rules again

I hate reading rule books, it's like reading the Federal tax code!

Anyway, if anyone has the patience: 3 boats coming in to "C" mark (no gate) under spinnaker. 2 on starboard, 1 on port. The port boat would seems to be behind; except for the overlap thingey.

The question is: how far out can the overlap be established and what's the port/starboard implication.

Additionally, how much room does anyone owe a single handed spin sailor who is trying to do 3 things with 2 hands?

Inquiring minds wanna know. (Good opportunity to inject some humor here BK, Ding)

Overlap is established at the 2 boat length circle. FYI, it does not matter if the overlap is broken inside the circle... If the inside boat came into the circle with an overlap, then room to round in a seaman like way needs to be given regardless. Bouy room will overide Port / Starboard inside the 2 boat lenght circle.


"
Answer - Enough for him to make a bouy rounding as he would do without other boats around (Without f#$K ups)

At the speeds we travel though, I would be calling for room well before the 2 boat lenght circle. However it does not come into effect until the 2 boat lengths

Another rule many sailors are not aware off is that a boat coming upwind on Port must give way to a boat coming downwind on starboard.

I have had quiet a few close calls with boats both rounding the bottom mark on port when I am coming in hot on starbord with the kite up and boats coming into the top mark on port when we are coming around and setting the kite on starboard.

It amazes me that many people on the race course do not realise their obligations in these situations. If you mess up here, you can kill some one.

Tiki, know EXACTLY how you feel at these mark roundings. In theory you shouldn't have to worry about the other boats and just do your thing -- which needs three hands. However, in practice you end up doing the mark rounding while keeping an eye on the other boats and inevitably you f#$k up like Tornado Alive said. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Pete,
Were you involved in this scenario? And, if so, which boat were you on -- port or one of the starboard ones? And was it buoys to port?

In this case I'm not sure the jury would give special consideration to a solo under spin. It could be argued that if you can't get the boat around as another boat/team on the course then you've f'd up. I would expect a solo under spin to get the same consideration as any other boat on the course, nothing more nothing less.

You should note that the ACTUAL rules are something like 6 pages in that book. The rest are prescriptions, definitions, appendixes, and special rules for different kinds of racing. Read 'em!

Coming into the mark on Starboard is a strong approach to a downwind gate. It gets scary sometimes though with the closing speeds and things it takes to keep a spin boat under control during the rounding (and port boats that haven't read the rules)

Assuming that you are rounding the mark to port, the port boat has to give way to both starboard boats that have overlap - even if you're only overlapped with only one of them. It makes no difference if you are single handed - you should be able to manage your boat...absolutely no special rules for someone who chooses to sail single handed. Not only do you have to yield room, you have to yield right away and they should have all the room needed to make a fair rounding.

Though the port boat does have to yield to the starboard boats, it's not game over. The best approach for the port boat in this situation is, borrowing one of Rick's phrases, "slow down to win". Take your time, go a little deep, get your douse under control, let the starboard boats do their thing. You can bet on them making a slow fat rounding on the upwind side of the mark since they have to gybe and get the douse taken care of. If you prepare for the rounding and get your stuff together well, you'll be able to shoot right over them with an "enter wide, exit close" rounding strategy.

I think you are right.. and you could argue time lost and the inherent difficulty in doing it solo is accounted for by the DPN. (however, this gets dicey when thinking about the fact that there is only one number for the F16)

the whole scenario makes me nervous sailing solo though because sailign solo with the spin, you really have to have your sh-- together to not cause significant issue with the other boats.

"You should note that the ACTUAL rules are something like 6 pages in that book. The rest are prescriptions, definitions, appendixes, and special rules for different kinds of racing. "

My point exactly! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You're right, of course. Where would one find a basic and concise rule book. I am not going to become a "sea lawyer"!

What would be more fun is: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...9&an=0&page=0#Post144349

IMO Jake is spot on with the Rick White quote. Slow down to win.

When I raced the blade Uni, I made a point to myself that I will go into C mark on starboard, ALWAYS

I learned that C mark roundings when solo, its not too bad to overstand the line by one or two boat lengths. This way you take your spin down, and then you start heating upwind and you exit the mark nice and tight.

On the overlaps, they can occur anywhere, not just at the (2 length) zone, and it's also which boats actions caused the overlap. If the port boat in the example had it outside the zone, the stdb's are going to have to give some room. But if port tries surging in there too late, inside the zone, well that's what the rules are trying to prevent. But if I was on stbd, I sure wouldn't like it if a singlehander on port took me down with him a couple of boat lengths, instead of him prudently taking down the kite sooner, accepting he can't maintain the overlap.. esp. if the boats I was beating to the mark are now happily zipping through the gap that's been created.

I think port had rights, but chose the prudent course and doused his spin early. In any case, I don't think he lost ground.

I am not a cutthroat kinda guy and would rather lose a couple lengths than accidently foul someone- or worse- capsize on top of them. And like I have learned- not only can you gain position by slowing down on purpose to cut inside but you also give yourself a little more time to really figure out the situation and can make your next move with more confidence.
But then again, who knows if I were in a close race or if I raced more. I guess if I raced more I would have more confidence in my close quarters sailing and felt more comfortable with my split second application of the rules.
I have seen too much of the chest-beating screaming and yelling and that just kills it for me. I have sailed with someone who let no opportunity to yell at anyone pass (even at powerboats if they were even marginaly too close just when sailing, not racing). That just kills the whole spirit for me and makes me want to go home <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oops! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> The single boat was coming in on starboard from astern, would have had to jybe, douse the spin and round. The two other boats were on port, well ahead, probably could have doused and rounded without incident. I think the two length rule protects the port boats! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

TT, help! How do you remember this?

The real problem is that this stuff happens to me all the time!

They do protect the port boats (or other give way boats) to a certain extent! If you don't use your right of way nice and early to block a guy a little, no fair jamming him out at the last second is sort of the point. I guess that's why they simplified the rules (!) to keep everybody focused on actually going around the racecourse, and if a normally right of way boat can't close the deal before the zone, just give a little room and keep going around. Of course getting everybody to act graciously is why rules are needed?
BTW, the UK-Halsey website has great little animated rules quizzes, with links to the relevant rules...

Not quite right, but close.

It's enough room to make a rounding, but not a "racing rounding"; You cannot ask for enough water to come in wide so you can round up and cut in close to the mark.

Room means enough room to get around the mark; this means (in theory) boat width plus enough to clear the dagger boards from the anchor line, plus enough to make the turn. You cannot force the boats outside you wide so you can make a "good" rounding.

It's not much of a difference, but it's a enough to make a difference in the protest room.

"Play the rules" HERE , better than reading the Federal tax code.

Overlapped at the Zone situations

Especially interesting the first one:

Thanks, I'll give it a shot.

Try here for the whole shot...

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/0_titel_e.htm

Pete,

Can I assume you are sailing your "Blade" which has daggerboards???? And it is a "Port" course.

1)A daggerboard boat pivots at on/its boards

2) You must give enough room for a "seamanshiply rounding"

You are only going to get 15' maybe 20'(if I am feeling generous) from me ... thats all ... not 32' or more.

You hit me ... I do care a flag and will fly it ...

You are crazy sir if you try to push that with a fleet of experienced A-Fleeters. I had a fleet of H17's hang me on the mark when they only allowed me 8' to round one time w/ my TheMightyHobie18 ... I wasn't going to T-bone anyone as the TheMightyHobie18's bow would take most of the damage. Lost my Telocat and was so pissed I damn near pulled out my knife to cut/deflate the mark between my hulls ... but then I thought better of it....

Remember: To finish first ... first you have too finish. Boats w/ holes go really slow

PS: Watched my friends ED Mills and John McLaughlin racing their "Blades" this weekend while I was on RC ... AWESOME!!! That is some ride you have there ... I may have to get me one of those machines!!!

HarryMurphey
H18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX w/spin /#86, CRAC

Murphy.
You carry a flag? If I am not mistaken only boats that are 20+ in length are required to carry a protest flag.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.
If you have ROW inside the TBL zone, you can use the TBL zone to make a tactical rounding, hence entering wide, exiting close. Anything outside that is NOT a seamanship rounding.

That being said, Murph you OWE the ROW its two boat lengths. If its an F16 you must give 32ft of room. If its an I20 that would be 40ft.

Note to self:
Never share the race course with the previous poster.

You are right, of course, but I think this was an unfortunate change in rules that did not take catamarans and fast planing monohulls (like 49ers and other skiffs) into consideration. I think that protest flags are even more important for us than for big boats.

At the speeds we travel when it is windy, and the way we come together and separate so quickly (like mating fruit flies), it is sometimes difficult to hear somebody who is hailing "Protest." So a VISUAL signal like a protest flag can be very helpful.

I do not understand why they eliminated the requirement for a protest flag on the small boats.

The thing some dutch sailors do (especially non-spin cats) is drum on the side of the hull to make you heard.
Sometimes its much easier to hear than shouting, try it out.

Where does that come from?; You do not have to give them the length of the boat x 2 to round.

Try to "push" what?

yeah, doesn't sound fun

Gentlemen,

READ the RULES ... KNOW the RULES

I've raced in OVER 150+ Hobie Points Regettas ... 150+ "open Regettas (all 2 day events) plus ??? 1 day events!!!! DON'T TRY what you are proposing up here in Div11

Lets say you do do what you propose ... I may let you through then cut inside of you and roll you leaving you in "dirty air ... and the guys following me will do the same thing!!! You will be just sitting there trying to make a 360 degree turn ... isn't that called a PENALTY TURN???

The winning tactic is to come in 5-10 boat lengths above the mark on Starboard w/ no other rules in effect ... jybe ... get you boat speed up and then make a 270 degee turn!!!

I would love to share a race course w/ you guys ... because I would WIN!!! Up here I'm usually in the hunt ... but in third place ...

Harry

I think most of us do know the rules;

Why would you want to come in 5-10 boats from the mark; that will give room for around 10+ boats inside you (8x16b feet is 118 feet / 8 gives room for around 10). madness. You will get loads of dirty and be well to leeward. Not a good plan at all.

You come in at about 3 lengths so you can execute the gybe just outside the 2 BL zone. If you don't you are buried in a big regatta.



Sounds to me like you think you know the rules.

Not true - we had this situation come up recently and, previously, I too thought that the port boat only had to give just enough room for the starboard boat to round. This is NOT the case. Port has NO rights coming into a downwind mark with starboard inside boats in this situation. I don't have time this morning to quote the rules...someone help me out?

the condescension knows no bounds...

aaa screw the workin'. Here are the rules that apply to this situation. First Rule 18 and it's exlusions:

Rule 18 (nutshell version);


Most people stop reading there and incorrectly think this applies to a boat that is gybing - but keep reading..



- RULE 16 IS EXCLUDED FOR THE STARBOARD BOAT WHO IS GYBING TO ROUND THE MARK if there is impact, it's port's fault. Port has to do more than just allow starboard room - port is obliged to stay out of starboard's way while she rounds.

this is also noteable


Note; this does not mean that port has rights - only that starboard can't be a putz when rounding the mark and if starboard fouls the spinnaker drop and sails past the mark, they are protestable.

Nutshell conclusion;

A starboard boat coming into c-mark inside the 2 length zone has all the rights in the world to round without consideration for the port boat. However, she can't sail past the layline to the mark. Port needs to stay clear

Perhaps I can shed some light, since I was the starboard boat.
First off it was great for me just to be out there and competitively
sailing and racing boat for boat with some F16's. Pete, Stefan+Lisa and I
were battling back and fourth all day. Pete and Stefan could get me windward
and I would always reel them downwind and sometimes upwind. Coming down to the C mark on this
particular leg Pete and Stefan were ahead of me, when they gibed to starboard to run out before there last gibe to port for the mark, I noticed
they seemed to both stall and there boats both started to bounce up and down, I figured a wind shift which was bad for them but me still on starboard would lift me into the mark which it did. Now at the C mark
I was not even thinking 2 boat length, rights on who or anything I was thinking Stephan and Pete already on port heating it up and coming in,
I still had to douse and round so I choose to duck to do my stuff and beat them
on the next downwind leg which would of been the finish. Instead my trapeze line broke on the beat and I went swimming.
Just goes to show you that the best laid plans can still go splash.

Wow, reading this thread certainly is all over the map...

I don't have time to look up the relevant rules, but have to agree with Jake. At a Dave Perry seminar a few years back, he spent something like 30-45 minutes discussing the differences between same-tack overlap and opposite-tack overlap.

Short version:

Same-tack overlap: inside has to make a seaman-like rounding

Opposite-tack overlap: starboard has the right to make a tactical rounding

Now, I don't sail a spin boat, so I can't answer how practical it is for a Tiger to come in at two lengths, flying the chute, at full speed and have the ability to douse, gybe and get around the mark without going well beyond what my Hobie 16 coming in on port would need. I just try to stay out of the way...

Mike

I can't quote rules, but I know absolutely that you are right, Jake. That's why it is so advantageous to come in to the leeward mark on starboard (when it is marks to port). The starboard boats not only have inside overlap, they also are the right-of-way boats. The port-tack boats not only have to give the starboard-tack boats room to round, they have to give them enough room to make a TACTICAL mark rounding (enter wide, exit close).

It would be different, of course, if rounding the mark to starboard. Then the port-tack boats would have the inside overlap, but would not be right-of-way boats, so the starboard boats would only have to give them enough room to get around the mark without hitting it.

By the way, all these rules would take on a different complexion if the mark was a big iron bell buoy instead of a nice soft vinyl ball. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good point Mary, I was only referring to the case mentioned, but the complete Dave Perry synopsis is more like this:

Same-tack overlap: inside has to make a seaman-like rounding

Opposite-tack overlap, Port inside (such as when rounding to starboard): Port has to make a seaman-like rounding

Opposite-tack overlap, Starboard inside (such as when rounding to port): Starboard has the right to make a tactical rounding

I still don't see how it's practical for a spin boat to be smoking into the mark within two hull lengths and expect to have a decent rounding, I don't think the rules account for the boat speeds of cats, especially spin cats.

Mike

In our regattas we widen the circle out to 5 boat lengths in the sailing instructions. 2 boat lengths doesn't give you a lot of time to sort these things out at the speeds cats are moving.

Interesting solution.

I find it hard to believe you hot shots are unaware that the 2 boat length circle is frequently bigger.

Flame on

aa

If you want to see R18 discussions and analysis you can try SAILX Protest Room

The Protest Room is where SAILX users go to file protests. A protest to be valid has to be documented with a small video (the replay of the incident). Once filed everyone can give his/her point of view and state the facts according to the rule book.
Moderators and general users can replay the incident, slow motion, pause, etc, and all discussion is kept in a forum thread like this.

(Sorry to hijack the thead)
aestela.

Now if you want to protest, how this, during the first GYC race, leg one to A,
a situation of me on starboard another F16(SS) on port, a clear collision course.
I hail starboard No response from other boat, like hold your course or anything. Before collision I give way and duck.
I think the rules are there so two parties on two separate boats basically
know well in advance what is the right and responsible thing to do.
At this time I am not ready to competitively race with SS so ducking doesn't bother me even though I had clear rights.
But it may also mean that at some point of some race and I was faced with a choice to help or hinder said individual l may choose to hinder.
You don't earn brownie points for the future when clearly ignoring ROW.
But anyways it is still great to be out on the water sailing and competing with my friends. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Cough cough, Jake explained what I was saying in much better detail quoting the rules.

Dont pay much attention to me, what do I know? I mean after all Murphy has been sailing 15+ yrs. LMAO!

If the ROW boat, chooses to use the TWO BOAT LENGTH zone he can use it to his advantage, making a tactical mark rounding.

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up. Here is some interesting reading from the ISAF

CASE 84
Rule 18.1 Rounding and Passing Marks and Obstructions: When this Rule Applies.
Discussion of the phrase ‘about to round or pass’, room

Question:
When is a boat ‘about to round or pass’ a mark within the meaning of rule 18.1?

Answer:
The phrase ‘about to round or pass’ has never been defined precisely, nor can it be. In approaching a mark, there is no exact point at which a boat become ‘about to round or pass’ it. Almost always a boat two hull lengths from a mark is ‘about to round or pass’ it, but this is sometimes so at a greater distance too. Not only is the distance from the mark a factor, but the boat’s speed is also important, and other factors such as the conditions of wind and current an the amount of sail handling required before or during the rounding may also be relevant. Moreover the nearer the boat is to the mark the more definitely she is ‘about to round or pass’it. The answer to the question depends upon the particular circumstances of each situation.

Regards
Chet

There is nothing in the current rule-set that specifies how much room the inside boat is permitted. It DOES provide definition for the diameter of the "2 length" circle in which several of the rounding rules come into play - but "room" to round a mark is exactly that with no additional dimension.

and oh yeah - the current 2005-2008 rules/prescriptions are pretty close to being replaced!

Hey Chet,

Not sure of your point here. Do you mean the SIs allow it to be bigger, or that people's perception on the water makes it bigger than it really is?

I have personally seen SIs that use 3 lengths, but nothing more. Not saying it's a bad idea, just haven't seen more than 3 lengths used. However, it is extremely rare, in the northeast US at least, to use anything other than the standard 2 lengths.

I also think people tend to exaggerate the size of the cirle depending on their viewpoint at the time of the incident, so I'm not sure if it would actually help to open it up.

Mike

That's true, and it was true at the time of the seminar I referenced. However, the interpretation of the applicable rules basically works out that if you're an inside ROW boat (starboard), you can take a tactical rounding.

Still, I haven't heard from any spin boat hotshots whether they would attempt this maneuver in 18+ knots of wind.

Mike

But that is nothing to do with the room requited TO ROUND THE MARK.

Yah, I know you guys think I'm an IDIOT ...just because I'm not computer literate doesn't mean I do not know the rules ...

Read "Jakes" Post carefully about layline!!!! I think he proved my point.

First; by coming in "above the mark outside the 2 Boatlength circle you simplify the situation to a Port-Starb crossing ... the boat on "port" has NO rights and MUST stay clear. Agreed???

Secondly; After you jybe you will be able to come into the mark "powered up" ... under controll ... and make a nice rounding of turning 270degrees, effectively slingshoting around the mark ... exiting with alot of speed!!!

Know remember what "Jake" posted about the layline ... so let look at the "coming in ON the starboard layline"

First; you come screaming in yelling at the top of your lungs and speeding along physically ... do you really think that you can "douse the spin" and round the mark inside the 2 boatlength circle??? Most likely your speed will carry you well beyond the circle, especially if there is any wind at all!!!

Secondly; you will be trying to make a 360 degree turn ... all at once ... my 25+ years of catamaran racing experience tells me that is really SLOW!!!! You are trying to do TWO manuevers at once ... I find that with my "mear mortal and limited brain power" I am much better if I concentrate on one thing at a time and do it well! How about you guys ... are you guys that good???

How about failure to avoid the collision clause in the "Racing Rules" ... yes you where on Starboard w/ an inside overlapbut does that give you the right to come in "out of controll" ...drive over the layline ... forcing boats who are with-in the 2 boatlength circle to drive off ... maybe ... maybe not ... We quickly get back to the definition of a technical/seamanship rounding of a Mark ... I personally wouldn't want to take the "Starboard boat's position to a "Protest Hearing" especially if there is boat damage!

So if I'm the port boat what would I do ... I'm most likely going to slow down and let your speed carry you past the mark ... next when you attempt the "hard turn" I will "heat my boat up, duck your sterns ... feeding you a BIG knuckle of dirt air to boot ... slowing you down even further ... sling-shot the rounding, leaving you in the dust ... And if anyone is on my sterns they mostlikely will do the same your are now on the outside eating "dirty air as the train of boats leaves you behind ... hows that sound

When I started racing ... no flag ... no protest allowed! The first question you were asked was "Did you display your flag?" And I saw some racers who would take advantage of boats w/ out flags, fouling them knowing full well they couldn't be protested!!! So to this day I still have my flag slung under my boom in a tube ... ready for use ... And I have only used it once ... in all the races I have sailed!!!

Harry

PS: the name is MURPHEY ... if you are going to call me an idiot at least get my name correct

Jeez! Calm down dude. Nobody was screaming, there was no collision. Just some friends enjoying a nice day on the water.

For the record, our A cat fleet has some new saiors and we (the tail end of the F16 fleet) are starting to pick some of those new guys off!

Harry
I am having trouble with your turns. I am guessing that when you state a 270 degree turn you are actually just heading up from a broad reach to a beat. This would be 90 degrees. A boat enters on port and leaves on port. And the 360 degree turn you refer to is actually 180. A boat entering on starboard and leaving on port. 360 would put you back on the heading you started at.
A 270 degree turn would be entering the mark zone on starboard, gybing over to port and then tacking onto starboard, all while circling the mark.
Are there catsailors with the nads to sail on starboard back into the fleet of down-winding port-tacking spin-boats?
Something about right, dead-right?

This isn't directed at anyone specific, and isn't a rant (just something to consider), so everyone please remain calm...

One thing I have witnessed, especially in light air, is that some spin boat sailors don't / can't appreciate how slow the H16s, 17s, and 18s are, and come in "hot" with nowhere to go. The reason is, we're drifting down to the mark, while the spin boats are cruising. They figure we'll be long gone, but they are so much faster, we're still bobbing around just trying to get there. And if the air is light enough, depending on the positioning of the boats, sometimes we CAN'T get out of the way in time to give you room.

Frustrating for everyone...

Mike

Murphy, ever since that infamous day rounding Cape Canaveral when two teams went inside the no-go buoys around the launch pad, and the protest was tossed because the protesting team didn't fly a flag and the N20 was 2 inches too long to fall within the new "no protest flag required rule" even though the facts were found that the teams didn't sail the proper course and sailed a short-cut that the race committee could have and should have protested the sailors on....I too carry a protest flag every race....but that's another story!

With regards to the c-mark rights a port boat has over a starboard boat; If you are on port at a rounding and have contact with a starboard boat at the mark, port is at fault and will be tossed. I've studied this quite a bit and in almost every historical precedent I've read, the starboard boat actually loses the protest unless there was contact. The tricky thing to prove is that the port boat did not give enough room to round the mark - only if there was a collision was it evident that the port boat did not yield enough room and port is at fault. Port is really the only one in this scenario with any course options since starboard is committed to passing between the port boat and the mark (with rights). It's a strange scenario, yes...but it's how this rule plays out historically.

A starboard boat can physically gybe-douse around a mark. It's a little tricky to do cleanly but it can be done. It's almost a certainty that the door will be left wide open for the port boat to round close and get the windward advantage in this scenario - so although port has no rights in this situation, there is an option to regain the tactical advantage if the maneuver is timed correctly. If starboard blows the rounding and sails past the layline, the correct action is not to hit them, but to protest them (if it's even worth it after the advantage you just gained on them).

Maybe I should qualify my opinion alittle
1) I will not get or cause anyone else to be HURT/INJURED through my actions or inactions
2) I will not cause damage to another persons boat through my actions or inactions.
3) I try not to put myself in situations where someone else defines the undefined rules/measurements ie: how much room is required to round a mark in a seamanly manner... their definition could and mostlikely is different from mine.

The scenerio I see here is not the port boat hitting the starboard boat but the opposite ... The starboard boat coming in too hot ... ON the starboard layline ( or even below - super hot) ... screwing up the rounding ... going 2-3 boatlengths past the mark ... then T-Boning the port tack boat!!!! At the protest hearing saying ... "but I was on Starboard !!!" At our closing speeds someone can be hurt if there is a collision ....

So I sail a little more conservately ... for me winning isn't worth it if someone gets hurt

These are my rules ... I try to keep racing on a FUN level and not get too "amped up".

I also have a voice that if I "hail" someone at the leeward mark people turn around at the windward mark and go "What's Harry yelling about"

Also if you are running the starboard layline w/spin and boats have rounded in front of you and are now beating upwind on port you can have a head on collision if a puff hits and the spin boat drives off the wind ... Now lets say one of the boats beating upwind decided to tack onto starboard ... both are now on the same tack ... most likely the spin boat will not see the boat starting to cross below the them ... now we have an upwind-downwind/same tack scenerio ...

I just see too many dangers/red flags to justify sailing the Starboard layline ... and "pushing" the rules to the extreme. And if you are ON the starboard layline can you really make a proper technical rounding???

Now if you are sailing in a fleet of VERY good sailors and are good enough to douse/round in 1-2 boats lengths .... have at it ... I'm just not that good (Wouter ... Rolf ... Scooby Simon ... Robbie Daniels, all those gentlemen are ... I'm a pragmatist/realist and a mear mortal )

Harry

Harry awesome post man. Good riddens.

BUT with all do respect to you and the names you mentioned; after sailing this last weekend with Robbie Daniels I honestly do not think the fellas mentioned in the same sentence are in the same league. No doubt each is great in there own style of sailing, but Robbie Daniels is in a league of his own. He is #2 to represent the US in the Olympics on the Tornado. That being said IMO he is a step above us all mear mortals.

Yah, I've known Robbie since he was sailing a H21 and had hair!!! He is a gentleman and has always taken the time to educate me on the finer points of catamaran sailing. Ask him about our mutual friend Mr Glenn Ross ... who was my sailing partner until he became too good and bought a Mystere 5.5 from Robbie and Jill ... then he crewed with Robbie on the Tornado ...

It's been awhile since Robbie has come up to the Chesapeak and gave us some lessons ... Mark Schnieder, myself and all the other CRAC members would like to see him!!! The yacht club I belong to, Rock Hall YC is hosting an Regetta on June 21st and 22nd ... we have (4) F16's committed to coming, among them Mr Ed Mills and Mr John "Hollywood" McLaughlin. We would be estatic if the F16's "made class", please pass on my personal invitation for him to come and attend ... We could ask Constantine to lend him his Tiepan as Constantine will be unable to attend... And he could surprise Glenn ...

Harry

Yah, it's time for Robbie to see Glenn ... please tell him that for me ... It's time ...

Harry

Neither Wouter or I have posted our opinions on the topic, so I dont see why we are used as an argument. That is unless you are making a point here.
On the Tornado you dont have time to douse within the two boatlength circle unless you are there alone in weak winds and coming in deep. Even then it would be hard to make a good rounding. Staying out of trouble is fast, and the best sailors stay out of troubly by being around the marks first. That is my experience. (But even then they are sometimes run down by other boats coming in after them)

Interesting how much room there is for discussion and interpretions on the racing rules of sailing.

Rolf,

I'm sorry if I offended you (or Wouter) Robbie is the finest sailor I know and that is not just because he is 2nd on the Tornado here in the USA... he is smart ... kind ... talented and a gentleman ... as are you.

If "mear mortals" like me and others try to sail too your level the most likely result will be us screwing up and getting someone else hurt! That is my point.

Though I have never had the pleasure of competing against Wouter and you, I look forward to the day I can meet Wouter and you, and shake your hand, sir.

Your admirer and friend,
Harry Murphey

PS: you can build your own F16, can't you??? What plans would you recommend?

The spin boat wouldn't be dousing within the 2 length circle. The douse would have started much earlier than that and, if timed properly, would be finishing up as the boat gybes. You can make a decent rounding gybing around the mark (or within one boat-length of the mark) but it takes some coordination and practice. Spin up or down makes no difference to the rules situation.

I use this maneuver quite often to try and hold an advantage and it usually works if the gybe-douse is clean.

Harry,

no worries, I am not offended, just curious. You should not mention me (or Wouter) in the same sentence as Robbie. He is at olympic level, Wouter and me are hobbyists and weekend warriors. I thought you were being sarcastic becouse both Wouter and I are very vocal and quick to flag our opinions, which dont mean that we are 100% correct all the time. Everybody should do their own evaluation on how much sense there are in posts here!
A professional sailor rarely have the time to post here as he is too busy sailing.

A professional would do what he could to avoid damage to equipment or injuries, but accidents do happen. Hitting another boat or forcing it into a "no options" position is poor sportsmanship in my eyes.


About F16 building, if you really want to build a boat, go with the Blade. But that is a topic more suitable in the F16 forum or the homebuilders forum.

Thanks Rolf and Jake for answering the question about a spin boat coming into the circle on starboard.

One thing that I 1000% agree with, that translates to all classes, is that the guys who are good avoid conflict basically at all costs. I've had many, many, many conversations with Wally, Cliff and others at the top of the H16 fleet. You never see them in a protest, because even if they screw up colosally (which is rare), and find themselves in the middle of the fleet, they'd rather duck everyone else and focus on getting back to the top of the fleet, rather than monkey around calling for rights. I'm sure they do their share of calling for room, etc. but the point is, they don't push it because when you start down that road, you're focusing on the wrong stuff and you'll lose the fleet. Anyone who's ever raced in a fleet of 60+ boats can appreciate how fast the train goes by, and when you screw up, you count the number of boats you lose by 5's or 10's.

Mike

In support of Jake's comments. While sailing the Tiger Worlds in Cangas, Spain there were two ways to go down wind and the middle was avoided. So half the fleet was coming in on Port and Half on Starboard. We were rounding five deep many times and there was not too much chaos, actually. The wind was up and the starboard boats easily rounded within the two boat length circle will keeping inside rights. As Jake insinuated it does take teamwork and understanding to do correctly.

A right of way boat coming into the 2 boat circle and keeping rights in the circle is allowed a tactical rounding. If rights change at the 2 boat lengths the new right of way boat is allowed a seaman-like rounding. Notice if rights are going to change when you move into the circle that will decide it for you while you are a long way out.

Later,
Dan