Censorship: When is it necessary?

I think this is a topic worthy of its own thread.

Rick and I do not believe in censorship. The exceptions have been:

1. Pornography.
2. Blatant commercial advertising (other than our own, of course)
3. Persistent personal attacks on another sailor.

As a result of the recent controversies, I am wondering whether PERSISTENT attacks upon a specific class of boats would fall in the same kind of category as attacks on an individual sailor.

What do you guys think?

Naah, it makes for fun reading! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Additionally we have the "ignore user" function.... I wouldn't worry about it.

Here is my take;
1- Lets call it "Tastefull Art", but this is not an "artsy" site so it doesn't belong here.

2- Well its your site advertise what you want other than "see #1"

3- Incessant attacks on individuals should not be tolerated. Boats well thats another story, everyone has their opinion and it can be aired. Hopefully it has backing rather than just opinion or preference. The incessant attacks determination is tough one. If you look back one might determine that responses to Wouter's posts are incessant... (just an example <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) but generally those attacks have some figures in them to rebuke statements. OTOH, if someone is going off continually on an individual on a PERSONAL basis then they should take it elsewhere.

Of course this is my opinion, your mileage may vary (Borrowed from some other illustrius sailor).

Clayton

I think we can all agree that there is a difference between a personal attack, light teasing, and arguing a point. I think you/us are adult enough to see these differences and address accordingly. An option to deleting a post would be to first ask the author to edit or delete their own post if it is felt that it is out of line. This gives the author a chance to either realize he/she is out of line, or to explain where they are coming from. Remeber it is sometimes hard to here the tone of voice through a computer.

There is a difference between arguing a point and a personal attack. Having been rather frustrated by the later of the two, I found the "ignore user" function very useful. The line between arguing and personal attacks is not that fuzzy. Personal attacks shouldn't be tolerated.

An attack against a class is an attack aginst many individuals. Also I am sure some people cannot distinguish between individual and class. So yes it falls in the same category.
In the moment it seems impossible to debate some topics without things going out of control. However I am not sure if censorship and banning can solve it. Those people could login with new user names...

Cheers,

Klaus

My fear has come true. Even on one of my favorite websites you are no longer allowed to say anything that might hurt someones feelings. The other day I was scorned when I told my son to sit indian style, apparently now it is criss cross applesauce or some crap like that because indian style is not politically correct. Based on this new theory we will have to delete the entire thread about global warming as I am sure we have offended people from both sides of that arguement. Heck even I called weather forcasters idiots....which they are but hey. It seems to me that the world has gotten overly sensative in the past years and needs to take a big chill pill. I am sure I have upset someone with the post so feel free to bash away, censor, or demote my star count as you see fit.

Thank You, please pull forward.

Personal attacks should be deleted as well as SPAM but that's about where my limit is.

You don't have to read or reply to posts you don't like and like Jake said you can put a forum user in the ignore bucket.

It just appears over the last few years this forum has become increasingly heavy handed in it's moderation.

Be careful about NOT censoring. If you don't you might offend those people are sitting around just waiting to be offended!

The question is about PERSONAL attacks. The thread about GW is/was not personal to one in particular, well at least not consistantly, and calling forcasters idiots (although I don't agree)lumps them all into a group. Its when you call me an idiot and don't have any substance to back it up <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Thats when it gets personal. BTW, I'm not a forcaster of any sort.

So differnce being we can all disagree (and we do a lot) without getting personal with a person you don't even know.

JMO,

Peace all,
Clayton

I must be dense.
What class of boat is getting "persistent attacks"?
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I see certain members taking a beating often, mostly due to their strong opinions. But I don't notice any 1 class of boat taking it on the chin more than any other.

So, what's up?

THIS forum? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> When has there been any moderation on this forum? We have always left it up to the Users to resolve problems amongst themselves.

I was just hoping that this thread might give some ideas and guidance to the F16 Forum. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Boat class attack: If it´s part of the culture, what's the point in hiding it. Better allow the discussion activity to have it documented, so readers can make informed decisions, either about the issues under discussion or about their belonging to the cat sailing culture.

Personal attacks. I don't remember reading them, but if they are not in the context of sailing discussion, a good thing is to move them out to a separated cathegory (Offtopic, miscelaneous discussion, etc.) Telemarktips.com, for those who know it, has a specific section for that, they used to describe it as a section not present there for the interest of off topic discussion but to be able to separate it from the discussion around the subjetc. Now they changed that description I think, but I guess the idea is the same. But I've heard of forums where online aggressivity between members has moved to real life and the forum has been in involved in legal troubles, I don't have any detail, just heard about it, but its something to be aware of I think.

If this forum was moderated TikiPete would have been banned years ago. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gosh, I certainly hope that attacking someone else's class or brand of boat is not part of the "culture." <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
If that were the case, I know I wouldn't be part of the "cat sailing culture."

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Aww, shucks!

This one:

The best thing to do is to make everyone moderator, that way people can delete the posts they don't like and not be offended or whatever.
Total Anarchy!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

They could pull on their big boy pants! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I think it was a big mistake to limit debate (as if one really can do such a thing). Even worse to remove the debate/thread entirely!

I really thought the debate was useful They F16's have a box rule that differs from the F18 rule and the A class Rule, in part because of the market niche each is sitting in.

What happens as the rule plays forward for a class?
Does the law of unintended consequences show up?

The first debate... addressed... would having a large builder at the cost of a heavier class min actually benefit the class with respect to growth.


The second debate.. seemed to address the possible down side of a maxed out boat entering the class. (Sounded to me like a reprise of ... did the ventilo 20 kill the first formula 20 class by dominating and making the other boats obsolete. If yes... what rules would have prevented this.


The F16 guys should remember... We have listend to lots of debates ...
Should the hobie 16 class add a spinaker debate? the EU says yes... the USA says no... the kid's use a spinaker at the ISAF worlds in Kingston Ontario. Strong opinions all around. I learned something about classes and class leadership in listening to this one.

The F18HT class and the F18 class battled for acceptance in the USA and the EU. the proponents spoke loudly about what they thought was important...

So what is relevant to the F16 class today?... Why is this relevant... Well to me it is similar to the current situation where The Capricorn Viper F16 is heavier and more robust looking then the Blade F16. Will this be a decisive factor for the class growth? Will a buyer look at the two boats and choose in a way that undermines the current F16 class.

Opinions are just that. so OK Why would any one care... Well those of us who make races happen DO NOT WANT TO SEE MORE segmentation.

Personally, I am waiting for the SECOND hard wing A class sail to appear on the water and prove to be faster.... now THAT will upset the A class status quo.... and perhaps tear the class apart.

There are things to be learned about how classes and sailors sort through these kinds of issues.

After all... racing is all about agreement... If we don't agree... then we don't have a game....

For example... the AC fiasco points to what a mess develops with no agreement.

If it's not, then why the concern? If not a common practice, then just a wise opinion is enough to cool down isolated passions, or to clarify misunderstood intentionalities, as on the opti killer discussion not long ago.

Mary,

You may be confusing 'censorship' with 'rules'...

Only the government can censor, not a private business or individual. When the government edits reading lists, who can write, what they can write, who can broadcast, and what can be broadcast.... then we have censorship.

When 'Wall Mart' will not stock a particular CD, it is NOT censorship, rather; it is business making a decision. When someone comes over to my house, I insist they do not smoke. You may do the same. Mary, this is YOUR house... you call the rules. If you think someone has crossed the line, by all means, erase/ edit the post. This is your right. This is not censorship.... it is rules...

Now that we got that squared away.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mary, OK - I spent a few minutes over there and I now see what you are talking about. Moderators deleting threads is not cool. Punishing offenders is.

I think this discussion should be more about "what is moderation?" instead of the censorship thing. There is a way to keep things under control without deleting content. The user is the problem - not the thread.

Tornado, thanks for the laugh!!!!

Well unfortunately attacking certain classes has become vogue and has been going on for a long time, probably since Hereshoff invented cats. We should not attack each other but rather work together to win more converts from the monohull crowd.

I think that it is important to NOT censor discussions even if it is not going your way. Deleting a thread greatly reduces the viability and reputation of this forum, and the F16 class. Are the F16 people trying to hide something? I also saw a few posts on the breakage that occurred recently disappear.

I think that a discussion on weight was important, whether or not the discussion was between class members or not. The discussion perhaps became a bit redundant after a while, but I don't think it got out of hand. This was definitely not a case of attacking anything. Best solution by the f16 class was to ignore it and not respond. Mary please do not allow moderators to delete threads, for the sake of the reputation of YOUR forum.

Also I think that bullying should not be permitted. There are few individuals that just do not want to think that there are people with different opinions and have actively criticized other people's views in quite a rude fashion. By allowing a moderator to delete a topic you are allowing someone to bully others.

Mary I think we all apreciate the fact that this forum is not like a lot of the monohull forums and that we are quite civilized.

Everyone has opinions. I think verbal attackers should be warned. If they don't stop then Mary should delete post then. If that person continues THEN kick them from board. That is the way we did it on our local board.

Works real good. No one like abuse.

Doug

Excellent point.

I don't think we actually have any rules on this Open Forum, but maybe the F16 Forum could set up some rules that would make it easier for them to control.

You have put this into perspective for me. A group or class forum is THEIR house, designed to be inhabited by their "family," and they deserve to be able to protect themselves from endless outside harassment and lay down the rules of etiquette for visitors.

Sounds right to me.

The Open Forum is a whole different thing. The sailors on this forum are SO good at putting people in their place when they are out of line. It is self-moderating.

Why sensor anything? Language, personal attacks, etc? Sailing Anarchy has to be the most popular sailing forums. I like reading it, but I don't post to it too often. I don't know if it is due to the size and there by just having more people that are massive pricks, OR if because nothing is censored and things come across as more harsh.

I personally don't like threads disappearing. I don't recall there every being anything viscious on here except for the way some people responded to the retards/arguing on the internet picture. But that's your own choice. What is taboo for some isn't for others, and if you don't like it don't hang your butt out to get burned.

Just because a topic has been hammered to absolute death, or that it is pointless doesn't mean that it has to disappear. There is nothing to be gained from removing such things. The same goes for threads that have gone stray from their original topics. There is nothing wrong with it.

Ignore user. I really don't understand this, or maybe I'm thicker skinned, or don't mind idiots. I know I cannot be offended. I can be angered, embarresed, or proven stupid but offended is a term/feeling I honestly have no personal experience with.

You should also be able to, as moderator, lock a thread and stop anymore posts on it. I would consider those options before deleting stuff.

Yeah, but they're really in a room in your house with us here in another room. We're all one community and should interact like one

...where did Rick put the keys to the model A?

Hmmmmm. So you are saying that I should interfere with what other people do in their rooms and I also should give you the keys to our car? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

To delete a whole thread is JUST PLAIN WRONG – an abuse of the “power” entrusted to “MODERATORS! As a moderator (moderator means moderation, not dictatorship) to arbitrarily ‘delete” that which you simply – don’t agree with – is NOT moderation but propagandist censorship with overtones from NAZI logic. Always remember, “A little power corrupts, total power corrupts totally”. Just my moderations worth.
“Rules of engagement” for participating within this site means something entirely different from censorship. Rules are acceptable and understood up front before joining in. Censorship is something that is slammed down with a heavy hand after the fact without prior knowledge of the mental workings of the one who decides and who then wields the axe of the censorship WITH NO RECOURSE FOR APPEAL. A moderator who CENSORS instead of MODERATES is introducing a system of “star chamber” decisions and actions, definitely not the actions of “fairness. Democracy and debate”.

Exactly!, and while we're at it, where did he hide the keg?
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Isn't there already a site for that?

The map is in the safety deposit box, and we can't find the key.

Everybody, please research the matter properly before passing judgement.

Only one thread was deleted because it was a carbon copy of several other threads that had been spwaned for months and are indeed still available on the F16 forum. All others releated threads were locked. As such nothing is lost.

Actually it was Mary Wells herself who proposed to delete that thread and moderator Phill Brander complied.

No post about any breakage was ever deleted by a moderator. As a matter of fact, actually breakages instead of prophesized ones were not really part of these discussion. The post by PTP about his hull cracking (and being replaced by VMW under warranty) was altered by PTP himself (as is his right). Those posts and threads are still available on the F16 forum.

The fact of the matter is that a certain person was actively testing how far he could push it and he has finally reached the threshold after working it hard for months and despite tens of invitations and warnings to take the official routes or accept that his view is not shared by others despite repeated discussions. At this time the danger was that every single thread was hijacked into a one-man crusade to effect a rule change that was simply not supported by a majority of the F16 class members. Even I never got close to pushing it that far.

At a certain point in time the forum authority has got to make good on her policy or be defanged as a paper tiger, this was such a time.

You guys are now making things up about censoring that bare only scant resemblence to the situation at hand. We are in constant communication with the forum owners on how to handle the situation, even before this thing happened.

Wouter

There is such a policy in place.

Wouter

Censorhip is a slippery slope and leads to intellectual dullening of the spirit and always ultimately destroys what it seeks to protect. Discussion permits the development of ideas and the occasional decline of a discussion into a shouting match is the price you pay for for having a free exchange of ideas. Of course there's a time and place for everything and you might not always be able or in the mood to discuss your differing points of view. You should always be able to say: "not now" and if the other party persists in challenging you, that's bad form on their part. But even the PITA types that always vehemently express their opinions serve a purpose. They make you consider your own opinions and when you consider you're right your opinion is all the stronger for it, if you conclude after consideration that you were mistaken, even better, you get to form a new and better opinion. The PITA types even act as a role model: "whatever I do, I don't want to behave like that rectal orifice"

“The clash of ideas is the sound of freedom.” -Ladybird Johnson

"The clash of ideas brings forth the spark of truth." -?

As Inter_Michael rightly said, "censorship" is not the right term. It is about house rules.

I consider the F16 Forum to be THEIRS, and I think they have the right to handle it in any way they want. If it had been a class or group forum of which I was a leader, I would have deleted that thread long before. I thought the class used admirable restraint. They seemed to be waiting for permission from me, although they do not need that -- all they need is a consensus from their own moderators.

For Rick and I, our own primary class forum is the Wave Class. If somebody came into that forum and started harassing the class or badmouthing the boats, he would be kicked out the door.

Why would you bother to get a separate meeting room for your group if you have no way of controlling the people who come into your room?

It is beyond rude to go to a class website and bully them for months on end because some big manufacturer doesn't like their rules.

The people in the F16 forum listened patiently (and then impatiently) to everything he had to say -- over and over and over -- and they made it clear they did not agree with his proposals, but he kept coming back, and, as Wouter said, hijacking every thread he could to again start hammering away.

Most of that is still on the F16 Forum. As I have said several times, I found the debate fascinating, but in a generic kind of way. After that last thread on the subject was deleted (at my suggestion), I immediately started a thread on the Open Forum about weight issues and told Macca he was welcome to carry on the debate there. He has done so to some extent, and I thank him for that, because it IS interesting. And I have complete confidence in the sailors on the Open Forum to stomp on specific class-bashing. Because, who knows, YOUR class could be next. We all need to respect each other's boat choices.

Mark Schneider's post on this thread did a good job of summarizing the weight issues that have been brought up by Macca, and if anybody wants to pursue those, they should do so on the "Relative weight" thread in this OPEN Forum.

As far as "censorship" or "house rules," I think I have learned some things from this thread.
1. People who have their own rooms should be able to police them.
2. I can trust y'all in the Open Forum to balance things out on your own.
3. I still sit Indian style, but I didn't know that was offending American Indians. I thought it was Indian as in India.

Sorry about such a long post. I'm getting as bad as Wouter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

its not length its the quality of whats contained ! so they say <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry yur babble can hardly be compared to Wooter , by the way think he has a sole mate in usa , a certain Doug Lord in SA forums seems to evoke the same response in otherwise reasonable folks that Woouter does

There are some very interesting differences between myself and Doug Lord.

When I was told to create my own class or shut up; I actually created a new catamaran class and grew it to a point were it is becoming an international class and is proving most of my claims that were made earlier.

I have yet to see Doug Lord do anything like that.

Wouter

And just think how many single handed sailors would have gone elsewhere if the weight had been 130kgs........ <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

you guys can't help but oooze this stuff everywhere.

And you wonder why such draconian measures are necessary in the F16 part of the woods when you have such charismatic leaders with quotables such as above.

That was certainly more eloquently worded than I might have been inclined (guess I was self-censoring)...

Mike

the only upsetting thing to me is that you sensor out porn! isnt that why Al Gore invented the interent?

the problem with letting porn on is that it invites all the porn bots, and this forum software doesn't have very good bot protection measures IIRC.

What's that... Jake's got the keys to dad's car? Don't leave without me, I'll be right there! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mary:

You need to rename this Romper Room. (LOL) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My 4 yr grand daughter would love it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> She could play with all the kids. Come on guys. GROW UP!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Doug

Watch out Doug you might get put into a corner.

I'm with Mike and Mary, its just rules to play by not censorship.

Story: A friend hosts a card game. The rules are listed which one is "don't Bitch, if you don't like the rules start your own game and make up your own!"

In our "free" society anyone that doesn't like whatever "rules" that are imposed on this site are welcome to create their own.

Now back to our regular scheduled program.

Clayton aka NOT THE MODERATOR

I am just saying. We all have opinions. And we can agree and disagree. That is what is nice about America. It is just all the childish in fighting that needs to stop. This is a fun forum about the sport we all LOVE right. We do ALL love it, don't we? Lets get back to promoting the sport and stop all the fight (MINE is better than yours). It would be REAL sad if we just had one choice of boat , and that was it, wouldn't it? THANK God we have choices!!

Doug

Personally I feel that a forum made up of people that do nothing but hold hands and sing kumbaya is very boring, even if it is informative.

One of the nice things about forums is people tend to be a lot more honest about how they feel instead of giving some sugared down version so as to not hurt any feelings. We have become way to PC and hyper sensative to EVERYTHING!

I'll take a solid insult over a "let's all be friends" every time.

Badges....Rules...
We don't need no stinking....


Did someone mention a Keg?

Badges! We don't need no stinking....Badges!


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can a reporting system be implemented like other forums? ie. when someone is posting offensive material or being an idiot, they can be reported to the moderators by anyone who is offended. This means that the community is the moderator and the "moderators" just implement the communites desire...

Isn't that the case with ALL forums? Don't people know who the moderators are or who the administrator is and how to contact them? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Glad someone out there still has a sense of humor!

Cheers!

It's pretty easy to miss those four little icons at the bottom of each post and unless you mouse-over them it's not really obvious that the one on the far right is the "Notify Moderator" button.

Ah I see! But it is third icon from the left for me...and it is rather innocuous!

Well the community needs to use that button and the moderators should have some rules about when to implement moderation.

It's an interesting thing about moderation/censorship or whatever you want to call it: no matter how light handed... the effect is that the entire medium (internet forum, in this case) takes on a semblance to the opinion of the moderator(s). Of course, the more heavy handed the moderation/censorship the stronger the medium will reflect the moderator's opinion. The corollary to this is that the more a medium represents the opinion of a limited few (the moderators and those who share the moderators opinions) the less useful and less valuable it becomes as a source of information. I'll forgo demonstrating this with examples, as it is beyond the scope of the discussion. Suffice it to say, I find that I spend time browsing forums and mailing lists inversely proportional to the degree to which they are moderated.

As a quick example, while I can hardly tolerate Wouter and literally vomit every time I read one of his posts, I appreciating that his opinions are welcome here on this site; not because I like vomiting but because his opinions and ways of stating things create conversation that is ultimately more informative than would otherwise exist. The argument can be extended to anyone's least favorite participant. [ ;-P ] The forum is richer for the paucity of moderation. I encourage you to keep it that way.

While I find Darryls text over the top I agree with the sentiment.

We are all grown ups. We can hack it.

I have never been much of a fan of the H16. And I have said so.
BUT, a gizzillion people clearly think I am wrong and my attitude to it has softened hugely over time.
If I had remained quiet and bigoted I might never have grown up about it.

But I would like to know what boat has caused such concern.

Let it go Mary.

I agree, I think the forum is fine as is. People just need to use common courtesy and have thicker skin (handy skill for life, anyway) or use the ignore function for bothersome users. BTW, wouldn't that have worked on the F16 forum if everyone simply set their preferences to ignore a certain argumentative person?

Apart from the obvious “personal abuse of an individual” purely for the sake of that abuse, repeated over and over, I generally find that the most “disliked/argumentative/aggressive” posts are the ones that have elicited from the greatest number of participants, on a thread, the greatest amount of logical, informative, discussion possible. Which is, after all the theoretic objective of these sailing threads/forums, isn’t it? To spread the greatest amount of knowledge to the greatest number of people as possible? (I won’t consider any commercial interests here) If threads that are seen to be “disliked” by just one or two people, who have the power to delete that entire thread, are assigned to oblivion, we must surely be the poorer? I find nothing wrong with any “obnoxious” individual being warned/censured to an appropriate degree by any moderator, but to remove the entire thread is like “burning the books” of writers whom the “state” finds contrary to the “party line” not so much that the content is wrong, but more so because the writer is “disliked”, I just don’t think that we need to go down “that slippery slope”.
In a way, when a complete thread is deleted it not only wipes clean all that was said by who ever was seen to be objectionable but it also loses all the contributions of all the counter arguments and commonsense replies made by the more informed postings which had value in their own right and deserved to be able to be read. Deletion not only rids us of the small percentage of the “bad” it also loses for us the much larger percentage of good.

Yeah mate..... But can it jump.

Sorry, could not resist <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No problem, despite common believe I'm not easily offended.

Wouter

This was a swipe at Doug not you......

okay, that was funny

Okay, I didn't get the joke the first time but now I understand.

Sorry,

Wouter

Wow, I never even noticed those icons before at the bottom of the posts.