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Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please tak

Posted By: Hogshead

Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please tak - 03/21/08 01:32 AM

Maybe it is the cost, certainly not the desire to compete, but there is definitely a reluctance to commit. Maybe it is that old issue of convincing the other half that another race is the best thing to do. Race organizers only publish a NOR and then sit back and wait for race day. They certainly do not have to keep the boat clean, replace worn or broken hardware or practice and hone their skills. They may not have to talk mama into another weekend near the water, with nothing to do but watch the kids. They do not have to come up with the funds to pay the entry fee or repair the boat. Sailors do have the rough time in just getting to the race, hooking up the trailer, making sure nothing is left behind, finding ground crew for distance races, paying more than $3 for gas and the hotels do cost so much.

Maybe race organizers just need to understand that chasing down the trophies, purchasing liability insurance, establishing the venue, organizing and training the race committee, getting the paraphernalia to manage a race, and setting up enjoyable social functions for sailors and family, finding, negotiating hotel rates, finding sponsors, and etc., etc., just is not important, time consuming or expensive. Just why in the world would the race organizer want early commitment to race or at least notification of intent? It’s just not reasonable, right? Just quit worrying that no one will show up. But even race organizers do have to put in extra time, get there early, write and publish sailing instructions, make an extra early trip or two and be ready to eat the cost if no one does show up.
Posted By: writer

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please tak - 03/21/08 01:58 AM

I raced for many years. (First trophy 1953) Now I do RC work mostly. I'd say that before an event where I'm the PRO there is just about as much preparation as when racing an FD, A-Cat or F16. A difference is that if I goof up a race, sail the wrong course, go through the finish line before the prescribed number of laps or capsize (we've done all of this, once in one race!) it is just me that is embarassed. When running a team that is staging a race, there are many crews that are affected by any bad moves. I get just as 'tight' during a count down to a start when on the RC boat as I do with a 100-boat Laser start.
The one good thing about RC duty is that I don't have to pay the high and accellerating entry fees. When I do race it is as crew, again due to the expense.
Dave Ellis
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please tak - 03/21/08 02:38 AM

I can tell your planning and organizing the 2007 F18 NA's would have been alot easier if we knew how many were coming. We even found it difficult to negotiate hotel prices with out being able to give a head count. In the end it went well. We planned for more than we had, net result, we wasted a little money, but I would rather do that than run out of food at say the awards banquet.
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 11:45 AM

Been there, seen it, done it. Complete with evening entertainment and a virtual no show. Also here in the UK we have fuel at $9/gallon(US), so I'm sorry but little sympathy on that score. Sailors tend to look at the weather forecast before committing and choose between fewer select events.

Cheshirecatman
Posted By: tami

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 01:21 PM

While that is true, as organisers, our job is to try to work out imaginative ways to keep our costs low whilst giving perks. Then, should the turnout be low, we can absorb that financial hit and be able to offer the race again next year.

Cheap homemade or low-cost knickknack trophies
home cooked food, or sponsored food and drink
One or two-color Tshirts
Lots and lots of prior legwork getting sponsorship, which means something to put in the goodie-bags, we never get money
VOLUNTEERS, and try to keep them happy as possible
Posted By: brucat

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 01:47 PM

It's about paradigms.

Cat sailors are used to not having to pre-register for weekend regattas, and we're used to low-cost regattas ($50 for a weekend of racing for a two-person boat is cheap).

YCs and mono events almost always require pre-registration for events, and they charge a lot more (say $100 for a weekend Opti event).

Until it becomes common practice to require pre-registration across most of our events, this won't change. A case can be made that we can't afford to do this if there is a chance it will reduce turnout any further; an equal case can be made that we will run out of venues if we hit fleets with more money-losing events.

Mike
Posted By: Mary

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 02:34 PM

I know I'm VERY old-fashioned (read OLD), but when I go to a regatta, I don't care about t-shirts or giveaways, and I don't expect the entry fee to include food or free beer. I just want a venue and a race committee to put on good races. Why do we have to bribe people with all these perqs? Either you want to come to race or you don't.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 02:37 PM

Quote
A case can be made that we can't afford to do this if there is a chance it will reduce turnout any further;
Are you saying pre-registration will potentially turn people off? I'm currently trying to encourage people to do so for our upcoming event with some luck. I wonder to myself if there's a fine line, I'm in jeopardy of crossing, (pissing people off) by harping on the pre-reg. We considered offering a pre-reg discount, but if you're guessing at totals to begin with, how do you figure a discount?

I fully understand there's people that sail every event regardless of forescasts, and then there's the fair weather group. I can only hope pre-reg becomes common place in our world.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 03:31 PM

Pre-registration is the norm at CRAW - and there is a regatta discount to encourage that. And speaking for myself I find it much more convenient to be able to use paypal from home than worry about paying at the regatta site. And I like to see who else is coming too.

However, I would say attendance at CRAW regattas is pretty strong and fairly consistent from event to event, which I put down to two things - (i) events are not so frequent that people would want to miss one - with so much invested in our boats and with the season being relatively constrained I think people are strongly motivated to show up, and (ii) the friendships in the group are well-established and strong, and people are very friendly towards newcomers, which again I think creates positive motivation towards attendance.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 03:40 PM

I understand Mary's points, but look at how many people have t-shirts and other colectables in the "Memorabilia... whattya got?" forum... people love that stuff (myself included).

Heck, I have a 20 year old t-shirt from a race. This was from when I was in the USN stationed in Crete Greece that all the bar-maids and friends signed. I still look at it and remember great times.

And beer???? ... ummmm.... goes hand in hand with.... ummmmm... drinking??? lol, just kidding (i don't even drink) but it is a nice perk to have all the racers sitting around a table with a hotdog and beer (or tea) afterwords.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 04:39 PM

The free food, beer and T-shirts definitely help, especially with the cost of gas, etc. The trouble is, most cat sailors don't think like Mary or mono sailors, they want to "see" something that they're getting for their money.

OK, the REAL problem is, many of these folks have never helped put together an event, or not in a very long time, so they have absolutely no appreciation for the real costs and headaches associated with putting it together. Otherwise, they'd register way in advance and send in extra money...

John, yes that's exactly what I was saying. The danger of a late fee (in reality, that's what an early discount is) is that if people didn't pre-register, that's one MORE reason not to come if the weather forecast is bad, or they don't have crew, etc. Some of us will go no matter what (I can't count how many regattas I've attended with no crew and in the pouring rain), but we're a rare breed.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 05:32 PM

I haven't been sailing very long, but I don't think I've missed a regatta yet because of unfavorable weather. Which is probably the biggest deterent for most people. Or at least with fuel pricing being so high they are less likely to go if they aren't sure they'll be racing. I've made alot of friends through sailing and whether or not the weather is good I still go to hang out with the people.

How many miles a year does the typical beach cat sailor travel? Its gotta be huge. Just a guess, but I bet last year I drove close to 4000 miles to get to regatta's. Including getting to NY for NA's. That's alot of expense. To me sailing is fun, but it doesn't really come into its own until racing.
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 05:54 PM

I happen to agree with Mary. Make the race fee small and then have optional costs for beer tickets, BBQ, T-shirts, etc. If I want the other stuff, I will buy it. I enjoy the social part but first and foremost I want to go fast while racing other cats.
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 06:10 PM

The Madcatter has done very well over the years.
I would say that it is a great place to come and pay a small fee for lots of food, free beer, rums squalls, good music,free t-shirts and lots of trophies were an occasional sail boat race breaks out between parties.
People don't come to Syracuse in May for warm weather or water. We can have some of the best racing available if the weather does cooperate.
Don't under estimate the importance of the social scene and give aways.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 06:32 PM

Pat,

I know in the past you have sold advertising in a publication to be distributed at the event? Has this continued to be your primary means of reducing costs? What was the double handed entry fee last year?
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 07:01 PM

We sell ads, find sponsors for specific things, have raffles, work with the local Hobie dealer.
This year double hand boat is $40. Probably the same last year.
Posted By: palmwolfe

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 08:07 PM

A few answers for you; first remember many cats are up at Spring fever this weekend, so you may want to bump this post up next week.

There are not enough weekends in a month, the weekend of your race is also the Alter Cup and the Tampa Regatta. That takes up most of the traveling racers right there.

If you just want die-hard racers you probably don't need food, beer and prizes but I think if you want to attract new sailors you need these things.

Also need to keep in mind that a lot of sailors do not surf the web at all so those ones would not preregister, I do preregister as I know it helps greatly with the planning.

There are so many regattas on the schedule that we cannot possibly afford to do all of them, when I choose which ones I also look at the venue for things that the rest of the family would like, ex. beach, pool, BMX ramps! I think this would not pertain to all racers depending on age, family status etc... I sometimes travel without the family.

We know that Race organizers put in a lot of hours, we thank you for that.
Posted By: warbird

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 08:21 PM

Quote
I know I'm VERY old-fashioned (read OLD), but when I go to a regatta, I don't care about t-shirts or giveaways, and I don't expect the entry fee to include food or free beer. I just want a venue and a race committee to put on good races. Why do we have to bribe people with all these perqs? Either you want to come to race or you don't.


Sailing is just that for me. I don't care about anything but my boat, weather conditions, fellowship on the water and good music for the road.....and if there is no fellowship, that's okay too.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 08:25 PM

Quote
.....and if there is no fellowship, that's okay too.


WOW! I've never understood this. I've seen it with big-boat races, where they meet at a buoy and there's a starting line waiting for them, but WOW... no club, no party, trophies at the end of the year... what's the fun in that???

Mike
Posted By: mike220

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 08:36 PM

Myself I prefer the pre-registration. It is even beter when it can be done online and I can pay online via credit card or Pay Pal.

Much easier.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 08:57 PM

Quote
Myself I prefer the pre-registration. It is even beter when it can be done online and I can pay online via credit card or Pay Pal.

Much easier.


Agree. Plus it is much better for planning committee to know how to plan for event. BUT I also agree with Mary, have a no frills cost and let people add what they want to. We might get more people that way. I know I am on a tough budget right now.

Doug
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 09:18 PM

Quote
Quote
Myself I prefer the pre-registration. It is even beter when it can be done online and I can pay online via credit card or Pay Pal.

Much easier.


Agree. Plus it is much better for planning committee to know how to plan for event. BUT I also agree with Mary, have a no frills cost and let people add what the want to. We might get more people that way. I know I am on a tough budget right now.

Doug


Bingo.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/21/08 11:30 PM

I saw you at an AA meeting.

Attached picture 139030-beerbabes72.jpg
Posted By: Hogshead

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please tak - 03/22/08 08:02 AM

Thanks to all for understanding. I have read the responses and feel that I am talking to the choir. I agree that cost should be held down and Mary, I like simple things but we all apply RRS and now it looks as though the new rules will deal with a requirement that at a any thing higher than a club level race, membership in US Sailing will be required to race, if the SI's state that RRS are in effect. I would like very much to just have everyone just show up and go race. But, in this day and age you must protect the sponsors with insurance. Insurance starts at $500 per and goes up from there. Events without insurance exposes sponsors and organizers to unbearable liability, where sponsors will not participate. The social events are nice and I guess it is a bribe to get those to attend at least an early registration session, just like tradewinds and steeple chase. We'll just keep on, keeping on I guess, and when we burn out we will just quit. It is really great to be on the water and see all the sails pressing for a start line or straining to see a distance racer come over the horizen, headed to a beach. Sailing is one of the great sports just by beating some of the cost without buying fuel for a stink pot. Can you even imagine what the fuel bills were for those cigaret type boats that cut through the A-Cat worlds course last November? Give me sails any day. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/22/08 06:21 PM

Ok guys here is my rant

I have raced "Cats" for 25yrs in all sorts of races/formats ...beach starts, bouys, and distance races. Currently I am Vice-Commedore of organizing A "HOBIE POINTS" Regetta at my Yacht Club and am doing the planning for this event and also a "OPEN" Cat Start in the club's "annual One-Design Regetta. It is ALOT of work believe me and we want to put on a "topshelf" event. Sometimes I am wondering what exactly did I get myself into!!!

All food/beverags must be odered by Wedsday afternoon for delivery on Thurs/Fri so our Chef can start preparing food. (we do not want to do FROZEN BURGERS PATTIES...) So how do we do it with out a "head count". Last year another class of boats asked my club to "host" their East Coast Masters Regetta telling us that the boat count would be 75-85 boats ... 35 showed. Joe, our chef, had prepared food for 100+ people ... he served slightly less then 50 poeple.

Yacht Clubs and fleets do not have deep pockets and are not "profit centers" out to make $$$$'s. So is it fair to them to have to assume this type of risk. Would you do this to your Mother/wife and at the last moment; "Honey I 've just invited a crowd over for dinner w/o notice.

Having been a cook I can tell you it is not an easy thing to feed a huge crowd w/o notice.

I didn't even bring up the topic of "TROPHIES" (how many???)

So we have to ask ourselves what is fair to the people/organizations that host our regettas out of the kindness of their hearts.

Also, sometimes it taks upwards of an 1/2 to register on site ... I'm notorious for being late for the first start, so what do you think it is worth to me to have that extra 1/2 hours to get my boat together? And do not forget all the extra volunteers needed to "man" the registration tables and input the data into the scoring programs at the last minute ....

More simply and bluntly:
YOU LAZYNESS (and/or) PROCRASTINATION IS CAUSING ALOT OF OTHER PEOPLE MAJOR AMOUNTS OF EXTRA WORK AND POSSIBLY MANY $$$$$!!!

Pre-registration will and must become manditory.

Please note that I'm a "CASH" kind of guy, hate creditcards and am not much of a computer guy ... but REGUIRED Pre-registration is coming very soon

OH, we will not turn anyone away that shows up but there will be a "LATE FEE", ( which I propose to donate to the Junior Sailing Programs).

HarryMurphey
H18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19mx w/spin /#86, CRAC
ROCK HALL YC: Vice Commedore of Catamaran Class

ps; I'm a highly ranked ameutur procrastinator ... I'll turn proffesional someday when I have the time to file the required forms ....
Posted By: brucat

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/24/08 01:47 AM

Harry,

The Youth donation idea is absolutely brilliant. I'd like to see this happen everywhere, for all of the reasons you've given.

For clubs/fleets without a Youth program, you can always send the money to the HCA Youth program or the USSA MHC Youth Program.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/25/08 02:56 PM

There is pre registration and pre registration with payment!

Spring Fever asks that you pre register. So 100 boats pre register... 80 show up.... That's a LOT of extra food to throw away!

Pre registration systems help you set up your scoring program and your fleet starts. You are still left with a rough guess as to the final turnout... The crystal ball approach sucks.

Pre registration and pre payment do a lot more for the club.
The club knows that if you have pre-payed... you are committed to going. It's like buying a ticket to a Broadway show, the curtain opens at 8.05 .... if you don't like the weather...no problem... you simply miss the show. Most of us make it to the show!

A company, regatta manager, will set up your event and tap you 7 % overhead for the service. People have NO PROBLEM paying ticket master the surcharge for concert tickets... Why should a regatta surcharge be different.

You can always pay the 20 on site registration fee if you simply can't plan ahead.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/25/08 04:00 PM

Pre-registration without payment is an oxymoron...

Right up there with "Fixin to get ready" except not as funny...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/25/08 04:14 PM

Well, I agree with you but...

Lots of clubs simply don't want to ask people to really commit to the event. Recent examples are
Spring Fever
Gulfport
Tradewinds
Lots of the Florida Regattas using the free registration applet.

I can understand the half measure if the regatta was just about racing. no food to purchase, no give aways to buy, simple trophies and a track record for a turnout of the usual suspects. The club members might be willing to sit out on the RC boat in lousy weather for the few sailors who do show up.... IMO this is a recipe for slow death. If it works for them... OK...

My view is that Clubs are NOT SELLING A REGATTA SERVICE...

Clubs are part of the sailing community's joint effort to create a vibrant regatta circuit. Every organization and individual must pitch in and do their part. No excuses.. no avoiding your responsibility.
Posted By: dsltrc

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/25/08 08:04 PM

hobiefleet32 has started an insentive program... something like if you prereg. and prepay you get 5.00 off or extra tickets to for the raffle at the party....
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/26/08 12:28 AM

Thanks for the support guys. Our budget is so tight that I can't really give discounts ... but I do like the raffle ticket idea ... now how can I work that in ???

Oh, I have (1)person already pre-registered for the "Hobie" event at Rock Hall YC even though we haven't posted a NOR yet or put on-line regerstration "up". I don't know who it is but ... a beverage of their choice will be awaiting them!!!(maybe several!!!)

HarryMurphey
H18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19mx w/spin /#86, CRAC
Vice-Commodore Rock Hall YC: Catamaran Class
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: Sailors, a conundrum for consideration, please - 03/26/08 12:59 AM

Harry,

The secret to the raffle is getting your local shop and or Hobie or Performance to donate goodies for this purpose. You round up a bunch of little things like coozies and hats and then have one big thing like a harness and you sell raffle tickets. The cost of the ticket depends on the value of the raffle. Our experience here has been that you will gross alot more at a buck a piece then you will at five dollars a piece. The raffle has saved the day for us a few times when comes to offsetting expenses at a regatta. As for the discount, make the discounted price your regular price and the late registration 5 or 10 dollars more. In the end you are not lowering your income, but instead raising it from the procrastinators, and you will also reduce your expenses as you will have a better feel for a head count and thus will not overspend on perishables that go to waste.
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