used A's

Ok I know this is a really loaded/vague question.

What would one expect for an older A cat in decent condition? Something in good shape but maybe not technoligically "competitive" anymore?

I'm assuming you mean a older style Acat that is minimum weight and has a carbon mast?

You can find these from between $3 and $12k, depending on age, and how they've been used.

All glass older boats are less, as they can get soft over time, kevlar and carbon boats hold up better over time, so expect to pay more.

Older Catnip style Acats with aluminum masts can be found for $2-$5k.

I saw a boat that Steve Clark built and sailed in the worlds (not the recent worlds) with a carbon hall mast for $3k in RI, nice boat, carbon daggers, rudders. It was about 5k over weight, but the daggers were solid and you could easily get the weight out of the daggers. This boat was at Sail Newport, dont know what happened to it.

Also, the Lake Hopatcong guys have a bunch of older catnips, some are projects, but you might get them to part with one of those boats. They use these to introduce people into the class.

The other option is to build your own, I spend $11k on my boat, and its a current design.

Check here, lots of newer onew for sale now that the worlds is over. http://www.usaca.info/

Bill

I thought there was one available with our WRSC A class Fleet. CrewDog?

As a reference, I bought a '93 Boyer MKIII with alum mast and beams, Kevlar hulls, 170 lbs, in goood shape for $3K last spring. I'm real happy with it!

dave

I am really interested in buying an older A-cat also. I went as far to post an add on the A-cat website. Something around 2-3K.

If anyone has a line on one tell me!

Let us know if you're successful Karl!

Dave

I think the A's need to start a new division, something like "Vintage A's" or some such. The boat must be 15 years old or older, And something affordable would be nice. By affordable I mean less than $5,000, which is all I can justify paying for two glass (or wood) hulls, an aluminum mast and one sail. The new all carbon boats out there now, at $30,000, are way beyond my reach.

One of the more popular motor sports car racing classes is the "Vintage Class", apply the same concept to A cats.

$2-3k is about what I had in mind. I don't think I could justify spending more than that on a 2nd boat.

A new Vectorworks XJ or Alien sailaway is around $21K. Same for the A3 which is back in production completely under Melvin and Morelli (no more Performance Catamaran involvement). Any boat imported into the US is high right now because of the weak dollar but new Gel Tek's were selling at the Worlds for $25K to $26K, not $30K. The boat is still expensive but keep in mind most are all carbon construction (beams, foils, mast, hulls) or have kevlar hulls. Glass boats are just not being built, too wiggly. Apparently the price is not killing the class because it is still growing in the US.

Bob Hodges
USACA

Thanks for the correction Bob, but $21K, plus trailer, plus box, plus wheels, plus... is still way out of my range for a singlehander. If there were a Vintage A class, for a lot less money, well...maybe.

This just may be my perception but it seems that the A Class is probably the second strongest class in the US despite the large price tag.

Do these boats typically come with sails new? Just curious.

My guess is you will probably get a MK3 for not much more than the older types with the probable advantages of
modern mast
Decks are clear ( this is a big thing )
modern centreboards
modern rudders with kickup
modern curve and design of traveller
looks relatively modern
Rockers on some older models are forward more so have to have extra long tillerbar and hike way forward. ( this may suit you more if you are going out through surf )
Rounded hull making tacks easier and faster.
Should be around weight
I purchased my older A as a second boat and wouldn't hesitate to do it again
regards

What is the basis for your opinion?

Just looking at national and worlds attendance. Didn't the worlds in Florida limited to 200 boats? Nationals seems to have really good turnouts as well. Only the H16 has a similar turn out.



Oops. 98 boats competing. Just found the thread Still a ton of boats in one place.

I have been in the class since 2001 and from my perspective, we've seen steady growth. Different areas seem to have growth spurts at different times and some areas the boats just don't seem to catch on for whatever reason (Florida panhandle a good example).

In terms of positive growth, the Pacific northwest, a resurgence on the west coast, the Annapolis area, and most recently the Tampa Bay area have been shining stars. In terms of regatta attendance, the NAC gets good attendance when it is more centrally located even though the strong growth of attendance for the midwinters and the recent WC seems to blow that theory (the venue in Islamorada is a strong pull).

This year we had 110 paid up members in the US class association. Over 100 sailors took part in the US district qualifying series that was used to start seeding out the allocations for the WC. Times are good, I hope we can keep the momentum going and keep sales up for our excellent builders and suppliers (Hall Spars, Morelli and Melvin, Vectorworks, Guck, Inc)in this country.

Bob Hodges
USACA

A-class is for sure a great boat-- expensive, but so are the 2 handed heavyweights. I just turned 40. I see all my friends who had Nacra6.0s in their late 20s and 30s, have jumped to A-cats:
- They have better jobs and can afford A-cats (even as the price escalates)
- They have less time and want boats that need less setup and not not need more people as crew.
- They love the idea that crew weight and general fitness are no longer key differentiators.

Our fleet is nearly 100% Bim2000s (fiberglass, minimum weight, carbon rig). For my money, carbon mast is a "must have" and unfortunately one of the most expensive and delicate parts of the boat. Other parts such as sails are often cheaper than class (Hobie, Nacra) boats because of their lighter weight and strong competition in the market. Fiberglass hulls are still made by Bimmarree (but not Vectorworks-- the USA producer of the same boats). Even though they have the same shape and weight, few buy them-- carbon boats stay stiffer longer and how can you spend so much money and not get the "cool material" all around (it is like ordering a BMW M5 without the alloy rims)

Bottom line: 1999-2002 Bimm/Vectorworks or Boyer/Flyer with Carbon mast is regularly sailed condition is a great entry level boat. For $1500 more, you could probably get a 2001-2004 similar boat with carbon hulls and still have an affordable entry level boat. Older, wooden or very cheap A-cats may not be such a good deal because their ultra lightweight constructions means they do not hold up well to long term abuse-- high risk you spend too much time and money keeping it on the water. (it is not like rescuing an old Hobie 16)

Finally, despite a wildly fantastic A-class world championship, few people attending/watching were buying boats after/during like previous years so I heard. I suspect the lack of a new dominant design/technology combined with the fact that most A-class boats in the USA are already carbon/carbon and holding up well combined with Euro/$USD sticker shock.... IMHO With continued, increasing class interest, this could start making entry boats expensive as new supply of used boats slow down. I would not wait for better deals if I found a good entry level boat at a fair price.

You are in for a pleasant surprise (I hope!) While I don't own an 'A' yet, I think fitness will be as necessary as it is on the F16. And that's a good thing.

The old Nacra 6.0NA in Worrell-1000 configuration required a heavy hot stick to fight the rudders, 2:1 systems for massive spinnakers, and a mainsheet that regularly required so much tension that exploding bolts on the high end haarken slides push many of us to switch to titanium bolts when sailing in the strong stuff.

On the other hand, my mother could steer and A-class (if I could strap her into the boat without the police arresting me as she screamed). It is lightweight, nimble, and sensive to the lightest pressure. Downwind, when I overheat, my Bim2000 punches into waves and usually slows down-- the Nacra would carry so much momentum that it would dive like scenes in the movie Das Boot. The A-class still likes tension on the mainsheet, but the carbon mast is more responsive so you don't need to be so cruel to the boat.

Don't get me wrong. The A-class is not for the Benetau 42 crowd. You need enough fitness to get on and off the wire quickly (very quickly-- it is simply un-sailable without using a trapese9. And you need even more flexibility since the boat is smaller. You move more like a dancer and less like a rugby player. When I entered regattas out of practice or in bad physical shape on a Nacra 6.0, I would get injured. On an A-class, I usually injure the boat first.

buy and A-cat, you'll will love it.

My Stingray has the same height mast as my A, with heaps more sail area and a lot more feeling of power. What amazes me with the A is I am looking at quad blocks to handle that last couple of inches of sheet tension wheras I don't have that problem with the Stingray. In a bit of a blow with waves on the A, I'm constantly playing the last bit of main sheet and finish the day much more tired.
regards

I would rather move like a rugby player than a dancer any day

Used boats usually come with sails. New ones, usually not,with some exceptions.

My take is that the heavier boats are easier to sail imperfect. The wing mast and low momentum in an A-class means that you simply stop when sailed imperfectly-- that means no relaxation. There are only a few controls on an A-cat, but they must all be set correctly-- when the conditions are shifty or changing, an A-cat is a lot of work. You simply don't get home in an A-cat if you are not actively sailing-- you just stop; while most heavyweight cats can be sailed like beach resort rental boats and eventually get home.

Sounds similar to sailing a HP dingy or skiff? Devoid of the fact when you simply stop the boat capsizes, or am I over dramatizing?

Hey Matt,

Been swimming in the Keys lately? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike Hill

The 2-up sailing world has progressed a little since the Nacra 6.0 designs, my friend. Comparing an A-class to this Nacra 6.0 is like comparing a turn of the millenium lotus Elise to a 60's mustang.

I wouldn't sail a heavy two-up F18 or Tornado like a resort or rental boat. And I most certainly won't call 2-up boats like the Spitfire and F16's heavy.

If anything, it will be most fair to compare a modern A-class (like year bim 2000) to one of these modern 2-up cats rather then the aging Nacra 6.0.

Wouter

Wouter-
For sure, the Nacra 6.0 was a brute of a boat designed for Worrell 1000 survival. The Inter20 was already a bit more civilized despite no major improvement in weight. I have yet to try the new HT class boats, but based on their designs I imagine that they are basically 2-up versions of an A-class boat. I don't know Spitfires at all and I am way too big for an 16ft boat. Tornados seem to be somewhere between a heavyweight F20 (like a Nacra) and an A-class.

Mike,
I still make sure I am fit enough to swim a mile or so if necessary. You never know if someone will not be able to pick you up.... :-) Actually, I broke an A-class mast in a particularly nasty alpine wind on the Adriatic called a Bora/Burija, but otherwise I have discovered that catamarans sail so much faster with the pointy end up....

Matt

BS on that.

Please do not take this as an attempt to persuade anyone from their choice of boat, but generic statements based on impressions or comaparisons to boats developed in the 60's are not necesarily correct.

The tramp on the F16 is larger than on an A, especially when you take into account the lost room from the curved track and the boom is set higher so saying your too big for a 16 but not an A is not true.

The F16 designs with additional sail area and hull volume (especially compared to a Bim2000) are significantly less sensitive to changes in weight. I have raced between 115 and 155 kg with no noticable change in performance.

Keep your eyes open you may be supprised.


Matt
F16
A class

You discovered my ignorance. I know nothing about F16s..... see what happens when you assume....

I've sailed the F16, uni, at 215-220 lbs. for over a year. I don't feel my weight puts me at a disadvantage. MY skill level, well. . . that's another story.

Sailing uni is physically exhausting when the wind comes up. If you expect to sail well you need to be in good shape. Fatigue causes poor decision making, which can put you upside down in a hurry! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

More so than a sloop? Why do you say this Pete? Not taking a jab, I just haven't noticed a difference in physical effort from the my H16 to the FXone is all. Unless you're talking about the spinnaker then, yeah, I agree.

Yup, the spinnaker requires extra effort.

And, the Blade steers much more quickly than a H16. Outhaul and mast rotation also require more attention.

You got time! Drag yourself down here and take one out for a spin!

Yes, you definetely have your hands full with spin single hand. Not to mention boards and down haul as well. But that keeps it interesting doesn't it?

I would like to try an F16 one of these days.

I've already got two winter road trips planned though. One to Wyoming to go snowmobiling at the end of this month, and to Texas for some sailing in February.