Optis, multihull alternative? (opti-killer)

Hi maybe it's just me but I can't stand optimist sailboats. Maybe it's the sawn-off boxy look. I don't know. Ever since I was aware of cats and tri's I've wondered if there was a viable multihull alternative.
I would love for my son (now 3) to learn to sail on a real boat. I mean a multihull of course.

Do any of you have an idea what boat would be the perfect Opti-killer?

Dennis

Check out the F12 forum.

Optis fill an important roll in youth Sailing, Introduction to the basics. After that,go forth and mutiply!

People are probably sick of me promoting Optis, but I still think it is the best possible boat for young kids to learn in. There are many reasons why it is the best choice.

1. They are everywhere. Most yacht clubs use them for their junior sailing programs.
2. The kids can learn best in an environment with a bunch of other kids instead of having adults involved.
3. MOST IMPORTANT is that an 8-year-old can sail an Optimist Dinghy by himself or herself, which gives them a feeling of power and control.
4. It is much easier to learn on a monohull than on a multihull, because a monohull gives you instant feedback (like heeling in a little puff of wind).
5. A monohull usually gives you better feel of the helm.
6. Optimist regattas are the largest in the world in the terms of boats that attend.
7. Because of the type of sail plan, Optis can go out in bigger winds and seas than most of us would venture out in on our "adult" boats, and this adds to the kids' confidence (while it scares the parents).
8. Many of the best sailors in the world, both monohull and multihull, started out in Optimists or Sabots or similar. This includes Randy Smyth and Hobie Alter Jr.
9. If your child starts out on an Optimist Dinghy, after they learn how to sail and how to control a boat in a variety of conditions, that child will be much more likely to be impressed by a multihull that goes faster. It will give them something to aspire to when they get a little older and start getting bored with the Opti.
10. It's too bad Optis are too small for most adults to learn to sail in them. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Reason for NOT getting your child into Optis: If your child likes racing, you are going to have to give up your own racing for maybe years to take your child to Opti regattas. Most catamaran sailors are not willing to make that sacrifice. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I cannot think of any reason to NOT start a child in an Optimist -- well, unless the parent is so prejudiced against monohulls that he/she cannot be properly supportive to, primarily, get the kid interested in sailing with a group of their peers, and secondarily and later, to get the kid (and maybe his peers, as well) interested in switching to a catamaran.

Well, anyway, that's what I would do for my grandchildren, if they lived near a yacht club with a junior sailing program.

hmmmmm.

Yeah, Warbird. That's what I'm talking about. These kids really learn how to sail in big conditions. It's great!

I'd say the Sunfish is a good alternative. You can flip it and right it easily.

Especially the "flip it" part! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Look at the mainsail and wind direction in that photo! The Opti was surfing downhill so fast the main was actually a speed brake! Yee Ha! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

mmmhmmm

I used to flip it for fun and step on the daggerboard. Then right it and step back inside. Didn't even get wet.

OK. I'd be a bit nervous in this scenario:


That wave looks like its going to break all over that kid.

If those pics are real, and the kids are from the US, we need them on Hobie 16s, so we can start winning the Worlds again!!! Talk about balls of bleeping steel...

Mike

That kid's from Argentina I think...

Is there a difference between an opti and a sabot? Lots of sabots around here for the kids.

Pretty similar, different rigs -

Sabot

Optimist

I dont like the term "opti killer", it is a negative term which reflects badly back on ourself (catsailors).


For the kids I like the F12 designs coming up now. Gato is building one of Scarecrows F12 designs, while Phil Brander have a different 12 footer in the works: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Test&Number=126046

Visit the F12 forum or the Builders forum on this site to see what Gato is doing.

The difference is that the sprit sail rig on the Opti allows it to adapt/adjust to a wide variety of wind conditions, sort of like you can do with the gaff rig on the Sunfish.

That's another neat thing about learning in the Opti: The kids learn to bail while they sail. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And both are valuable skills if they get a big boat someday. I'm not kidding. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

If I'm not mistaken, a Sabot has a lee board and an Opti has a huge dagger. In Northern California, they sail a boat called an El Toro, very similar to an Opti. Lot's of variants, but the Opti reigns king!

You're right, the Sabot has a leeboard that you switch from side to side.

The Bic O'Pen is I think the best alternative to the Optimist if you don't have an Optimist program locally or your kid does not like Optimists. We have both at our club and when it is windy, it's the kids on the Bic's who are having the most fun because the boat is self rescuing, very easy to right, and self bailing. It's also faster and looks cooler. You can run into a dock and not hurt it.

Not knocking the Optimist but it's long in the tooth and the Bic is a refreshing alternate. The same thing is happening with the 29er versus 420. The 29er is faster, cooler, and can be sailed with a wider weight range but it is more expensive.

I like the F12 designs too, but I thought the Wave was going to fill the gap and be the cat equivelent of the Laser 4.7 for kids coming out of the Opti.

Back when the Wave first came out, (1996?) Sail Magazine did a test with lots of kids and some small new mono dinghys, and a Wave. All the kids said they liked the Wave better than any of the mono dinghys for two reasons: 1. It was faster and they could maybe fly a hull. 2. They had room to bring a friend or two.

My kids hated the Opti I bought them because there was no room for another kid. I traded it to another Dad for a Hobie 14, added the trap wire and the kids would sail it two up, but it was hard for them to tack. So I taught them to only jibe it when they wanted to turn around and sail home.

I think a new Wave is pretty expensive these days even by new, full race $3,000+ Opti standards. I saw one for sale on my lake a while back, it was fairly, had the backrests, trailor, etc. the guy wanted $4,500 for it! He said he paid $6,000 for it! OUCH! For a Wave? Can that be right, with the trailor and backrests?

The fact that you can put an Opti on top of a Volvo wagon or BMW is what sells them more than the Wave I think, oh, and they have a great world wide organizatoin and most USA yacht clubs use them for their junior programs vs. a Wave.

I have great memories sailing Optimists when I was 11. Pure fun, particularly in company of other friends of the same age, on more Optimists. Sailing monohulls is great too, they have a unique mystic, my best sailing memories are on monohulls. And I certainly enjoy cat sailing. But why the pointless comparisons? the kind of boat is not what makes the real difference.

We're cat sailors, not mono sailors, so naturally, we want our kids to sail cats.

But, it's hard to beat this (from Scuttlebutt):

The Garda Easter Meeting, already in the record books as the biggest single-Optimist Class event in the world, has this year moved up several gears to record an entry of 999 Optimists from 29 countries. The logistics are incredible. Three race courses run five simultaneous races, three for the 866 under-16 "Juniors" and two with shorter races for the 133 11- and 12-year old "Cadets". As well as the three race-committee teams, over 200 support boats, each because of local law with a qualified driver and tightly controlled crew, are involved. --
http://lakegardameeting.fragliavelariva.it/

It's one of the many reasons I race a Hobie 16 although I've surpassed the weight limit years ago. There's power in numbers...

Mike

Nope, it's fixed on the starboard side. You learn to sail assymetrically on different tacks.

I have seen a sabot with a dagger; two different classes?

Yes, there is power in numbers. Wonder how the kids who finished in the lower third on the scoresheet felt.
The more I think about it, the more I think the focus on racing and competition is a major reason for the large numbers of opti sailors who quits sailing.

I have never sailed an opti, so I will probably never be as good at sailing as those who started in optis will be.. Logical? No, marketspeak! It doesnt matter if you start out in an opti, a bathtub or a Melges24. Time in the boat matters to develop skills, not what kind of boat it is.
I have seen the scared kids unable to control the opti and being very alone, so I firmly believe a beginners boat should be able to be sailed two-up or three up.
A cat is the perfect fun boat for sailing, cruising, fooling around and bathing for the kids. I think the opti is so succesful becouse it have "critical mass" and "everybody else" are using them. Not becouse of the qualities of the boat.
A new Opti costs more than a rotomoulded F12 I was quoted..

When I taught sailing about 8 years ago we had some lasers and some optis. The optis sat most of the time unused because the kids (most age 9-12) preferred to go 3 per a laser rather than get in the slow optis. The only good thing about an opti is that you don't have to convince the kids to stop capsizing for fun. The optis are also a pain if you have any current because they are not powerful enough to fight it, especially for an inexperienced sailor who might blow a tack or two.

Kids enjoyed racing but by far a trip to a sandy shore a mile or two away (which ends up as a competition to see who can get to shore first) to have lunch was the favorite activity.

I'm totally biased, but in the US we should be promoting the heck out of Hobie Waves. Not so much in the rest of the world, they have differing choices.

Optis are either boring or scary depending on the kid's view of the world and definitely slow and stupid looking.

Not that a Wave is especially sleek-looking, but it beats the heck out of an Opti on looks.

And I'm going to reiterate the point that kids like to be social and sail together. There's a small percentage of kids who actually want to be by themselves.

We've had a crew of 3 kids, none of which was over the age of 7, sail a Wave with good competency (they weren't the boat in the fleet of 10 I was keeping an eye on).

Nothing is going to change the system the Opti has, but we can certainly offer an alternative to it that has greater appeal to the kids at large these days.

The opti system is all about individual competitiveness. There's a time and place for that for some kids. There are a heckuva lot more kids who aren't into that system, but they are forced into it by their parents.

In addtition to the OpenBic, which I've seen, Bic Sports is floating an "un-regatta" event theme with their sailboards, and kids like the format. I haven't seen an "un-regatta" first hand, but I can appreciate how well received it probably is.

The Wave is not as affordable as an Opti, but it is no more difficult to tote around. Get a lightweight trailer and throw it on there in one piece. Forget lifting a heavy boat over your head to put it on top of a car.

I'm a girl and I can trailer and un-trailer a Wave by myself. Cartopping is out of the question for me. How in the heck would I lift an Opti or anything else onto the top of my car without assistance?

Shop around and you can pick up a perfectly good Wave for anywhere from $1K - $2.5K

I've always thought the best way to sell Waves would be to bring several to a big Opti regatta and allow the Opti kids to try them. The kids already know how to sail, so it should be a quick transition for them. Of course, the event organizers might not be too happy if you showed up with 5 Waves for a quick race after the Optis hit the beach, but hey...they don't like us already!

Like this? http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm
The program is still alive in Seattle. Meeting with the City of Kirkland today. "A Day on the Lake" will be held June 14, at Marina Park in Kirkland on Lake Washington. Program will include "Fast and Fun" six Waves from Sail Sand Point. Also kayaking, Parasailing, and Heart of Sailing Foundation, a program that introduces sailing to children with developmental disabilities. We hope to also get them out on the Waves. Volunteer Cat Sailors will be on the Waves to help out, and get the kids on the tiller.

Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle, WA
with programs also at Houghton Beach Kirkland and Mercer Island this year.

Just to set things straight: I don't hate mono hulls any more than the next cat sailor ;-) My Opti-killer sub-title was meant as a joke. The point was that I would like to know if there is a cat that is : cheap, light and easy for a couple of kids. I'll definitely keep an eye on the F12 in this respect. (Waves are very rare in Europe though I think they would be almost ideal).

I have sailed mono hulls almost exclusively 'till almost two years ago. OTOH, maybe its like giving up smoking, the quitters themselves often turn into the most militant anti-smoking activists...

I just think Opti's are boxy, slow and ugly. I actually like lasers very much, so I certainly don't just hate all monohulls.

I'd love for my son and daughter to be able to blast across the surface the way only cats and surfboards really can.
Whenever I see kids in Opti's I get the impression they are either working hard or fighting (in any significant wind), kids on cats always just seem to be having fun! More like dancing than fighting. Besides cat sailing is certainly more socially engaging for kids because they hardly ever sail alone.

I guess there's really no substitute for the Optimist as a learner boat at the moment. When the time comes I'll see if I can build something for them myself. Maybe Richard Woods' Pixie would be suitable. Building a boat together sounds like the perfect male-bonding exercise. Either that or the basis of an eternal feud...

Nothing personal Dennis, I just want to point out an issue to everybody who reads this thread and are using your post as an example.



If an opti sailor loving his boat and his sailing read the above, how would he feel?
I think we are too free with our thoughts on the forum. Posts with expressions like this pops up often, and that reflects badly back on ourself. I am sure we have Opti sailors visiting this forum and what would they think about catamaran sailors after reading this? Now Dennis was the unfortunate example (sorry Dennis) but I see the same happening between catamaran classes also. It is very easy to forget that this forum is open for reading for the whole world..


If you are about to go to the investment of building a boat, ask first. There are builders of Pixies, Quattros, F12s, F16s and whatever here. I for sure would not spend the money and time to build an "old" design like the Pixie today, but opinions will vary..

I understand where you're coming from Rolf. I did not intend to hurt anybodies feelings. The problem is that I sometimes find it difficult to formulate politically correct opinions within a reasonable time frame that still say what I mean! The few Opti-lovers I know mostly like the boats for sentimental reasons, not for their aesthetics.
As a cat sailor I am all too familiar with disparaging remarks. Like cats are not 'real' boats, have no grace or style etc etc... Everyone is entitled to their opinions I guess and tastes differ.

I'll be sure to consider the age of the design when and if I go to build one. Cheap to build will be a major criterion though... Could be tough with one of the more racing oriented boats...

Dennis: Where do you live?
There are a few people in Holland who are trying to grow the Dragoon class. IMHO the Dragoon is a great cat for young sailors and adults alike.
What they do is they get a parent to sail with their kid against other kids and when they reach a certain level or age the parent stops and the kids sail with each other.
(I can PM you with more info if you want).

If you are looking for a small learner cat, there is a Hobie Advance for sale now:
http://watersport.marktplaats.nl/catamarans/157217930-hobie-cat-advance-2006.html

edit:
The word "opti-killer" is used quite often, mosly in reference to this little boat:
http://www.openbic.com/

Lots of interesting thoughts here, so I'll give my two cents as well.

First of all, I sailed and raced the Opti for two years. And as many of you correctly has pointed out, the boat is very slow, it has a very poor hull design hydrodynamically speaking, and a low tech rig. The boat is also impossible to sail two up. However, my experience from sailing it is that exactly because of the poor hull design and the low tech rig the boat gave very instant and direct feedback when you did something wrong or right, thus making it a very good learner boat. Because of its bathtub chaped hull it required a very, very good feel when riding waves, both upwind and downhill. This is of course important in any sailing boat, but especially important in the oppy as you truly did kill your speed if you didn't do it right.

As already mentioned, the rig made the boat possible to handle in hairy conditions. With a kicker and a spri-pole you easily learned the basics for sail trim. The sail design also required that the sailor could master the technique of "riding American" (don't know if that's a Norwegian expression) which means you heel the boat to windward to get the top of the sail as high as possible in light conditions. As the hull is rather boxy in shape this required quite a bit of training and balance to master well. In rougher conditions the boat would plane on the waves, making it a wet but very fun ride. As in multis, in these conditions you had to be careful not to stick you bow in. This is also the case for other dinghies, but owning a Laser myself I know that it is far harder to keep an oppy on plane than the Laser, as the Laser's hull to a certain degree does the job for you.

So to me it seems there is a bigger problem finding a boat that kids can take up after the Oppy. Here in Norway most sailors go from the Oppy to the Europe dinghy, which in short is a milder version of the Laser, but very expensive.

It dont seem very logical to me making the kids start out in a boat which is hard to sail?

What would you have decided on if you could go from the Opti into a cat with spi and trapeze or the Europe? Assume both classes had equal numbers locally but only the Europe had any numbers nationally.

J. Castelo Branco (white castle), sailing director of Caicaras Club, Ipanema/Rio, agrees with you 100%. He went on to build a small fleet of maxi-Optimists able to carry two adults!

The class is now knowned as "Castelao" (big castle).

Hey Dennis, did you report your cat launch already?

Hi Andinista,
I did report buying my Nacra 5.2, but I did not cross-post it to all the threads I started while looking for advice...

I have yet to launch the boat, it was snowing over here only a few days ago. Next month I think I'll get around to that. We are in the middle of buying a house, so that could impact the launch date somehow...

Tony, thanks for the link. The advance looks very nice. I'm not looking for a boat right now though. Just trying to plan ahead!
We will be moving to Vlissingen in a couple of months, and sailing at "Cat club Zeeland", on the North Sea.

Hmmmm. The bic o'pen looks like a promising toy that could be car topped when I am too lazy to tow the cat, as I often sail alone and would like to sail after work. I could thow the bic on the roof of the car the night before.......I wonder what the pricing on the bic is like?

Ok, sorry for the hijack. I'm a big sunfish advocate, as I started out in a sunfish around the age of 7 or 8. It was a good little boat, I could take a friend out if I wanted.

Having never sailed an opti, I don't know the boat. I do know that I usually see kids in the 5-7 range sailing them.

The Bic is a cool boat. I sailed it 2 years ago, I definitely fit in it better than an Opti! The no bailing advantage is HUGE!!! But I don't forsee it taking over Optis. My friend is in charge of promoting it in North America... the marketing strategies and effort they are putting into carrying it out is really unique and exciting. Check out the Miami Bic O'pen Un-Regatta video on youtube, the kids are definitely having fun.
LaserPerformance (formerly Vanguard) has introduced the Bug this year. Their approach to a new Opti, similar rig and idea to the Bic O'Pen, obviously direct competition. Theres a clip on youtube from the london boat show about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwuugqfBZ8c

Just brush the snow off the tramp and get out on it!!!.. bring and ice pick with you if you need to break the ice off your trailer wheels!!!!!

hehe

Dennis, I felt the same way until I saw a fleet(50+)of Opti's at Lake Eustis while racing the N20. I got a whole new impression of the junior fleet and Opti Fleet. My 8yo has an Opti and a H14, and although he prefers the H14 for the fun factor, the Opti racing is really cool. Tons of kids, and lots of head to head racing in many fleets of different skill levels. There is no other boat offering that kind of racing anywhere in the world. And yes he has sailed my Laser, but he is not ready for that boat or the H14 in any significant wind.
I remember in the 70's when I saw my 1st NACRA, I thought it was the ugliest cat I had ever seen, mostly because all I had ever seen was H14's and H16's. I later owned a 5.2 as my 1st cat...funny how we can be so impressionable by a certain "look"

Guess you are right Dave,
if my son turns out to like racing, I guess he needs to go with whatever gives him the best competition at first. It would probably do him little good if he was the only one sailing a small cat. OTOH, a small cat would definitely have an obvious 'coolness' advantage.

Good point on the Nacra vs Hobie. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. (My first cat still IS a Nacra 5.2 BTW)

Dennis:
I think Cat Club Zeeland is currently the center of Hobie Dragoon youth catsailing, you will meet Geert there who runs the program.

OK, thanks Tony, I'll keep my eyes peeled...

Apparently I am the exception to the rule, but I learned on a Sunfish. My parents bought two of them (they can be found really cheap in good condition if you look carefully), and my mom taught my sister and I to sail them when we were 9. Last summer I got tired of my boat (not exciting enough on average days) so I got a job and purchased a Hobie 14 standard, which is currently being upgraded to turbo.
One guy at the club has a Wave, which he races regularly, and I have found that my 14 is slightly faster. The only problem is that it can't take passengers well. Still, some light kids might be able to sail one. I'm to old and big for that ( 17 years old, 155 lbs), although I did take a friend out once when the race was cancelled (it was blowing 28 mph- fun times).

Ok Im going to date myself.. I learnt on a VJ http://fly.to/veejay

But is the f12 designed for 5-10 years olds to sail solo? or is it the "next boat"?

It depends on the sail size, risk apetite and number of kids on board.

Kids in this age range can sail the F12 two up normally. They can also choose to take some risk and sail singlehanded below the ideal weight. Parents who don't like that risk would simply rig a smaller sail.

At least the VJ looks fast and furious...
The F12 looks promising but I don't know where that is headed... It appears the target audience for the design is undefined. Maybe who buys what and how many will decide where it goes?

I believe the old VJ was the fastest sharpie hulled boat, for length, at that time. When I was growing up only in cyclone winds were races canceled and then only because the safety boat was getting swamped. On a tight shy in a blow we used o keep up with the I14s.. Helps if one has a light weight boat and a low aspect rig in those conditions.. Having the ablilty to have effectively two kids on trap also helps!! Also we used woolen "jumpers" to keep us warm. The added advantage is 4 wet wool layers was almost as much as I weighted at that time!! Great boat but not for the faint hearted..

Boats like the VJ, mini skiffs (6, 8, 10 & 12) and later Flying Ant & Cherub, I suspect account for the great strength in Aussie and NZ sailing skill levels and boat design leadership in past generations.

I believe the old VJ was the fastest sharpie hulled boat, for length, at that time. When I was growing up only in cyclone winds were races canceled and then only because the safety boat was getting swamped. On a tight shy in a blow we used to keep up with the I14s.. Helps if one has a light weight boat and a low aspect rig in those conditions.. Having the ablity to have effectively two kids on trap also helps!! Also we used woolen "jumpers" to keep us warm. The added advantage is 4 wet wool layers was almost as much as I weighted at that time!! Great boat but not for the faint hearted..

Boats like the VJ, mini skiffs (6, 8, 10 & 12) and later Flying Ant & Cherub, I suspect account for the great strength in Aussie and NZ sailing skill levels and boat design leadership in past generations.

In my mind the F12 has a very clear target audience as a first boat for the "tweens". Ideally the class will promote safe and enjoyable racing and social sailing.

My own personal goal for the class is to gain ISAF "recognised" status by the end of 2010.

There has been a lot of talk here and in other places about the need to develop a suitable youth cat class but it won't happen without a few people putting in the time and effort required to kick start it. Everyone reading this is a cat enthusiast, so if you have kids of the right age and so do some of the people you sail with and against talk to them about the idea of building an instant fleet. If you build a few boats together they will cost less than many of you spend on sails each year and you'll quickly have the critical mass required to encourage other people to join you.

The other advantage of F12 is that as a new box rule the "best solution" is yet to be found, so any budding cat designer's out there (you know its you) can have a go at designing and building their own boat on a scale that won't blow the bank if your idea doesn't fly. I'm more than happy to provide technical assistance to people going down this path.

Chris Tucker

Another advantage is the price of the plans. Tell them.

I know about Chris's free plans! He gave me a set and they sure look great.
My kids are not old enough yet but I'm still quite interested. Besides I have been wanting to build a boat for a long time. Maybe an F12 could fit the bill.

as chris puts it:
<quote>The other advantage of F12 is that as a new box rule the "best solution" is yet to be found </quote>
That is what I think will need to happen before "mass adoption (wouldn't that be nice!)" can happen.

I think the Optis are so popular because of the KISS principle (and no, I don't mean Dereck Kelsall's version).
I also think the rest of this topic deserves to be in the F12 forum BTW.

I think Mary hit it right on-"If your child likes racing [and steering], you are going to have to give up your own racing for maybe years to take your child to Opti regattas. Most catamaran sailors are not willing to make that sacrifice."
My daughter is years behind most Opti kids in her skippering skills since she "wasted" so much time crewing for me, and she started THAT late compared to the Optis. It's going to take her a long time to catch up, and maybe she'll never do that because she still doesn't have all summer to race. We also don't have a local yacht club with a junior racing program (I don't count one hour each way as local). I did give up some of my "good" racing early on by training up a young crew (and a 10 year old girl on a Hobie 20 is NOT the optimum crew), and now I'm giving up more possible success by letting her steer when we still sail together (although maybe she'll be better than I am pretty quickly; She's starting earlier than I did.) Big plus again, though, provided we both find crews, we can double stack the 16 and 20 and both of us get to race. We COULD do that in Lasers, too, but both of us prefer real boats :-) I love to come to work on Monday and all the other parents are talking about spending all weekend watching soccer, and I say, "I raced WITH my daughter." OK, I'm selfish, but that time together has to count for something, right? I know firsthand she earned those bruises :-)

All I know is that when we were able to "share" a youth event with the Optis, all those kids came in for packing up and coaching debriefs (with a nice breeze still blowing). The cat kids stayed out for another hour on their own, reaching back and forth and trying to flip. Looked like fun to me. I also heard one young lad tell his mother "Those Hobies look cool, Mom", and she replied "Yes, but they may be too fast for us". !! I think she made a convert right there; just may take a while :-)

I say let 'em train on the Optis, then move in and steal 'em.

Well, look at all the people who give up sailing to take their kids to soccer games and little league. It's the same thing when you take your kids to Opti regattas. And let's say it wasn't Optis...let's say it was small catamarans and those catamarans had a network like the Optimists have. Would most catamaran sailors, even then, give up their own regatta sailing for years to take their kids to the youth events?

Won't happen with my kids, at least if any of my genes transfered through. I'm one of the few that is actually more coordinated while inebriated. They don't have a chance at anything that requires catching or throwing.


Why not hand the tiller over to the kids on a full sized beach cat. Most probably can't handle the main sheet too well, but that's easy enough for a crew/dad to handle. I think it would probably take some serious patience but its a heck of alot cheaper than building, buying, storing, and transporting a second boat. Plus it would give you a chance to really coach the kid, vs sending it out to gets its butt kicked.

or, am I way off in left field? I don't have kids, so I am actually shooting in the dark here.

If most kids start in monohulls, most kids will remain sailing monohulls.

There are too many mono classes trying to hook kids when they live the Optimist, but almost no entry or intermediate level cat class. We want the F12 to compete with those classes AND with the Optimist - even when the F12 designers have different views about the target age range and other details.

At least four sets of excellent F12 plans are available today. All of them are very inexpensive, simple to build, fast and safe. Will they converge to a one design class? I certainly hope so. It just isn't a priority right now.

All F12 models allow a girl to start sailing at 7 (two up) and eventually to sail singlehanded - forever, if her size and weight are normal or small.

All F12 models allow a boy to start sailing at 7 (two up) and eventually to sail singlehanded, until his weight requires a bigger cat, like an F16, H16 or F14; typically at 17 years old.

The first boats are being built now and sail numbers have already been assigned. Let your kids choose a model and help bring this wonderful class to life. If you start early enough, you will have a great story to tell the grandsons: your pioneer participation in the startup of the class they will sail.

All the best,

I certainly have been doing that. My six year old says he does not need sailing classes in small boats because he "already drives the big ones".

I'm hoping I'll have to give one of my boats to the kids.

This is what kinda happened to me.

I was lucky that I went to school before the health-and-safety-executive and the PC muppets got involved with school.

I learned to Crew with one of my teachers at school.

I was then lucky that my dad wanted to sail too, and the most important thing was that he waw willing to crew for me to start with

He then moved to a boat of his own and I then got may own boat.



IF my kids want to sail, my sailing will have to take a back foot for a few years.

I'll drag them around in what they choose to sail, and if the place we are sailing allows cats, I'll take the F16 and sail that while they sail.

No doubt they will start crewing for me, and as soon as they want (or I think they are ready) they will get the chance to helm.



If they don't want to sail, then so be it.


The way things are going, they may be more interested in Ski racing than sailing, but that could work out very expensive.

Joy from the Ski holiday I went on recently was watching my son ski past his god father the second time we took him down a red run.

If they don't give it up, IMHO they've got their priorities messed up. Whether it be sailing, ball, dancing, whatever, support and encourage the kids in their formative years.

and by the way...

WE ARE KANSAS!!!

I can't speak for "most sailors" but that is what I have done, last year I switched clubs from a catamaran club to a child freindly club with a great cadet section that uses Oppi's.

This year a couple of other people from my old club have done the same. I don't see this as abandoning cat sailing, but more as part of a long term plan to increase my time on the water.

I have just qualified as an instructor in order to teach other Cadets to sail. I am a supporter of the F12 concept for young kids 7 and up, but I would not advocate starting them on anything other than a suitable small monohull like an Oppi. I intend to introduce an F12 to my club in the near future.

THis approach teaches them the right skills and with the big numbers involved in Oppi sailing it shows them that the social side of sailing is great as well. I think the social aspect is the bit that will keep them hooked, and if they learn to sail as well and occasionaly take their Dad out for a sail then I beleive it will be time well spent.

Gareth

[quote I think the social aspect is the bit that will keep them hooked, and if they learn to sail as well and occasionaly take their Dad out for a sail then I beleive it will be time well spent.

Gareth [/quote]

Whatever you do don't get them so hooked they decide to go into the industry. There is no money to be made that way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You are right on about everything you said and everything you are doing, Gareth. Kids want to be with other kids. And they really need to learn to sail a boat solo first, to build their confidence in their ability to control a boat on their own.

And it is not just about sailing. Learning how to be in command of your own vessel is a life experience that will help you with confidence in all walks of life even if you never sail again after childhood.

Remote control sailboats is a good way to teach kids sailing theory. I have been able to teach the bright ones how to do it in 10 minutes. They approach it as a 3D video game. The concept of the difference between tacking & jibing is much easier to show/teach with a model because the learning experience has a birds eye view of the sails interaction with the invisible wind.

"let's say it was small catamarans and those catamarans had a network like the Optimists have."

That is a VERY big IF, IMO. We have enough trouble trying to keep a regular cat group going. Sure, if we never start we never get there, but that is a HUGE goal to hit for a bunch of minority-group sailors. If I wanted to sacrifice my time, would I want to sacrifice MORE time to start a whole new group, or would I just take the easy option? Well, you already know I'm a lazy selfish bastard; I'm gonna dump 'em off at the dock and sit at the YC bar while they sail Optis. I'm sure not gonna build 'em a boat. Again, some people do all that; more power and great respect for them. Most of the people I sail with aren't that motivated. I've never had trouble stealing kids off Optis; it's the 30 year olds who are hard sells.

I've been taking my kids out on various boats since they were babies. They like going out on our keelboat because it's family time, they like to go to the vberth when it's heeled and bouncy, and we try to go to fun destinations for them. I belong to a sailing club that has mostly dinghies. The kids can't join or go out on their own, because it is a college club (which allows alumni to retain their membership, thus why I'm still there). My kids usually have to be coerced to go dinghy sailing, but once we are out they have a good time. So they have been on a Pico, Bravo, Laser, FJ, Flying Scot, Hobie 16, and a Hobie 20 as crew. When they were 8 (twins) they took a sailing lesson at Sail Sand Point, it was mostly in Optis. My daughter thought the lessons were ok, but wasn't very excited by the Opti. My son has always told me, "Dad, you know sailing is more your thing." On one class they went out on the Hobie Wave, when they got back I asked how it went, my son said, "of course when it's windy and it's a cat it's fun." SSP has a great deal of a $1 season pass for kids Optis. Everytime we went to go sailing, it was a battle to get them to go Opti sailing, they always wanted to go Wave sailing. They weren't big enough to be allowed to sail the Waves. I had joined and would quite often cave in and take them Wave sailing. The next summer because of scheduling problems we didn't do SSP. (It also didn't help that they whined about the Optis everytime lessons came up.) Since they had taken the lesson with a friend, I tried to arrange for them to be together in a class this coming summer and was discussing possible classes her Dad. His daughter wasn't excited about the Optis either. SSP has a cruise to a destination and eat lunch camp on the Waves that they might be old enough for. (Lower age 10 or 11 depending on where you look on the web page.) That is the only camp/class that I could find that uses the Waves there. They also have Hobie 16s, but we're about 3 years away from being old enough for that. I came up with an alternate solution, I asked the other Dad if he wanted to go in on a Hobie 14 for our kids. It was cheaper than a week of lessons for my twins. It's the kind of boat that they want to sail, and they are going to be able to sail without adults onboard and the 3 of them will get to sail together. They also weren't having much fun singlehanding. We haven't even had the boat in the water yet, so I don't know if this is going to work, but instead of my kids whining everytime I mention sailing lessons, they are at least semi excited about owning a boat.

I think SSP is a great organization, but I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to have more classes using the Waves, particularly since apparently I have ruined my kids for Optis by allowing them to sail cats.

I guess it could be pointed out that I should have worked within the system to make cat sailing more accessable to other junior sailors rather than opting out and buying my own boat. Well now that I've thought of it, maybe I'll see if there is something I could do in that direction.

John

I started the thread "First Boat?" after reading this thread for a while. So far, not one person has responded saying they learned to sail on an Opti. That tells me that an Opti may be a good boat for a kid to learn how to sail, but not a good boat to learn to love sailing. I know the Opti has been around forever, so it's not a matter of age. Maybe the Opti-kids all stick with monohulls, maybe it's like soccer (which now seems MANDATORY for kids, but is never played again).

Nevertheless, I did find it interesting to see how many of us did start on some kind of smaller monohull. Perhaps the problem with the Opti is that it is only found in such an intensive, regulated environment. In considering my own initial experience, my totally unsupervised crashing about on my Sea Snark in the bay seemed to instill the free-spirit attitude that ultimately drew me toward cat sailing.

could also be that many of started in areas Opti free!! Opti are not huge here even today. We had Pelicans & mudlarks as the first series of learner boats.. VJs were before them, but in reality not a great trainer as your 10% in control in a blow on a VJ and 90% wondering what is happening or more likely what happened!!

I learned to sail in an Optimist. I believe it was in 1971 at age 11. They are excellent sailing schools for dinghies, not for cats.