How do you say taht is a really dumb idea

In Houston, this is boat show season. It's the time of year that you see novice sailors with their new or new-old boat launching in bad locations and bad weather because they just can't wait any longer.

For example:

It's Feb about 4pm
Wind is 15 with gusts to 25 and there is a front coming in
It's paved parking lot with concrete ramps designed for power boats.
There is no beach, just rocks and seawalls.
Two guys in shorts and life jackets have rigged an old H16 (badly) on the trailer with jib and main up.
The boat is about stern to the wind, so they can back the trailer down the ramp.
The two guys are trying untie the boat from the trailer but it keeps trying to fly.
You figure, if they can get the boat into the water and turned around, they are going right into a bridge or the rocks


I have often wondered if we have an obligation to tell people like this, "This is really not a good idea"

If it's a family with little kids, I at least drive by and ask, "have you done this before" and if they don't argue you can mention it would be better if they went down to the Dike when there are other Cat Sailors around, they might have a fighting chance to get the boat back in one piece.

This time I tried something different. I wandered up with my camera and asked "can I take your picture, I always wanted a picture of a cat flipping onto a car".

They stopped and listened a minute and then there was an act of God, it started to rain, hard, and they started talking about how they were going to take the boat down

I think next time I will just ask "Can I take your picture. I am collecting pictures for a book and I think this belongs in the chapter on things not to do, you know, the chapter on really stupid things I have seen people do"

A few weekends ago we spotted a beach cat (caper cat I think) with its sails down bobbing around in the middle of the bay, about 15 knots blowing and a bit of chop.

We sailed up to them to ask them if they needed a hand but they were playing with the forestay and said they were fine. They weren't fine so we sailed around within sight of them with the occasional sail past to double check they didn't want a hand. Eventually the mast fell so now they were trying to step the mast! No way was it going to happen with the chop that was about.

Eventually a couple of yachts congregated and convinced them to accept a tow back to shore. Lucky, because we blew up our rudder box and were in no state to tow them back upwind. They'd drifted deep into the bay, if they'd gone any further, there wouldn't of been as many yachts around to help (they were in the middle of the channel) and may've ended up on the other side of the bay in the middle of the night.

Unfortunately an experience like that discourages enthusiastic potential sailors and gives sailing a bad reputation. Lots of wind may look like fun, but without some basic skills, sailing is tricky.

If you see n00bs getting or about to get into trouble, stop and help them.

Yes, always try to help. The key word is "try." Carl is right, it's all in how you approach it, but more likely, how willing they are to listen.

I know I did some REALLY bad things when I started sailing Hobies (wound up upside down, overnight, and alone once), but I was young and was completely convinced that I knew what I was doing. Hey, the dealer sold me "everything" I needed...

And that is why I will NEVER, EVER, EVER leave the beach without a radio again, about 15 years later.

And since I started sailing with my wife, and especially since we now have a son, we have a whole additional set of "rules" on whether or not to rig the boat in the morning.

Mike

Things can happen to experienced sailors too. We helped an accomplished big boat sailor rig his H16 that had sat in the lot for like 4 years, he needed a refresher. Things were going well, the mast was up (on the trailer), he was "good to go" so we went for a quick spin on our already rigged boat. Expecting him to be on the water after what seemed forever, we went back to see what was up? He explained that one of his son's friends had accidentaly yanked on the main halyard, sending the business end to the top of the mast, and after much deliberation decided he should be the one to shinny up there and retrieve it! Which is exactly what he did! The thought never crossed his mind to lay down the mast or take the boat off the trailer and flip sideways.

yeah, well, I made my first launch with my 5.2 back in 1999 that way. Sails up, on the trailer, backing into the wind down the ramp. Fortunately it wasn't very windy but it was just breezy enough to make me struggle with the boat for a bit in the really chilly winter water. It was a really dumb way to go nooby sailing and though I came out of it unharmed and undaunted, it could have easily ended badly if any decent wind had shown up - I wish Carl had been around to "take my picture"!

Before anyone gets the wrong idea; no, I don't carry the radio because I expect the world to save me from my own stupidity. That's just a last-resort deal. I also don't sail solo anymore, always dress for the conditions, and won't sail if I'm the only boat on the body of water (there's usually a good reason for that in Newport)...

Mike

I certainly have had my share of errors and rigging problems…. But it can be fun to watch others struggle (especially when they don’t need/want help). My biggest problem is I VERY reluctant to ask for help.

A few years ago, we had a new guy on the beach who had a plethera of troubles his first season. I had owned a Hobie 16 for many years and had walked up and offered him advice on several occasions when I saw something way out of wack.

One of the funnier times was when he stepped the mast on the trailer, and then raised the jib and main. He struggled fearcly (since his boat was stern into the wind in about 13 knots) to raise the main.

When he was finally rigged he walked over to me and asked, " now how do i get it off the trailer?" I explained that if the beach wasnt so packed he could turn the trailer around into the wind, but since it would be almost imposible with the limited room, I suggested he lower his sails and then remove the cat from the trailer. He did.

I then saw him again raising his sails with the sterns into the wind. I walked over to him and explained it would be much easier bows into the wind. He didn't listen.

Several years ago I was on the beach at Canyon Lake for the Longneck Regatta. While there I noticed a couple of guys rigging a H-18. There were several things that were "incorrect". rather that approach them by pointing out that what they were doing was "wrong" I asked them if the would like to know a "better way" to rig the boat that would make it faster.
Sometime's it is all in the way you approach someone. Those two gentleman became VERY good frinds of mine, a frindship that survives to this day.
"Strangers are just Friends we haven't yet met"

Stephen
H-18

I agree!

While stationed at Biloxi, MS I had the occasion to come upon a family trying to step the mast on an H16 at the beach. What made it especially difficult was that he was not using the hinge pin, nor was he trying to hinge it up at all. He was trying to lift it straight up into the mast base!

I walked up and asked just like you did. "Would you be interested in an easier method?"

He was more than happy to have some help. So much so that I got free use of the boat, that was parked on the beach, for the whole summer I was stationed there. Many good times were had on, and under that boat that summer... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've given up on using a boat launch. It is always a PIA. A busy day on the lake around here has many impatient fisherman that don't want me plugging on of the holes at the ramp for 5min while I pull the sails up. On the other hand launching from a swim beach gets many curious people asking questions and looking. Other than a regatta, or a fleet event I've only ran into another cat on the water once in the 4 seasons I've been sailing.

I wish someone had been around when I was making stupid mistakes.

Wow Karl, that kinda stinks. One of the things i like best about cat sailing is the camaraderie. I guess i am spoiled down here in Sailors Meca (Dunedin Fl)

I used to use a boat ramp several times when i lived near downtown Tampa (that was the nearest way into the water)

I always feared of tire slippage down the ramp!!!! or not being able to pull the cat up the ramp.... but that never happened.

One time i did hit some low lying branches driving away from the ramp. It ripped my mast right off the trailer and swong out infront of my car and then hit a parked car driver window ( i have never used a bungy to tied down since!).

I dont know how, but it didnt even scratch the window. Needless to say, I left the area quickly

That's how I first attempted to raise mine too... it worked fine with the Laser II <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm NOT saying I'm smarter than your average Bear, (shut up Carl)

BEFORE, I rigged my first used boat, a Prindle 18 (classic)
around 1988,
I DID read the manual, which discussed things like stepping the mast-safely, rigging, wind direction for rigging, never rigging sails on the trailer, etc., etc.,

Since then, I've gladly, without an attitude, helped many people realize that there was standardized ways to do things while rigging for safety, and ease.

HOw about the guy that attempts to step the mast in 18+mph winds. He's doing things right with the boat still strapped to the trailer, but it's head to wind. After two people struggle, you suggest RAISING the mast, and lowering for that matter, stern to wind. They're amazed how easy, like remote control it now is, and the wind now holds it up without a struggle, while the crew attaches the forestay.
THEN you suggest taking it off the trailer, and pointing head to wind to hoist the sheets, and you're now a hero (in your own mind anyway)

yeah.. in my case I didn't have a manual, in fact I didn't even have a mast yet, it was still an undrilled extrusion with no more than the mast step. I rigged it with ropes, with the real shrouds and stay just taped somehow. The idea was to verify if my measurements and CAD drawing were right. (I'm a specialist in drilling holes in the wrong spot...). But you are right, I thought I knew everything and didn't even search for a manual to download. (I did shortly after that, anyway...). The only one that was there to help me and discuss the procedure was the gardener (and he sure told me it was a bad idea!...).

How do you say taht is a really dumb

when you dudes have worked it out try it on yur honoured president Mr Bush and do us all a favour <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The beauty in a working democracy is that a president gets reviewed every four years (in the USA) After eight years you gotta go no matter what. This is year 8 so now we are struggling with which goof gets to muck it up for the next 4-8 years. I posted this photo 4 year ago and took some heat. Maybe its time to post it again. Don't look if your still a "W" fan. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

what happened to Cheney's nose? did he shoot it off? Wait, i thought they took away his gun after he shot his friends nose off?

Andrew, you had to see the movie. Here is an image you might find more familiar. (Again, "W" fans, don't look). No disrespect intended. Well, maybe just a bit. I'm very, very thankful we can say "That is a really dumb idea" in the voters booth.

LOL!!!!

the only thing I fear in the future is what everyone on the internet will turn their negative energy to when Bush is no longer in office.

Back on topic, when I see someone making mistakes rigging, I usually roll up and start a conversation first... ask them how long they've been doing this, and usually start offering tips. If they aren't receptive to my pointers, I usually just say "well have fun out there."

It's surprising to me that most glaring mistakes have to do with people rigging their boat without respect to wind direction. For people about to engage in harnessing wind power, that seems unbelievable. I guess we are not born with "wind sense", that ability to know where an invisible force is. When I was a rookie I used to wonder what people meant when they said, "When you see a puff coming, you should ..." See a puff? That seemed so impossible then. Now it seems so obvious. Perhaps good judgement comes from painful experiences. I call that adventure.

Like they say "life's a journey not a destination." How boring would it be if we knew it all from the start.

However I only say this because I have never done anything stupid. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That'll get'em talking. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Speaking for myself, I think one of the things that so fascinates me about sailing is that it constantly challenges me. I have never stopped learning, and as long as I am still sailing, never will.
Granted the learning curve is not nearly as steep as it used to be. One thing I started doing about five years ago is keeping a note page that I add to after each regatta. The "big " lessons are mostly behind me now, it is the "little things" that are easily forgotten from one year to the next that I learn and write down. I review my pages of "hen scratching" before each regatta to refresh my memory.
I re-read "Welcome to A-Fleet", and Rick White's "Catamaran Sailing for the 90's" each year, and I try to read at least one new book on Tactics and "Strategery" <Grin> each year.
I attend any seminar that might be availabe. Also, I try and attend any protest hearing that will let me either participate (hopefully as a judge, not a protestor or protestee) or observe, in an attempt to gain a more complete understanding of the rules. Also, reading and participating in forums such as this one is a great source of wisdom.
Sailing is kinda like the game of Chess, no matter how good you may get there is always someone better that can teach you something.

Dats whut I tink.

Stephen
H-18

Other mistakes I´ve made:
- Cutting two jib sheets
- Setting up the mainsheet the obvious way, instead of like this (sort of):

I predict Obama will win the Democratic nomination. In the general election he will lead in the polls but lose to John McCain because the Republicans will do a better job of rigging the election.

Noticed a bumper sticker yesterday that I thought was kinda funny... "I'd STILL rather be hunting with DICK CHENEY than driving with TED KENNEDY"

I know it is an election year, and failings and foibles of our elected representatives are at the front of many of our minds. I have my own thoughts that I have been tempted to share,
However, this is one of the very few places I feel like I can go to get away from news of Brittany Spears and political "commentary" ( that was the politest word I could come up with)
Whenever possible, lets please try and avoid bringing USA Politics into THIS forum.

Stephen

My first time out, 1982, Virginia Key, ocean side. I just bought my first cat, H-18, and had never sailed a boat before in my life. There were several cats on the beach, none were putting up sails. The wind (in retrospect) was 20 plus. I proceeded to set up the boat and hoisted sails. While hoisting the jib, it ripped from the flogging. A little duct tape later I was sailing east at 15 plus, never having sailed I had neve tacked or jibed, and was heading to Havana. Soon, I was in the shipping lanes and almost out of sight of land where we decided to turn back. We noticed that the lee shroud was hanging free just as we turned to tack.
The mast came down.
The rescue.... A friend of mine, George Griffin, just happened to see us out there. He was the owner of a Nacra 5.2 and a solo sailor. He saw us in the water and sailed by us and threw us his jib sheet with his #4 float attached, I swam out to it and grabbed it as he flew by. I got stretched as I slowed the boat down and fought to get back to my boat. We finally made it back to my boat and George toed us back. The Coast Guard Chopper came by and put an eye on us, we gave them a thumbs up and waved them off as the 5.2 towed us back to the beach.

My first time out, no clew about wind or weather....

So a Nacra had to save a Hobie..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

should'nt admit it ...but
went to stoney creek lake here in Michigan with my Nacra 450..gusting to 25 mph...used the boat launch did every thing right..except my 2 sons and my buddy all wanted to go at the same time...hmmm whats the weight limit..oh well does'nt matter lets go,we actually had a great time and she sailed well but we were close hauled and the leeward hull was allready digging when my biggest son decides to move forward to hold onto the mast...as I was yelling "no don't"
she stood right up on her nose and the jib was filling with water <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />..we all piled into one another like dominoes..
..she did a quick perouette on her nose and bobbed back up like a cork!!..we all started laughing with relief when "pop"
the sail filled and we were off again like a rocket..needless to say my son stayed rearward a bit..good times. but I think I should be more careful.
Carl

Ps There were to hobie 16's out as well..one of them pitchpoled rather violently twice and was turtled the second time..fortunetly nobody was hurt.

One day last summer my friend and i sat on 3 Rooker Island, about 5 miles north of our home beach. He looked up from his beer and said, "look at those storm clouds! If we were smart we would head home." I replied, "Ok, another beer it is!”

We actually beat the storm in. We had my Hobie 18 on the beach when he then said, "let’s go out and play on my Dart". Since he is an accomplished sailor and I know Darts handle big wind well (and I was properly lubricated), I agreed.

We watched all the kayakers coming in. Saw all the other catamarans coming in and even ignored a fellow cat sailor on the beach who warned the radar was really bad and he was taking his cat home. The last sign was a cute bikini clad kayaker calling us crazy for going out….

Well as we played in the 25+ gusts, and shot a rooster tail seemingly OVER 10 feet, all we could do was smile. Then it got ugly! We were now in 35-40 gusts and heading back to the shore. We were going VERY fast and he said to me, “HOLD ON” this is gonna be ugly!”

We drove p the beach at full speed…. About 1000 feet south of our launching area. Quickly dropped the main and jib and started to carry the sails back to our car area. IT WAS WILD, and we made it… Very exhilarating.

Here is where I messed up. As I walked back to my Hobie (that was rocking like crazy, ready to ghost fly a hull on the beach) I was concerned about my jib. I had troubles with it previously and was worried it might unfurl (as I had not tied it up when I went out on the Dart). As I touched the cleat, to make sure it was snug…. It popped open and my jib flew out. It flapped violently and louder than a rock concert. It was shredded in seconds. Bye bye matching sails.

I had to sit on the bows to keep the boat from flying away (or so it seemed). I decided I had better drop the mast… but Mother Nature wouldn’t play. Lightning exploded all around us, and I couldn’t get near the adjuster plate to undo the forstay.

Well,… it took 6 people but we get her on her side. Got the forestay off and dropped the mast. All the while the shredded remains of my jib were flapping wildly.

The rain and lightning forced us all to sit in cars. About 45 minutes later it calmed down enough for my friend and I to go get the Dart we had left down beach. A bolt of lightning exploded right behind us and across the sky. We both turned around (without saying a word) and went back to sit in the cars to wait longer.

The beach was strewn with cats on their sides, upside down and my shredded jib (sure wish I tied that up).

Well live and learn. Now I always tie up my jib. I will listen to friends who have seen the radar. Respect storm clouds a little more. And am happy I am here to sail another day.

Thats what makes the 16 so much fun in my opinion. The fact that you are ripping along at a very nice pace and never even see the pitchpole coming. You're checking out your nice rooster tail one second, and face first into the water the next! Having to always worry about pitching is what keeps me on my toes.

In my opinion the best way to say, "hey that is a really dumb idea" is to say "Hey dude, I don't think I would be caught dead on this tin can tri" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Problem is, I couldn't say anything...that project is beyond words....and all I can manage is to run as fast & far away as possible, screaming my head off.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Most people are pleased to get advice when you explain what they are doing will cost them dollars down the track.

I saw two young guys filling the hulls of their cat with water. I couldn't help myself and wandered over to ask why. They said they were leaving it on the beach and water ballast meant it wouldn't blow over. When told about osmosis they pulled the bungs, dried it out and tied it to a tree.

Sometimes though others won't take advice if you hit them with a fencepost. New owner of old cat enlists our help to set up on beach and then asks how to sail it as he hadn't had a prepurchase test sail. We said go out 200 yards and come back, then do it again. Stay close to shore so if you get in trouble someone can assist you. We said we will watch you. A short time later he disappears around the point of the bay as the breeze fills in apparently racing another cat. Hours later people start leaving the beach but we walk to the point and see the cat on its side drifting further offshore. I convince a returning fisherman in a tinny to head out and we eventually find the cat sailor sitting on one hull, a big lump on his forehead and being violently sick. He has no idea or the strength to get cat upright or to keep it upright in the breeze, or get back to shore with one rudder and the rudder bar torn off. We get cat upright and tow him in, pack up his gear and he disappears. Soon after there is a For Sale advert in the paper. I bet he's never gone near a cat since and tells his friend 'They're dangerous and unpredictable, look what happened to me!