made the Team inviting is:

1) Professional (paid) Coach with notable credentials who directed all of our practices, on and off the water, and who had answers to all related sailing questions.

2) There was time for free sailing before the practices, but once the practices started it was very well structured and controlled. While we wanted everyone to have fun (and they did) the practice sessions were all about learning to sail, disruptive behavior was not tolerated. Parent Volunteers keep the peace so the coach could coach instead of being a babysitter, or disciplinarian.

3) A US Sailing facility that provided the Boats/Sails on a sandy beach on the inter coastal waterway with good conditions for learning at a reasonable monthly fee. US sailing provided Coach boat and one safety boat, marks and water edge storage. They even had a small barge to tow out so the kids would not have to set on the beach when crews were changed out at multi school races.

4) Very involved Parents, four fathers, including myself, were there every practice and ran the coach boat and safety power boat, often providing one other safety power boat so the coach could coach. He was able to direct the buoy set, and keep tabs on every sailor through us. We helped the kids rig the boats and made sure all safety proto-call was followed.

5) We had fundraisers at a local Yacht club, and on one occasion it yielded over $2,000 profit for a single Spaghetti Dinner that the kids held and the parents organized and participated in.

6) To expand the fleet several Fathers searched and found three used boats that they bought for the team and working on weekends refurbishing , patching hulls and re-rigging…with the kids helping and learning how to take care of, and repair their own boats.

7) The kids had a blast and so did the fathers that participated. It was not about the boats (although super easy tacking was their favorite thing they liked about them) it was about community.

The Blade 12 looks amazing and is sure to excite kids who “want to do what dad does”… But it will be community that makes or breaks all these awesome looking mini-cats.

Best Regards,
Bob

Phil nice design. I've looked at the 3 versions each day and number 2 really appeals to me. Can you quantify the difference in performance with the skegs? Can the rudder lockdown be something like the A class pop out rods except extend all the way to lock in near the tiller crossbar? that would mean the kids don't have to go so far back. You've really designed a boat that can be built to suit each location and if you dont need it to fit between another cat, I presume your plans could include a bit more width.
In defense of new boats for kids this discussion has already helped the move from dinghys to cats and in our club Hobies are seen as snobby boats because we cant sail in their regattas. I was looking at a Hobie Tiger and was actively discouraged so I purchased the A class, if I tried to introduce a small hobie the price would be prohibitive and the reception distinctively cool.
regards

You may be right. The central truss could become almost as complex as a third hull, especially if we see the boat as a trimaran with raised mainhull. The price of the central truss/hull could offset the savings - unless a simple and clever design is feasible. Like Gareth, I would like to know if this is the case (or not).

Why do you say the central hull complicates the use of the boat?

yes they are.. Another great Spenser design.. Smart man Mr Spenser..

The JD is a similar style boat and lead in boat for I14s..
movement for kids would be mudlarks (6 foot single handed cat rig) 6-10? yr old the JDs to 16 then cherubs (12 foot big bro of Flying Ants) then Javelins or I14s

others go Pelicans/Manlys Flying Ants then up.. Cherubs/29ers/420

This is probably the best definition of the desired features for an entry cat!

The boat is for kids and must "catch" their spirit, but the parents are the ones who have to pay, transport, fix, rig and de-rig it - so we'd better listen to them.

In your opinon, can kids handle the rigging and de-rigging process with the proposed configuration (#2)? Do you have a simple method that could be used to train kids to raise the mast/sail by themselves?

Luiz,
There is a very simple hinge system used to raise and lower the mast.
It retracts inside the mast so it is not shown in the renderings.
There will also be a thick rope with knots in it between part way up the luff of the sail and ties around the striker post when up. It has the dual purpose of helping to raise and lower the mast and also help get back on the boat after it is righted.
You work your way up the knots in the rope as you step into the dolphin striker and then up onto the boat.
The idea is to at least keep the rudder stocks and tiller gear on the boat. The rudder blades can go into the stocks with a bolt with winged end . A rope with shocked chord in series would allow the rudders to go down and be kept down with a cam cleat on the tiller arm but if they hit the ground they will come up as the heavy shock cord stretches.
Alternatively a rod system could be used. But I would include a loop fixed above the tiller arm to retain the rod when not engaged in either up or down position.
Having been through the ordeal of having to rig 3 cats every time I wanted to sail led me to come up with very few parts and systems but what is there would be reasonabley easy for a child to assemble.

If need be the boat is very easy to de beam. It may be possible to socket the beams into the hulls and if I went this way, the method used would take a good 2 minutes to take apart. These things will be looked at more closely during prototyping.

The comments being made are very useful in helping me learn how people see things and this will help me as I move forward with the design.

I'd like to thank those who have commented so far.

Regards,
Phill

Folks,
Responses follow to some of the posts.

Luiz- My original drawings had a central C/B and central rudder. Both were discarded in the interest of simplicity.
It is the mounting of the c/b and rudder that makes them a more complex sollution.

Eric- In response to your specified requirements:-
the boat should be under 150lbs,
car topable and easy breakdown to make car topping even easier.
almost no fittings and with what is there staying on the boat not much could be lost.

TRi x Troll- The prototype will have 60sq ft of sail. Depending on peformance relative to the intended use it may be increased.

Berny- 3 options would be on the cards for a home builder.

Alutz- If the performance is ok would skegs be accepted?

Hans- monkey proof- good point.

Stewart- agreed the main sheet needs to be inside something so it doesn't catch little necks..

Claus- I also considered the Tornado type c/bs- but as i have built a Cobra which uses them I decided against them
as they involved more work and are also heavier not to mention increased production cost.

The way I count the votes:-
Option 1 and 3 have 4 votes each ,
Option 2 has 14 votes and is a clear winner.

A good thing about option 2 is that it would be easy to change the rudders and you have option 1
or via/versa. The spade rudders a very cheap and dead easy to make.

I would like to thank all the parents that commented.
Your feedback is valuable in helping establish what is both desired and required.

Also, external pivoting boards are easy to install in the boarless option, if needed.

It will be a cat with skeg and deep rudder, then. Make sure no monkey is hurt by the central reinforcement tube when tacking an jibing.