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U.S. A-Class Association speaks out

Posted By: ejpoulsen

U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/21/08 05:36 AM

Bravo to the USACA for being organized and getting their opinions to US Sailing President and Board. Bob Hodges, et al did a very nice job articulating the multihull point of view.

See http://www.usaca.info/
Posted By: Jake

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/21/08 11:46 AM

I had my head in the sand (literally) last week when all this went down - how DID the US vote last week when things didn't go through?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/21/08 12:05 PM

For obvious reasons I think they decided to keep votes secret this time.
On a more positive note, the dutch F18 class has been invited to hold their Nationals at the Olympic Classes event which is I guess is great for recognition of multihull sailing.
Website (not yet updated): http://www.opendutchsailing.org/
Posted By: Stewart

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/21/08 03:33 PM

correct me if I am wrong... Didn't Holland vote to scrap the Tornado? If so why are the F18s sailing in an event that makes the Dutch NA look good?
The obvious reasons is to protect their collecting arses..

The only way we will get through to ISAF is to ban any ISAF involvement in any cat class till the results are transparent. Then ban the NAs that voted against the cats.. Banning the ISAF should make them wake up..
Posted By: Acat230

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 02:59 PM

The letter that is posted on the USACA website was drafted by me and reviewed in detail with Pease Glaser. Pease has a lot of experience with the US Sailing and ISAF organizations having been directly involved with many committees.

I sent the letter to Jim Capron and every member of the US Sailing board of directors. I did not receive a single response to the letter, not even a response acknowledging receipt of the letter.

As most of you know, the ISAF committee at the Qingdao meeting voted to not re-affirm the November selection of classes. This lead to a vote to decide whether to reconsider the actual slate of events. The vote (done in secret) required 26 votes in favor to re-start the event selection process again. 21 votes were received in favor so the November selection stands and multihulls are out of 2012 Olympics for now.

I spoke with Pease last week about the vote and the lack of response from US Sailing (we are fairly sure that the US delegates at the Qingdao meeting voted against any reconsideration of the events selection). Pease is typically a very CAN DO and optimistic person and this was one of the few times where she has responded to me that she is not sure what else we can do (at least through normal "diplomatic" channels).

I mentioned to her that at this point, perhaps the best thing we can all do as individuals is for each of us to send a letter or e-mail to the membership office of US Sailing and take the position that we will no longer support them with our membership dues as they no longer serve our interests nor do they take us serious as a legitimate community. Pease did not disagree with me.

I believe I will make my own stand. It's up to everyone else to decide how they should act.

Bob Hodges
USACA
A-Class USA 230
Corsair Sprint 750 9
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 04:12 PM

I agree with you Bob, but i am not and never have been a member. I would be happy to write to them stating i was considering a membership but will not at this time due to that lack of multi-hull representation ... if i knew who to send an email to.
Posted By: Acat230

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 04:27 PM

Sent to Amy Larkin at US SAILING (amylarkin@ussailing.org)



Dear Amy,



As president of the United States A-Class Catamaran Association (USACA), I am writing to let you know that I am making a choice this year to not support US Sailing by non-payment of my membership dues. I have been active in sailboat racing for over 30 years racing such one design classes as Finns, Lasers, Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, various sailboards, and for the last 16 years multihulls that have included the Prindle 19, Tornado, A-Class catamaran, and a Corsair Sprint 750 trimaran. Since the early-1980’s, I have been fairly consistent paying my annual US Sailing membership dues. There are two specific reasons why I choose for now to not support US Sailing:



The unanimous vote of US sailing delegates at the November ISAF meeting to eliminate the multihull event from the 2012 Olympic Games despite a position previously stated by the organization to support such an event and contrary to the specific recommendations of the ISAF events committee that included a multihull event(s).
The total lack of response from Mr. Jim Capron and the entire US Sailing board of directors to a letter written on April 21, 2008 by me on behalf of the USACA (see www.usaca.info) to ask the organization to reconsider its position on this issue going into the ISAF mid-year meeting in Qingdao. To our knowledge, US Sailing was not among the ISAF member national authorities that requested re-affirmation of the November selection of events and at this time we believe that US Sailing delegates did not support any consideration of a change in events.


US Sailing (by its actions) continues to send a message that it does not consider the multihull community in this country or the world to be a legitimate branch of the sport. Until I see change in the organization that leads me to believe otherwise, I will continue to boycott the organization with non-payment of membership dues. Further action I will take will be to send this letter to the membership of the USACA and other multihull organizations.



Sincerely Yours,



Bob Hodges
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 04:34 PM

To
Bob Hodges, (A Class) Bob Merrick (Hobie Classes) Jack Young (Nacra Classes)(Shark, Isotope F16, F18 commodores)

US Sailing will mandate that all skippers be members of US Sailing.... no more regatta surcharge that stays with the YC.

Will your Yacht Club honor that US Sailing demand and deny your sailors entry in your NA championship regattas.

(My clubs have their head in the sand and are hoping this does not actually happen).

The power that US Sailing has is to sanction a YC for not following the rules and disallow a competitors participation in national and international events.
Do you think this is a realistic threat?

(IMO, I don't think they could enforce this penalty but they could make a few high profile examples out of some sailors.)

The multihull council has the backing of the $$$ for the Alter Cup championship... Do we want to leave that $$$ on the table if most of us walk away from US Sailing and build an independent organization.

Do the class leadership have the energy to build a US Multihull organization and what would be it's goals? Do we need a multihull organization?

Assuming the 2012 Olympics are toast...
What could US Sailing do for us multihull sailors to earn our support back?

(IMO, I would insist that US Sailing pay for coaches and their expenses for a series of mulithull clinics throughout the country for junior sailors 21 and under for the 8 years that it will take to rejoin the 3 ring circus.)

Mark
Posted By: Jake

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 05:10 PM

Why is this so difficult?
Posted By: Keith

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 05:18 PM

on the sailing anarchy front page is an article under the heading of "Post of the Week" which details Capron pushing his case for mandatory membership with CBYRA. Very interesting read. For the multi community on the Bay this may put us in an interesting quandary - do we potentially give up the starts we've worked hard to get to make our point with US Sailing? Assuming CBYRA ultimately supports USS...
Posted By: John Williams

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 05:39 PM

Here's a letter from my old fleet on the same subject.

I cannot remember a time when only a handful of people were the focus of such discontent.

Attached File
146322-GYALETTERTOUSSA.pdf  (119 downloads)
Posted By: Jake

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 05:50 PM

I actually made this for a work situation yesterday...but it seems to apply just as well here.

[Linked Image]

Attached picture 146323-lOGIC.jpg
Posted By: Acat230

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 06:02 PM

Quote
Why is this so difficult?


Jake,

This is a decision I make on my own in an effort to change what I and others percieve as a chronic lack of respect for the multihull community at the highest levels within US Sailing. I made a very focused effort to contact and engage US Sailing regarding this issue on behalf of the class I represent. US Ssiling's president and its board of directors have chosen not to acknowledge or respond.

Therefore, I see no other way to get their attention than to deny them the use of my membership dues. I believe the USACA will handle a mandatory US Sailing membership requirement for racing in its own way if and when that becomes an issue.

I would appreciate no preaching to me about how I am potentially hurting the Alter Cup or the Junior Multihull Championship. An economic boycott is typically quite effective when change is required and IMO a major change of attitude is long overdue at US Sailing.

In fact, I believe it would send an incredibly strong message to US Sailing if both the 2009 Alter Cup and the 2009 Junior Multihull Sailing Championship were boycotted by the US multihull community.

Bob Hodges
Posted By: Jake

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 06:48 PM

Quote
Quote
Why is this so difficult?


Jake,

This is a decision I make on my own in an effort to change what I and others percieve as a chronic lack of respect for the multihull community at the highest levels within US Sailing. I made a very focused effort to contact and engage US Sailing regarding this issue on behalf of the class I represent. US Ssiling's president and its board of directors have chosen not to acknowledge or respond.

Therefore, I see no other way to get their attention than to deny them the use of my membership dues. I believe the USACA will handle a mandatory US Sailing membership requirement for racing in its own way if and when that becomes an issue.

I would appreciate no preaching to me about how I am potentially hurting the Alter Cup or the Junior Multihull Championship. An economic boycott is typically quite effective when change is required and IMO a major change of attitude is long overdue at US Sailing.

In fact, I believe it would send an incredibly strong message to US Sailing if both the 2009 Alter Cup and the 2009 Junior Multihull Sailing Championship were boycotted by the US multihull community.

Bob Hodges


Bob,

I'm sorry - I see that my short reply was easily misinterpreted. That was directed at US Sailing as to why something so simple and so clear is so impossibly difficult (multihulls in the olympics - mandatory membership that affects local organizations). Bob, I have the greatest respect for you and everything you do for multihull sailing and meant you absolutely no disrespect. Though I will continue my US Sailing membership because I believe in the championship that I work for, I do not find any fault in your position.
Posted By: Acat230

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 08:52 PM

Quote


Bob,

I'm sorry - I see that my short reply was easily misinterpreted. That was directed at US Sailing as to why something so simple and so clear is so impossibly difficult (multihulls in the olympics - mandatory membership that affects local organizations). Bob, I have the greatest respect for you and everything you do for multihull sailing and meant you absolutely no disrespect. Though I will continue my US Sailing membership because I believe in the championship that I work for, I do not find any fault in your position.


No worries and I don't do near as much as you and John W do for the multihull community. It has just reached a point where if I ask myself if I am going to pay US Ssiling dues that I cannot justify giving them any more money based on their actions. I know it was pretty radical to suggest the multihull community boycott the Alter Cup and the Junior Champs but wouldn't that get their attention!
Posted By: Will_R

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 10:05 PM

I feel like Bob does in this case. Given their blatent disregard, how else are we supposed to feel? I know a couple of upper level cat sailors (besides Bob) that have made their opinions known to USS.

I worry that we will loose some premier events (alter cup etc) but if that's the only thing we really get event wise, there is not much more to loose. (no offense Jake/JW)

As Kris Kristofferson once said, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose"

Maybe this is just a little freedom.....
Posted By: fin.

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/23/08 11:38 PM

Kris Kristofferson.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/24/08 12:02 AM

Quote
Kris Kristofferson.


damn! I feel like a dolt.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/24/08 01:41 AM

Bob,
I would suggest rather than individuals sending off a letter.. Classes vote for a resolution that in effect gives a "vote of no confidence" in US sailing's ability to provide leadership, handle, promote or market catamaran sailing in USA and or dependencies.

Understanding that it will need to be a vote taken according to your constitutions.

This can then be forwarded to ISAF directly with a "CC" to US sailing asking for ISAF intervention and seeking an alternative to US sailing in USA. I would not send directly to US sailing, and there may be merit in only sending to ISAF and letting them contact US sailing..
Secondarily to this is "national" Cat classes could also send voted no confidence motions. These could also be sent to ISAF asking for leadership in setting up an alternative avenue for saling in USA.

This strategy coming from all "International" Cat classes with arms in USA may be noticed more. If nothing is received from ISAF itself then "upping the ante", one can proceed by the "International" classes for a direct no confidence motion against ISAF itself.

Stewart
Posted By: Luiz

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/25/08 03:26 AM

Quote
Bob,

This can then be forwarded to ISAF directly with a "CC" to US sailing asking for ISAF intervention...



Case 1: Yacht Club Argentino, which was ISAF MNA at the time (as US Sailing is ISAF MNA for the US), had a fight over the MNA status with the Argentinean Sailing Federation, which is the official branch of the country's Olympic Committee. Both asked for ISAF intervention, etc. ISAF never took party or intervened, just regretted the situation. Things were settled after years (decades?) of political fights, without any action from ISAF.

Case 2: same thing in Paraguay, no action from ISAF, took about three years to settle.

Conclusion: it would be a surprise if ISAF intervenes or takes any action in connection to a country's internal affair.

Still, the suggested actions would help in proportion to the publicity obtained, so it would be more useful to communicate the "votes of no confidence" with copy to the press.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 03:33 PM

Unlike the Gulf Yachting Associatinon. My RSA, CBYRA will go along with US Sailing. See below

Quote
Mark, thank you for forwarding the Multihull position letter. CBYRA met with Jim Capron at our last meeting on May 20th. We invited him to explain US Sailings position and for us to share our concerns with respect to the effect on CBYRA. I felt our meeting was productive.



After Jim left, the Board reviewed the meeting and decided the following:

1. There is little doubt that US Sailing will adopt the mandatory membership requirement for individuals who are in charge of or will take the helm of a boat entered in an event governed by the RRS.

2. There will be certain exception to this requirement as yet undefined. It is safe to assume most weekend events will not be exempt.

3. The make-up of YRA’s and Class affiliations are different, so adding language to the purposed prescription to benefit all (for instance one price covers class, YRA & US Sailing) is problematic.

4. CBYRA has the same problems with respect to declining membership and increased costs to provide member expected services.

5. CBYRA duplicates many overhead costs with US Sailing such as collecting dues that should be able to be shared to reduce costs.

6. Both CBYRA and US Sailing need to do a better job of advertising what we do. If people understood everything we do, this issue would probably be mute.



As a result of the meeting, CBYRA has set up a committee to explore the possibilities of reduced cost joint CBYRA/ US Sailing membership that would benefit all parties involved. Again, we believe this prescription will pass and the most productive thing we can do for our members is to work with US Sailing to mitigate costs and maximize benefits.



With respect to the Multihull position on Rule 75, I personally think there reasoning is flawed. However that is what we have Judges for, and that will make for some interesting reading in the future.



Thank you again for your comments and keeping us informed.



Bobby Frey

President

CBYRA

Posted By: Mary

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 03:56 PM

Quote
1. There is little doubt that US Sailing will adopt the mandatory membership requirement for individuals who are in charge of or will take the helm of a boat entered in an event governed by the RRS.

So what is the alternative? Is somebody going to come up with a different set of racing rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 04:29 PM

Mary,

This is a lose lose situation for th Chesapeake Bay Sailors.

Another rule set won't solve the problem.... All of the organizing authorities that put on our events would have to drop out of US Sailing and join the new... something else.

We only have two organizations that could raise their middle finger leaving us with one weekend event next year.... The alternative is to pay the man and fold.

Mark
Posted By: Will_R

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 04:38 PM

In summary.

- USS will NOT support a multihull event at the Olympics and has essentially given us the "finger"
- USS is going to require us to pay them eventhough they don't support us... Hmmmmm....

This is F'd up.
Posted By: Jake

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 04:43 PM

Quote
Quote
1. There is little doubt that US Sailing will adopt the mandatory membership requirement for individuals who are in charge of or will take the helm of a boat entered in an event governed by the RRS.

So what is the alternative? Is somebody going to come up with a different set of racing rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Are they copyrighted and/or proprietary? Couldn't we just take the ISAF rules (basically the RRS but without the US prescriptions) and use them with our own prescriptions? Are you not allowed to use the rules if you aren't a member? Since when is a set of rules proprietary? Can you name another sport that would attempt to protect it's set of rules from being used elsewhere? This is silly.

I think there is a real flaw in the thinking that the deciding factor for membership is for events that are using the RRS. I believe this is the only play they have for requiring membership and even this has some legality issues. They can't dictate how the clubs operate since they don't own any part of the club so they've chosen to mandate membership through the RRS? The leverage they can apply is real enough though.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 04:47 PM

I would guess that most regatta's use USS insurance for regattas and that is how they will get you in the long run. "Fine, don't want to follow our rules, don't use our cheaper insurance"

I kept USS membership prior to moving to UT and was going to renew until all of the Olympic BS happened.
Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 05:11 PM

Quote
I would guess that most regatta's use USS insurance for regattas and that is how they will get you in the long run. "Fine, don't want to follow our rules, don't use our cheaper insurance"

I kept USS membership prior to moving to UT and was going to renew until all of the Olympic BS happened.


I would hope folks would check to see if US Sailing insurance really is cheaper. Last time our club checked it wasn't.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 05:51 PM

True

The US Sailing package was more comprehensive and you paid a bit more for it (Gowrie Barden Brett) Plus your club must be a member of US Sailing (100 bucks). The former US Sailing partner Meyer's Briggs upgrade their product,and did not have some features of US Sailing and was cheaper. No US Sailing membership required. Coverage for the beach activities and property ... eg Liguor Liability was extra for both.

If you run your own regattas, I think you can safely ignore US Sailing and change the new rule... (much like we modify the penalty turns required).. Others say you can't change a racing rule.
Posted By: Jake

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 06:08 PM

Quote
True

The US Sailing package was more comprehensive and you paid a bit more for it (Gowrie Barden Brett) Plus your club must be a member of US Sailing (100 bucks). The former US Sailing partner Meyer's Briggs upgrade their product,and did not have some features of US Sailing and was cheaper. No US Sailing membership required. Coverage for the beach activities and property ... eg Liguor Liability was extra for both.

If you run your own regattas, I think you can safely ignore US Sailing and change the new rule... (much like we modify the penalty turns required).. Others say you can't change a racing rule.


This rule will be in the prescriptions that are not modifiable by SI's - some you can, some you can't modify...this one will not be modify-able. That question was raised by one of the west coast clubs and addressed by Capron.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 06:30 PM

At this point, I am truly uncertain what to do. I am as discouraged as I have ever been in my adult life. If there is interest, I'll put together an agenda to host a conference call and we can hash out a plan. So far, nothing we've tried has yeilded much in the way of tangible results, even though there has been progress and I think there are some good signs both here in the US and internationally for multihull sailing in the future. Little of that has to do with US SAILING however. As it stands, the best we can hope for is a status-quo of our adult ladder and our two championships, which are both pretty healthy. It is possible that the US will no longer support a youth multihull team for the ISAF Worlds since it is not an Olympic path... not really sure, yet.

There was a time that the Hobie Class maintained a seperate set of rules. Going back to that sort of arrangement is possible, but will not work in all areas of the US. Some folks rely on YCs to run events, some on dealers, some on the Hobie Class, and some on their paper fleet. Any sort of proposed break-away plan would need to be a workable solution for everyone or we risk seeing inconsistent regional solutions developed by the movers and shakers at the local level. The biggest detractor would be that our larger events might be run under a different set of rules than your home fleet uses.

The other elephant in the room is that a break-away would require some people. The MHC has been limping along for a while, but the core group is getting thin. One of our foundational presences has been Darline Hobock - if you have not heard, she has experienced a setback in her health this weekend. We should expect that a day will come when people like Darline, Gordon Isco, Dave Shaffer and Deb Schaefer all find other things to occupy their time or that require their attention. Individual classes also appear to me to be struggling a little to fill volunteer positions. NAMSA has been in place for years and has been pulling off a great annual event in Tradewinds, but not much has happened since Rick's call to arms some four years ago. My point is that there does not seem to be the critical mass needed to bring a replacement organization into being or revamp an existing organization.

I've shown poor leadership of the MHC over the last two weeks because I've had a very hard time getting motivated in the face of what seems to be an epic level of disatisfaction with an organization to which I have devoted an absurd amout of time and money. I'm questioning the need for continued involvement when everything we try seems to have no effect on decisions made at the Board level which engender deeper and deeper resentment.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 06:54 PM

John, well said.

I can see how disheartening it could be to put the time/energy in that you and others have to improve the state of cat sailing in the US only to be walked all over by the upper levels of the governing body. To do the work, to want to better the sport... only to end in a worse position than before by no fault of your own. I'm sure you're at that point, "why? f it!"

This is another David/Goliath sort of fight. Sadly we may just have to take our toys and go play in another sand box.
Posted By: GISCO

Re: Seperate Organization - 05/27/08 06:55 PM

Many moons ago when I was the MHC chairman I proposed reorganizing as a seperate but affiliated group ala the windsurfers.Due to a lack of enough volunteers to carry it through it naver came to fruition. John, if you dig through that pile of stuff I sent, there should be a folder labeled multihull council reorganization and you can see what the plan was. Maybe everything old is new again.

Gordon
Posted By: Wouter

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 07:54 PM

John,

This may not mean much to you but I will write it down anyway.

I strongly admire your dedication to the cause when using the "internal path" as presented by the MHC. We have been in strong disagreement in the past whether this was the best path to take, but that is totally irrelevant with regard to appreciating and admiring your total commitment in this way. In fact I would have loved to have been made out the fool if that had meant having the multies reinstated. I had planned to publically admit to being exactly that if you had indeed pulled it off.

My admiration also extents to the UK sailing body and those of other countries that came to support the UK initiative.

I also believe the Dutch representative voted against multis the second time and that is an absolute disgrace in my opinion.

I never like to admit to sceptisme being right, but from the start I never believed that the powers that are would change their tune beyond a more marktable version of the orginal exclusion. That is the way these things go.

I think we must learn from the kayak example, as compared to being a member of the rowing association and as a seperate association.

I feel that going at it alone may well be initially bad but will be beneficial in the long run. Sometimes you have to pack your bags and go. I feel that the volunteers will come when the need arises. Never in enough numbers but sufficiently so to make the break-off work. Indeed, the amount of dedication and effort you have just spend on MHC and US sailing will go a very long way into getting the other organiation going. At some point we must realize that one of the two is the better investment.

But for now, my hat off to you. A damn shame not much "return of investment" was achieved.

Wouter
Posted By: bvining

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 09:05 PM

Quote
So what is the alternative? Is somebody going to come up with a different set of racing rules?



Golf called and said we could use their rules.
Posted By: Jake

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 09:08 PM

Quote
Quote
So what is the alternative? Is somebody going to come up with a different set of racing rules?



Golf called and said we could use their rules.


bwooohaaaaa haaaa.
Posted By: bvining

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 09:10 PM

I agree with Wouter, we should pack up our toys and separate.

I get absolutely no value from a US Sailng membership whatsoever.

Someone call Boat US and get them to provide regatta insurance coverage.
Posted By: fin.

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 09:32 PM

Quote
Quote
Quote
So what is the alternative? Is somebody going to come up with a different set of racing rules?



Golf called and said we could use their rules.


bwooohaaaaa haaaa.


I'm opposed to reinventing the wheel, but some of this stuff is as clear as mud,
http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm and most of the illustrations use monohulls!

So...!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/27/08 09:51 PM

Bill, It's not that easy!

Will your yacht club host an event for your class when you don't belong to US Sailing and are operating your class on your own RACING rules? I certainly don't know... change is hard for organizations... I can't promise that they will say "sure.. come race... love to have you rebels".

US Sailing could request that the Yacht Club/organizing authority not mix US Sailing certified events with multihull certified events.... just like the Hobie class Association has done for Hobies and non hobie multihulls at their sanctioned events. Now you are asking a club to duplicate its RC efforts...

Will we provide a multihull sanctioned judge for the Protest Room? Do you think the YC will have a positive view of the Instant justice in the Sand/ Arbitration system of a panel of competitors rulling on a protest?

Will we violate some trademark or patent or intellectual property by using the racing rules, appeals, etc etc?

I don't know and I am not pleased with the choices.

The 40 bucks is not that big of a deal... giving those bozo's ANY support at gunpoint just stinks. Moreover, you don't feel that we have a seat at the table and we could not effect a change short of homicide.

My hunch is that YC will not buck the system.

I think a big impact will be on the casual sailor/racer who races on week nights in a non sanctioned series... They might want to do one race a season... Now the price to play doubles and they are simply not going to do it.

Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 12:31 AM

I've kept out of this discussion as I believe that from a certain point of view its an "American" issue to be discussed internally, however, I do have a few thoughts.

1. The people who have posted here and elsewhere saying "I've never been a member..." are partially to blame, US Sailing is an organisation designed to support its members. If US multihull sailors on mass have a history of not supporting US Sailing then why should they support you?

2. In any good discussion/negotiation you can choose to use a carrot or a stick. Many of you are making threats "do what I want or I will leave" has anyone tried a carrot? Talk to all the other cat sailors / associations you know and produce a meaningful list of active cat sailors in the US who would be willing to join and support US sailing IF they showed you some support by working to re-introduce cat sailing to the Olympics.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 02:06 AM

Hi Chris-

Your comments are not unwelcome and perspective is a necessary ingredient in the overall discussion. Events have, however, moved far past the "carrot and stick" phase - we chose carrot last year and made a tremendous effort to meet the conditions given; get other classes in addition to the Tornado to submit themselves as equipment. We also agreed a large majority of cat sailors would not quit USSA in protest - in fact we saw a slight bump in membership as a result of people recognizing your point about participation. I don't imagine there were very many sectors within USSA that could boast membership growth. We did, in my estimation, all the right stuff and we did it in an adult and measured manner. Members of the Board said to me privately that they felt the multihull community simply would not be satisfied unless a cat was back in the 2012 Games; I assured them this was not the case - we just wanted to see the process play itself out in a fair manner and allow for the international majority to prevail, whether that meant a cat or not. We introduced a motion to that effect before the House of Delegates, carefully following procedure and crafting the wording to meet the requirements of the Board as expressed in private conversations and e-mails - it was passed unanimously. Then the Board did what the slim majority wanted to do anyway - our Delegation voted again as a bloc, first to reaffirm the November decision and then to not change men's or women's events. We knew that a majority of the ISAF Council favored revisiting the November decision with or without the US's votes. What dismays me is that we met the Board's conditions for reconsidering events in the case that the Events were reopened and yet they still voted against changing the events. Multihulls have had a majority in every vote on the issue, but without the US bloc, the 2/3rds majority needed could not be achieved.

So - direct talks, cordial interaction, engaged volunteerism, an intensely interested constituency and a successful effort to meet stated conditions = failure. What do you do with that? I'm not being a smartass, I'm serious. I'm experiencing a very real crisis of commitment.
Posted By: Darryl_Barrett

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 04:04 AM

I sympathise entirely with the frustration that is evident with most cat sailers over the apparent disdain in which we are currently being treated by the “establishment” that controls ALL yachting, not only nationally but internationally. I have stated previously, and I will not go into great reiteration of my previous opinions, suffice it to say that, ALL that is occurring now is just a repeat of what occurred 25 years ago. Arguments were made then for multihulls to completely disassociate themselves from the “mainstream” yachting authorities as we were just being “used” to top up their finances then completely ignored as far as any benefits and/or input were concerned. The same arguments then, by the more conservative of the day, were made (and won the day) that we should become more “involved” within the management of the appropriate yachting authorities. Many of us, at the time did just that, but after many, many years of “trying from the inside” to improve the situation for multihulls, most, if not all of us from those days, finally recognised the hard reality of the situation, that being that, no matter how hard we tried, and no matter how many rep’s we had “on the inside”, our voices would still not be of great enough number or “loud enough” be taken into any real consideration. That is why I say now, as I did then, that no matter the difficulties, the only way for multihull sailers to receive any equality within sailing administration circles, is to break away and form our own governing body separate from any YA.
As I have said before, if we don’t we will be having this very same debate again in another 20 years.
A leopard doesn’t change its spots and the YA’S are very large “mono” leopards! (cats with only one leg???)
Posted By: Mary

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 11:20 AM

I think it is all about money. The multihull sailors and organizations are just a drop in the financial bucket (both for US Sailing and the other National Authorities)compared to the membership monies from the monohull community. Therefore, we have no leverage. If we say we are not going to renew our memberships, US Sailing will just say, "Big deal, who cares."
Posted By: fin.

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 12:10 PM

So what do we do? If we go down a new path, I'd like to see the rules revisited. Mono vision doesn't account for closing speeds of cats under spin. If we keep playing by their rules, someone is gonna get hurt.
Posted By: bvining

Re: RSA Positions... CBYRA - 05/28/08 12:49 PM

Mark,

To be honest I didnt understand what US Sailing did for me prior to the Olympic multihull decision. I wasnt a member, I didnt know what they did. I paid the extra $10 bucks when I was asked.

Since the Olympic event came up, and I've read and researched the US Sailing issue, I'm gotten a very bad taste for the organization and I'm definetly not joining now. There's now way I'm supporting them given the way they've treated the multi-hull community. I didnt see value before, now I see far less.

Its an easy choice for me, dont participate in events that require US Sailing memberships. If I walk up to the desk and they ask for a card in order to sail, I wont be able to sail that race. If I have to pay a couple extra bucks because I'm not a member then thats fine.

I'm looking for excuses to travel less with the cost gas anyway. US Sailing is going to make it easier to decide what races to participate in.

Go read the Sailing Anarchy thread, its not just the mulithull community thats pissed with US Sailing, the mono hull crowd is up in arms too. The mandatory membership issue has them asking the value of US Sailing.

Rules can be rewritten, protests can be held on the beach and we all have our own insurance. We can organize our own races, and get volunteers to do the RC work.

But you are right, the YC's wont go along with a change from US Sailing, that was my thought reading the Sailing Anarchy threads.

But we are already mostly a separate group, with separate events, and a not usually part of a traditional YC scene, so I dont think that not being a member of US Sailing is going to dramatically change the way I race.

This issue really sucks, because I am an advocate of doing more racing with the dighy/mono/YC groups as a way to expose more people to multihulls.
Bill
Posted By: Eric Anderson

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 01:06 PM

I would point out that there is an alternative sailing association that has both an international and US class and following. That is the International DN Ice Yacht Racing Association. This group has no affiliation with US sailing and holds its own events at, local, national and international levels. Last years worlds had 213 registrants from ~ 16 countries. Multihulls can go their own way also but only with a lot of effort.

Sail Fast,
Take chances,
Eric Anderson
IDNIYRA US 5193
Posted By: Mary

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 02:28 PM

Quote
I would point out that there is an alternative sailing association that has both an international and US class and following. That is the International DN Ice Yacht Racing Association. This group has no affiliation with US sailing and holds its own events at, local, national and international levels. Last years worlds had 213 registrants from ~ 16 countries. Multihulls can go their own way also but only with a lot of effort.

Interesting that you should bring that up, Eric, because I have been wondering for years why ISAF does not crack down on the iceboaters for holding world events and does not penalize the sailors by banning them from sailing in ISAF-sanctioned events on soft water.
And then, of course, there are also the landsailors, and ISAF does not seem to be bothering them, either.
Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 03:08 PM

Maybe there's parts of the US where the multis could go it alone, but not in the Northern California area. Since the hobie/non-hobie split, the non-hobies have become increasingly dependent on monohulls. Both to provide multihull starts at primarily monohull regattas and to show up to primarily multihull regattas. There's just not enough events and registrants (revenue) otherwise.

Turning this into a monohull vs. multihull war will kill us. Turning this into a Sailors (multi and mono) vs. the US Sailing Junta is our only hope.
Posted By: Kaos

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 03:44 PM

My two cents...maybe 1 1/2 cents... Look in the mirror. I have gone to US Sailing meetings for almost 20 years. I was a local Hobie Fleet commodore, Yacht Club Commodore, Florida Sailing association Commodore, race committee everything on the multihull committees at US Sailing etc. At any US Sailing meeting you could put all of the multihull attendees at one dinner table. Associations need money to run and most importantly volunteers. US Sailing does not get much from the multihull sailors. Neither do Yacht Clubs for that matter. Put your money where your mouth is...ring a bell? The mono put in lots of money and time. Plenty of volunteers. We have a very few who do spend a lot of money and time, John Williams (thanks by the way) to name one. Were we represented? Yes, even on the elite board of US Sailing was a Hobie Cat dealer and that person was not even in our camp. Now, I could point fingers at the Olympic multihull sailors themselves..are they on committees at US Sailing? They got the money. (But it was not much money, they will say) The problem really is not so much the money as the people, your time(in case you havenot noticed, is very expensive). Whether we are talking the Yacht Club level, the race committee level or the US Sailing level, cat sailors suck at volunteering. When my local Hobie Fleet was doing well, I wanted them to join me at the local Sailing Club and get with the progam. No, they had the beach, they do not need to join a Club. You know freedom ,no strings..just sail...Well the local Fleet is dead as far as Hobie Cat is concerned, the sailors long gone. Guess what, more monohulls sailors carry the water than we do. Also the real issue for them (big heavy keel boats) is they are dying. They are fighting for their lives. Catamarans are popular we are not dying.
So you want to have your own Association? Great! Who is going to run it? Start charging money, getting volunteers to represent different areas, have meetings. Spend money etc. Then of course, that Association won't represent me. Yeah, we want to round to port or whatever the variation of the day is... it will be a success or failure based on the volunteers who put in the time and energy to make it successful. I can't wait to see the sign up list. You have two choices, work on the current wheel or re-invent a new one. Eitherway, you better look in the mirror to see who needs to do the work if it going to be successful. Because even on this board, most haven't even sent in their money, let alone done anything. Yep, whatever the solution, it is going to take you. Until then, ranting on a computer is just like the fantasy games. (but it feels good anyway)
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 04:19 PM

I certainly agree with that point. No effort + no money = no success.

NAMSA was originally the springboard for divergence with the monohull mantra, which was revived again when Hobie made their "edict".

Why hasn't the multi community stepped up and bolstered NAMSA's mission?
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 04:25 PM

Obviously there are two distinct issues here that shouldn't be intermingled.

The Olympic multihull issue is totally removed from the mandatory membership issue.

If the multihull community separates from USS, you can count on them to take the anti side forevermore. Whether the other nations that are Cat friendly can swing the tide back without USS support is debatable. It seems that with our support and with respectable dialogue, we might see a more desirable outcome on this issue by the next cycle.

So far as mandatory membership to compete in organized regattas is concerned, that is not a Multihull only issue. It will affect grass roots sailing of all kinds. It makes it less likely that a casual sailor would be able to just show up at a yacht club event and sail. Forcing memberships on casual sailors will only keep them away. Most would pay a slight non-member fee, and they may eventually become members.

I would think that all one-design and open classes, multi or mono, would be affected equally and we should join forces in respectable debate on that issue. I’m sure that there has already been a lot of conversation on both sides of that subject.

One thing is obvious to me, having done a great deal of event organizing in the past…DON”T SPLIT THE PIE NOW!!!

Whatever happens, it will take years for anything good to result, and more likely the downside unintended consequences will be staggering.

As stated by others, volunteers are just not able or willing to do the work that has to be done. Another organization would need very deep pockets on the outset, with a well paid office crew to have any hope of success. Even with that, being recognized by the sailing community would not come quickly or perhaps ever.

Whether we like it or not, yacht clubs are a vital and established force in our sport and they are virtually all aligned with USS. They represent the resources needed to put on quality events which include facilities, manpower and expertise. To do top level events in-house would mean that many top competitors would have to get off their boats and do the organizing and committee work. Trust me, you do not want that.

Jack Woehrle
Posted By: Stewart

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 04:52 PM

there is also the "international canoes" who hold world titles under the Canoe association banner
Posted By: John Williams

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 05:27 PM

Hi Jack -

You and Kaos both echo some of the things going on in my head and that the MHC has already discussed in three meetings in the last year. I have to disagree a little, though on the seperateness of the disatisfaction of multihull sailors and the mandatory membership issue.

Multihull sailors' feelings on Olympic events run the gamut from an unfounded outrage expressed by people who never gave a flip before, to genuine frustration from those who've been "playing the game" but not getting anywhere... and everything in between. Everyone I know has a slightly different take on why it is bad, and some even think it is good. It has been extremely difficult to coalesce a coherent position on the MHC; I and the others on the Council are not complaining - that is just the nature of a representative body and I personally enjoy the work.

But now add to that current sense of disatisfaction the requirement to pay money to the very organization that has put the burr under your saddle. I have been a member since 1998, which is when I decided that my obsession with the sport required me to support the governing body. My level of volunteering has increased year after year. But I was racing cats for years before I ever became aware of US SAILING, happily showing up at regattas and parties while completely ignorant there was a "governing body" beyond the two class associations I belonged to. There is a tremendous number of people like that who will now show up at a race and be told to join US SAILING or leave the boat on the trailer. I just checked and half the F18 fleet that sailed out of our club last weekend are not members. The mandatory membership rule is going to impact that population.

In addition, there is a large contingent of USSA insiders (who aren't multihull sailors) that are using the multihull issue to make the case that the reorganization was bad and that the Board cannot be held accountable by the members anymore. When the House unanimously recommends something to the Board and it is disregarded without consequence, one could legitimately claim the Board is ignoring the membership with impunity.

So, while I appreciate your point and understand your perspective, I have come to feel differently - the Olympic issue has become a part of the mandatory membership issue, all of which relates to a concern about how USSA is currently functioning.

In the last MHC conference call, we adopted the position that we would not support mandatory membership until additional incentives were developed to replace what we feel are eroded benefits. We recognized that, as irrational as it might be, giving someone some stickers and a free magazine with their membership card made them happy to join. Talking about some free accidental death coverage while you're driving to a regatta doesn't do the trick. I told Jim Capron that the Board should consider adding back in some simple, tangible stuff for a couple of years and phase in mandatory membership at a time when morale is a little higher. I think he's wasting his time going around the country and speaking at yacht club dinners selling membership to people who are already members for all the right reasons. It should be telling that despite these talks, some big YAs have formally written to protest, not just the idea of mandatory membership, but the manner in which the Board is handling it.

Anyway - imagine the scene at the 2009 Hobie 16 Championship registration table... having come out of that class I think I can accurately say that the majority of skippers are not members of USSA, but in the new rulebook, they'll be told they have to be. How HCANA handles that remains to be seen - I expect that they're talking about it right now, just like the Race Management Committee at my YC is, trying to figure out what to do. Leave enforcement to the fleet in the form of boat-on-boat protest? Make it an issue at the registration table? Tacitly agree to ignore it with a wink and a nod? Or do you sit down with a fleet of people who are likely to have heard the slightly inaccurate mantra "US SAILING doesn't support multihulls," and explain to them why things have changed and sell them on joining with a smile? Better wear some dark clothes that don't stain easily - I've found it difficult to dodge every tomato. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

ps - Kaos, people hate to be told to either volunteer or stop complaining. I never say that anymore; haven't for a few years now. It isn't reasonable to state the absolute that if you aren't part of the administration of the sport, you have no right to criticize that administration. You and I can make meetings; not everyone can. Those who do, I think, are obligated to listen to those that don't. You are spot on, though, when you say that a break-away association, whether NAMSA, the MHC or the new IMC, is going to need people as a primary resource.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 05:51 PM

If I could vote directly for who was to become ISAF president, instead of by representative to the ninth level, John Williams would get my vote.

There are people willing and able to do good work. The trick is to ask them for something they can do and manage the resources well. Just asking "any volunteers?" dont do it. Sorry if that comment rattles some cages.

John Williams for president <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 05:54 PM

Why not NAMSA
Because it would have duplicated the efforts of the Multihull Council within US Sailing.

The problem we face is in response to mandatory membership and forces us to ask the questions:
IS US SAILING serving it's Mission?
Are they doing the Admin jobs efficiently and professionally?
Do we multihull sailors have adequate input and access (given our membership and financial commitment).

Right now.. Multihull sailors would say No! US sailing is not serving it's mission. (see Olympic fiasco)

#2. The monohull world is evaluating how well US Sailing does the administrative job of the sport. Why? because they now want to charge a mandatory membership fee to race. The sailing anarchy crowd would argue... They do a poor job of this as admin job as well. BUT... few of the multihull crowd would actually KNOW. Matt Bounds and those in the Race Management business think they do a fair job of training. The Olympic cat crowd has had issues with Bodie and Brenner for years... so they would have a clear negative answer to this question.

#3) Finally, it comes down to the rank and file catamaran sailor... have they joined?, ... have they stepped up and served? Have they recognized the need for the administration of the sport beyond their narrow and immediate interest? It would seem that we do NOT do a good job of stepping up... most are not paying the dues (because in their opinion they don't get anything that they can see for their money) Most are not contributing time and effort at organizing the sport, at their fleet, club, Regional, Class, or National level. As Chaos said... we do a hell of a job bitching that someone else is screwing it up. (I haven't digested John W's latest comments though)

Yes it is true... we could step up and create a new organization and operate like the Ice boaters or even the US Windsurfing organization... but we won't... We usually act like spoiled kids... hell ... we can't event manage a pissing contest between Hobie and Non Hobie catamaran regattas.

The Olympics issue is dead. we lost. Our representatives did a great job in the 11th hour and we thank them.

The immediate focus is... and must be... How do you deal with the bad feelings of this mandatory membership on top of the Olympic fiasco?

Most importantly... how do we deal with the effect on turnout of the casual racer at a regatta. The US Sailing policy will effect the marginal racer and any catamaran sailor who is pissed off like Bill V.

For example, in Div 11, the Wildwood regatta has drawn upwards of 20 or 30 Hobie 16's who only come to this one regatta a year. They come for the good ol regatta party ... If the entry required $40 US Sailing and $40 in Hobie Class dues these causal sailors will not show up. Do we care? Does the host club care? How doe we manage this?

IMO. The Yacht Clubs have an identical stake as the multihull sailors in this issue (eg growth of the sport and participation at club events. We need to affiliate and follow their lead. My organization of yacht clubs, CBYRA evaluated this issue and said... It's going to happen... lets manage it.. I would have preferred they fight it out. But, ... I want the sport to continue in my area and we have to evaluate the fundamental issue. Do the Yacht Clubs in my area support Catamaran Racing. The answer is an overwhelming Yes! Therefore, I will encourage everyone to follow the Yacht club programs as a practical matter and set aside the rightness or wrongness issues.

I think that the Olympics and Gran Prix sailing can be viewed as an entirely different issue now. In the US... they USSA does not want to support this level of the sport, We do not need to suck up to the ISAF and US SAILING mafia if we develop our sport independently. For example… the iSHAREs cup seems to be growing quite nicely. So… I think we should work outside of the MNA organization to have a multihull in the Olympics and do this completely separately from ISAF and US Sailing.... I will support the pro sailors when they get organized and ask the International Olympic committee for a slot in the games separately from ISAF.

Mark Schneider
Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 06:22 PM

This whole multihullers don't volunteer idea is BS.

This sport consumes rediculous quantities of volunteer effort all the way down the line. From helping out with a BBQ at a regatta, getting T-shirts printed up, making trophies, serving on Race Committee, holding a position with your local club/fleet/association, etc. etc.
From what I've seen, at least 1/2 of the active racers put in more than 10 hours of volunteer effort a year, and quite a few put in much more. Compared to other sports, I think that's tremendous, and we should be proud of ourselves.

Now we need even more effort. But that's because the problems we face are large, not because we're lazy sacks.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 06:31 PM

<<<So, while I appreciate your point and understand your perspective, I have come to feel differently - the Olympic issue has become a part of the mandatory membership issue, all of which relates to a concern about how USSA is currently functioning.>>>

OK, I see that now, coming from you as an insider. It just seemed like beating a dead horse when there are other horses that need to be ridden.

<<<In the last MHC conference call, we adopted the position that we would not support mandatory membership until additional incentives were developed to replace what we feel are eroded benefits. We recognized that, as irrational as it might be, giving someone some stickers and a free magazine with their membership card made them happy to join.>>>

Freebees do sweeten the pot, especially with casual folks who may feel intimidated to even be there. Never discount the feeling of acceptance when a newbee can put a sticker on his boat or truck that shows he belongs. It may be the only thing that makes him feel good after he gets his butt handed to him on the water. It reminds him he needs to read up and practice and look forward to coming back with better skills. When the magazine arrives in the mail, he is reminded again.

<<<I told Jim Capron that the Board should consider adding back in some simple, tangible stuff for a couple of years and phase in mandatory membership at a time when morale is a little higher.>>>

Makes perfect sense. You are saying then... that there is rank and file discontent beyond the multihull specific issues?

I think my main point still would be to work within the existing structure, whatever that is now. I have just come back to sailing after 25 years of wandering in the vast confusion of race cars and sanctioning bodies. You think sailors have problems?

Count on me to help and offer opinions, whatever they may be worth.

BTW, I noticed my old friend Stan Betts has a position at USS. Do you know him? What side of this would he be on?

Jack Woehrle
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 08:53 PM

<<<<This whole multihullers don't volunteer idea is BS.
The problems we face are large, not because we're lazy sacks.>>>>

I don't think anyone is saying there aren't quality and enthusiastic cat sailor volunteers.

However, most competitors in any sport rarely see very deeply into the organizational side of their passion. You just can’t step in with a whole new scenario and expect consistent results.

Both the current system and a new one would require leagues of volunteers on the beach and on the water. The higher level positions need experience and stability and that usually doesn’t come from casual volunteers.

For Catsailors to strike out on a new tack now would only segment us further. Remember, not everyone will board the boat when it leaves the dock. Once it sets sail and the lines are cast off, fate will take it’s ugly toll. The only option that is viable is to take over from within. That requires understanding the enemy, so to speak, and working within the guidelines set forth. That can be productive with the right people and the right attitude.

I think we have the right people, perhaps they could use more support.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 08:58 PM

Quote

Interesting that you should bring that up, Eric, because I have been wondering for years why ISAF does not crack down on the iceboaters for holding world events and does not penalize the sailors by banning them from sailing in ISAF-sanctioned events on soft water.



Many landyachters and possible iceyachters as well as organised in their own association called FISLY.

At the end of the day ISAF will not pick a fight with a rival organisation of similar international standing.

I think FISLY is even older then ISAF and therefor they will be laughed out of the room if they ever tried anything like that. Also ISAF is not at all interested in landyachts and iceyachts, they are interested in "old boys" monohulls.

Note how the moth class (monohull ?) is having problems with ISAF as well. I'm sure many skiff classes are on a pretty uneven foot with ISAF as well.

Personally I see a good potential for setting up a rival sailing class that encloses all the performance sailboats and sail / kite boards, leaving the archaic monohulls and ocean racers to ISAF. As far as I'm concerned ISAF can have those and continue to live on as a mono ocean racer club.

Wouter
Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 09:16 PM

Mugrace72,

I think we're arguing the same point.

As a group we've been doing a lot already. It's not as if we can just roll up our sleeves and take over the world, because we're already working pretty darn hard.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 10:10 PM

<<<<<I think we're arguing the same point.>>>>

Amen!!!

Now, here's a thought that just came to me. I don't suppose there are a lot of traditional yacht clubs in the high mountains, yet there are many great lakes to sail in. That is the way the Hobie scene came on in Florida in 1972. We sailed mostly at places that didn't have yacht clubs and just sort of came up with simple rules. Yes, we followed the NAYRU book, but rarely followed the organizational part.

We got along pretty well with just cat sailors doin' cat stuff. Volunteers were friends, wives, girl friends and folks who just enjoyed hangin' around.

Sometimes we were welcome at yacht club events, and Hobie came to town once in awhile with the Mid-Winters or Nationals.

It was a lot simpler then. We didn't have NOR's and PRO's.

The courses weren't always perfectly set. Sometimes the starts weren't even to windward!

It was all done by volunteers.

Now everything is so regimented. I'm not sure which is better, but you can't go back!
Posted By: barbshort

Audible draw drop! - 05/28/08 10:42 PM

WHA......?! Sorry for the late arrival on the thread. I must be Rip Van Winkle.

John Williams having a crisis moment at this juncture is earth shaking and left me speechless yesterday.

Seems we are at an important crossroads. Go with the evil you know or head down an uncharted path. Not an easy decision and it needs to be made collectively, making it an even bigger challenge. Wow.

I'm not sure which way I lean yet. But a point on the "break away" path, if I may. It doesn't have to be communicated as a turning the back, cold shoulder, blowing off US Sailing. It can simply be stated that this other organization meets more needs or exceeds the current benefits offered by US Sailing for the multihull community, so we're just comparison shopping and buying from a different store, so to speak. It doesn't have to be a rejection of the "old" store. Just an affirmation that we've found a better deal someplace else. A place we decide to build ourselves. Doesn't come across so negative that way. Don't burn your bridges if you don't have to.

I have to think this thing through, because as a sailing business US Sailing is currently critical to my being able to be in the business of teaching sailing and renting boats. Without US Sailing's Burgee Program I would have to pay astromical business insurance fees. And the US Sailing instructor certification is required to obtain and maintain the Burgee Program insurance package. So I need their training programs, too.

Will my Burgee Program insurance cover non-US Sailing regattas I may organize should a replacement multihull organization separate from US Sailing? Or will I have to buy even more insurance to cover those events? Will my business have to be a member of both US Sailing and a separate multihull organization? Dual memberships will certainly drive up business costs.

What if US Sailing cuts my business off by removing coverage in the insurance program for multihull businesses like mine and won't certify my instructors any more in retaliation against the splinter organization? And what if the splinter group can't provide me those things? Do I go out of business?

On an individual level, would our yacht and sailing clubs turn us out as members/ostracize us if we support a splinter organization? Would US Sailing MAKE them turn us out of their membership/ostracize us if we're not US Sailing members? We don't have any other physcal place to sail here if we lose our membership at the club.

So many questions! My head spins.
Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/28/08 11:01 PM

Nowadays if you want to put a mark in the water you need a permit. If you need a permit, you need insurance and a chase boat, and you need to be getting organized at least four months in advance.

Maybe a Yacht Club can get a single permit that covers all of their regattas. But a nomadic club has to get a permit for each event and deal with a different bureaucrat (often from a different agency with different requirements) each time. And to put all this effort in for a declining number of racers burns people out pretty quick. And with declining numbers it's hard to replace them.

Unless a miracle happens and people switch from jetskis to cats in droves, I think we're going to grow ever more dependent on Yacht Clubs. So we need to make common cause with them, not separate further from them.
Posted By: Herbie53

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/29/08 01:00 AM

Perhaps already covered in this very long thread... yes I to damn lazy to read it all, but what leverage does US Sailing have on sailing/yacht clubs and one design orgs. to force this issue?

If a group holds an event and specifically writes this requirement out of the rules and ignores it what will US Sailing do to them?

ps / edit ... how to provide a US Sailing "membership" number
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: thoughts from the side line - 05/29/08 02:30 AM

I see the ONLY foot hold they have is on yacht clubs. Many of the one-design classes feel the same way we multi-hullers do about this issue. I now know that many dinghy class, as well as HCA, are leaning heavily to resounding opposition of this mandate.

In development of our "one-design" sailing center (Thistle, Scot, Laser, multi's) USSA was little or no help. And this help was requested by long time, and loyal members.

PHRF boats are the meat of USSA's "concern", let those guys pay a dollar amount per foot. It's like requiring the college buddies to pay $75 and join the USGA when they go for their annual round of golf. I don't think it will fly (pass)

Regarding permits. USSA has never assisted us in obtaining permits. In our experience, the more you expose yourself to the powers at be, the easier (and cheaper <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) the process becomes.

Regarding insurance, they'll take anyones money and they have different plans available, we purchase for our HCA division direct, it's very reasonable.

Mark, I feel your pain, and there are alternatives.

Hey, I'd pay an extra $25 to USSA when racing in an NAC, is anyone proposing compromises?
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/30/08 10:42 PM

Quote
To
Bob Hodges, (A Class) Bob Merrick (Hobie Classes) Jack Young (Nacra Classes)(Shark, Isotope F16, F18 commodores)

US Sailing will mandate that all skippers be members of US Sailing.... no more regatta surcharge that stays with the YC.

Will your Yacht Club honor that US Sailing demand and deny your sailors entry in your NA championship regattas.



http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/hcana/downloads/2008/HCAlettertoUSSA.pdf
Posted By: H17cat

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/31/08 04:05 AM

[/quote]

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/hcana/downloads/2008/HCAlettertoUSSA.pdf [/quote]

Bob, good letter, well put.
Caleb Tarleton
Posted By: Stewart

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 05/31/08 02:27 PM

tell me what exactly does USSA do to "organise US championships".. Apart from rubber stamping?

Again in general I feel this is another "nancy pansy" reply to USSA initiatives and screwing cat sailors in general.

Please tell us why the dropping of the only cat class in the Olypmics was a shared Hobie and USSA goal? Wouldn't this alone have been enough to cause protest officially?

Just another missed opportunity by a leading cat class organisation.. When will the official "international classes" leadership get a backbone?
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 03:05 AM

Quote
tell me what exactly does USSA do to "organise US championships".. Apart from rubber stamping?

They assist in the financing of the event. e.g. Alter Cup.

Quote

Again in general I feel this is another "nancy pansy" reply to USSA initiatives and screwing cat sailors in general.

Please tell us why the dropping of the only cat class in the Olypmics was a shared Hobie and USSA goal?

Dropping the Tornado class from the Olympics is certainly not a goal of the Hobie Class Association of North America. (Speaking as a board member)

Quote

Just another missed opportunity by a leading cat class organisation.. When will the official "international classes" leadership get a backbone?

Hmmm. I see this as more like pragmatic, constructive engagement with U.S. Sailing - pointing out that the mandatory membership just doesn't make sense for the Hobie Class Association in North America - rather than trying to link the rejection of mandatory membership for skippers to the dropping of the Tornado class from the Olympics. Bob is the leader of the class in North America - not the leader of the IHCA.

Chris Green
Chair, Division 6
Posted By: Stewart

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 03:45 AM

So how much financing does the "US national Hobie championships" obtain each year from USSA?

The "pragmatic, constructive engagement with U.S. Sailing" tack has been tried and it fails beautifully. Just ask John Williams.. Please try and recall an open letter to cat sailors from USSA, saying USSA would support a cat class at the Olympic level and TWICE voting against it when push came to shove.

Lets be clear..
Bob is the chair of a significant cat class inside USSA, which pushed and orchestrated for the succesful vote against Cats (the boat class competing was yet to be decided). So again what letter has the US National Hobie association done to place a line in the sand? So far its all "nancy pansy"...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 04:23 AM

Sounds to me like the Hobie class will not implement this new rule when they (NAHCA) are the organizing authority for the regatta. ... no matter what USSA decrees in then next few weeks. They gave two pretty good reasons... (deters new racers and enforcement will detract from the event)

What more do you want?


(It would be nice if the Performance classes, the NAF18, F16's and the other classes step up and made their position clear).
Posted By: mbounds

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 11:09 AM

Quote
So how much financing does the "US national Hobie championships" obtain each year from USSA?


First of all, there are no US Hobie National Championships. We have a North American Championship, which by the way, has not been won by a US citizen in a while. Mexicans, Guatemalans and Puerto Ricans have been dominant.

Secondly, US Sailing does not support individual class championships. They conduct various "discipline-based" national championships - men's, women's and youth single-handed, double handed, triple handed, multihull, keelboat, match and team racing.

Thirdly, for many years, US Sailing has supported (with direct $) US citizen Hobie Sailors attending world championships.

I'm not happy with US Sailing, either. I'm just as involved with the organization as John Williams. Your approach does more harm than good.

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 01:09 PM

Hobie Sailors? Why are they in the business of promoting Hobie now? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> If so they are doing a very poor job of it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Stewart

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 03:29 PM

your approach only works IF both sides regards the issues as major and the relationship as major or high priority. Hence seeking a win/win solution is the best for both parties.. If one of the parties does not see the relationship as major then this approach is going to fail.. Its not it may but it will the only issue is when and how badly the positive side will loose by..

However USSA appears the regard the relationship with cats sailors as a low priority relationship but more of a money making inconvenience.. They do not want nor need a cat class relationship by their actions.. Ergo the letters and actions must vary.. (yes I can also quote Sun Tzu or a variety of conflict resolution books if you wish)

Fact is your approach is bound to fail and fail spectacularly unless USSA really wants the cats in the fold..

Hence you use the same predatory tactics they have employed.. Only be smarter...
Posted By: Stewart

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/01/08 03:31 PM

I agree, I would love to see a real stand made by the performance and international classes.. But its probably not going to happen..
Posted By: Acat230

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/02/08 04:23 PM

Quote
Sounds to me like the Hobie class will not implement this new rule when they (NAHCA) are the organizing authority for the regatta. ... no matter what USSA decrees in then next few weeks. They gave two pretty good reasons... (deters new racers and enforcement will detract from the event)

What more do you want?


(It would be nice if the Performance classes, the NAF18, F16's and the other classes step up and made their position clear).


The A-Class NAC is in late September and the USSA mandatory membership will be an agenda item if it comes to pass. In fact, we (the class executive committee) will probably address it as it applies to the 2008 NAC. I've thought quite a bit about our position and I plan to recommend we follow a path similar to the Hobie Class in not enforcing that requirement at USACA sanctioned events.

Regarding the Olympic multihull issue, I still plan to not pay my 2008 USSA dues as my own form of personal protest against the policies and attitudes of US Sailing. I'll wait and see for 2009.
Posted By: bvining

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/02/08 07:59 PM

Way to go Bob.

Good stance on the non-enforcement at USACA events.

I'm boycotting any regatta that requires USSA membership, or collects an extra fee for not being a member.

Bill
Posted By: AlecThigpen

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/04/08 08:40 PM

I dropped my membership in USSA back in the 90s when they first started showing disinterest in the Multihull community. They originally only courted us until NAMSA disbanded and endorsed them to its members, then after they had our membership money, they once again reverted back to Mono-snobbery. They helped with the Alter Cup mostly as a token to keep us paying and make it look like they were interested. They aren't, and they won't be. I also wrote a letter as did Bob, and it also was fed to the shredder.

Back when the catamaran was in its most successful time, we didn't need an organizing authority, we had 50-100 boats at our events, we had mixed brands, one design classes, and it was easy and fun. Most of us volunteered for race committee on a rotational basis, and we didn't need anyone's stamp of approval to hold a regatta other than filing a regatta form with the Coast Guard and notifying the Marine Police. We also didn't have as many hungry lawyers and no one got injured seriously, at least due to fault of the RC or other sailors. I recall one electrocution due to somemone attempting to pull their boat across a road with the mast up and not checking for power lines.

If things were to get back to that, I would love to come back to cat sailing, but I don't see that happening. I just don't see the same level of one design simple fun there, except possibly with the Wave class.

For those who think membership in USSA is necessary to enjoy competitive sailing, stay with USSA, or better, NAMSA in the newer format. Most of us had more fun the old way. If you ever wonder where the thousands of racers went, I am one who left because of the idiocy of structured organization and politics that USSA finds so appealing. I find it discouraging that many in the catamaran community, some from the first, and now the second generation, that were so free spirit in the 70s and 80s has fallen into the institutional mindset. Heavily structured and regulated fun ceases to be fun.
Posted By: brucat

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/04/08 10:09 PM

"I'm boycotting any regatta that requires USSA membership, or collects an extra fee for not being a member."

Excellent, another shortsighted kneejerk reaction. Way to go, really "sticking it to the man..."

All you're actually doing is hurting your friends that are hosting regattas. If the regatta hosts are playing by the rules, we are all supposed to be charging a surchage in exchange for the fact that we have the benefit of a Golden Anchor program for all multihull classes.

Sorry Bill, you just really hit a nerve...

"We have a North American Championship, which by the way, has not been won by a US citizen in a while. Mexicans, Guatemalans and Puerto Ricans have been dominant."

I think Matt is being modest. He won the 17 NAs in 2006. The 16s have been dominated by non-US sailors for a number of years, but US sailors still do well in the 14, 17, 18, 20 and Tiger NAs. Not to mention kids and women. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike
Posted By: GISCO

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 12:11 AM

I know that I am getting older and my memory may be fading, but as I recall USYRU did not court the multihulls. Since they were the governing body for the sport of sailing in the US, a number of us led by Francie Jarvis, went to them in 1985. At first we were a committee and then became a council in 1986. USYRU did not have any involvement with the Alter Cup. It was the council's program to show that we were part of the organization. Almost all the programs Fast and Fun, sailing 101, Golden Anchor for multihulls were proposed by the council. As I see it for the last 20+ years is there has been to few of us we's involved against too many they's.

As far as going back to the good old days, maybe we should all buy Hobies and go back to sailing off the beach if we can find access.

Gordon
Posted By: bvining

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 11:46 AM

Quote

Excellent, another shortsighted kneejerk reaction. Way to go, really "sticking it to the man..."


Well, actually no, since the Acat class isnt supporting USSA this year, I dont think I will be "hurting my friends" since the majority of the regatta's that I am going to attend this year are Aclass events.

Bill
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 02:08 PM

Bill

Do you think the Yacht Club that hosts the regatta might have an opinion and a stake in this?

They provide the PRO, and RC people trained by US Sailing Volunteers.
They provide the Judges, trained by US Sailing volunteers.
They provide the structure for the Junior programs to feed into and lead to a nationals. All Volunteers

OH... and they might even get their insurance package from a company that negotiated with US Sailing . US Sailing worked to get the details right (and so the club did not need to waste their time)
The clubs volunteers who serve on the board as directors don't need this kind of stress and the membership does not want to see their property threatend by any losses.

You are missing the point... the issue is not US Sailing membership... yeah or neah for you the individual.

The issue is MANDATORY membership and what it means to the yacht club and the class who are doing their best to make events succesful. Read the Hobie letter... they got it right!

If you race sailboats... you should belong. not a lot of good reasons for why not.

If you don't... you are a cheap !@#$ freeloader.

Protesting the Olympic fiasco as an individual is your choice... ( and I am sure you would have joined the Finn Sailors in protest if THEY had gotten the boot). Don't conflate this with mandatory membership THAT HAS NOT EVEN happened.

Remember... our entire racing program is run by volunteers... Its's a compact... to keep it running... you volunteer to help run events, you pay the memberships, you support the events in your area.

When you fail to take your responsibility for one of those areas... the compact starts to fall apart.

So... you think that not paying your dues and not supporting your events will be positive for the organized sport of sailing? Not in my book!
Posted By: brucat

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 03:35 PM

The "unenforceable" part could be resolved, but likely won't be.

At the Newport meeting in the spring, I pointed out during the rules meeting the language that the IHCA uses (Class Rule 26), which requires one IHCA member per boat. This is much simpler to enforce than each person who touches the helm. (Forget about how to know if someone is a member, that's another issue entirely.)

Jim didn't get it (at all), and some other major players in the room liked the concept, but appararently thought that was too easy and started changing the verbiage. I reiterated several times that they really need to keep it simple to have any chance of success, but I don't think they were listening after the first few tries...

Mike
Posted By: walkefmb

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 03:44 PM

Quote

Remember... our entire racing program is run by volunteers... Its's a compact... to keep it running... you volunteer to help run events, you pay the memberships, you support the events in your area.

When you fail to take your responsibility for one of those areas... the compact starts to fall apart.

So... you think that not paying your dues and not supporting your events will be positive for the organized sport of sailing? Not in my book!


Neatly articulated and quite true. Might a bit harsh, but illustrates the reality of the new era with permitting among the many obstacles now ebing enforced. We needed a $550.00 permit to inspect a tractor to drive on the beach for 3 days! Involvement is more than volunteering as RC or grillmaster etc. Should this all be handled by a for profit entity? That is sure to bring about a decline in the turnout and participation at all levels. USSailing may not be ideal but as illustrated earlier in the thread inroads can be made via MHC Don't forget IOC et al are comprised of more than USSailing. There's plenty of blame to spread around rather thickly.
Yes that is a fleet of optikids getting a bit of inspiration from the pros. Don't forget that you will have to race against the same folks FOREVER unless there is a bit of this kind of attention to the little kids. Sorry, they are really RCs, volunteers,and grillmasters of the future. They might also end up changing your adult diapers.

Attached picture 147302-alinghioptis.jpg
Posted By: USA1273

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 06:11 PM

Quote

They might also end up changing your adult diapers.


Speaking of which - Happy Bithday and conratulations on making it another year.

I will be paying my US Sailing dues as I have since 1990 when I started sailing with Bill Martin (USYRU former Pres). I would personally rather donate the money to CISA or Sail Sandpoint Youth Sailing where I could see the impact first hand. Where I struggle is that I have paid dues this year to 1 national authority, 3 national class associations, 2 yacht clubs, 2 local fleets, not to mention entry fees ranging between 35 and 200+ dollars to race. Granted it is nothing like the TP52 dues which are $5000.00 annually but if you add up the national, regional and local dues along with the cost of gas to travel go race aginst 12+ boats it is no wonder that we get reduced fleet sizes. Wail all you want against US Sailing but the truth is everyone managing this sport has had their hand out for years.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 06:41 PM

Good point... I hear this complaint often. Wow... look at all of the organizations with a hand out!

So:
What service is redundant between all of those organizations.

What service is costly and not needed?

I always bitch about this as well... but when I look at this way... I have little basis for complaints. It's not a cheap sport as we know.
Mark
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 06:50 PM

remember the us voted the cats out because there was no heir apparent to contend for the medals after this year. And lets face it the olympics are about medals, so the us went where they thought there was the best chance of a medal.
Posted By: Jake

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 06:52 PM

Quote
remember the us voted the cats out because there was no heir apparent to contend for the medals after this year. And lets face it the olympics are about medals, so the us went where they thought there was the best chance of a medal.


What's your point? There are heirs to contend for medals - they just didn't see (look for) them.
Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 06:55 PM

Quote
Quote
remember the us voted the cats out because there was no heir apparent to contend for the medals after this year. And lets face it the olympics are about medals, so the us went where they thought there was the best chance of a medal.


What's your point? There are heirs to contend for medals - they just didn't see (look for) them.


Yeah, didn't Lovell/Ogletree have some pretty tough competition in the selection trials this year?
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 06:56 PM

Knowing that Robbie Daniel missed out on winning the Olympic bearth by 1 point in the last race of the trials this year, the arguement that there is no future medal contender just does not hold water with me. For US Sailing to use that arguement is pure BS!
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 07:05 PM

37 KENDALL Anthony Bruce NZL SELLERS Brett
TUKE Blair 4 37 36 2312
38 MIRSKY Andre BRA NALDI Gualberto
PONTES Daniel 5 38 33 2138
39 THINSCHMIDT Donald USA FARRAR Jonathan
WIERDA Andrew 4 39 35 1766
40 KOWALEWSKI Piotr POL K&#322;OSOWICZ Maciej 3 41 40 1663
41 LUO Youjia CHN CHEN Xiuke 3 42 39 1659
42 SHAW David NZL SHAW Susan 2 43 42 1362
43 SACH Helge GER SACH Jens-christian
TOLSDORF Kim-patrick 4 44 1 1337
44 DANIEL Robbie Daniel USA CHU Gary 3 45 17 1318
45 LANGWORTHY Rohan AUS BENSON

Current ranking seem to support the decision
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 07:06 PM

15 MARCOLINI Francesco ITA BIANCHI Edoardo 7 12 11 4731
16 HAGARA Roman AUT STEINACHER Hans Peter 7 18 1 4700
17 LOVELL John USA OGLETREE Charles 7 17 1 4690
18 GUICHARD Yann FRA GUYADER Alexandre 7 15 3 4600
19 FIGUEROA Enrique PUR HERNANDEZ Jorge
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 07:09 PM

I'm not saying I like the decision I'm just saying that I can see the influence on the decision. I've seen alot of negative but not much talk about the reasons behind the decision.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 07:19 PM

I vote Jake's smoking monkey go over there and represent us!
Posted By: walkefmb

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 07:31 PM



Speaking of which - Happy Bithday and conratulations on making it another year.

Thank you very much. 21years since the toe tag should have been applied if I recall. Screw all this political nonsense. I'm putting my boat together right now and I am going to Cabbage Key and then probably Captiva for a birthday sail and beer without the kids. They'll probably just commit me to the old folks home anyways.
Besides I know USSailing won't care for me either even with 17years of annual dues, go figure.

PEA we'll talk later. Gotta go! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Attached picture 147319-tornado17kids.jpg
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/05/08 07:33 PM

Just cause your country has cat sailors does not mean you get a ticket to the party. You do realize that Enrique F, (known to walk on water in US Hobie circles) could not qualify Puerto Rico this cycle. That gives you some idea just how tough it is.

You could make the case that the US would have missed the 2012 multihull games no matter the politics.

But, this shouln't have been the basis of the USSA vote. and that is the fundamental point. The USSA should have signed onto the 5 disiplines ideal had they represented the best interest of sailing.
Posted By: AlecThigpen

Re: U.S. A-Class Association speaks out - 06/11/08 05:37 PM

Gordon, at any rate, minor details notwithstanding, USYRU and USSA have not been really interested in the cat sailors. The one-design Hobies, Prindles, and Nacras really were the best way to hone skills and membership in the unions did very little in that regard. Rick White and Mary Wells have done more for catamaran sailing than either USSA or USYRU combined. I would even guess that NAMSA back in the 70s and 80s also did more than the national sailing authorities did to promote the sport.

It's the current sailor's game now, as I am out of it, but sometimes old memories are worth revisiting. Thanks for the correction of details.

I think with the undeniable popularity of the Wave, thanks in large part to Rick and Mary, many are in fact, going back to Hobies launched off the beach. That can't be a bad thing.
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