New(er) sails for old Tornado

Have a line on an older T for sale in our area. I don't recall what year (70's or 80's I think) but it has a tilt trailer, the price is right and we have a great mast up storage lot available where she could spend her years introducing folks to catamarans. Don't think we'd consider traveling to race it, purely a rec boat.

Seem to recall discussion that used T square tops are out there and available? Maybe used on the Mystere 6.0? Should I post on the T site?

Trying to find out what total cost to get her in usable, and fastest, condition. Obviously the pin head main will work but we'd like to toy with a square top.

Also the jib is toast, current owner says P19 jib will work.

Comments or leads appreciated

If you have the old tapered mast you may need to consider a newer mast to suit the square top sail. I'm far from an expert but have attatched the photo of the only Tornado I've ever owned. Wont describe what happened. If you were closer I'd have a stack of bits for you
regards

It's a classic.. Looks like it ripped apart at the shroud fitting? Hope you either fill in with the story here, or make a new thread, even if you said you would not.

As long as you are not going to compete with the boat, any alu-mast squaretop will do, but beware of the loads. If you want max. performance, you need the luff curve adapted to your masts bending properties. The pros went with carbon masts during 2004/2005 so good used squareheads for alu masts are becoming more rare. Check on tornado.org and on the yahoo Tornado group. Good classic jibs are even more rare than alu squareheads. I would consider upgrading to the selftacking jib. Putting the new style working sails on the boat do wonders for it's handling, especially tacking. I would consider the boats structural integrity before putting a spi on it. If you can track down the brand, post a question on the TornadoCat yahoo group and there are good odds for quality answers.

Ohhhh....you can't just drop that bombshell and not explain it. Looks like a trailering accident to me.

My money is on a big storm cartwheel because it was not tied down well enough.

it does remind me of the guy with a Hobie 18 that though he could tow it home with the mast still up! He hitched it up behind his Dodge Ram and went gunning off towards the overhead lines across the road. The result was both bows snapped off at the front beam [try doing that to a TheMightyHobie18] and no telephones in the neighbourhood for a while!

Paul

Dunedin Causeway folks have done a lot of used Tornado sails on Mysteres as well as GCats . We are blessed with Robbie Daniel in town and he often has used T sails, both old pinheads and newer squaretops. The Mystere mast is the same as the old Sailcraft Tornado extrusion and the Tornado sails work great on our boats. Here is a M6.0 and a M5.5. Note the 5.5 had the head recut to shorten about 12 inches. Write to Jill Nickerson for sail info at funinthesun(at)juno.com

That's it! Thanks David

Rolf, thanks for the comments regarding tacking/handling, but we're looking for use as purely a reaching machine.

Just note that there is a distinct difference between sails made for carbon masts and those made for alu masts.

We were worried about that when we moved the Tornado squaretops to the aluminum Mystere masts. Whatever the "distinct difference" is, they seem to work great and the price is right, about $700 for a slightly used Ogletree Glaser (Italian) main. Poverty (and a sailing obsession) is the mother of invention.

That's what I'm always thinking and Rolf had me worried <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

This sail and craft also works very well for it's application.




Just trying to give good advice based on what I know from spending time and building sails in the Tornado class. US$700 is a lot better than the US$1800 a new one costs and if it works well, perfect..
If you want to check out what I am talking about, try laying a mainsail cut for an alu mast over one cut for a carbon mast. There should be less luff curve in the one for the carbon mast. When you hoist a sail with not enough luff curve, the sail becomes flatter than optimum.
A 70s boat will probably be set up for sideways mast bend instead of pre-bend. You will need to adjust your spreaders and inspect the tangs+spreaders for the increased loads.

Does anyone know at what point in time aluminum T masts may have changed to a modern, pre-bend, style of diamond spreader set-up? Any distinguishing visible differences? Like said, I not sure even the current owner knows exactly what vintage this boat is.

And now I'm confused by your statements on luff curve. We had an TheMightyHobie18 with the "sideways" bend mast. Honestly I never paid attention to that sail's luff curve. Conversely, the mast prebend and luff curve of the H20 is very prominent. Without dragging out my copy of "Cat sailing for the 90's", doesn't the sideways bend produce draft? Seems like a sail with less luff curve will work on the old school mast. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Since nearly all the similar boats have switched over to the Tornado square top any misfit of the sail/mast combo is duplicated equally on each. Our own kind of Franken-cat one design! As long as we all screw up equally its a good plan. We are blissfully happy in our slow ways.

Remember, no matter how imperfect our rigs look we are still sailing in mid-December...water 71, air 80. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Join us for the Hangover Regatta on January 1st.

Almost any sail will work, the question is how well it will work. For reaching around, you can hoist pretty much anything and have a good time. If you want to go well to windward, it is a different case.
I would go and check out the boat for structural integrity of all parts. If it is OK, buy it and have fun with the sails on it. Then start looking for something better. An ad on Tornado.org and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tornadocat/ gives good odds on tracking down OK sails.

I believe the change occurred around 1988. I've also heard that the older standard Sailcraft masts could handle the loads of prebending.

My 1978 SCOC "D" section mast was converted to pre-bend in the mid 80's and has never experienced any problems. The original IYE "110" masts used on Tornados had a short cord and no raked spreaders. These masts tended to invert downwind and probably would not handle the diamond/downhaul loads of the prebendrig. My recollection is that the prebend rig established its superiority at the 1983 Tornado worlds and was the dominant rig at the LA Olympics in 1984.

David Melcon US 645

Is this an IYE "110" mast?
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/127652-Tornado.JPG

It dont look quite like the IYE mast I have, a 1980 model. Perhaps an earlier model? Our mast have a IYE sign riveted to the front of the mast. Aft beam looks very IYE! Halyard hook is different as is the mastfoot. Spreaders looks like they are set up for pre-bend? We drove with pre-bend on our IYE section for some time and was happy with it.
It is easy to spot a pre-bend setup. Spreaders are raked well aft of the sailtrack.

Prebend was invente before my time in the class, but I also believe it was in place for the 84 games.

How much bend can you acheive with the diamonds attached to the side of the mast and not the front?
I'm guessing not much?

The fore/aft chord on all later masts were close to the class max of 135mm=5.31 inches. The IYE 110 masts had a for/aft chord of ll0mm. To my uncalibrated eye it looks to be a later section that should accept prebend loads without problem. If the spreaders are adjustable raking them back more will induce more prebend with less tension on the diamonds. The prebend needed is dependent on crew weight and luff curve. My current spreader rake is ~32mm=1.25", but when I sailed with my wife we used 50mm=2"

David Melcon

That is the normal position?? You get enough bend in the mast just by angling them a bit back and tensioning the diamond wires.

Ahh! Thanks for your patience gentlemen

Regarding jibs...if you plan to go to modern self-tacking, this typically has a longer luff that passes below the bridle wires and the tack is set on the spinnaker pole. So, be careful then getting a jib unless you plan to rig a spinnaker pole. There are "short luff" jibs available (LandenbergerSails offers it) that presumably stop at the bridle.

Otherwise, stay with the traditional jib and get a sailmaker to cut you a new one from the old trashed one.

Mike.