Cats for the AC it is... Alinghi must face BMW

From Yahoo Sports

Alinghi must face BMW Oracle in America's Cup

By Edith Honan 9 minutes ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Alinghi will have to defend the America's Cup against BMW Oracle after a New York judge on Tuesday threw out a request by the Swiss syndicate to reargue a court case between the two.
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BMW Oracle took Alinghi to court last year, arguing that it had chosen an illegitimate yacht club to be its main challenger and that the two had set rules that were unfairly weighted in the Swiss team's favor.

In November, New York State Supreme Court Judge Herman Cahn ruled in BMW Oracle's favor but Alinghi asked to reargue the case because it said there were flaws in the way BMW Oracle had presented its own challenge for the America's Cup, sailing's most coveted prize.

Justice Cahn said on Tuesday he would not reargue the case and refused to rule BMW Oracle's challenge invalid.

Alinghi "has not demonstrated that the court overlooked any relevant fact, misapprehended the law or otherwise mistakenly arrived at its determination," Cahn ruled.

Alinghi said the team would not appeal the ruling and proposed a race with Oracle in July 2009. The next staging of the race was due to be in Valencia, Spain next year.

STIFLING COMPETITION

The ruling means Alinghi will have to race BMW Oracle in huge catamarans with the Swiss syndicate choosing the venue.

The Alinghi crew have already been spotted practicing in catamarans off the coast of Valencia, which hosted the 32nd America's Cup.

Earlier this month, Team New Zealand joined the America's Cup legal battle, suing Alinghi and related parties for breach of contract arguing that when they signed up for the 33rd America's Cup they did so on the proviso it would be raced in 2009 in Valencia.

The Kiwis, who lost last year's Cup race to Alinghi 5-2, are also taking the Swiss to court for stifling competition when they agreed the terms of the next event with CNEV, the Spanish yacht club Justice Cahn has already ruled illegitimate.

After Alinghi and BMW Oracle face off one-on-one for the next America's Cup, other teams would only be able to get back into the racing for the 34th Cup, likely to take place in 2011 at the earliest.

Cool! Who builds such boats? Wonder if Smyth will get a ride?

AC racing in Catamarans, it won't be tactical then. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's definately happenig. I happen to know of a tornado sailor who has been hired by BMW to go teach them how to race cats.

Right at the same time they take catamarans out of the olympics! I love it....

Come on everyone, lets all take Alinghi to court....

Everyones doing it!

I am SURE my rights were infringed somehow.... and they stifled my competition...

I really believe that Alinghi was about to completely wreck the AC - are you saying that the case by Ellison wasn't justified?

not at all... i was just trying to be humorous and thought it was a sign of the times how many teams were in litigation.

hahaa..yeah, it was piling up - New Zealand never did say who was financially backing them in their case and although they denied it, I think through some back-channel Ellison financed them toward the court case to try and push the current case off-center (i.e., Cahn needs to come out with a ruling or more painful and time-consuming cases are going to come up). I bet the New Zealand case gets dropped soon.

So ok, we're going racing as soon as the legal debate over the date of the match is settled (this is going to be a bump in the road but a minor one). What kind of boats are we going to see? My early, early prediction are catamarans with center stiffening pods (that may or may not touch the water) and outer hulls with lifting foils (banana or other) and perhaps lifting foils with some sort of variable geometry. Based on what I know of current airborne foiling monsters, they really need to reach to be effective - otherwise, they're dragging a lot of hydraulics and underwater appendages.

As far as the rig goes, I think a full-on rigid wing sail is too risky...these things will have to go a long 20 miles downwind and the complication of adding downwind sails to a rigid wings are tough and risky for failure. I do think we'll see a very large chord mast with fabric sails and an array of screachers and smaller head sails working off a very solid central pod like the D35 catamarans. The big variable right now is the location of the match - will it be a light, flat, and shifty venue or a heavy, big seas, full-on venue? That part is up to Alinghi and could have considerable impact on the design parameters.

As far as the racing goes, I think someone is going to come out of the gates with an awesome machine and the other is going to be left breathing spray off the rudders and this is going to be a 3 race series decided in 2. I'm really rooting for GGYC.

I'm not. Nothing worth rooting for in Larry Ellisons team. It is all "lots of money", no interesting engineering, new concepts or even out of the box thinking. And to top it off, "money" lost in no unsignificant way last time.

Alighni is LOTS more interesting. At least they try new stuff.

Wouter

At least I know were I will spend my holiday next year - will be great to see these 90 ft monsters

And you would have first hand knowledge of the Oracle multihull???

Don't judge it till you see it. I think you will be surprised.

That is just the thing isn't it ?

Nobody has any knowlegde about it.

And as long as it isn't here we just have to go on past "achievements"

And Alighies achievements so far are alot more interesting.

A leopard doesn't change its spots.

Wouter

There are people with knowledge of the boat and I can tell you its a weapon.

I'm a bit lost as to why you think Alinghi try new stuff compared to BMWOR.. I think you will find that of the V5 boats that boat teams have built the US boats were more out there than the Swiss boats. Sure the Swiss boats proved to be quicker but in the "interesting" stakes BMWO has it won. A lot of the things tried were not in the public domain but they were quite innovative.

Also the BMWO team of today is markedly different in its makeup than that of old, so if you think the spots are the same I suggest you take a closer look.

He is not a bad A Class sailor also <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sailing Anarchy keeps talking about a giant BMW/Oracle trimaran, is it gonna be tri vs cat?

No you can't because it has not been tested against its equal rivals yet.

We had the same amount of rumours about playstation back in the day but the Ollier cats made short work of that.

Lets face it Macca you don't know either (as no-one does) and are just guessing.

But I'm ready to be surprised !



With respect to the other points :

"Sure the Swiss boats proved to be quicker ..."

I rest my case.

Wouter

The reason most people are rooting for GGYC is because of Alinghi's [censored] tactics to try and commandeer the cup for the forseeable future. It has nothing to do (at least for me) with whose boat is the most innovative.

btw. macca ftw.

Me, too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, you guys are going to have quit quoting this nonsense because I don't see it normally.

What a baseless piece of crap claim!

If we want to briefly talk about the last cup - BMW/Oracle did have the technology...they just got spanked on the water tactically and IMHO it was a result of loading up the skipper with too much team management responsibility outside of driving the boat. Their boat had plenty of speed and they proved it again and again but dug too deep a hole off the start line dig out of.

This is going to be really interesting. Ellison has pulled the plug on the financial bathtub and I guarantee you the boat coming out their shed is going to be a very well refined, thoroughly designed, monster. Likewise for Alinghi though on some level, I don't think Bertarelli cares enough anymore to plan on the same level.

I know I'm going to regret this, but can you list the "new stuff" Alinghi has used in the AC?

Yep, that was what I was told back in the days of Playstations participation in the race and Fossets "round the world but not Jules Verne certified" record. First failed to finish and the second was put back in his place by the French only months later. Almost to the letter of what I had predicted months earlier.

To me BMW-Oracle is just another obscenely rich syndicate that thinks that you can just outspend your competition and expect to come out on top. To me, that is not interesting.

Explains a large part of my disinterest in the AC as well but that is another topic.

I'll be routing for the least moneyed syndicate that has be creative and balanced in their approach to the event (and checkbook).

And I really don't care what you guys all think of that.

Wouter

HAWT!

I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But i think i need a bigger trailer too!

Call Marstrøm and order one, but you "might" need some sponsors and would probably be "branded" a pro as well. All well worth it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

nothing like flying a hull 20' in the air!



It has to be weird, using a dagger board 10' tall

Su*ks to be them huh <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had dinner in December with a member of BMWO who is now living in the PNW and Franck C has been working with the team for months, the build has been going on for some period of time in Washington and the boat will be quite interesting.

I wonder how big their "righting" bag is? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't care who you are rooting for - that's your own personal preference.

I fail to see how Playstation factors into this discussion - everyone, including Fossett, knew the boat wasn't ready for "The Race" and with regards to it not being ratified by the Jules Verne group; Fossett and his crew CHOOSE to not have it ratified because it was a couple of fat French dudes demanding he pay them $50,000 (if I remember correctly) just to apply "Jules Verne" name to his record. Technically they were supposed to pay the fee before the record attempt but the Jules Verne committee offered them another opportunity to pay up before they finished. Fossett held a vote on board the boat and it was nearly unanimous against paying the fee. Again though, what does this have to do with the current America's Cup?

How about that list of Alinghi innovations that exceeds the BMW/Oracle effort you claim was so superior?

Remember those air filled inflated battens that everyone started using? That was BMW airbag technology adapted to the boat...let's hear it.

and a Pitchpole = a trip around the world, not just the forestay

Dude - it's the America's Cup. Everybody out there (who is actually a contender) is really competing for the title of "I've got the biggest pile of money to burn" and the perceived status that goes with it - if you think any of the syndicates involved is any different you're sadly mistaken. Some are certainly more effective than others, but in the end they're all playing the "mine's bigger" game. That we get to watch a sailboat race of some kind is a side effect.

It is always satisfying to see the "under dogs" win, but they came to the game with very deep pockets too.

I laugh at the money stuff, enjoy the race, and root for the team closest to being the home team. Home team or not, I find myself rooting for whichever team falls behind in any given race and marvel when they get back in the hunt, and appreciate their effort.

Also, the Fossett thing has been beaten to death, but to compare Ellison with Fossett is not even close to being correct.

Someone will ask this question, it might as well be me.

Why not a proven design, but bigger? Pardon my ignorance, but an Extreme 40, to me, looks like a big I-20. So why not a 90' version of the same?

Boats dont scale like that Pete. Aero and hydrodynamics scale differently, and the loads scale like crazy with increased size. E.g. banana foils and foiling C cats are not fast compared to the top boats, but a foiling moth are really fast compared to a scow moth.
If you go back to the '88 challenge, the USA team buildt what might be considered a scaled up C cat for the cup. But what they really did was get the best C-cat brains and put them in a room with some really good engineers and builders (Morelli, Rutan etc). They picked the best aspects from the boats they knew and adapted this to the new platform.

Well <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. . . that's what I meant. The simplest boat should have an advantage though. More strings to pull, more strings to break. More adjustments to make, more adjustments to make poorly.

Foils. Bannana gilhickies. All stuff to get wrong and fail at the worst possible moment.

And while were in cat' ecstacy, who will be the first to blow a tack in AC competition? Who will be the first to pitch-pole?

I really, really, hope we dont see any catastrophic failures in this match. That would be really, really, bad PR for multihulls. It dont matter how many monos have broken their masts, lost their keels, folded in the middle, almost sunk when heeling over etc. No catastrophic failures please!
The mono world still have their ideas about non tactical, non safe, non tacking, non.. whatever multihulls. We want to see exciting, close and tactical racing with no failures <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think 4 (two complete sets) of high aspect dagger boards failed catastrophically last week end.

Three Points

- It would not surprise me to not see a lot of downwind sail area added to these boats. They're going to be sailing such crazy hot angles they will be developing a TON of apparent wind. Due to that, I would not be surprised to see solid wing masts.

- BMWO had TONS of speed but kept getting themselves into terrible starts. They ended up changing the rudder for better maneuverability (to get out of the piles of sh*t they were getting put into in prestart) and lost a lot of their speed. I agree with Jake it was a mistake to overload the helm with on-shore duties.

- With regards to failure, I don't know who said it, but someone said, "the best AC boat is the one that falls apart on the way back to the harbor after winning the final race". Build 'em light enough to survive till the end and that's it.

This is going to be interesting and like NOTHING any of us have seen before. I just hope it does not have the same wreched stench that last catamaran AC had.

Agree on every point but the solid wing sail. Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe they are well planning such a monster but to boost downwind speed additional headsails would be needed and I question the reliability of building such a wing vs. the speed...well...what kind of speed difference IS there between a soft and rigid wing sail? What difference did the C cats experience....man, that would be something - a 90' cat with a rigid wing...whoooo.

Well, it was enough that the AC Cat development teams of the 80's had soft and hard rigged boats... When it came time to choose they picked the bigger of the two guns. I'll have to pull my book on the subject out and see what they said a/b the decision. Was it really speed or did they just want to show off?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, think from a tech stand point... we've come a LONG way since that last AC cat.

Ben Hall was at GYC with his "Wing". I didn't notice a performance difference on Sunday. However, because of the high winds on Saturday, he left the top section off. That was slower downwind, imo.

My opinion (based on information recieved from credible sources, unlike your web opinion) is that the design is exceptional and shows a good deal of innovation compared to the current benchmark designs.

I am flying to LA tomorrow and then off to San Fran for a few weeks, but maybe I will have to keep guessing...

Interesting to us cat sailors from a technical point of view

But... what we really want is to see is a high speed, gear changing, position changing race!

The public can't really see the speed on the TV set. .. So what if they do 20 miles in an hour....

I hope that these big cats are nimble...(but don't have much hope)... I think they will be strait line speed demons.

Tack's and Gibes will be rare! Boat to Boat dueling could be very very rare... especially if one has a speed advantage.

I think the ICCC showed the potential of a match race with cats and had a decent amount of lead changes.

The VX 40's looked awesome and very nimble in the in port racing in Baltimore.

I think something on these lines would be best for our sport.

Put all teams in F18's and see who is the real winner!

They still have the pre-start manouvers to consider, and they both know that the race can be won or lost there. I think we will see plenty nimble. I just hope one team dont have a speed advantage so we get to see some real match racing.

I've used a very complicated formula to decide who to root for. I look at Woooooter's post and see who he backs, that would mean that's the a$$hat, so I then support the other.
Wouter do you practice being such a tool? I'll give you this, your consistent.

Todd

Thanks Todd, I needed a laugh!!!

I wonder if they'll have trapezes? Probably not, but six guys hanging off the side of the boat in a blow? That would be cool.

Wouldn't crashes make the AC a bit more interesting to the general puclic? I think a majority of people watch Nascar just for the wrecks. With EXTREME everything nowdays I think a small element of danger would add some appeal for alot of people.

Crashes would result in 20 secs of interest, and 20 years of backtalk about how dangerous, unseaworthy, prone to breakage etc. multihulls are. Not good.

These boats will probably have some monster winches, so they will need at least some of the crew on the grinders. Even if they use hydraulics someone will have to pump the pressure up. Will probably have wheels instead of tillers as well, so helmsman also sits in. Trapeezes would probably be a disadvantage all over for boats of this size. Slower manouvering, higher risk for messing up etc etc.

good ol PILE ON!!!! if it pitchpoled with 6 dudes on the wire
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thats kinda what I was thinking.

Could we really loose any more credit within the mono community though? They already view multi's as inferior to thier boats, what's to lose? It the general public you want to get interested. Those that still have a plyable opinion and aren't set in stone as to what they want. Obviously what we're doing isn't raking in the numbers.

Bertarelli has a LOT of success racing multi campaigns.
Naive to think he won't be up to speed so to speak.
Does not matter about the money involved here, it is all about what media coverage these races (only three) does for multi racing.

The "tactics" argument does not wash here as the last AC final saw NO tactical sense whatsoever. The NZ tactician was remedial at best.
If they can get these boats on screen in 15/20 knots televised yacht racing will never be the same.

There will be a lot of Frenchmen doing summersaults today.

Also, it is clear to me that what is really in play here is personality clashes between Lary, Ernesto, Brad and Russell.

How nasty is the split between the Kiwi pair? and how bad does Russell want to beat the "Swiss" pair?

This should wind up into a really nasty "catfight"

Coutts is launching the 70 foot class next year so he will be a happy camper at about now......but if Ernesto beats him on the water.....

annnnnd where are Ashby and Bundock today?....never mind tired old mono sailors, I know who I would be paying the big cheque to.

What is the timing relative to china?

Could the top guys pull of their campaign and do a cup campaign at the same time...

We know where the pay checks will come from.

I imagine Smyth is at the top of someone's list, eh?

I was wondering if either team had hired Randy yet... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

He was in Houston not too long ago for a project boat of a friend of mines. He also joined us at our club party. He didn't say anything then, but again, this deal was still in court too. I bet somebody is trying to snag him up.

Lets not forget also that the 88 cup was a disgrace due to a the legal battle (such as here) and second the races where not even close. That cat walked all over Bonds boat like an A cat to an Island Packet. This race of course will be cat against cat, a much fairer fight. I too am routig for BMW for two reasons. One because Bertelli has deliberatly in my opinion screwed up the AC, and secondly because I support my country in any sporting event when competeing against other countries.

/quote]

Lets not forget also that the 88 cup was a disgrace due to a the legal battle (such as here) and second the races where not even close. That cat walked all over Bonds boat like an A cat to an Island Packet. This race of course will be cat against cat, a much fairer fight. I too am routig for BMW for two reasons. One because Bertelli has deliberatly in my opinion screwed up the AC, and secondly because I support my country in any sporting event when competeing against other countries. [/quote]

Wasn't Bond it was a Kiwi and the only disgrace was that the fat guy did not turn up in a sloop and race a match. The "Big Boat" was the fastest mono around an Americas Cup course ever and represented the beginning of all of the outrageous designs we attempt today. It was a great and outrageous dream that wimps just did not turn up to.

Of course the cat won....that is why we all sail them right?

Well, this is a pretty cool birthday present!

I echo others here, let's hope this goes well and isn't seen as another waste of time before getting back to "proper" boats for the AC.

Whether or not this helps the Olympic situation remains to be seen, IMO.

Mike

Wasn't Bond it was a Kiwi and the only disgrace was that the fat guy did not turn up in a sloop and race a match. The "Big Boat" was the fastest mono around an Americas Cup course ever and represented the beginning of all of the outrageous designs we attempt today. It was a great and outrageous dream that wimps just did not turn up to.

Of course the cat won....that is why we all sail them right? [/quote]

The fat guy, as you so eloquently put it, showed up in a cat because based on the intel that they had, they thought NZ was bringing a cat also. My point as to why it was a disgrace, in my humble opinion, is because the TWO teams could not play by the spirit of the rules. While I am sure there are two sides to every story NZ certainly has some of the blame to shoulder. Having said all this, it is distant in the past where it should stay. I just hope history does not repeat itself. Also, my sincere apologies for mistakingly saying Bond instead of Fay. I meant no ill will as it was an accident. By the way, I thank NZ1 was a cool boat too. I still have a copy of a magazine with it on the cover.

The DoG match rules provide legs that stretch miles (13 to 20 miles) - speed will rule and I doubt seriously that this will be a match that trades position often.

Good point on the winches - this is why, if catamarans, they will likely have center pods (moderate air). I disagree on the wheel issue - tillers are all the rage for multihulls and/or match racing boats no matter how large.

The fat guy, as you so eloquently put it, showed up in a cat because based on the intel that they had, they thought NZ was bringing a cat also. My point as to why it was a disgrace, in my humble opinion, is because the TWO teams could not play by the spirit of the rules. While I am sure there are two sides to every story NZ certainly has some of the blame to shoulder. Having said all this, it is distant in the past where it should stay. I just hope history does not repeat itself. Also, my sincere apologies for mistakingly saying Bond instead of Fay. I meant no ill will as it was an accident. By the way, I thank NZ1 was a cool boat too. I still have a copy of a magazine with it on the cover. [/quote]

That's not what I understand. Fay's monster challenge was well known when the gauntlet was thrown and the American team, who had gotten lazy with establishing a challenger for the next cup, were purposely caught offguard with only 10 months to come up with a boat to rival Fay's monster mono-hull. I'm not real clear on the court battle about the date of the match but the Kiwi attempt was effectively an attempt to "ambush" the cup and the American team realized that, while they were cornered by the Deed, it also didn't exclude them from sailing a multihull.

Two sides to every story I suppose.

My info was based on one of Conners books. Keep mind that it was his story and he can tell it how he pleases, regardless of how accurate. My point is that 1988 was a screwed up cup and wasn't about who the better sailor was but rather, who had the better lawyers, kinda like the one now. Clearly though this is a sore subject for some people so tensions and bashing will continue to arise as they already have on this thread. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, lifes too short, lets go sail. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

At that time, (1988) I was a monohull racer, never considered cats because the only cats I had seen up close were Hobie 16's, being sailed...poorly. But when I saw what Connor was able to do to that mega-mono, with a cat half the size with less than half the crew, well, that's when I really started to consider cats might be a better way to sail.

Maybe this DoG cup will change some other mono-minds to consider cats?

You are just a serious unit Wouter. Ever thought their may be some on this forum that know a bit about sailing and even have inside information through contacts which are not available to the general public.

Back to your internet sailing Wouter. It is safer than sailing in real life isn't it.

Macca, good luck on the VX40s

Ok, then you probably do have your facts right - I thought they knew ahead of time what Fay's boat looked like.

What I don't think the American team should have done at that time is immediately go to court to contest the challenge and start all that mess and they really handled themselves poorly publicly. They screwed up and left themselves unprotected by not finding a challenger quickly after the last AC.

Dude, that's genius, take it one step further and give Larry and Ernie both an A cat and tell them to race.


Bill

Ok, then you probably do have your facts right - I thought they knew ahead of time what Fay's boat looked like.

What I don't think the American team should have done at that time is immediately go to court to contest the challenge and start all that mess and they really handled themselves poorly publicly. They screwed up and left themselves unprotected by not finding a challenger quickly after the last AC. [/quote]

The way Connor described it was that in meeting with Fay, right after the first court batttle (there were three), Fay announced the beam and water line length of the new monster yacht. Because of the yachts design with the large flair out the beam was astronomical in relation to the other dimensions. Conner was concerned that the only way that was possible was because NZ was building a cat. Keep in mind the design of NZ1 was futuristic if you will for the time. I will be the first to conceed that Conner did his fair share to screw things up by trying to use the DOG to his advantage. Fay tried to fight fire with fire by doing the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right and the whole 88 cup became a fiasco, with the cup changing hands twice in a court room. My original point is that both Fay and Conner lost sight of the spirit of the DOG and made a mochary of the whole thing.

The way Connor described it was that in meeting with Fay, right after the first court batttle (there were three), Fay announced the beam and water line length of the new monster yacht. Because of the yachts design with the large flair out the beam was astronomical in relation to the other dimensions. Conner was concerned that the only way that was possible was because NZ was building a cat. Keep in mind the design of NZ1 was futuristic if you will for the time. I will be the first to conceed that Conner did his fair share to screw things up by trying to use the DOG to his advantage. Fay tried to fight fire with fire by doing the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right and the whole 88 cup became a fiasco, with the cup changing hands twice in a court room. My original point is that both Fay and Conner lost sight of the spirit of the DOG and made a mochary of the whole thing. [/quote]

The whole thing about this challenge was the realization that within the DOG was the 90 day rule - somebody issues a challenge and you must respond in 90 days. So Fay showing up with a monster boat saying let's race was a sure bet because nobody could respond to that kind of challenge in 90 days. Connor going to court was a necessity to have any kind of race/chance, for simply no other reason than to buy time. The big screw up on Connors part was not quickly nailing down the specifics after the previous cup as was usually done to avoid this kind of thing. So going to court up front was the only real way to avoid simply handing the Cup over IMO. I don't believe that Fay ever desired a fair race or a race at all - the whole thing was designed to simply move the Cup. During the AC when the Cup was won back from AUS - after NZ was eliminated in the challenger series they threw their support and knowledge behind AUS, the defender. Tradition had been for the challengers to offer that aid to the challenger that ultimately won. When asked about this the answer was that it in their best interest because it would be easier to compete and get the Cup in AUS than in US. Logical, not traditional, and the intent was shown even then that the goal was get the Cup in any way.

The fun thing about that whole court battle was the alternating support of "tradition" and "Deed of Gift". Keep in mind that at that point tradition was to agree to time, have the challengers run off, then have the big match race. Fay's challenge was strictly Deed Of Gift - I've got a boat you must race me in 90 days.

That Connor's team looked at the Deed and saw that a cat was possible I think was a stroke of genius - certainly as outside the box as Fay's boat given the usual institutional dislike for multis, especially at the time (there is FAR more acceptance of multis now). In the end it was fight an outside of the box challenge with an outside of the box defense. Although we always talk about how it should be performance on the course that determines the winner, the reality to this kind of racing and just about any kind of racing IMO is the engineering side, how to get the edge, and if possible how to get the "unfair advantage". This even happens in OD - if manifests itself in obsessive boat prep, but it's being done to either secure an advantage or at least keep up with those that are perceived to have the advantage. In this case, both teams were engaged in the engineering for the unfair advantage to the extreme - there is no doubt that was Fay's intent, and there is no doubt it was Connor's intent in his response.

Of course, once the cat option came up and Fay was locked into his challenging design, he became all about tradition (the very thing he had been bucking all along) in the court battles. And he went to court just as hard as Connor did. Again, it was fun to watch both sides flip between tradition and DOG.

With the court case still pending, and the potential outcome coming down to the definition of the word "match" in match racing (Fay's court gambit) - the race in my mind probably didn't show anywhere near the potential of either boat. Fay's only hope was that it would be such a drubbing that the court would throw it all out and award him the Cup. Connor's hope was that he beat Fay but not by so much that the same thing would happen.

So, depending on who's side you identify with, either party in this could be the villain or the hero. There was as much (maybe more) match racing in court as there was on the water. I think both camps played both hero and villain, but for me this one of the most interesting cups, if for nothing else that two very different approaches to race boats were up front in everybody's face. Certainly the 12 meters were past their day, and the new designs for the AC boats were absolutely sped up by this little skirmish.

That court battle was about the boats, the deed, tradition. The current court battle just seems a pissing match, and few people seem to think that Bertarelli has acted in the best interest of the competition. But I'm happy it will end up in multis, at least this time. I hope they spend some attention on the boat handling aspect of things, I've always wondered what it could mean to cats were thrown into an arena that put more emphasis on the maneuverability - could be something there we can all benefit from.

Anyway, that's my take... But I'm also the person who actually enjoyed watching Penske's "stock blocks" walk away from everybody at the Indy 500...

Everybody new from day one. Connors has to live with losing it for the first time because he did not cover...what is it with match racers??! and the only reason he got it back was because he bought Bouzaid sails (kiwi) from America 2 I think and then he cheated ( called Kiwis cheats for making a Plastic 12 metre) with a cat and then told Bruce Farr he was an "F"ing loser and his boat was a dog on live TV.
A scurrilous fellow who would say anything in a book trying to make himself sound okay....One of sailings low moments...actually a whole lot of them.

Wow. Perspective certainly has an interesting affect on reality.

Absolutely not saying that you're right or wrong, but I didn't need to look at your info to know where you live... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike

I can't help but notice a pattern that has developed. While I feel both parties made mistakes, Fay supporters seem to think he is rightous and did no wrong, and that it all was Conners fault. As I said in an earlier post, the mud slinging would soon begin. But I will caution, some people are starting to sound like sore losers.

Yes, I sure am a partizan Kiwi. : )
To be clear about Fay..he is a creap. He is an "investment banker" rogue who fled the country when the law started to catch up with him and took Irish citizenship because there was no extradition treaty.

But he did initiate a wonderful challenge which dreamt big. There is so little that has a purity about it these days and that boat challenge had that.

Where did that cat defense leave the NYYC?

They are no longer even also rans at the level of AC, too weak to even turn up for the fight. Fat Boy did them no favours. Do they actually sail boats? Who would know?

Well, I can tell you first hand that NYYC has extremely active sailing programs. A quick internet search will show you that.

The folks that I've spent time with strangely have extremely low affinity for bringing the cup back. It could be that I'm not talking to the right people, but the general sense is, the cost of it now is so over the top that their efforts are better spent elsewhere.

When you think about it, $100 million can buy 100, million dollar boats. Wouldn't that be a cool thing to do every four years?

Mike

It is actually the other way around. It is the NYYC that did Conner no favours. They disowned him after he lost to Bond. On a side note, I wonder what the cup would be like today if Conner had not started using a two boat campaign that now every team uses. Just a heads up run what you brung type event. I guess that is part of why the cup stayed in the US for so long.

This picture from SA is just priceless, no A's or F18s, just two rich kids fighting it out in Optis:

Perfect, only one problem, the Opti is not big enough to hold their Ego's! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Two problems. The IODA is Category A unless special provisions are made with ISAF permission.

Sorry, I should have tried harder to resist...

Mike

America's Cup row set to go back to court Source: Reuters/Yahoo
By Mark Ledsom


BERNE, Switzerland (Reuters) - Holders Alinghi are preparing to go back to court after again failing to reach agreement with rivals BMW Oracle over the timing of the next America's Cup.

The Swiss and American teams held a meeting at Alinghi's Geneva nautical society (SNG) base on Wednesday but were unable to agree on a date for staging the one-off series ordered by a New York judge in November.

"BMW Oracle are sticking to their proposal of having the race in October 2008 while we maintain that it should not be before May 2009," Alinghi's chief legal adviser Lucien Masmejan told Reuters after the meeting.

"We are willing to have a last attempt at negotiations in the next two or three days but we will also be instructing our lawyers as it seems more likely that the matter will have to be decided in court."

New York State Supreme Court Judge Herman Cahn last week threw out a request from Alinghi that he reconsider his November ruling.

Cahn's decision recognized BMW Oracle as the legitimate challengers for the next edition of world yachting's biggest prize rather than the Spanish yacht club CNEV favored by Alinghi.

CUP RULES

Since Alinghi and BMW Oracle were unable to agree on the format of the competition they must now contest a best-of-three series as dictated in the America's Cup rules, known as the Deed of Gift.

The eventual winner will then have the right to organise the subsequent America's Cup.

Under the rules of the best-of-three series, Alinghi can choose the location of their match-up with BMW Oracle, but the American team can name the type of boat to be used.

BMW Oracle has said it will opt for large catamarans prompting Alinghi to insist on more time to design and build a boat.

The Swiss team, backed by biotechnology billionaire Ernesto Bertarelli, also claim that BMW Oracle are reneging on an informal agreement to hold the race at least 10 months after the final court ruling.

"We are in favours of racing in July 2009 and we still think that is the best time for racing in Europe," Masmejan said on Wednesday. "But we have accepted that they have the right to choose any date after May 2009.

"The fact that they are still sticking to October of this year in the full knowledge that we cannot have a boat ready in that time shows they are willing to win the Cup without any regard for how they win it or the fairness of the competition."

(Editing by Ken Ferris)

It's killing me how Alinghi refuses to come to the table on this. Frankly, I don't think they have any choice to any other date and that the courts will second that notion especially given the number of times BMW tried to offer up several date options up until the last motion by Alinghi. BMW did indicate going into these negotiations that if the date was going to move that Alinghi would have to barter with something...location of the event, parameters of the event like a max wind speed, different race series (than the three specified in the deed). Why won't Alinghi negotiate ANYTHING?

In my opinion, Alinghi is trying desperately to get the event in Valencia in 2009 to try and meet some contractual obligations they made when the boofed this whole thing up in the beginning.

Grant Dalton, of Team New Zealand had this to say yesterday:

The latest say that both teams will be using large trimarans. American boat is said to be close to completion in anacortes washington, while the swiss boat is designed and in construction in multiplast .

Anybody else see this quote?

"It is possible that Bertarelli will tell the San Francisco-based team to send a courier for the trophy as he has no intention of being bullied into a match in October."

Lol, what would that be like? "F it, you take it!"

My 2.5 year old little girl behaves better than this!
and cuter too <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Any information about the boats is welcome. We NEED to know more about them. I guess they will race on scaled up Open 60s with rigid wings, possibly with a raised central hull.

Too bad there's no time to develop a scaled up Hydroptére with a rigid wing...

ALLL that is very, very, top secret at the moment. I wouldn't expect to hear anything until we get to a point where each team is committed to a particular design philosophy...perhaps 4 months from the event?

First we have to hear the ruling from Cahn about the date - they are supposed to have a hearing next week and hopefully the ruling will follow shortly thereafter.

Unless Multiplast has moved to Switzerland, this has to be wrong.

He probably means Decision, builders of the last Alinghi IACCs.

From XSRacing:

Don't Send A Monohuller to do a Multihuller's Job





Saturday - March 29 2008 - 0830 PST - Here is a press release about Foncia being capsized today by the Alinghi Team. By the account from Ed Baird, it's obvious that Ed does not have a clue about multihulls. He describes the incident as if it was 'out of their hands' when they capsized in just over 20 knots of wind. Don't tell the multihull skippers who cross the oceans that their Open 60 tris can't stay upright in 20 knots...it may scare them from ever sailing again!

This is not the only report of multihulls capsizing with beginners at the helm. One source described the Extreme 40 capsizes like watching Lasers sailing downwind in 30 knots of wind. We have had numerous other reports from multihull 'teachers' trying to teach the monohull rock stars how to sail a multihull, with 'upside down' results. If they continue trying to teach rookie's how to sail 90-foot multihulls, this could be an exciting America's Cup after all! Here is the press release from the Alinghi Team:

Foncia capsizes off Lorient - Alinghi crew safe 2008-03-29 AT 11:30 this morning, in 20 plus knots and a lumpy Atlantic swell, the 60ft trimaran Foncia capsized off Lorient with Alinghi sailors onboard. Of the 10 crew onboard, Piet van Niekerk and Francesco Rapetti were airlifted to hospital, both are safe and with no serious injuries. The rest of the crew along with consultant Alain Gautier were involved in securing the boat and towing it ashore, the sailors are shaken but unhurt.

Ed Baird, who was onboard, provides some insight into what happened: "As we were bearing away, always the highest risk situation on a multi-hull, both the leeward and the central hull dug into the water and the rudders came out. From then it was out of our hands and we capsized forwards. As the mast hit the water, it broke, followed by the rear beam."

He continues: "The crew reacted very quickly in getting everyone back on board, doing a head count and checking injuries before calling for help and beginning to secure the boat." Foncia is currently being towed into the harbour upside down to be craned out and assessed for damage. "We have all been through crashes and capsizes before, this is all part of the sport," says Ed Baird, adding "however this is a temporary situation with Foncia and is not our equipment, so it is even more disappointing to us that we are involved in damaging someone else's gear. We have learned a valuable lesson here and now must get to work to fix things up for Alain [Gautier]."

We discussed bad PR earlier, and breaking an ORMA60 is pretty bad PR in my opinion: http://www.xsracing.org/alertdetail.php?alt_id=4345

They're sheeted in pretty hard for a bear-away move, eh? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Dude, it was out of their hands.... literally.

I love it....

Great picture John! While the rudders were out of the water I wonder what would have happened if the sheets had been released as soon as it started to stuff. Perhaps it would not have dug in hard enough to pitch over.

This reminds me of a great tale about Dennis Connor capsizing the stars and stripes multihull with a bunch of folk on board as he cut his multihull teeth for "that" Americas cup.

Chris.

A couple of things. First he said it was out of his hands after the rudders were out. This is a fair enough insight but to bear away and not trim BEFORE stuffing was a probability is a newbie mistake.

The idea these guys are going to try and get mono sailors up to speed so to speak defies any common sense.
It is like taking a rally driver and putting him into a Formula one car and asking him to compete with drivers who have been in the cars for years.

The technical term for that I think is STUPID.

It just shows the astonishing arrogance of the mono guys.

I can just see them trying to come down late when they realize they won't go across the top of a starboard boat, accelerating but not being able to get it to answer the helm enough and slicing right through the starboard boat! Excellent TV indeed!

I hadn't really pondered it before - but you're absolutely right. These guys are crazy if they think the monohull skippers who are used to having tons of lead under them are going to be able to seamlessly transition to boats as light, nimble, overpowered, and unforgiving as multi-hulls. Clearly in this case, the sails weren't eased enough for a bare-away manuever...we've all probably been there and done that a time or two on our relatively tiny personal multi-hull monsters.

So who do you get that can drive you beast around the course and be as fast or faster than anyone out of the box? (Smyth/Booth/me/etc.)

So who do you get that can drive you beast around the course and be as fast or faster than anyone out of the box? (Smyth/Booth/me/etc.)

It looks like Jake is wanting a new job <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know, I am relatively busy, but if they want me, I could probably rearrange my schedule. It would be difficult but I'd help them out, no problem. Anything for my country and all that...
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Say Rick, have they contacted you for a clinic session yet?

Start 'em out on Waves, move 'em up as they progress!

Seriously, though, Alinghi should have quite a bit of multi guys to help out, given their Lake Geneva campaign. But that seems to be very light air flat water with boats that are optimized heavily for just that set of conditions. So maybe they thought they had more of a handle on it for the lumpy stuff in a big tri - it's usually when you're a nooby but think you're not that the problems hit. I'm not sure if releasing the sails once it's stuffed like would help - the jib might help as you can release it far enough. But the main is the evil sail in this scenario - it's the big sail trying to leverage you end over end, and you can't always release it far enough to save yourself.

The best way to stay out of trouble is to not start out there.

Given the money being spent and the prestige at stake, starting with the basics might be prudent.

Someone needs to remind them a slower, more carefull bare away is faster than swimming...Still, these Alinghi guys do race cats, right? They should know better.

Who was driving? Who was on the traveler and mainsheet? How much insurance do they carry? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps they need some of the solo Tri skippers out there to teach them how it's done? I'm guessing the big Tri's don't behave -exactly- like big cats. Maybe they should hire Ellen McArthur? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There's an idea! What if she won!?

Yeah, but blazing across oceans is different that the refined requirements for being fast around a race course.

True that, but how many big Tri's race buoys? I don't know if the French do that or just go for speed.

Still, I'm sure Ellen could teach these mono-clowns a thing or two about sailing big Tri's. I'm sure she's had to do more than a few quick bear-offs, alone, at night, in the big ocean. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I am trying to exercise restraint and not make fun of them too much.. you know, that very unsatisfying "lets not be reduced to their level" in how they make fun of us attitude.
Altough I do love it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While the ORMA60 circuit was operative they ran both inshore buyou races and offshore races, so yes, they sure know how to operate the beast in tight "beer can" racing.


Not to diminish Ellen, but I dont think she is the most experienced inshore multihull racer. When going around the globe, they dont do as many manouvers as when going around the cans. A jibe or a tack a day, perhaps more often if they are really working hard?
I would be very surprised if not both Alinghi and BMWO have signed up the best from the Tornado fleet and the ORMA60 fleet. Hmm, perhaps that is one more reason for Alinghi to postpone the race, to have more time with the best teams on the water. The olympians are probably focusing 100% on the games now and dont want to loose 4 years "just" to get into an AC one-off match.

I think all the sailors have already been chosen for the Olympics, and there are lots of awesome catamaran sailors who did not make the final cut in their countries. So all those people should be available.

I was just thinking racing a big tri around the cans is maybe a little different than racing a cat around the cans, especially when it comes to bearing off at A mark. A cat will have two hulls, each has to support the entire wt. of the cat sailing on one hull.

The Tri, on the other hand, is going to be a little heavier per same length, and most likely have smaller ama's with less displacement, so when you do a quick bear-off at A mark, you are pushing the smaller ama (vs. one hull of a cat) down and under water. If you have a cat driver who is used to pushing a fatter hull down harder, and all of a sudden he is on a tri, well, maybe that's what happened.
But that is just a guess, unless we were on board to see exactly what was going on, we will never know exactly what -or who- caused it.

I don't think you can adequately train a mono-racer to top level trimaran buoy racer in less than a full year of hard buoy racing though.

I'll be Randy wouldn't have flipped it... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know for fact there are people helping that will also be at the olympics.

Well that's hardly a secret is it?

I am a bit surprised that this happened to team Alingy since IMHO they have a lot more multihull experience in-house (Luc Dubois, 4th at the latest A-cat worlds. Their Decision 35 program etc).
Maybe the guys from Alingy did it on purpose so to show the judge that they really are not ready to race in October '08 (They are not that evil are they?).

Alinghi cat
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1114817499044983535josJOb?vhost=sports
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1114817180044983535RIadxk?vhost=sports

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/sail/racing/sailRACE.php?WEBYEP_DI=3
They also have a fair amount of Tri experience as this one that Pete Melvin and Gino Morelli designed.

I didn't know if it was or wasn't. Man that is a bitchin boat. Can I have one?

That thing really bridges the gap between a catamaran and a trimaran...it's really a catamaran with a center stiffening pod that's not really designed to be in the water. The pod helps get some really high forestay tension for weather work.

Looks like Oracle just lost a VX40 rig :P

Ouch...
From SA:


"BMW/Oracle can't quite get it right either - here they blow the rig out of a new X 40 last weekend in Valencia. Apparently they stuffed the boat into a wave and dropped the rig. Here they cut the rig away and send it to the bottom of the sea. Here's a quote from one of the team members: "Sailing in Valencia last week in a new X40 cat and the front beam snapped in half and dropped the rig. We saved the boat but the tow back 4 miles to port in 40 mph winds was gay."

The Morelli&Melvin boat looks very similar to "Happycalopse", is it the same boat?


Bummer about the BMWO X40! Large amount of damage in short time now. Wonder how much was boat/structure and how much was handling on the last case.. Who was manning the boat?

Is anyone else absolutely horrified that they would let the sail and mast go to the bottom? I can't fathom why, when they have support boats all 'round, they can't salvage the materials for other uses or to look it over carefully to determine why it failed. I'm stunned - no wonder the budgets are absurd. Everything is disposable.

Absolutely horrific! That is wrong on a lot of levels... but just shows how much money is being thrown around. How much do you think that was? Easiliy 40-50K I would think.

Not to mention the fine for littering.

It says in the article that the front beam snapped, but in the pictures it clearly shows its still there (Can you tow a cat in 40kt winds without a front beam anyway?). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And in this picture the mastbase seems to be pointing out of the water and being towed upwind (to shore), looks like it is mounted on something (top of a RIB maybe?).
They may have deep pockets but they're not idiots.

Agree, Tony - the early reports just don't square with the pics. I guess we'll have to wait for a press release or a blog like we did with Foncia.

Wonder how long it took them to figure out that towing a cat with the rudders up is a PITA? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

That pic looks like it is showing the rear beam with the rudders up. You can see the hulls twisting too.

IIRC their 40 has black rudder blades.

I see you guys are reading the AC forum as well.
According to the Windguru archive there was absolutely no wind last weekend...
With tomorrows date in mind, better double check anything you read. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

With regards to the rig being lost.

IF the mast was damaged it may have been unusable. As light as these are built, they are probably easily damaged. They would not be able to determine how damaged it was while at sea and some of the defects may not have ever been noticeable till the mast failed later.

Keeping that in mind, how much does a set of those hulls cost? I'm sure the mast could not have been loaded onto a Rib for a 40 mile (!!) ride back to the harbor. So... where would they have had to put it? What if the now damaged and useless mast damaged the platform further while being transported and made it a lost cause as well? I suspect the decision to leave the rig was a calculated gamble to save the boat from further damage. I've been towed and have towed I20's and other boats that have dismasted and just that little mast is a beast to secure. I'm sure the VX40 mast would be even worse especially in those seas over that distance. IMHO

This picture also shows the mast on what appears to be the tow boat? What gives?

That's a moderately angry looking seaway.

Hmmmph! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> multihulls...if you can't beat 'em...destroy 'em

C;mon guys! Check that last photo! You would have to get the sail down to save the rig. Which one of you thinks you could do that in that sea?!
After the rig had that kind of impact would you then put it back together and risk the AC on it?
Surely the stupid choice these photos speak to is that they were sailing in 40 knots. It is not like the cup will be raced in anything like that.

And in the end.

50K.......they blow a couple of spinnies and that is gone in the monos. These boats cost nothing compared with the budgets they have had.

BTW anyone notice the second cat flipped out in the first photo?

These cant be the same boat (in both pictures)

They're not. The tri is Alingi and the VX40 is BMW-Oracle.

Looks to me like they are towing the boat backwards and you can see the front beam dragging in the water. The front beam looks like it is attached to the starboard hull and angled down into the water. The hulls at the front also are not on the same plane.

[/quote]

Go back to SA and read the corrected story guys.

Its not BWMO and the mast was saved.

Does anyone have the story here so I don't have to go "there"?

From SA -

"We thought this was BMW/Oracle, but it looks like our source was a little confused about the ownership of the Extreme 40 that we reported on this morning. An X-40 did break its rig and forward crossbeam more than a week ago, but it wasn't BMW/Oracle. The brand new boat is owned by +1 Racing/Team Draper - a British iShares team. That is indeed a BMW tender helping out, but not their cat. The beam broke during a training session against the U.S. team, and was towed to shore along with their rig. No one was injured. Apparently this is the second crossbeam broken on the new boat in just a few weeks. Our bad."

The price for an vx-40
•Boat price € 359.500,- price is ex vat.
Just incase you were wondering

Hey Rich, If you're going to buy one You'll need crew, I'm just over the hills in Redding!! Hope you plan on attending the Whiskeytown Sailing Clubs "2008 Whiskeytown Regatta" Memorial day weekend.

hmmmmmmmmm memorial day is open on my calender. Maybe i should take the tiger out there for a spin. Hopefully shawn and wes will be there too.

Cool,
NOR is at http://www.whiskeytownsailing.org/2008_whiskeytown_regatta.htm. Hope to see you all there.
Ryan,
Whiskeytown Sailing Club
Webmaster

The reason for the breakage of the beam was a glitch in the communication when they transferred the manufacturing of the beams from France to Marstrom. The new beams wasn't built strong enough. New beams are being built right now and the damaged VX40 will be transferred to Marstrom in a couple of days for repair.

/hakan

Thats a hell of a glitch seeing as someone could have been killed. Not to mention the cost factors involved.