Pro or not..

This topic popped up in another discussion, and it would be interesting to see what others think about it on a general basis. No agendas, and lets not get personal.

When are you a professional and what do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse? Fair or not? Good for the sport or not?

I think everyone should want to compete against the best in their sport whatever it is. The good thing about sailing is that even when you are old/older you can still compete with the best if you have the knowledge. Plus, racing against the best let's you know how you are progressing.

And believe me, I know all about how hard it can be since I moved to Pensacola with 3 years sailing experience on Hobie 16's and about 6 races total under my belt.

IMHO it can only be good, because the amateurs can learn while sailing alongside (behind) the pro's. But the pro's maybe worried about amateurs bumping into their hulls and messing up their game. Fair ? Why not ? Best way to improve yourself at anything is to always expect more and get in the game with people with superior skills. Fair for the pro's ? I assume it must always be nice to see the amateurs behind, remembering you that at one point you were one of them. I think that there is much more to it than the shiny cup at the end of the day, getting together is the most important thing.

Sailor classification is defined by ISAF, .pdf]sailor classification

Basically, if you make money from the sport you're a professional. Not all professionals win regattas since you may be employed in the industry but not necessarily the best racer.

In general, I think it is a good idea to mix the two. There are not many sports left where a recreational participant can mingle with the elite. The recreational participant gets to see rigging options, hear advice and learn from up-front close contact with the best in their sport. Maybe, just maybe - they can even have rights on a port-starboard situation or get a puff at the right time and sail over one of the best in their sport (hey…. it happens). It is an added bonus when the professional is open and engaging – in essence helping those who support his/her livelihood (or part of his/her livelihood).

Do I think they have a great advantage? Yes, but it is because they worked for it. You cannot begrudge their dedication and efforts at making a living at something we do for fun.

I'm for it (Pro's or Olympians sailing in regatta's).

There are not many sports that you can say that you participated with the best in the world.

*Distance Running (10k, 15k, 1/2 Marathon, Marathon)
*Sailing

Are the only two that I'm aware of (although someone mentioned golf -- but only if you win the Amateur title).

So, as tshan mentioned, I'd like to:

- look at how they rig their boat,
- watch what tactics they use while sailing
- try and keep up
- listen to the stories so that I can
- learn a little more

If they let me send in $350 to play golf at The Masters with Tiger and Phil next month I'd be all over it.
We have that same opportunity in sailing every year.

Just like in golf, you can have a good hole or a good race and beat a pro. Those are the things that keep people coming back.

The equalling interesting issue is about Catagory C.... Advertising on the sails.

Is the NASCAR look good for our niche of the sport?

The majority of our sailing is owner funded.. Yacht Clubs don't mix the two.

I hear some grumbling about the NASCAR look but nothing seems to have come of it.

What's the deal in other areas of the country...

Advertising on boats... OK... Tolerated... or Frowned on?

Before anyone else mentions it, I had a NASCAR boat. Not because I was a pro, but because I needed to find a creative way to buy a new boat that I otherwise couldn't afford. I was new to Hobie Cats, and everyone welcomed me with open arms.

It's now 11 years later, I'm on my third brand new boat, and I've spent an inordinate amount of time giving back to the sport over the years. I'm biased, but I'd like to think that my having sponsors all those years ago was a positive.

As for others, I've seen plenty of cats with sponsors, notably the distance racers. I actually think it adds an element of prestige to the general public (hey, those guys must be GOOD!)... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There are also a handful of boats with one or two small sponsors, which have always been welcomed, and I've never heard any complaints about it at Hobie regattas.

In my opinion, we're not really in a position to turn away boats just because they have stickers on them. Yacht clubs may choose to go that route, more power to them, but I don't think it does us any favors.

Mike

I think absolutely YES. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok Mary

Those benefits would be what exactly?

We are talking about several different things here as I see it.

1) Builders sponsoring factory teams ... or perhaps representing the boat themsleves at a regatta.

Part of the deal is that these individuals are supposed to be helpful and share knowledge, boat tunning, etc etc. They want to sell the boat to me and others so their attitude is usally "Helpful" This of course is far more succesful then taking the "win at all cost" attitude.

I think most of us view these individuals as great assets and we want them to come race with us.

However, other aspects are not positive in my opinion.

2) Another option is for an owner to pay for, or subsidize a rock star pro sailor to help the owner win a regatta. This is common in big boats and I have witnessed blow back when this happens in small cats.

The resentment is directed specifically at the individual and it's not subtle. IMO... Not good for the sport.

3) The final example is a sailor or team that goes out and gets corporate sponsorship and raises the competition level to now include fundraising!

This is a minor variation on Richie Rich going out and purchasing top flight equipment that may give him an edge on the race course. However, this usally corrects itself in a year. Usually Richie Rich finds that he wants to play with other people with $$$ and moves up to the $$$$ class.

Basically, you feel the playing field is not level and competing in the game while handicapped makes the game not worth playing.

Again, people are resentful that the game is being screwed by XXX BUT... they really can't say anything. It's not against the rules and more then one "sponsored boat" is on the course. Moreover, if they bring up the subject... they are told.
"Hey... money is always an issue in racing... deal with it."

I don't think we would actually know if sponsorship has a down side in this example. The sailor probably just drops out and goes to another competitive sport or changes classes to one where the class principals are more in alignement with his.


I figure that since yacht clubs have been running for 80 or 90 years and these issues are as old as two boats deciding to have a race.... they just might know something about how to manage the sport.

Usually, Richie Rich opts to play against other owners with equal resources and so this self corrects pretty quickly. The sailors with more ordinary means compete in their classes. Nobody is able to bring their personal buisness/ write off or their fundraising prowess into the game.

Bottom line... Sponsored Factory Teams... Good for the sport. Everything else... best handled by Corninthian rules and peer pressure. Hired pro's on your boat and Catagory C advertising... No good!

Your milage may vary!

Sorry, but I don't understand what all that has to do with putting advertising on your sails and having the "NASCAR look." I think you should be able to put as much advertising on your sails as you want to. And if you can get somebody to pay you for it, so much the better! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Certainly does not have anything to do with whether you are a good sailor or a bad sailor.
Well, maybe whether you are a good salesman or a bad salesman. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?

You know... plain (white usally) sails.

Nobody is arguing about who is fast or slow on the water...

This is a debate over the rules we play by!
We have equipment rules.
we have competitor rules.
we have the racing rules on the water.

You need all three for the sport...

You just keep saying


Why is that for the better?

Pro's are evil <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm a moderately crappy sailor. Is there anyone out there who would like to buy me a new boat that I can race? I'll put stickers all over it if necessary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've heard it said that when you sail with the same people all of the time your fleet will detune and become slower. Most of the time when pros show up it makes everyone step up to the plate and sail better.

I'm not sure if I understand you exactly, but I will add that that is why one-design beachcat racing is is so cool. For example, pretty much, if you spend $10,000 on a brand new Hobie 16, that's it, you're done, no need to drop anymore dough. (I've seen guys win races on $1000 H16's) There is noting else to spend your money on to make the boat go faster other than sailing. I saw a guy last summer win a race against some of the best 16 sailors in the world on a beat up, scavenged together (2003?) H16.

Other classes are different, but for the most part in the sailing world beachcat racing is cheap. The sponsor thing is less of a factor, because being rich is less of a factor.

Who sponsors beachcat teams here in the US other than small businesses anyway? The dollar amount is nominal if any.

Mark,
The invitation still stands for you to come over and peel the stickers off all of my Worrell sails if it bothers you so much.We've been through this before.
They do get attention at regattas ,mostly from people who are interested in getting into cat sailing. When they start asking questions I try to get 'em in to it.If you think this hurts sailing, then that seems to fit your ongoing agenda of alienating the cat racers we have. Keep over-thinking this kinda stuff and you'll end up sailing by yourself.
Look forward to seein' you at Spring Fever, so I can give you a boot in the butt. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

p.s. "So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?"
For the same reason most yacht clubs don't allow multihulls. 'Cause they're living in the past(w/ their head up their posterior) and relish the archaic English based racing rules.

I think it was Colby who pointed that out to the California boys when he came down to put on a race clinic

hijack- What classes don't allow advertising. I was kinda planning on pasting my business name down the side of my boat and try to write it off.

Isn't it interesting to note that no EU or Aussie sailors have much to say on this subject? They're probably chuckling at us.

This thread was started because a master uni-rig sailor was testing a boat at a regatta??? Congratulations to him, Where else than on a race course can you get better testing? I, unfortunately, missed a H14 clinic put on by him when he told everyone exactly what he does and why (no secrets) and then proceeded to kick everyone's a$$ in the subsequent races. Tells me there's only so much you can do with boat speed and it gives little old me hope, I only wish there were more "pros" to go around in the USA.

Hi There

I'm not sure what Aussies would say to be honest, I've just sailed in the Taipan State Titles, which is a category C event. The most signage on a boat I saw was, GOODALL YACHT SAILS in big letters on a big head Taipan main, which was on the mast of Garys FCA Blade, other than that just a couple of AHPC website stickers.

Regards

Especially when they have rainbow coloured sails!

just got a new set, they are sky blue, still evil though...

I have no idea. They are my sails and my hulls, and I don't think anybody should have the right to tell me I can't put the name of my company on my boat or paint my sails pink with yellow polka dots. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The only possible limiting factor should be whether the advertising is in good taste. (Although, even the oldtime sailing ships had naked women out on their prows. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Is the problem that other sailors think the sailors with advertising on their sails are better sailors, or "professional" just because it appears they are being sponsored by businesses?

So what? That has nothing to do with their sailing ability. As I said before, it just shows that they are better salesmen. And besides, the more stuff they stick on their sails, the heavier their sails and the more it slows them down. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sails are natural billboards, and we ought to use them to help defray our costs of sailing -- or at least to promote our own businesses. We put advertising on our cars, so why not on our boats?

What if I decided to put bumper stickers on my sail and hulls from every state and every park and every resort or restaurant or country I have ever sailed at -- would that be illegal, too? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What if I put advertising tattoos (temporary, I hope) on my body where they can be seen? Would that be illegal?

I have not been in very many regattas, but the few I have attended included Aruba (Olympians and professionals taking part), UK F18 Nationals (professionals included) and the Spitfire Europeans (all amateur (as far as I know!)).

In every case, all sailors were willing to help each other out, with loan equipment for repairs, and tips on rigging. I was parked next to one of these sailors throughout one of these events, and they were helpful to everyone who asked. The F18s even had training days beforehand and debriefs during the regatta, given by the paid sailors.

You can't get better than that, and basically for free.

I have also seen some 'unsportsmanlike' behaviour on the race course, by some of these people, but I realised that's all part of the (their) game, and they're pushing it to the limits!

I was very tempted to protest one of the Gold medalists, but figured I was motivated by the chance to say I had done so, rather than because I could benefit by any redress I might have been awarded! On the whole, their presence is very positive.

Mary, I think the whole ban on advertising goes way back to when US Sailing was called the US Yacht Racing Union. They used the word "Corinthian" quite a bit back then. It was supposed to be a "Gentleman's Sport", like Golf, where rich people got together on the weekends, wore funny clothes and showed everyone how much money they had, thus, there was no need for sponsorships to pay for sails and equipment. There was no money in winning, just a silver bowl or pickly dish.

Dennis Connor was hated by some when he turned the America's Cup into a full time job vs. a few weeks in June, way back in the 1970's, the years after Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it (1977?)

If you look at most big-boat monohull regattas, it's still that way (Big boats, meaning 40'+). They do however hire Pro's to drive their boats, but they have put limits on just how many Pro's you can put on each boat.

Well, here are some of the definitions of "corinthian," and I guess they fit us all perfectly. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Noun 1. Corinthian - a man devoted to the pursuit of pleasure
man-about-town, playboy
hedonist, pleasure seeker, pagan - someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures

Co·rin·thi·an (k-rnth-n)
adj.
1. Of or relating to ancient Corinth or its people or culture.
2. Architecture Of or relating to the Corinthian order.
3. Elegantly or elaborately ornate.
4. Given to licentious and profligate luxury.
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of Corinth.
2. A luxury-loving person; a bon vivant.
3. A wealthy amateur sportsman, especially an amateur yachtsman.

"pagan". I may have to change my boat's name.

Oh for the love of....just because I've got sponsorship on my boat doesn't mean I'm going to play unfairly - that is what you're saying right? Besides, the only real Pro that I know is JC and I look forward to every opportunity I get to race against him.

I ditto what Mary keeps repeating; I couldn't do as much in this sport if it weren't for sponsors. I think you're just jealous about our great looking boat. And while Todd may let you come peel his decals off, that offer does not extend to mine.

You would probably argue that the result of not allowing pro's is because they take the game too seriously. Clearly, I'm not speaking on behalf of the pros out there, but I allege it's the Corinthians who actually take this too seriously.

I would argue it's the Corinthians who get pissed when pro's show up with -free- equipment. We could all go a whole lot faster on a brand new boat with brand new sails and a brand new harness, to say nothing of being able to sail with a guy who does it for a living. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Still, I would prefer to be able to race with pro's when it comes to this sport, and by that I mean, against pro's. I know there is no way I will beat them but as long as they are willing to put on a free clinic before/after/during a regatta, and explain some of the finer points to us weekend warriors, I'm all for it.

And if you ever get a lucky shift and beat Randy to A mark, well, you will have bragging rigths for at least a week or two! I like having them at the regattas so I can ask questions, as long as they are willing to answer, I'm all for it. If instead they want to be A-holes about it, then I think I might -accidently- drive my Inter 20 right into them...:o That Karma thing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

But that brings up another question, Who's a Pro? Does owning a catamaran dealership make a guy a Pro? Does building cats for a living make you a Pro? How about sail makers, are they Pro's? Are they only Pro's when they are being paid to test sails and maybe given new boats to use as a test platform?

I think not, for our discussions. On the other hand, if a guy is PAID to race the boat, not build it, etc. then he is a "Pro" in my book. Or, if he was once paid to race, and was good at it, he's a Pro. Like racing a weekend buoy race against Russel Couts, or something like that, vs. racing against Kirk Newkirk, who is not paid to sail but sells boats.

Still, I would rather the Pro's came to our local races as it improves the quality of the competion, usually. As far as a Pro racing in the "Corinthian" Alter Cup??? I don't know that that has ever been brought up.

About the attached photo; my company did pay for the stickers and paint on the spinnaker only. I was hoping to get them to pay for a new set of sails for the next year, but they went bankrupt instead, I never got a dime out of them for sails or equipment... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

of course I am not saying that. (I make all of the CBYRA events Catagory C to accomodate you.... I also count on nobody paying attention to the CBYRA rules).

The issue is one about the "good of the sport" and how do you manage it.
Eg... should the guy with carbon fiber prosethetic legs be allowed to run the regular olympics? For sure, he is not cheating.

Should Joe's Meat shop Inc, and the owner, Joe be allowed to advertise on his Hobie 16 and thus write the boat and all of his expenses off on his buisness as an advertising expense at your standard Hobie division points regatta.

You could take Mary's position... who cares.... its' a pro am game.

Alternatively. you could ask
Will Joe's actions have a corrosive effect on the pecking order in the Hobie 16 class? Will some people say... Hmm... Not a game I will compete in.

The host yacht club and the class associations make those decisions. Almost universally, they do not tolerate this mixing of pro and corinthian sailing ... they understand its not good for the game they are running. It's part of the reason they give trophies and not cash prizes.

The IHCA allows catagory C but allows organizing authorites to restrict this practice. They reserve the right to brand National and World events?

Does anyone know if specific divisions or Hobie clubs have restricted this in the past? Catagory C is a relatively recent addition to the rule book.

I don't care who sails what. But, if you're one of the best sailors in world and you're being supplied by the factory I think you have an obligation to state the fact, if for no other reason than simple courtesy. If simple courtesy is beneath you, that's your call.

We week-end warriors are paying the bills. We are the ones buying what few boats are being sold. In recognition of that, a simple declaration is not too much to ask. A level playing field is not achievable, but I would like to know how big the bumps are.

Of course I'm not a big racer but here is my opinion, fwiw. If someone gets sponsors to help with his equipment it doesn't make him a pro. (Like Mary said, it makes him a good salesman) Others complain about said person getting newer equipment when we have to use what we can scrounge up. If the issue is equipment, weather he buys it or gets it by sponsorship, why not protest the guy who does really well (financially) and is able to just go out and buy the equipment? Its the same thing... there will always be inequalities because of this (money) issue.

Some guys have talent (discussed in another thread not to be done again!) and others can learn really well and become proficient enough to be at the top of the fleets consistantly. Would you consider them pros? Not if they don't get paid you say? What if they beat some "pros"?

Bottom line is, pro or no pro, the idea is to go out and sail. Try to be the best that you can if thats what you want and who knows you may just end up beating a "pro" at some point. For me, its sailing with others trying to make the boat go as fast as I can. If I can do well then I've accomplished what I've set out to do.

I say we all Play together... AND PLAY NICE!!!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Clayton

Karl, as Mark just posted, the Hobie class rules allow Category C advertising.

As for the host of other questions by Mary and others, there are clear definitions in the rules and ISAF regs on what constitutes advertising, and what constitutes being a "Pro."

As for an OA deciding to limit advertising that is otherwise allowed per the rules of a class, that would need to be in the NOR, and you should expect that it "could" impact the turnout at your event (people aren't likely to start peeling stickers just to attend your event).

In general, this is one of those politics and religion issues, I think. There's no way everyone is ever going to get on the same side of the fence.

Since there is a variety of options available, the best course may be to decide what matters to you, and find the class and type of event that suits your preference rather than trying to change the events and classes to suit your preference.

Mike

Mike

the Hobie 16 probably has the longest set of traditions in place and the class has run their own events for years and years. Do you have a policy or class culture? You don't see any NASCAT 16;s out there.

Is there a common practice? Does the class culture stomp on Joe and his Joe's Meat Market program and make it clear that he is not playing nicely in the sandbox?

The Nacra 20's and the Worrel/Tybee grew together and so the NASCAT look and culture are accepted. (Don't worry Todd... you don't have to worry about me ripping the stickers off your boat over your cold dead body)

I know I have seen Coca Cola branded H16 boats that come from the Mexican Worlds? or ISAF Youth games? and nobody has been forced to take the stickers off.

If you did take the stickers off you could be protested. That's how the boat was delivered by the factory. And, according to class rules the boat has to be sailed..."as supplied by the Hobie factory." <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

multi-post reply:

OK, there was a time that I couldn't sail at a Nationals because I wasn't good enough. Now there is discussion to get rid of people that are to good. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

People should be able to get whatever sponsorship they can and paste the stickers all over if they want. (although Bru-cat made me dizzy).Great marker boat on different tacks.

I do think people want to help but often don't know what to do. I always asked for volunteers by telling someone that I needed them for a job, who would help them and what they needed to do(railroad style).I can't think of anyone not agreeing to help. my 2 shillings

Hi Mark,

Yes, my boat that I referred to was a Hobie 16. There are several other Hobies (including 16s) that race regularly that have sponsors, including at least one Youth team. The Puerto Rican and Brazilian teams always have sponsors so they can attend NAs.

The only year that special provisions were made for NAs (that I'm aware of) was 2005 when the H16s were in Ventura on supplied boats. The Worlds are also supplied boats (Coca-Cola, etc.).

We just want more boats on the water. No one has come to an event with lots of money and a new (sponsored) boat, and won the event. Even if that happened, I don't think anyone would reject them, I think they would see that as a reason to figure out why they got beat and try to win the next time.

I'm talking about non-H16 "pros" here, not Enrique, who comes in with Red Bull and Suzuki and kills us on a charter boat. Even if we gave him a 1983 boat half-filled with water, he'd probably kill us. And that's the point. On most of our boats, you need time on the water in the fleet to win. The rest is just extra weight and drag...

Pat, BRU Cat made ME dizzy! And, it was almost always at the back of the fleet, so if you were finding me near you, chances are you were getting killed too... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Why would anyone object to someone having a few stickers on their boat? If you can find a sponsor to keep the costs down a little then IMHO that's awesome.
It doesn't necessarily say anything about how professional they are though.

As for the Pro's, the ones I have met so far are very helpful and are responsible for taking the sport as a whole to another level.

Edit: The only case that I know of where some yacht had to remove his stickers was in Belgium (where else? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), they where promoting a political campaign.

I love competing on the race course against pros. It is awesome to watch how smoothly they sail if you are lucky enough to get close enough to watch. I've even stayed in dirty air and let a pro roll right over us just to be able to watch their technique.

I've also found them very open on giving advice - in one case a pro came over to us on the water one time between races and discussed some tuning issues.

As for stickers - I think they make the sport look more colorful and attractive to the public and are a great way of offsetting some of the costs of racing. Just 'cause you have a bunch of stickers on the boat don't make you fast. Quality time on the water is what counts. In the classes I'm involved with (F18 or Hobie Tiger OD) the class rules are tight enough that I don't think a team can buy a clear advantage with money unless they invest it in a coaching program under a professional or use it to travel to big events to gain experience.

Awwww ,Come on Mark,
I've got a bunch of sails I need the stickers off of and It's way harder than you'd think to get 'em off without ruining the sail.You could get out some of your aggression on 'em.I'd love to have a pure white sail. I'll bring a set to Spring fever just to let you practice on, cuz that's the swell kinda guy I am.We'll talk about this there over a cold barley sandwich.
Do you honestly think guys like me, Jake,Kirby,etc. are a threat to the sport because we have stickers on our sails. Just like I've told you every year when you bring this up, for every dollar that has been donated to my team I've spent at least a $100 of my own.I always said I oughta just put my Credit card number on the sail,cuz that's my sponsor. 100:1 is a pretty dangerous spending ratio ,Think about it, since you like to over think stuff.

Bwaaaahaaahaaa! Boy...I say boy, that's the truth right thar.

My wife just offered me $1,000.00 to race in the Macho Man. Does that make ME a PRO?

As boring as NASCAR is, it would probably be worse than it is if the cars were almost all white, with just the manufactures name, possibly logo, and a number painted on the cars. There is shear genius in marketing when it comes to NASCAR, otherwise how could something so dull be so successfull?

No, but it does make you a stud...that is....unless she's trying to get a weekend alone with her boyfriend. What was her name again? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lola.

Take a look at the article in Sailing World this month

The article recounts the history of how to handle the Pro / AM nature of the sport.

Most of the favorable points that supporters brought up in this thread of the Pro/am game are also noted in the article. The fuzzy lines for this game date all the way back. Rules have come an gone or been ignored for ever.

So,

In a NYYC survey... 43% felt that proffesionalism was a problem. Just under half thought that the pro's should not compete in the amateur ranks! (What is it for cat sailors ... are we that much different from the rest of the world)

The Mumm 36 class cratered when the amateurs stopped playing.
The most proffesional catamaran class in the USA was the Tornado Class...No restrictions on advertising or proffesionalism. Total North american boats that go racing. maybe 10... number of regattas in USA 3.
Total left after the Olympic carrot taken away ??? Regattas scheduled in 08 ZERO!

Yet the amateurs LOVED racing against the pros (That was my experience as well).... Hmm.. my take home point... the mix is not sustainable.

the next big class became the Farr 40 class which limited the pro's contribution to 4 on the boat.

The NYC guys created a new class and new boat from scratch the Swann 42 where the fundamental rule is no play to pay.


So... The big point is to address the question. "what is the proper balance of pro / am for catamaran class growth."

Seems to me... that proper balance would have as a first step. No advertising on the sails at all events below a North American championship. (put the stickers on and off as needed. If you want to keep them on for your sponsor you .... you can race in the pro class for your boat.
(The Low Rent Regatta did this for years with a manufacturer class racing seperately from the Amateur class

This no advert rule is almost a universal principal of yacht clubs and most classes around the country. Maybe we should follow the lead!

And while we are at it, I think advertising should also not be allowed on T-shirts and hats, and beer sponsors for regattas should not be allowed.

My opinions.
When are you a professional: When you are racing sailboats full time, and are paid to do it.
What do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse: When I have gone to a "professional" event I mentally "block them out" from the results, studying how we have done against the other amateurs instead.
Fair or not: I know we are not competing on an equal basis.
Good for the sport or not: I dont think mixing amateurs and pros in any sport is good for the sport.


The pros bring both good and not so good to the sport. My thinking is that if we want to grow the numbers in the sport of sailboat racing we should not mix pros and amateurs. We race to win, and amateurs will very, very, rarely win against professionals. We can enjoy and shine in our own progress, but in the end racing is about winning, not how much better you have become. Many say this is not the case, but in the end, honestly, you race to win. Digress: There being only one winner is another reason why we (catamaran racers) should emphasize the social aspect of going racing.

Mark,

You've gone off the deep end. Stickers "on and off"? It takes me anywhere from 25 to 40 hours to design, manufacture, and apply the graphics on one of our Team Seacats sails and if I were charging full price for it, the job would be about $1500. Pulling them off takes about 30 to 40% longer than applying them.

I think part of the distinction being grossly missed here is that none of these guys that sail in our catamaran regattas could be considered pros - I'm CERTAINLY not a pro yet I carry sponsors.

I was at a monohull regatta a couple of years ago where one of the winning boats was protested at the end of the regatta because "he was a pro". He IS a sailmaker and he wins a lot of regattas (and has been known to shave a rule or two) but he is not a professional sailor though his profession is in sailing. The protest was eventually tossed but it did make us sit around waiting hours for the awards presentation.

Examples like this are simply bad sportsmanship - sore loser if you like. If I race a catamaran PRO on the water and I get beat, I got beat by a better team.

I do agree, however, that in cases of big money that the direction of a class could get frustrating for some owner/sailors but I think you only see these dramatic affects on teams that require much more than two people on the boat - I think the drastic difference in financial investment and performance can be cause for a lot of frustration but I also believe that this should be regulated by the individual class - not the regatta.

There is probably 4 or 5 catsailors in the US that could be considered "pro" anyway so why are we even having this conversation?

but in the end racing is about winning

But winning for me is a relative thing. I still get excited in the small wins I have at each regatta. The ONE time I get to the A-mark first. The ONE time I didn't follow the pack and pulled out a first, in ONE race.

The guys that go to the Pro-Am type of events in other sports do it for the social aspect as well as the chance to have that small win. Or to have one of the Pro's give them a word of encouragement, or coaching tip.

Most of us are already trying to beat the "local pro" in our own areas. It's how we gauge our performance. Then one day we wake up and we are the "local pro". Either through experience, or attrition.

I think in the end there are events that the PRO's don't want amatuers in, and visa-versa.

But when I wanted to pump up support for a youth event, one of my first thoughts was, "how do I get a PRO, big name, hot-shot to come and talk to the kids?"

Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is only room for one (person/team) at the top, so there is no big surprise that attrition is a problem in racing.



That is on the fringe of the question, but OK. If the world champion was an amateur or a pro, what difference would it make to the kids?

[quote]Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
[quote]

No, I'd be very happy with being number 10. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd be even happier to be getting paid to go sailing and racing everyday.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
good discussion Rolf...

Hey Jake, I'm gonna have to tag out and hand this debate over to you. I've been arguing with Mark for almost 10 years over this. He doesn't get the distinction between us and pros and obviously doesn't know what a PITA stickers are to apply or remove. The deep end remark fits. It's truly a shame because he puts forth huge amounts of effort in organizing races and trying to build fleets, and then turns around and comes up with this garbage which if implemented would cut the fleets we have down the middle.
Mark if you read this could you please define what YOU think a pro class sailor would be.
Todd

What would your definition of a pro be then? Do you think pros under your definition are good for the sport? Honestly, I am interested.
I think this is an important discussion to have in sailing. Not just for the cats but all sailing.

My definition of a pro is one who makes his living(read is paid for)racing sailboats. That means a salary not free equipment, not a case of beer, or gas money. And yes I think pros are good for the sport, they make everyone else step up their game.Unless your the number 1 amateur, your getting beat by somebody, don't be sour because it's a pro sailor.The best are the best, if your getting beat by them then yes it does get frustrating but don't confuse getting beat by someone because they were getting paid with the fact that maybe they were just better than you.
Todd

Mark seemed to be talking about the big monohulls where a guy buys a boat and then hires a bunch of professionals to race it. I don't see any relevance to beach cats.

Then you and I agree on what we think a pro is.
As I wrote earlier, I dont think pros and amateurs compete on an equal basis. They practice as a living and for a living, while we do it as a pasttime. Time in the boat is the large difference between a pro and an amateur. Time in the boat is a race winner, we know that.
You say they are good for the sport becouse they raise the performance level needed to compete? Raising the quality and performance is a good thing. On the other hand, how many quit racing or never begin becouse they realise they can never get at the top of the game?

I am certainly not a top amateur racer being beat just by the pros, and becouse of it resenting pros. I am thinking about the sport in general and racing small boats specifically.

IMHO being a "Pro" or an "Amateur" (Hate these words) is all about a matter of attitude and not if you "get paid" to sail.
If I recall correctly Laruffa won the Tiger Worlds ahead of the "Pros" by having a professional (thorough) preparation.
In Holland anywayz the "Pros" get beaten by the "amateurs" on a regular basis. If you dont have a professional attitude you will indeed always remain an "amateur".

Rolf, I have been hearing for years that in some European countries, small-boat sailors who are training for the Olympics are paid salaries by their governments or national authorities or whatever to do full-time sailing.

That is not the case in the United States. There is very little funding, and people have to have regular jobs or rely upon finding sponsors to keep them going. Frankly, I don't know how any U.S. sailors manage to put on Olympic campaigns. It would be a major stretch for me to call them "professionals."

I would call them "experts." Otherwise, they would not be trying for the Olympics and sacrificing as much as they do in terms of family and career.

Pro, i.e. professional. Some one who does it as his/her profession.

But somebody who does WHAT as his/her profession?

I use the term "rock star" when I am thinking about the pros or near pros that I very very very occassionally race against. I sail with a guy who used to be a pro (paid for sailing formula 40s back in the day) but he doesn't get paid anymore. Is he still a pro then?

As far as I am concerned, anybody who is a pro is somebody who was a great enough amateur for people to pay him or her now.

And if nobody was paying him/her that person would still be a winning sailor.

As I have said over and over, you don't become a great sailor by being a "professional," you become a professional because you are a great sailor.

So by saying that you don't want to compete with "professionals," you are just saying that you don't want to compete against great sailors.

I know of several sailors (including a very "popular" one) who are happy to sail against "no names" because it is easier on the ego!

Mary,

that piece of logic is worthy of Holbergs comedy "Erasmus Montanus". A book worth reading.
What makes a great sailor is time on the water. An amateur can become a great sailor and in time companies might employ him to sail for them, so far I am with you. When you can spend 5 days a week on the water with coaches, you become so much better that an amateur sailing 1-3 times a week never will catch up. This is the difference and the reason I think pros and amateurs should not compete. There is a reason an champion amateur boxer start with easy matches when he goes pro. It is the same with a lot of sports so perhaps they have a point?
Transferring from amateur ranks to pro should not be a big issue, so I dont quite understand the depth of feelings running here. It is just two different leagues to me.

Here in Norway our olympic teams recieve some funding, but far from enough to do a campaign on. They have to find sponsors to be able to compete at the highest level and still eat. As far as I can think of just now, we only have one professional sailor here, Knut Frostad.
I think it is much the same with other countries, but the amount of funding the athletes recieve varies. The big teams and the big names makes decent money from their sailing.

Tony,

are you saying you have weekend warriors routinely placing in front of teams like Mitch and Pim in the Netherlands?? Then you should send those sailors out on the olympic circuit instead of the current teams <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Remember my definition of "pro"?

I think the Hobie Tiger Worlds 2008 you referred to actually supports my point. If you look at the top ten, you see loads of pros there. The big difference is that they were not sailing in their usual teams. E.g. Bundy and Caroljin, Tiffany and Mitch (who is Tiffany??). If you had Bundy and Ashby, Mitch and Pim, Caroljin and Sebbe sailing with their usual level of teamwork in place I think the results would have been different (Dont take this as derogatory towards Mark L. and crew, they did stellar).

Did anybody READ the Article? It very nicely makes my point.
Does ANY one read the rule book.

Here is the not such a nice way to explain it to you..... since you guys refuse to look into the issue.

Pro ??.. my definition someone who is compensated for their actions. What is so hard to understand. EG.... Take prostitution... as Spitzer so nicely demonstrated... it doesn't matter how much you pay her... she is identified as a PRO and whether he paid her an apple, 10 bucks or 10,000 doesn't change anything. How much stuff you get is not the point.

Every one has their OWN definition. So.. What is the REAL definition in sailing.... not everyone's opinion!

ISAF puts it this way.

Definitions of this Code
Work includes:
employment, self-employment, payment by fee and any ad-hoc payment ; or full time and part time work; or for services supplied, whether in person or through a partnership or limited company.

Pay and its derivatives means: the receiving by a sailor of; or the acceptance by a sailor of an offer to give money, money's worth, remuneration, gratuities or compensation in any form.
Pay does not include:
a grant towards; or provision of; or reimbursement of money not exceeding the amount of reasonable expense incurred for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals in connection with and necessary for a specific event.


ISAF uses these definitions to create three categories for clubs and classes to use AS THEY WANT.

22.2.1 Group 1
(a) Except as provided below, a Group 1 competitor is a competitor who has completed the qualification period and:
(i) takes part in racing only as a pastime, and whose work does require knowledge or skill capable of contributing to the performance of a boat or boats in a race or series; and
(ii) has not been paid in connection with participation in racing.

So.. Jake and Todd... You are or were into Cat 2 or 3 ... this usually gets you called "a PRO"

Paying for your crew's costs to get to a regatta does NOT make that person a PRO.

ISAF sailor classification

Rolf's point is that cat 1 and the Cat 2/3 sailors should have different events. The Yacht Clubs that I work with run events for Category 1 sailors. Doesn't matter if its a laser or 70 foot racing yacht. Nobody is flaunting their sponsor logos and ignoring the advertising restrictions. They overlook the Cat 2/3 issues and leave that up to the class to enforce.

I am much less rigid on this issue then you think. It would be nice if we did not have the BLATANT disregard for their rules. Simply ditch the advertising. Then you just don't ask about what category sailor you are. (If you used your plain sail in the regional regattas and your NASCAT sail for the event that you got sponsored for you are golden. You would not have put the stickers on and off... right!)

I am not as hard nosed as Rolf who would have you guys racing in your own class.

You will find that the article explains WHY people built a new class and STRICTLY controlled the rules for Cat 1 sailors.

This is the discussion worth having. Not what constitutes being a pro.

Rolf: Careful of sniffing those epoxy fumes... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


(IMHO this is another completely useless Catsailor discussion, no more replies from me).
Less talk, more sail!

I am very careful with epoxy fumes and dust <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I dont think the discussion is useless, it is rather an important topic. The problem with any internet discussion is to keep control of it and not fall for the temptation to slip in a few barbed comments when not everybody agrees with your view.
When you know a person in real life and respect him you are more inclined to listen to what he say and at least consider the points. On the internet, I dont think it works quite like that. But over time, perhaps what is said in an internet discussion previously re-surfaces in a different context and you find it to be true or undeniably false. I know I have learnt a lot of stuff from discussions here which seemed useless at the time, even if what I learnt perhaps was not the topic for discussion..

So Mark let me get this straight you want me to go out and get sponsors to buy ANOTHER suit of sails to the tune of $4,000 so I can have a "clean" set of sails. There is no way I could afford 2 sets any other way.

"Pay does not include:
a grant towards; or provision of; or reimbursement of money not exceeding the amount of reasonable expense incurred for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals in connection with and necessary for a specific event."from the rules you posted.
Looks like I haven't been paid according to that.

Rolf, I have known Mark for over 15 years and consider him a friend, so don't take this any other way. I also have not directed any of my comments at you. I think you are in a different situation over there. We have trouble scrapping together a class start alot of the time and to arbitrarily divide the fleets over something that effectively makes no competitive difference is crazy.
Us "NASCAT"(that's a stupid term) guys are just like everyone else, we just have heavier sails from all that vinyl.;)

I think the crazy part of all this is that somehow I'm presumed to be a better sailor because I beat the pavement trying to find a nickle to help offset some of my equipment cost. I did the math and I'm better off getting a second part-time job vs. the time and effort it takes to get the sponsorship.

The most important point here is:-

All Pro sailors are evil and should be banned from competition and even from being in the same city as a competition.

much like Arparthied worked in South Africa <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now back to reality:-

Do you guys like your boats and the way they have evolved over the past decade? If you do then you have Pro sailors to thank for those innovations.

Take away the Pro's and you loose the best minds for developing your boats further and making your sailing better.

Well, as Jake and others have said, this discussion is not really relevant as far as beach cat sailing in the United States.

But obviously, there is interest in the subject, considering the number of posts on this thread.

It seems like the big problem is defining what is a "professional," and ISAF does not do a very good of defining that with their three sailor classifications. Thus, their extensive FAQ's, that try to cover all the questions about what is and is not a professional and who is in which category, still do not answer all the questions.

I can only think of a very few cat sailors in the U.S. who might be Class 3 professionals.

I can think of many, many people who would be Class 2 professionals, according to the ISAF guidelines. The way I read it, that would include people who:

Design boats, build boats, sell boats,

Design sails, build sails, sell sails,

Design masts, build masts, sell masts,

Design blocks and other rigging that can improve performance on cats,

Put on seminars to improve race-training skills,

Write books or produce videos regarding race-training,

Publish sailing magazines that have articles about racing,

Someone who just writes an article for a sailing magazine about how to tune your particular boat better for racing, if he/she gets paid for writing that article.

People who run sailing schools that teach people about racing,

Someone who gets paid for coaching a sailboat racing team for a high school or a yacht club.

And I'm sure there are more.

And, yes, based on some of that, both Rick and I would probably be considered "professionals." I'm so flattered. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Now if I can just get somebody to actually pay me money to sail their boat for them, I can move up to Class 3! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Of course, my sister is a MUCH better sailor, but she is totally amateur, because she does not make any money from the sailing industry. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I have never, ever, been paid by someone to go sailing. I have, however, sold advertising space on my boat and sails.

Yes, and I think that's great -- everybody ought to sell advertising on their boats/sails, or at least advertise their own company or business. I can't see the connection between advertising on boats/sails and professionalism of the sailors themselves.

We have put our company name on our sails, but the stickers keep coming off. Bummer. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Our Wave fleet up at Put-in-Bay is seriously talking about each of us getting a sponsor from one of the town businesses to advertise on our sails. We race right there in front of the waterfront restaurants, or in front of the Monument, twice a week, in full view of the tourists. We figure employees of the advertised businesses will be rooting for their "team" boat -- and maybe there will even be some betting going on. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It will certainly draw more attention to and interest in the sailing. And that can only be good. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What's the difference between that and the town's softball leagues, with each team being sponsored by a different business and having the company name on their shirts?

That was exactly my point. It's not like I go blazing a trail and win every regatta I attend just because I've got some sponsorship.

Hey Jake,
What I did was TRADE space on my sail for a grant towards; or provision of; or reimbursement of money not exceeding the amount of reasonable expense incurred for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals in connection with and necessary for a specific event.
Not sure but my guess is you did the same.
Todd

Did you also trade space on your "SAIL" ?

"That Boy's 'bout as sharp as a bowlin' ball" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Howzat Dexter P. Spellchecker?
Thanks for the help, I guess bein' an F-16 sailor you spend alot of time lookin' at a computer,makes fer a weh bedder spailler.
"Now that's no way for a kid to be wastin' his time,readin' that longhead gobbledygook."

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

People who live under stones shouldn't throw glass houses.

So from what i'm reading i must be considered a pro bacause my sponser (the wife) pays my race fee's every week LOL
Back on topic The couple of professionals that i know when they come home the last thing that they want to do when they get home is go sailing they would love to go to work and havea normal 9 to 5 job,I guess what i'm tring to say that alot of us sail for enjoyment and stress relief,Where pro's have to do it,with the stressnand probably no relief

People who get stoned shouldn't live in glass houses.

Is that Epoxy glass or polyester glass?

I tried my hardest - but I can't touch that. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Did anybody READ the Article? It very nicely makes my point.
Does ANY one read the rule book.

Here is the not such a nice way to explain it to you..... since you guys refuse to look into the issue.

Pro ??.. my definition someone who is compensated for their actions. What is so hard to understand. EG.... Take prostitution... as Spitzer so nicely demonstrated... it doesn't matter how much you pay her... she is identified as a PRO and whether he paid her an apple, 10 bucks or 10,000 doesn't change anything. How much stuff you get is not the point.

Every one has their OWN definition. So.. What is the REAL definition in sailing.... not everyone's opinion!

So by buying my wife a ring your calling her a pro?

Look at the noob get mad.

The beauty of the sport is racing the best.

Damn right. I don't know how I would continue if I were Nigel.

I think we are all looking at this from the wrong angle.

We should punish the people who are PAYING the money, not the people who are TAKING it. To get a level playing field, we need the wealthy sailors to race in separate categories from the poor people.

The wealthy are the ones who are able to buy new boats every year, buy as many sails as they want, and pay experts to race their boats for them. It's just not fair!

Most of that posted was quoted Mark not the Noob.
See everybody at Spring Fever, I'm hittin' the road.
Todd

Mary, you are correct, and I think the rich do have their "own Category" it's called the America's Cup. It's certainly not Cat Racers.

why should we punish anyone , "pro" puts money into our sport , helps develope it with out pros we lose out .look at the huge devlopement and speed of it when [censored] loads of cash was chucked at Tornado sailing, dinghy cat racing was transformed overnight .
and as for not racing against a pro , why not , Chickens or what , if you don't do it you don't learn , learning from the pros is the quickest way to learn , if you want to that is ! pros and Ams should race on the same courses ,

You know I'm just pushing your buttons.

Tshirts by Jake;

Spring Fever Regatta - last night at the party

Jake Kohl / Mark Schneider / Todd Hart

Jeeze Jake, you shaved and lost 10 years of ugly! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'll bet the wifey likes it better too! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But shouldn't that Tshirt say, "Pro Drinker"? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />