Tethered to the boat?

"This has always been a number ONE rule for distance racing, or any other sailing: NEVER LET GO OF THE BOAT! In fact tethering oneself to the boat should almost be a requirement." (Per Rick White in his coverage of the 2008 T500)

This has been a discussion before. I know how I feel about it.... what about everyone else?

I'm not really clear on the question.

The question is in regards to what Rick White said in his coverage today of the T500.

Do you think that the sailors in a W1k/T500 race should be required to be tethered to the boat?

(I would go edit the question, however it won't allow me to)

Rick who? And what did he say?

post edited to refect more complete information.

You should also have optional as a choice in my opinion. While I don't think its a bad idea, people shouldn't be forced to do it.

I'm still not clear. Are we voting on whether or not we think it should definitely be a requirement or "almost" should be a requirement?

And is it whether tether lines should just be required to be on the boats or that the sailors should be required to actually USE them?

I can see requiring the boats in a distance race to HAVE them, but there is no way to enforce making people use them.

I said tethers should be used. WE did a whole story on this in the past. No reason not to. Someone will die, if they don't
Rick

Ok, well I started this hoping to spur an educated discussion regarding this topic but nobody (outside of rick/mary) seems willing to put forth an opinion. I know this has been discussed before but it was several years ago.

The question is: Do you think the organizers should REQUIRE sailors to be tethered to the boat in races like the W1k and the T500? This is NOT chicken lines like most of us use, this is a straight up tether like the offshore boats use.

I for one, having been there would NOT want to be tethered to the boat. I was almost separated while rounding Cape Hatteras b/c my "skippers" route of egress involved jumping on my back like a monkey. This forced me underwater and under the "down" hull. Had I been tethered I would not have almost gotten separated but I know I would have untethered myself as I would have been being dragged along by the boat.

Additionally, I can see the tether getting in the way, tangled and causing me to not be able to take my preferred, most efficient or NECESSARY route around the boat during maneuvers. This could cause problems that might cause you to flip. Given the fact that we are going to be required to use traps with detachable hooks it's obvious that US Sailing and other governing bodies see entrapment as a real danger and anything that might cause that should be avoided.

Scenario: Spinnaker up, single trapped, big waves (6'+). Crew is trapped aft of the skipper. Surf down a wave, skipper fails to negotiate properly and stuff the bows hard. Your tether point is a central location in the middle of the tramp for use on both sides. You've just been launched forward and the boat flips. Where do you end up? Say you flip on your side, now your tether starts in the center of the boat but you've gone around the shroud and since the tether is a fixed length you're hanging by your tether from the shroud.

Or go more violent: I envision flying forward during a FAST pitch pole. tether pulls tight, boat goes over but instead of being free, your swung back into the boat by your momentum. Or you end up hanging between the hulls with the boat on it's side.

Or a situation like what happened to Chris Sawyer. clocking 23-25 mph with the kite up, trap loop breaks, you fall in and you get drug. What if the boat does not flip? I've drug behind mono's sailing before for fun. It does NOT take much speed for dragging to go from fun to dangerous. People will say, "but we'll use quick disconnects..." Try reaching your hands underwater while being drug at 5kts, let alone more. PDF or not, you're screwed if you can't get free.

I've been in both these scenarios and:
#1 I'll never sail with a skipper that I don't trust in a distance race again.
#2 I will and do use chicken lines that will release
#3 I won't tether. I think I'd rather float than fight to keep breathing. Several teams used rhino's for safety purposes and I'd rather that than this alternative.

As I sit here I can think of so many scenarios where you could get trapped by a tether....

Nevermind; I don't want to get involed in a discussion that asks whether or not you agree with the comments of the person who has provided the forum upon which you are asking for criticism on his comments.

I thought the "chicken lines" did keep you tethered to the boat. Am I mistaken? I've been thinking of clipping onto my mainsheet when solo sailing. Is this a bad idea?

There is no disrespect meant here.... this is a serious question with serious implications. Something that those of us who have and will do this race and others like it again at some time might have to face. I envision being in some of the situations I've been in w/o a tether and wonder how it could change the outcome for better or worse if there was one involved.

Agree or disagree, there is a basis for that feeling, what is the logic from whence it developed? There in lies my question.

I got the impression that you did NOT want discussion on the subject, since you said there had already been a lot of discussion about this topic. I think discussion and debate about this is great.

For my part, I just did not understand the question on the survey. That's all. Purely a semantics thing. Surveys are very difficult to phrase properly, just like political polls.

If the question had asked, "Do you think sailors should be required to USE tethers on long distance races?", I would have had to answer no, because I don't think it is possible to REQUIRE anyone to use a tether or enforce that. But my answer would have made it sound like I am opposed to tethers, which I am definitely not.

If the question had asked, "Do you think sailors in long distance races should be required to have tethers aboard and connected to the boat?", I would have said "Yes." I think all sailors should be encouraged to use them offshore, and I think a tether should be part of the safety equipment.

It's kind of like life jackets. You can require all the sailors to HAVE them, but there is no way to enforce that they are going to actually WEAR them when they are out of sight.

That's silly, Gary. Our opinions don't carry any more weight on this forum than anybody else's. We LOVE to see debate on topics like this. Who cares what I think or what Rick thinks.

And with all the offshore sailing that you do, you are one of the best people to comment on this subject. You probably have in the past, but it never hurts to do it again.

Here's my $.02

We were mid-atlantic, sailing a 29' cat westbound. Checking for chafe on the foredeck on a beautiful moon-lit night, boat speed moderate, waves moderate, motion almost nil. As I started working my way aft, a small wave gave the boat a lurch and my leg pushed against the lifeline, producing maybe a 1 or 2 lb push. I was shaken then, and have been shaken ever since. What would have happened without that 1 lb push?

Regards
Chet

Some of the A-Cat sailors around here tether to the boat when they are out practicing. They use a Carabineer secured to their harness so they can clip the mainsheet in for the tether.

Dan DeLave

Half of the folks that might chime in on this topic are racing in the Tybee500 at the moment.

It is interesting about the a-cat guys, I've been wondering about how I can safely go out and practice on my own.

you may be talking more about simply righting a boat (even though them A-cats weigh less than my lunch) but The new SPOT GPS system is very cool and not so pricey ($150+ $99-$150 year service)

SPOT GPS USA TODAY ARTILCE

Not worried about righting it - worried about falling off it and getting separated. For the good of the boat and of me.

Area D South - even superhero types are suseptible. Robbie falls of new A-cat in moderate conditions on the way to the first start, A-cat sails away until crashing into a seawall. End of event for Robbie. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

2 weeks ago i saw a guy fall off his Dart18 and it took off. I picked him up and chased down his cat.

Later he talked about using a retractable dog leash as a tether..

What do people usually use and where do they teather to?

Ditto here!!! I took a P16 out last night by myself and even though I can right the boat single handed, I still tethered myself to the boat in the same method that Dan had mentioned.

See, I'm not looking at this as an "I'm macho, I don't need it" thing. It looks to me like more of a safety hazard than a preventative.

Here is typical equipment used for tethers.
http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d312000/e310335.asp

Note that on big boats the tether is intened to never allow you to leave the boat. You should be tied such that you can't make it all the way to the water. On our boats we're required to get out beyond the hull, hence typical tether mentality does not work here.

So... say Robbie was tethered... but the boat didn't flip. How does that story end?

I tried a tether a few times and it was easy to use and didn't get in the way. For length probably 10'?

I think that the potential of injury caused by a tether is far less than the potential life or boat savings. I just can't see any obvious ways that the tether could hold you under. Worst case scenario, just slip off your harness. (if you wear your harness over top of everything else)

I think in that particular case with the carabineer and mainsheet setup, in moderate conditions, the boat would have rounded up and flipped, saving his event. I think it should be left to the sailor's discretion to use a tether-like setup or not. Sometimes I'd want to have that second chance to get back to the boat (I used something like that on the 4.3 for distance racing) and other times I can see offshore Tybee/Worrell sailors (one of which I am not) absolutely not wanting to be secured to a cartwheeling boat that is tumbling downwind in a whiteout squall. That's why there are locator beacons and strobes on every sailor and not attached to the boat.

You could use a quick release that could be undone under load to escape being dragged.

We used something similar to the Wichard system. We took about 15 feet of 5/16" line, removed the core, inserted bungee inside, and attached a snap shackle to the end. The bungee kept the line length short on the boat, and snap shackle allowed you to release yourself under tension if you got tangled up. Never fell off the boat and used them...

I know this is a fear that people seem to have, but has anybody ever heard of this actually happening to anybody -- boat cartwheeling multiple times while they were tethered?

People know the dangers of what they are doing. If they don't want to be attached and want to watch their boats sail away with out them then I say let em'. I think being tethered is an excellent idea when there isn't another boat, or help readily available, but requiring something is another story.

It is all in the way you word it I guess.
Would or should it be "Suggested"? "Recommended"? or "Required"?

If it is required and the tether itself causes an unfortunate outcome as outlined in previous posts is the organizing authority liable because they "Required" the tether that caused the problem?

If you burn up in a firey car crash, is the government liable beacause it is against "the law" to drive a car without a fastened seatbelt?

Maybe we should also include a rule that sailors be "required" to wear helmets.... I'm sure many more sailors have been knocked silly by the unexpected jybe than have been seperated from their boat because of not having a tether.

We could argue both sides of the issue till we are blue in the face (no pun intended for you cold water sailors) and still not have the perfect one size fits all answer.

I say that the regatta organizer consider the issue, make a "suggestion" or a "recommendation", and then leave it up to the individual sailor as to what he/she decides to do in any particular set of circumstances.

Sailors by their very nature are independant thinkers and resent/resist being TOLD what to do.

I have rescued experienced A-cat sailors who were unexpectedly abandoned by their boats in a smart breeze and big waves: Charlie Johnson said he was "flicked like a bugger off your finger" in a fast pitchpole. Swimming in the middle of Galveston Bay for hours is not my idea of fun- right, Bob?
A-cats probably won't drag the skipper dangerously after crashing if you are tethered, but a capsized A-cat will definitely go away faster than you can swim in wind. They ain't no handles on the top of the sail- Zip- you slide down it- and the cat is gone! I keep my mainsheet wrapped around a hand: cat's lack of weight and momentum is good in this case. Sailing with a buddy to keep your eye on is also a safety item.

How about a retractable type tether that connects to the trap wire. If you get seperated, the trap bungee will snap and allow plenty of room for the sailor to stay clear of the boat until he/she regains composure. (?)

Eric

and.. the weight of a sailor in the water attached to the houndswill force a boat to capsize. No risk of being dragged under if the boat trys to sail away because the hounds are 28 feet in the air.

I was thinking about this just the other day. I want to be able to sail solo or with inexperienced crew, and do it safely.

What's the best way to tether yourself in such a situation? Put a carabiner on the end of the mainsheet and clip it to your harness? I guess a hangmans-noose bungee'd off the trapeze for the crew, right ;-) I'm looking for instructions, because I have no idea how it's generally done, much less, what works.

Dennis

Dennis, 2 thoughts on your post

1. I always attach my bitter ends of my mainsheet and traveler sheet so I can control them both from the wire (and so the main can't run out of the blocks). BUT perhaps a carabineer that simply runs freely through the main/trav attached to my harnes might work.

That being said... I have seen people fall overboard... hold the mainsheet... and as the boat takes off... they are pulled through the water and end up sheeting in the main... increasing the boat speed. I have seen people* dragged at 10knots... only to let go of their boat as it rockets off! -

Conversely after you sheet it in all the way (while being dragged though the water), if you are lucky... your boat can capsize without any weight on it. I am sure this is better that it taking off and hitting something.



2.crew??? Who cares if they fall over? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



*I have done the mainsheet climb back up my boat 2 times.... both times I went for a swim were due to operator error, but it happens.

if you do clip yourself in, use a snap shackle, not a caribiner. You can't undo a biner under load but you can with a snap shackle.

good call ptp for sure snap shackle also note make sure the attachment point is somwhere on your front side above the nipples. you don't want to be dragged backwards. I used to use a heavy duty boggie board leash (forearm attachment). never had to use the boggie leash, but almost killed myself using a surfboard leash (ankle) getting draged backward until finally the boat rounded up. I know common sence.

The main goal to stay with the boat. If you are in the water, let the boat capsize. I think that remaining attached to the trapeze with the return bungee snapped offers safety and connection.

The hard part about this is when you reach that point of no return when you know you are going over. I am used to unhooking myself unconsciously from the trap so that when I do go over I have an exit strategy that doesn't involve going into/through the sail. That is my main issue with trying to tether myself to the boat. I sail in relatively protected waters so I have not really given it a lot of thought before. Robi described a system he uses with a snap shackle I believe which he thinks works pretty well. He shackles himself into the loop of mainsheet/traveler.

I can't go back and change my vote, even though the question has changed.

My answer to the present question, "Do you think that the sailors in a W1k/T500 race should be required to be tethered to the boat" is "no, I don't think that long distance racing contestants be required to do such a thing."

I require myself to tether to the boat when I am sailing distance ocean sailing and I always encourage my crew to do the same.

I've been in some situations where it did matter. If the worst had happened, then you'd all be saying how stupid it was of me to tie myself to the boat. As it is, I saved myself and helped to save my boat from being pounded by waves against big rocks.

It could go either way and that is why a sailor deserves to make his own decision. My experience in the conditions that I have sailed in will show that I should stay tethered. I can't speak for those sailing in different areas where the conditions differ from my local conditions.

I sail alone in the ocean, ... a lot! I wouldn't dare let that boat get away from me. Falling off unexpectedly, is exactly when that can happen. I have had some very close calls that could have ended up with me floating along on my PFD, miles from shore.

You should, at the least, keep a death grip on the main sheet. Insisting on not becoming separated from the boat has saved me from a 5-mile swim in 64ºF water a few times. (see DUMB butt maneuver, the Dragging Under My Boat, Automatic Sheeting System maneuver)

Think through all of the possible scenarios that you can envision, imagine. Find a way to deal with every scenario and be prepared to deal with all of those potential situations. Carry two knives, a VHF radio, a whistle, a mirror, and a flare or two. Don't forget a bottle of water too.

Two knives? Yes, carry one that is easy to get to and consider the fact that it will probably be gone because those easy to get to places are also "easy to get knocked off and go overboard places."

Carry a reliable back-up self rescue knife in a place where the water and wind won't steal it yet, a place where you can absolutely get it when you are all pumped up on fear-hormones.

Being an experienced underwater sportsman can be a good asset to have when it comes to self rescue from an open-water catamaran accident. Go do some body-surfing, scuba diving (NAUI 1972), skin diving, salvage diving, or other underwater sports or work that will train you to find your way out of an underwater tangle.

Being tied up in a surging kelp forest can be a very rewarding experience; particularly if you learn to escape without using a knife. Slow the panic and expedite the recovery! Get away smoothly without drowning.

Being tangled in rope, go for your knife as you find a way to get back to the surface and/or slither out of a tangle.

Yes, I do connect to the boat. You may or may not choose to do so. Think about what happens next and be ready to face the consequences of 'not wearing the tether' and also, those consequences of wearing it.

Don't be caught off-guard; have a survival game plan already in mind.

GARY

above the nipples???? Perhaps a hangman's noose around your neck? Attach to an earing? Through your nose?.... perhaps that part of the responce was intended for a different forum??? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Don't you think that being dragged backwards (from above the nipples) might be even better? I'm thinking that when dragged forward there is an up swell of water created by the body through the water, that wants to charge right up your nose.

Backwards might create a low pressure area where you may have a chance to find some breathable air.

Any way you slice it though, draging in the water is far more dangerous that most people can envision.

I suggest that everyone do the trolling game. Hook up a tow line and take turns hauling one another through the water. The towee can signal the tower with a lifted hand, to stall the boat. The tower can watch the towee and stall when things look dangerous. All of this should be done with a life vest on so that the towee can let go at any time and float while recovering from ingested water.

You'll learn lots!

GARY

No tether.

I'm scared to death of getting left behind by a boat thats on its own (its happened to me before)

Even more scared of being keel hauled by it.

Just this past Tybee, one sailor tried to hang onto a righting line as the boat began to accelerate and the line pulled him underwater and eventually he had to let go. It only takes one gulp of water to drown. No way, no how, am I wearing a tether. I WILL carry a line with me that I can use for various purposes (like throwing over a sideways boat to the crew who might be hanging upside down on some rigging) but I really believe that a tether is more of a liability than not having one.

Alan carried a line bag that he could chuck to Trey in the event he went overboard. Its similar to the things that the kayakers use I think.

A good eye opener for this is to learn to barefoot (waterski with no skis). For those who have never tried it, here's a quick overview. For a deep water start, you hook your toes over the line, lay back in the water and get drug until the boat gets up enough speed for you to sit up, then stand up.

All this sounds good except once you start moving through the water you start getting pushed under. Your immediate reaction is to sit up to try to get air. By sitting up toward the surface, the water flow now forces you under water... very far under water. To get to the surface, you have to do the opposite of what your brain is telling you to do... arch your back as far as you can and that brings you to the top. The toughest part of this whole process is from 5 to about 15/20 mph. At those speeds you have to hold your breath because you don't have a big enough pocket of air above your head to breath. Once you're going faster than that, the water is starting to get firmer, you have a bigger air pocket and you can start to sit up a little.

I don't think too many of our cats when unmanned with a person dragging behind is going to accelerate past 20 mph to enable the tethered skipper to do a deep water barefoot start... or even a$$ skip across the water.

I suspect that being drug behind a ski boat would help a lot of you decide whether or not you really want to be tied to a boat doing 10 or 15 mph. Don't forget to try feet first too, just so you know what it will be like if you're tied on a little lower than your armpits.

This is starting to get wordy but one more thing to try. Remember the part about hooking your toes over the ski rope to get started... when falling off a cat, you won't have the luxury of first hooking your toes, then telling the driver to "hit it". So just for giggles (or gurgles), try starting without your feet over the line, then once you're moving try getting your feet through the water and hooked back on the line so you can arch your back and plane to the top of the water.

Yes, there is a chance that the weight of the tethered skipper will tip the boat over, but I sure wouldn't want to be that person hooked to the boat by a line that I can't let go of.

That said, for you guys on bigger water, I don't know what the right answer is, but for me on my smaller inland lakes... I always have a life vest and at least a wet suit on, I'll drift/swim to one of the heavily populated shores where I can call for help from some vacationers house. I'll worry about getting the pieces of my boat back after I'm on dry ground.

I've spoken to a couple of Worrell/Tybee vet friends and have come up with the same answers from them. No.

I remember flipping once in a storm and looking at the GPS... it said 6 mph... while on our side!!!! If tethered in that situation you'd be drowned.

we made our righting line extra long so you could have a chance to grab on and hang on - but all it does is tow you unrecoverabley.

On my A-cat, I intend to clip the mainsheet to me through a quick release snap shackle. At least with the mainsheet as a tether, it will very likely flip the boat.

We use tethers similar to this, but not as long (about 8ft stretched out) - we'll only clip in if the weather is getting really big and we are a way off shore. They make me feel better - but I see it as a personal choice issue - do you want to drown attached to the boat or die of exposure because you lost contact with the boat and no one could find you? (try spotting someone in the water from the air)

The tethers clip to a spectra line strung across the tramp from the side shroud attachments. This gives us good freedom of movement when tacking or gybing .

What I haven't tried is releasing the tether while being dragged by the boat or hanging with full body weight on the tether. Does anyone have experience with this? Quick release shackles release easily when not loaded - but will they release with 190lbs load?

I've been dragged behind the boat and had to let go or drown. Luckily Jeremy from Surf City Catamarans was right next to me in a safety boat.

Perhaps we need to do some tether release experiments in controlled waters.

Chris.

How about just hanging a foot off the ground with a snap shackle... hold it... be back in a second...

I just put eye splices in some parellel core line for new halyards for my 31 (cheap line, but can't see spending 2$/ft for 80 feet x 3 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) with snap shackles.

Requires a little bit of a tug but it should work. 170lbs standing from the line. If the shackle doesn't release freely under no load (one of mine requires a little more force) then don't use it. If it opens freely then it should work.

Having done the Tybee 500 and quite a few distance races I can say that I would not want to be tethered to the boat from a central point.

However the jury is still out on if I would tether to the mainsheet with a quick release. That doesn't sound like a bad idea.

All I know is when I come off the boat the first thing I want is a breath of air. If I have to hold my breath for 10 seconds that's could be the last 10 seconds that I live. It just takes one errant gulp of water to kill you.

For example try running a mile and then holding your breath for 10 seconds. It's pretty hard. Panic sets in and could kill you.

I've also fallen off my share of boats. Even in distance races I'd rather take my chances swimming to shore or being rescued possibly with my locator beacon.

On big boats I'm all for tethering myself in bad weather. That's to keep me on the boat though. Not for falling off and being drug.

I say leave it up to the sailors. They'll find what works for them and use it.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005

Would it not be possible to rig the tether so it locks the steering over? One way or another the boat won't go that far before stopping.

Cheshirecatman

Tie it off to a tiller arm would be the easiest, but I bet you'd break something pulling it over that hard.

I was thinking tie it off to somewhere on the bow, so the boat will turn up into the wind and stop, or flip, once you hit the water. Of course in a big squall, even if (when) the boat flips, it's going to be going away from you at a pretty good clip, on it's side, but if you could get it to turn bows upwind, that might help slow it down.

I've been watching this thread with interest and have to say I wouldn't ever want to be tied to a cat. It just seems like another line to get wrapped around something (neck, wrist, leg etc) in a pitch and cause some real damage. I have rescued people with their mainsheet wrapped around their body and completely incapacitated (Hobie 16/20 North Americans).

But on the other hand...
At the Tiger Worlds in Santa Barbara, we rescued around 10 crews that were separated from boats over the course of racing. In 25 kts a boat on its side will travel waaaay faster than a person can swim. We would mostly spot the boat over from mid course and then head upwind to scoop the skipper and crew. It's very difficult to see people in the water in those conditions, even though we knew they were not far from our position. Oftentimes, one of the crew would still be with the boat and they would point us in the direction of the man overboard. It was pretty hectic. A teather might have been a good option in this case, but it just seems like a heck of a liability.

I did get several calls from people overboard on the VHF. They would guide me to their position. And pretty much every coast guard and harbor patrol boat has an RDF on board. A VHF in the lifejacket should be mandatory along with a few rocket flairs just in case, but I'm not convinced about the tether yet. Too much stuff to get tangled up in if you need a quick escape.

We're probably going to start doing this in the future - the Team of David Lennard and Mike Krantz used to carry waterproof smoke bombs in their pocket so that if separated, they could light one and the person on the boat could find them easier.

I never have and never will wear a tether when sailing 1-up. I dependent on the death grip on the mainsheet when the comes to that (and have done so in the past). It is also a reflex of mine to start swimming agressively towards the boat as soon as I hit the water.

Once or twice I've been pulled along halveway submerged when hanging on to the mainsheet by a boat that didn't immediately flip when I departed. I'm totally convinced that a skipper will not be able to unhook himself in such a situation when tethered by a carabine or something. With the death grip I can hang on as long as I can and then still let go if I have to.

A side effect of hanging onto the mainsheet is that you automatically pull the mainsheet tight which typically flips the boat after a few seconds if it doesn't flip immediately after I have "stepped off".


I do sail singlehanded quite often and have done so in all conditions, mostly in 12knots and higher as those are typical conditions for us over here. And I have flipped it often enough to know the drill by reflex. Personally, I don't understand when people get seperated from the boat when singlehanding. As a rare occurance maybe but not in the numbers reported in this thread (A-cats / Tiger worlds)

Wouter

I don't hear about it that much either, but as they say it only takes once. A guy spent 2 hours in the water (51 F) a few weeks ago after losing his H16. Sun was going down, harbor patrol found him around 7:30pm in a "severely hypothermic state." That's a bit close for comfort if you ask me. A VHF and flares (at least here in SC) would have greatly increases his chances of survival.

The Tiger worlds in Santa Barbara was pretty extreme sailing to say the least. Ask anyone that was on the water <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
About mid week I was so beat from plucking you guys out of the water that during a wonderful burrito dinner I had to go lay down in the car and fell asleep at 6:30pm. Highly uncharacteristic of me to miss a regatta party. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps you should cut back on the burritos!!!

Didn't even get to enjoy one bite <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

To the post that talked about 'Barefoot' water skiing.

He is referring to a 'deep water, long line start'. you plane pretty quickly, and can ride on your butt, then, feet in and stan up when there's enough speed.

When you do a start while going backwards, you take a deep breath, flip on your front side, feet on the rope, and they hit it. You drag face down, but when you arch your back, you get a small pocket where you can breath a little, until you get your feet in and get up.

I've gone off a boat twice. Neither time did I get separated AFTER a capsize.

The First, sailng with Dean Pakune, in Galveston Bay. The harness hook on my old prindle harhess had opened up enough over the years, and while double trapped, I went off while skippering upwind.

Wouter,
I HAD hold of the mainsheet, and I guarantee your grip is no stronger than mine. When I hit the water I basicallty stopped, the boat keept going, flying a hull, but now only Dean was trapped, looking back with a shocked look on his face. He leaned back as I held on for a split second, which even sheeted it in further, and it ripped out of my hand, (deathgrip). It slowly capsized, and I swam back to it, it was not nuclear conditions.

The second, I was crewing in the 2007 Great Tx 300. It was fairly nuclear at the time, kite up going about 17-20. I went to trap out, and although I thought I was hooked in, even gave it a tug, I went in the water and quickly away from the boat doing nearly 20. Luckily, Corey drove down, got the kite down, and turned back towards me. He was several hundred meters off and I had to swim to the area where he was going while pinching it up slow.

If I would have been tethered then, I probably could have 'barefooted ;-), while Corey drove.


The times I've done GT300, although they require a 'tether' to be onboard, I don't remember using it.

As has been said, by Chris and others, unclipping a 'quick' release under a big load, would prove to be nearly impossible.

So, if it is impossible to hold onto the main while being towed what would it be like if you had been tied on and the boat was still as insistent at dragging you through the water? Might there be occasions when this might drown you? Could you even be trapped under the boat under water by the tether?
A tether is one more bit of cord I won't be introducing as I have my life vest on at all times and a VHF and whistle in my smock when sailing distance. Hell, the tether getting caught might be the very reason you flip in the first place.

Over here is carrying a whisle and a flare are compulsory and fellow club members do remind everybody to carry them when they don't.

Also the GPS cell phone has as good as completely replaced the VHF transmitter. Many carry these on their lifevest as well. Is there a reason why this is not the case in SC ?

Wouter

I was talking about singlehanding the boat. When you step of them and hold onto the mainsheet the boat will typically flip somewhere over the next 10 seconds. If you have a crew still hanging on the trap after you dropped off then yes I can see the boat just powering along. But in that case the crew is still on the boat to retrieve you. And if he can't because the conditions are too harsh then the crew was out in conditions above their skill level.

Still having said all this, I have done the "hold on to the sheet" in many situations and conditions and it worked for me. And I have been dragged along too. Of course I have typically sailed lightweight boats where the position of the crew weight is pretty much what keeps the pointy side up. Things can be different for "inherently stable" I-20's or whatever. I have also gone of without the sheet in my hand however, when the crew was trimming the boat but I've never got seperated fully from the craft. In my case my 90 kg body frame stepping off pretty much garantees the F16 going over, even with my 65 kg crew on the trap line. In those cases I have swam to the overturning boat like a madman and have always reached it in time. This as reflection of that other point in my posting; swimming like hell on your heels when ever you hit the water.

Personally I see your experience as another indication of why not to be thethered to the boat and why it is so important to have a skilled and experienced crew on races like the Tybee 500.

Fair winds,

Wouter

Some observations and thoughts...

Awhile ago I had started a thread on this topic because of some events I had experienced. I came away with the feeling that being tethered for one of those incidents might have led to injury.

I went off the back of our N-20 while driving downwind in the Annapolis-Oxford race. Alec was trapped and locked in with the chicken lines. Winds were around 20 and we were honkin'. Wave just popped me up and over the back I went. I had a grip on the mainsheet and held on for split second before that was ripped from my hand. Alec had issues getting back on the boat due to it starting to turn (throws your balance off). The boat ended up turning downwind, depowered, and with Alec still on the trap it capsized to windward. In the small amount of time it took for the capsize to happen a decent distance had been put between me and the boat. Once Alec had it together and started to right it, it was making pretty good time on its side. There was no way I could possibly swim to catch it.

I started to consider the idea of clipping in to the mainsheet hearing people mention the "it will sheet the boat and cause it to capsize" - but when you're going full tilt downwind the sheet and traveler are in anyway. And it then occured to me that if there is slack in the tether when you go over you could get hurt when the slack goes away and the force of a 400lb boat going 20 is transmitted to your body.

That having been said, the idea of being separated from the boat didn't sit too well either.

The other case was when a crew trap broke going upwind in biggish conditions. I'm not sure what would have happened if he was tethered, but the boat wasn't going as fast and I had control of the helm. As it was I was able to circle back and get him, but that also pointed out that safely getting to a COB in rough conditions can also be dangerous. Even parked the boat moved a speed that made it difficult to swim to, and getting close enough can set you up to hit the person in the water.

An additional one I know of is an A-Cat sailor that got separated from his boat during a regatta, the committee didn't know it, and he ended up swimming a decent distance to shore.

So, on the tethering side there are three cases:
1) Somebody falls off the boat upwind
2) Somebody falls off the boat downwind
3) Boat capsizes

You could probably add two additional factors - whether it is the crew or skipper that falls off.

I think on the whole, tethered or not, the likelyhood for a good outcome it increased if it is the crew that falls off, especially upwind, and that the danger of injury is much less.

I think the speed and power of the spin boats makes it potentially dangerous to be tethered if you fall overboard downwind. With somebody at the helm the danger is reduced. If the helm falls off, risk is higher.

In the case of capsizing, the normal slowish over she goes type being tethered would not be as much a safety issue and could keep you safe by not allowing separation. I think the regatta rules consider this case in specifying the length. The violent no warning capsize/pitchpole is a different story - by the time you come to your senses you might be in trouble. But with a longish tether you still may be better off with it. But I'm also not certain that with newer designs that happens as often, so there's a question as to whether that case happens enough to negate benefits in other cases.

I have started to think about using a short tether for helming downwind in the rough. Using the big boat idea of tethering to stay on the boat. You won't get dragged, but you better have conditioned thought to pop the thing off in a capsize. Again, this would only be used for the helm, and I have yet to actually try it (I'm not %100 percent convinced).

Once somebody is separated there are two things to consider:
1) Can you act quickly enough to stop the separation from increasing.
2) If you can't accomplish #1 can you safely stay in contact with the COB.
3) Can you safely retrieve the COB.

#2 speaks to people carrying radios, GPS, and signal kits (whistles, small flares, etc.) on their person.

We've started to carry COB throw bags for these cases. It may be possible after a capsize for a crew still with the boat to throw a line to the separated sailor. It can also be used for retrieval in that once the boat is righted the singlehanded sailor only needs to get close enough to throw the bag/line. It would seem that two would be preferrable, one stored under the tramp for a capsize, the other on top for a COB, but two may be a little overkill (certainly adds weight).

So, in the end as for the original question, should they be required? I don't know. It would be nice for a system to evolve that answers the concerns and optimizes benefits while mitigating the risks. Then having that required would be ok. Other than that it should be something recommended, and the sailors should think through the scenarios and plan for how to deal with each. The boats have changed, and the best answer may be several answers - one for each situation (upwind, downwind, skipper, crew, etc.).

Note that all of this is geared towards races where you need to fend for yourself. In a bouys race with a crash boat you can rely on for help, don't take the risk a tether may invoke. If you're on your own balance the risk of being separated with the risk of the tether.

LOL... thats one heck of a dissertation (1017 words)...

I was going to ask, are you a lawyer but i read your profile.... Lawyer, Spacecraft Service... what’s the difference? (kiddin)

I was going to hijack this thread and ask what kind of flares everyone carries, but i will start a new.

Just a follow-up as I had a chance to experiment this weekend; I missed my trap and went off the boat in double-trap conditions Saturday. I dropped the stick grabbing for the handle, but retained the mainsheet. I had a very good view of my crew trapping hard to keep the boat up as I dragged along behind. The boat heeled up pretty high and then started to round up - the crew did a great job of coming off the trap just as the boat flattened out. As we decelerated, I was able to reel myself to the rudder just as we passed head-to-weather in a pretty clean roll tack. I sent the crew to the new high side of the boat to keep it flat while I used the rudder as a foothold and popped back onto the boat. I moved up the tramp, collected the stick, sheeted in and we were off again while the crew gathered the mainsheet and traveller tail that was still off the low side.

I was off the boat about 5-6 seconds, I would guess - certainly less than 10. I was able to see what was happening very clearly and was prepared to release the mainsheet if it seemed I needed to. Still being in contact with the boat allowed me to feel how it was reacting as well, and the slowing as it rounded up was obvious. Roger Jenkins did an outstanding job as crew and we had a fair dash of luck, but I think that hanging on the the boat saved the flip and clearly kept us in the race. As we got resettled, I was laughing pretty hard. I said I hoped someone had seen it - Roger said he hoped nobody had. I think I'll add a clip to my harness to run the mainsheet through and try it out.

All that said, I think a rule requiring a tether is inadvisable.

John, do you remember what Chris Sawyer's hand looked like after his trap hoop broke on the leg to Tybee in the '02 Worrell?

Yep - I also remember he ignored advice about multiple wraps around his hand. When he was ready to let go, he couldn't. Lesson learned. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

well, he disregarded the #1 rule... have solid trap loops!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (I HATE those plastic things)

What I was getting at was had he not had it wrapped there was NO way he would have been able to hang on. Even with all the wraps, he couldn't hang on and mangled his hand. They were clocking 25 +/- mph when he hit the water. Unless he was tethered in a very secure way he was going to get seperated. Now, think a/b being tethered in that situation... 25 and acting like a drogue... no fun. air=good <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From Scuttlebut and Sailing Anarchy

An experienced sailor was ejected in a round up and managed to survive in open ocean following resuce by another race boat.

Here is a statement on tether's

From Roger Marshall:
Interesting read on the Santa Barbara race overboard scenario. The ladies were very fortunate. Readers might want to be aware of some research I did a couple of years ago for my book Rough Weather Seamanship. We towed a swimmer on a lifejacket harness at various speeds and found that at speeds over 4 knots the swimmer can barely keep his/her head above water. At six to eight knots the bow wave created by the person came over his head and he had great difficulty breathing (we stopped the test at this point!). At this same speed the drag of a person in foul weather gear is so high that two crew could not drag that person up to the boat and out of the water. When a boat is sailing at twelve to sixteen knots, it will be almost impossible to get a person back aboard. This leads to two conclusions, first, use lifejackets without a harnesses for high speed sailing or end jacklines far enough forward that, should a person go overboard, they can still hold onto the rail. If they end up a full tether length behind the boat, they may be drowned before the boat can be stopped.

This scenario does not sound logical. If there are crew members still on the boat, they would not be trying to retrieve a dragging man with the boat still going at speed. Wouldn't they immediately stop the boat?

The main danger would be if you are the ONLY person on the boat and you fall overboard and are being dragged and have no way of stopping the boat.

I do like the idea of having the tether anchored far enough forward so that if you fall off, you are still alongside the boat and can maybe hold onto a footstrap or push over the tiller to round the boat up or make it capsize or whatever, in order to stop it.

Hi Mary

I think the worry is that in a monohull you have all this sail up and you can't stop the boat or drop sail quickly enough. In the story, the boat was knocked down and stayed down... but she was still trucking...all be it on it's side. The remaining crew could not recover their second crew member and stop the boat at the same time.

My point was to put some numbers to idea that you could be tethered to a cat at speed.

On big monohulls, you are on a pretty short tether, that is running on a jackline fore and aft, so you can't really fall very far -- just be hanging off the side of the boat.
Doesn't really relate to small boats.

That's why I liked the idea of, on small boats and cats, having the tether fastened forward so you can't end up dragging behind the boat.

And I don't agree that you can't get any sailboat, monohull or multihull, to round up and stop really fast, no matter what sails you have up.

When I learnt to white water raft they taught us that when you get hold of a rescue line, roll on your back so that you paravane up not down. When I was getting pulled out after grabbing hold of the rescue line from the bank, the last words I heard were on your f?@#$^& back gurgle, when I came back up after rolling on my back, they were still swearing I nearly pulled them all in with the water pressure on my front but they were able to retrieve me on my back.

Geometry problem:
Figure out a way to have a long enough tether to be able to trap with your foot on the rudder while keeping it short enough to stay along side the boat if you "fall" off.

- Don't think it's possible.

Shafer did it on the Tommy Bahama boat by having the tether free to move on a guide that ran from the front beam to the aft, and from port to starboard as I recall. The tether, which attached to the trapeze harness only had to be long enough to stand. From the water, the stern of the boat was still in arm's reach.

Hello all,
If anyone know the whereabouts of Dean Pakune, please let me know! NO, he's not missing, I'd just like to talk to him again, I haven't been able to reach him for at least 20 yrs.
Last I talked to him, he was on the West coast of FL somewhere's, working for Sears I believe.

Anyone know Dean?

I see a chicken line, like what Shafer had (and we use), and a tether as different things. The prusik knot on a leader strung between beams works well to prevent waves from knocking you off the boat while on the wire...but we don't stay hooked into that when sitting on the deck or tacking/gybing. I try to configure mine with a quick release so you can get out of them in most situations. It's use is a little different than what monohullers commonly think of as a "tether" but perhaps if the OAs see them as a similar item we might find some common ground.

That post was from 2008 , skippy.

Holy thread resurrection. And here I thought Williams came out of retirement to discuss Bert's tether requirement. ~sigh~

~6 years later and no-one has developed anything new.......

I'll take your ~sigh~ and raise it to a *sad*

FWIW - Jake and all, that is not my tether requirement. That is an item we added during our formation of the GYA/US Sailing MHC Safety Recommendations, which have been a work in progress, primarily with Chuck Hawley and Randy Smyth. Jonathan Farrar encouraged the use of synthetic trapeze wires because some classes were still requiring stainless in their Class Rules for the Tybee, and stainless can not be cut with a personal knife.
We fine tuned the recommendations under Mr. Hawley's guidance.

Safety harness and tether with quick release device at user’s end, for each crewmember. (5.02.1)
If I could add attachments, I would send you Chuck's compilation. If someone would be kind enough to send me the trick for attachments via PM, then I could share the document.

This does not require constant use, but does support the ability to tether when in doubt.

This recommendation is a feature, modifiable by the owner, and the ultimate tethering system is still being developed. As boats have become faster, the design has required refining from the old Forespar straps and heavy buckles/clips we used on displacement boats.

I see no reason that a properly rigged "chicken" line could not serve the purpose. We have used those in the past, and many catamaran sailors still use them.

Just sayin' again: it is not Bert's ruling.

Respectfully,
Bert Rice

I 'resurected it', 'cause I goggled Dean, and it brought me back here.

So, Anyone know of Dean Pakune, last living in FL? Was in Galveston?

Just got the July/AUG 2104 issue of CatSailor and read all the inputs on tethering. It seems that no one is fully happy with any of the proposed or previously tried jackline and tether methods.

If we look to kitesurfing we might find a couple of good devices. This sport was known for how dangerous it could be until they figured out the combination of automatic depower and a tether that is easily released under load if all hell breaks loose.
1) They don't have an ability to cleat in so power is automatically reduced by ~90% anytime you let go of the control bar. Unlike a mainsheet the control bar force required to hold a kite at maximum power is only about 10-15 pounds of pull. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY7lsKTTiE0#t=260 for an example of letting go to reduce power momentarily.
2) If you need to force a stall of the kite (100% depower) you use the quick release #1 which stalls the kite sending it to the water lying on its back. At this point you are still tethered to the kite. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY7lsKTTiE0#t=36
3) If all hell breaks loose and you need to cut the kite away, all you need to do is push away on the bypass release on your safety leash (tether). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY7lsKTTiE0#t=189

Note: Both safety releases disconnect with only about a 5 lb force when under a 200+ pound load.

Plus there is a retractable leash (like a dog's leash) that is built for salt water. This is used by some to tether their kiteboard to the rider when riding in open water. See: http://www.oceanustech.com/theeel.htm

Note: I am not endorsing either product or brand for beachcats. The videos are just representative examples to give ideas.

Brilliant design. I can see this being used to help with some of the beachcat tethering issues. Will it easily release with a 1000+ lbs. load?

My hesitation with the tether is not in a situation when I need to depower - it's a situation where it's already too late and I've capsized and the boat is going turtle. There are already a lot of lines that you can get tangled to and I would rather not have another one intentionally connected to me.

I suspect a tethered person would be injured by a 1000 pound load. Regardless, the kite safety leash release force is based on unequal length lever arms so if you lengthen the longer arm you could probably maintain the 5 pound release force.

Since a few years, starting after sailing in a very severe winter, I use a tether to my cat.

Its a standard leashline from a kite (a long handle pass shockcord version). I have connected it with a noose to my sternbar (which could also be a tight line between the two hulls). The trick is that the noose can shift along this bar, because it is hold in the middle by a shockcord which runs from hull to hull.

So, when I fall overboard there is enough free space between me and the cat. Also when I capsize, I will not be hung up over the hullside because it will all stretch out far enough.

When I sail hanging out, the leash goes over the tiller under my steering arm to a ring just beyond my trapeze-hook. Its not in the way at all.

If necessary, I can detach myself from the the tether with the quick-release from the leashline. Which is also proven technique.








On the last photo you also see two lines hanging over the side the hull. They are also safety lines.
One is fixed nonstrectch and is to be used as a grabbing line when falling overboard. And the other black/yellow one is connected to a shockcord (which runs via the frontbeam to the other side). So this thick line I can stretch out and use for stepping up when I want to go back on board after a capsize.

The only problem with all these measures is the mindsetting behind it. I now use my tether all the times, even if it is not strictly necessary. I simply feel insecure without it!