Where to get a custom carbon mast?

Hi All,
Yesterday as i was stepping down my 30', 3 ton Mystere 5.5 mast, and my friend was stepping his 31' mast (Mystere 5.5 ) he said, “I am to old for this *#*&!, I need a carbon fiber mast”....

Not that i can afford one (I am sure) but i am curious where one would get a custom carbon fiber mast made, and does anyone have any idea what one would cost (ball park)?

Thanks, Andrew

Forte or Hall spars are a start, probably between $5k and $6k.

Second on the Forte, or Hall.

I have a repaired carbon i20 mast, you want to buy it? PM me.

Rumor has it that the I20 is going to an alum mast same as the F17's.

Probably worthy of another thread - but we're at a cross roads as a class. If the boat prices stay as high as they are (over $20k due largely to the carbon stick), new boats simply won't sell and the class prognosis is eventually terminal. If the price can be made lower with an Aluminum mast AND it could be made as competitive as the carbon stick then new boats will sell and although the class could be damaged by the addition of a carbon mast, it won't necessarily have a terminal outlook.

I just remember stepping the 68 lbs Nacra 6.0 mast.

Dreadful.

what really got me was when my spin halyard got caught on my trailer and i twisted my back... it is a killer!

Or your trap ring gets stuck in a daggerboard trunk.

I'm sure John Pierce from Stealthmarine will quote. Could be cheaper than you think.

I dont quite understand why the i20 mast is so expensive. Last I knew it was over $5k.

I got a quote on a 33' tube from Forte that they are making off the aluminum T section, so its pear shape, for $1400 - thats last years price, but still no where near $5k.

And my Acat mast (29') was $2200, and the Hall stuff is very, very well made, all hand laid, clear coated, wing shape, way better part than the i20 mast, just a little shorter.

I dont get it.

Performance needs to find a new supplier.



Bill

Who is Perf. using for the I20 carbon stick? If they are using someone out of the US, the weak dollar plus shipping could be part of what is driving up the price.

How much does the "new" aluminum wing mast weigh on the Capricorn? What would the same section weigh at say, 2 feet longer, if that's the difference between the I-20 and F18.

That thing sucked..... and after that everything seems like a piece of cake. I just always hoped that when the time came, the person I was with hopped on the tramp first.... then I would say... "let me help you and I'll lift the end up and grab the forestay" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The 20 masts are made by Omohundro, a division of Southern Spars, i'm pretty sure the new ones are labeled as Southern Spars. Last price I heard was $5,600
From what i've heard the masts are produced in South Africa then shipped to CA for finishing. Explains the high cost when the money spent in fuel is considered.
Personally, I think the 20's mast is way overweight... the gelcoat covering certainly doesn't help! The 18HT and Tornado masts are similar lengths and much lighter! Neither have the gelcoat... does the gelcoat make that much of a difference in durability? If so why don't other carbon masts have more protection? Is clearcoat lighter?
The Capricorn mast is extremely light, I was shocked when I chartered one last year and went to raise the mast. I might even go as far as to say its not any heavier than the 20's mast (I realize it is a couple feet shorter). I've heard the infusion mast is light as well, if the class went to that extrusion, I don't think the weight difference would be that dramatic. I feel that the change to a wing mast would be more of a difference.
If your looking for a lighter mast, i'd talk to Robbie and Jill, they are in your back yard and could supply you with a Capricorn extrusion for a lot cheaper than you getting a custom carbon spar made.

You guys ever consider a winch on the trailer upright? Makes it a much easier job.

And a ginpole makes it even easier.
Here's an old thread to explain.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

Boy, with those figures on the table, that sure doesn't make sense does it?

The N20 mast is pretty heavy for a carbon stick and it's not terribly stiff - BUT one could argue that it is pretty darn durable. I've only seen a few break and most of those reasons were pretty obviously not the mast's fault (flipping in the surf).

Southern Spars make the masts. They are located in New Zealand.

And I'm sure the US Dollar exchange rate isn't helping things at all.

http://www.csi-composites.com/
i worked on an open 60 rig in this shop. great bunch of guys. best products. ive got their stuff on my boat.

Your best bet is definitely going with a domestic source. Call up Ben Hall and see if you can get set up. Shipping a single carbon mast anywhere right now is a killer, and going to get worse here pretty quick with $4 Diesel.

Another option is to call Fiberfoam (sit down before they give you the price, they deal in Euros) and see if anyone is going to have a load of rigs shipped here anytime soon. Usually, several sailmakers, sparbuilders, boatbuilders, and retailers will get together and buddy up on a shipment. We all keep in communication about potential import options. I don't know of any right now for those of us on the West coast, but that doesn't mean there's nothing going on in the east. You may want to call your local performance boat builders, riggers etc and see if they know of anything.

If you go with an offshore source, plan on missing this sailing season just to be safe. With the Department of Homeland Security checking everything, I have had shipments from AUS delayed several months.

Everyone's pricing looks accurate, between 5 and 7 G's all said and done.

Also, check out the US Acat site, you never know what might pop-up.

Hope that helps!

The masts are made by Southern Spars (who acquired Omohundro in 2001). They originally were made at Omohundros facility that I think was in California or nevada (they also made Farr 40 masts). Southern then sent the tooling to New Zealand and just last year sent it to South Africa. With each move, the cost has gone up.

I had written a letter to the Class Assoc. (I think it went to Mark Biggers) expressing my concern and recommending Forte as a more economical alternative. I think Mark sent it on to Performance. I definitely agree that the cost of the new boat needs to come down in order for the class to survive, but I also don't want to see the class splintered by going to a stick that does not perform. I was however very surprised at the price of a new F17 with the aluminum mast. If the 20 saw a similar reduction, it certainly couldn't hurt the class.

Perhaps all of those interested should express our opinions to Performance. I know it is not a member run class, but it can't hurt that the manufacturer knows where the class stands.

T

If you could buy a "better" aerodynamic shaped alum. wing type mast, would the better aerodynamics on the leading edge of the sail offset the heavier weight?

Talk amongst yourselves.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I used to use one on my TheMightyHobie18.( An E-Z mast stepper ). Yes they do make stepping easier but they take about 15 minutes or more to get on your boat properly and my rigging time is already over an hour. I have so many lines, wires and "stuff" goin on at the front of my cat with my spin, anchor lines, bridal etc… getting in there to fiddle with the mounting of the ginpole is a pain and a ½.

Another problem with that is my trailer is set up to put my boat on sterns facing my car. This allows me to have the mast at an angle for easier stepping and i would have to move the "trailer beams" around since the rear ones have cradles and not rollers.

I have found with a “helper” line tied to my halyard, If I find someone on the beach to give me a little help the line… it is much more manageable. I can handle it without to much a risk of a hernia.

I was just curious about the carbon mast. I can’t see spending 2x on the mast, compared to what I paid for the entire catamaran… but I can always dream.

I'm not convinced there would be a lessening in the performance of the boat - just because it's carbon doesn't make it fast and I'm certain that given enough time and development, an aluminum stick could be made as fast or faster than the carbon stick. However, there will be some performance difference and that is not good for the class - but it's better than death.

If you went to a different carbon mast supplier, I think you are still going to see some differences as the production methods, tooling, and/or materials will experience some differences. Either way, you're going to have to deal with some sort of change.

I agree, there will definitely be some degree of change. Hall would probably be able to produce the closest thing to the existing stick, but also would probably be the most expensive (still cheaper imho). I would guess that forte could do a blank for quite a bit less, but i'm sure it would have different bend characteristics and weight (since they use an Aluminum T mast as the mandrel), but I'm guessing it would still be pretty close. I've never seen the newer F18 extrusions so have no idea on the weight of those, but you can probably get really close to the carbon stick in terms of weight (my old alum. T mast was pretty close to the current I20 carbon stick in terms of weight).

If they can get the price of a new boat down to the $13K range I think we would all welcome an alum. stick. If it would still be in the $16-17 range probably not so much. It seems when things get over $15K it gets alot harder to justify. Has anyone heard anything from the factory on this?

I've been casually quoted, by 2 dealers, a price of $23K for a new 20...
I'm decrease to 16-17 would be amazing! That's the price of a new Infusion!
I think the day of seeing these boats under $15K is long gone.

$23K???? Ouch.

Can't sell boats at that price. $16-17 I guess is the best we can hope for.

Capt. Kirk quoted the new price at $19,600 without trailer two weeks ago at Mid Winters.

I think I can safely say I'd recommend this shop too. I know Mark, and in addition to being a catsailor, he's devoted to his work, and craftsmanship. His crew is a good bunch too.

hmm well my friend asked Kirk and thats what he was told and I confirmed it with Kirk at midwinters to get the response "yea all said and done, its around there"
Maybe all said and done means with a trailer? In your quote, was he including taxes, shipping from the factory and etc?

Really funny to see my talking points being expressed by my greatest opponents.

I guess I was just too much ahead of my time when I was rediculed for expressing such views.

Wouter

Well I can't say that they are that durable. I broke one at Nationals in Tybee one year. I was surfing down a wave and slammed into the wave in front. My crew blew the chute but the stress of the stop was too much and the mast snapped. I wasn't too pleased about it since I had chartered the boat.

Anyway I picked up and stepped that F16 blade mast and was amazed at how light that aluminum mast was. I could almost pick it up and step it like a laser.

I don't want to go back to a 60lbs mast. That wouldn't be acceptable in my book. Stepping my P19, H20, and N6.0 masts were a beast.

Mike Hill

The i20 mast shape could be improved as well, a pear shape is fatter than a true wing shape, so it you make a mast in a wing shape its going to have less surface area and less material, (alum or carbon) so it will be lighter in that regard. Its also going to be stiffer by nature, more material in the fore/aft axis.
If the i20 class does go to Forte, they should demand a true wing mast shape, dont go with the T section he's using now.

I'm a fan of the Forte stuff, its durable and less expensive. A $1000 wing mast secion would be awesome, think about a second mast for you Acat to go out in a blow, or to use when its windy, make it stffer. Anyway a Forte wing mast would be a good thing.

Bill

Yeah, your's sucked but it was the only boat-standing breakage I've ever seen on an I20 stick though.

Well since the question became (and sorry about the hijack) "how to keep costs down so the class survives" then we need to examine how to keep the class alive as it relates to the mast.

I don't think that changing the mast drastically would promote class health. If huge performance gains are made by changing the stick, you've obsoleted every used boat out there until it goes to the new stick.

Wouter,
We are all aware of the pro/cons of carbon vs aluminum. You dont have to remind us.

I dont think an aluminum i20 mast would be lighter than the current carbon one, it will be less expensive, but probably heavier. The wall thickness on the i20 mast is pretty thin, so its not like they are over engineering them.

If they use a domestic supplier, go with a wing mast, they will use less material and the mast will be better and cheaper.

Bill

My point was that if you are going to change, make it a wing mast.

Here's a kick in the face.... M20 mast? 9k!!

I asked Jim Young back in October a/b putting that stick on the I20. His reply, "nah we're not going to do it b/c the carbon masts stand up to the crazy stuff you all do on the 20's better." Next thing I know two months later the rumors a/b an Al mast start flying.

I have no problems so long as the performance hit is negligeble... I think most people would feel the same way. The newer alloys and shapes could provide us with a mast that might sacrifice a couple of pounds but save us a few more in the pocket book. A new one will however probably obsolete the older mains but that's already been done with the recent spreader change.

I've done some CRAZY stuff with an I20 and never had a rig fail but I've seen a couple go. We were right behind Mark Murry when they broke their mast in the '02 W1k. It broke in a gust when they let the main go. Also saw one in Tampa at Hobie Midwinters East WAY back when the boat first came out. Was blowing 30 and I think someone eased the main in a gust... POP!! I've been to hell and back under those sticks... take care of keeping proper structure and not whipping it too hard and it will hold up for quite a while.

G'day Bill I understand the alloy being stronger in a wingmast without much mast rotation but doesnt it bend excessively if you've got a fair bit of rotation and main on hard? I had heard that the main benefit of carbon was its quick snap back into position after a gust etc would the new alloys match that?
regards

mark is a good [censored]. spent a long time working with him.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Nice to see him getting a good review! Most of our time together has been drinking, and talking about sailing, and boats.

well, there was a fair bit of that as well.

Jeff,
I dont have a clue if alloys "snap back faster after a gust"


Bill