What about the 18sq

It seems that historicaly the most sucessfull classes world wide have been very restrictive in their rules. By definition 1 design is restrictive, but clases like the Tornado and F18 are as well. The A class is 1 of the few gaining world wide support that has not had a very restrictive rule set. They are now fighting because of that, over the use of curved dagger boards.

Within the sailing community there is a group who really likes to tinker with their boats as much or more than actually sailing them. The C class exists for the ultimate in tinkering, but the boats are of a size and complexity that very few can afford to play. There are therefore those people pushing to try their ideas within existing classes with more loosely written rule sets.

What interest is out there to revive the old 18 sq concept in some form. It is a length that will accomdate most people's weight yet is samll enough the expense can be a little more in control.

No min boat weight, but a displacement (or righting moment)to sail area rule. Soft or hard rigs, foils, spins, what ever you can dream of. Maybe tie it into an adventure race like the Worrell 1000 days. 18 feet long and the boat has to survive the conditions.

Sounds like fun to have an experimental/development class like that -- but why make it wider than trailerable?

I miss the Worrell 1000 days in the 1980's when they had the Open Development Class. Some really interesting concepts and inventions. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It would be great to get people tinkering and thinkering again.

Matt,

I think trailerability is an issue the negatively affects the 18sq compared to the A-class. Even the Tornado has not been as popular as it could be. There seems to be something appealing about being able to trailer a boat platform flat legally, even though tilt trailers can be pretty slick.

what do you mean, 'revive'? The Square hasn't died. Just depends on where you are. Lake Norman YC has a fleet, and there's a small fleet central Gulf.

Here's a website:
http://www.geocities.com/mec_coleman/18square.htm

The Square doesn't HAVE to be wide. There is no restriction on beam. It just makes sense to have the width if you can do so. If I recall, (and Dave can chime in) Tilley is building what is effectively a narrow-beam Square. Of course those who know Tilley know how tall he is, so he makes his own righting moment ;-)

Dennis Palin use to take his apart every race and put in on top of his popup camper. AND this was by himself. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> AND he was real fast at doing it. Usually had his boat rigged BEFORE us. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Doug

I would guess it takes about one hour to rig, depending on how the trampoline is done?

Why is the 18sq, squared? I don't get it.

18 feet long * 18square meters of sailarea = 18^2 = 18sq <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cool class if a bit heavy and should really be solo rightable (is it?).

I like Matts suggestion, but are there enough builders/tinkerers around who wants to be competitive?

I'm not sure it is so much about being "competitive" on the water as about being competitive in terms of coming up with innovative ideas.

I think it is a great idea to have everybody use the same basic platform and come up with unique ways to use it. And then have races to test what works best.

Sounds like what the original cat sailors were doing back in the late 1950's, when pretty much everything was experimental and they all got together once a year to test their projects against each other. (Mostly A-Class, I think.)

It's not about who wins the race, but whose innovation has the most potential.

Do any of you guys belong to the Amateur Yacht Research Society?

Before I bought an F16 I did a fair bit of design and thinking about a new take on an 18sq.

Mainsail was smaller, (around 15sq), but with a Kite; approx 12 feet wide; 18 feet long and aiming for between 85 and 95kg.

But I chickened out!

Maybe one day!

this is an interesting rule:

"Hydrofoils are permitted"

I was looking at that too. I like the rules, there's only 12. Unlimited beam width also. At what point does the righting moment of added beam become a hinderance of added weight I wonder. Tacking a 12' wide boat must be interesting as well, at least running the extra 4 feet would be.

The problem with excessive width to length ratio is pitchpoling. You drive the bow under and "wahooo", that is slow. If the guys settled in on 11 feet, I am pretty certain that is a good starting point. That is, unless you do as Simon suggested and also change the rig layout.
Tacking a 10 feet wide boat is not that bad if it is relatively light. Even better with a modern hullshape.

We have never had many squares where I come from however-
In the early 80s I remember watching a 18sq pass me to leeward when going upwind ,
he was flying a hull and an awful long way off the water, I still remember thinking "man! that would be one hell of a ride".
The 18sq is a great concept.
I like the Category 1 as the Category 2 is a little too heavy for my liking.
However from what I've read Wild Turkey virtually killed off the Cat 1 18sqs. no one else could be bothered with the solid sail
and WT virtually ran away and hid. Well according to the mag article I have.
I think Cat 1 with the Cat 2 mast restrictions would be a good combination. This seems to be the basis of Dennis Palin's design.
I love the concept of single handing 200sq ft of sail upwind on a craft with an 11 to 14 ft beam.
The kind of things dreams are made of.

However before embarking on such a class again I think some questions need to be asked.
If Wild Turkey really did kill of the Cat 1 18sqs why don't we see more Cat 2 squares?
Is it the beam of the craft that is restricting its appeal? Would "wings" work, and deliver the best of both worlds?
There is no doubt that Dennis Palin's machine is a work of art. Would it have the same appeal without it's wide beam?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions but interested in hearing what others think.


Dennis's Machine

Y'all aren't looking at my picture, nor at the website, for your questions are answered at the website, for the most part.

That is ex-Palin's boat (Palin's ex-boat?) in the foreground, the Bird now owns it. Her name is "Carbonated Wood." Her beam is 12 feet. The production NACRA Squares were 11 feet.

What happens with a Sq is that because of the beam, the hull doesn't fly to warn you that you're overpowered.

I have a righting pole which seems to work well in the experimental deliberate flipping I've done. Palin did the sail-lift trick, walking around on the hulls, rounding the boat up to the wind angle to get the sail's assistance to right C.W.

if I recall, down there in Oz there used to be a 16 square class and NACRA made production models for that.

Phill, don't you have the series of pix of Palin building C.W.?

What killed the class is people's laziness. They don't want to a.take apart the boat or b.trailer tilted. Remember, this is the U.S., land of immediate gratification...

I usually won't respond to a post like this; I have good health and limited time, and I'm not going to change anybody's mind, but members of this community like Kevin Cook, Greg Scace, and Wouter have contributed to my enjoyment of and skill in sailing, and I would like to give some back.

I have spent considerable time this year corresponding w/
Matt, Wouter, Phill, Skip Elliott, John Lindahl et. al. trying to nail down what I think would be close to an ideal beach cat and seeing what could be built or modified. My basic parameters were: 18' length (there has been so much development at 18': the 18sq, A cat, F-18, and this adds directly to what is useable for a modified application), under 280lb, sailable by one, but enough buoyancy for 2. An A cat mast is tall enough, sail area is probably about right if you ad a genaker, need to stiffen the mast. My experience is that an 18' boat with 30' mast needs more beam than 8.5' beam. A Tornado is a dream to handle over my P-19 and that is (IMO) due to the beam. Skip said he thought most of the 18sq guys went too far, 10' beam was adequate. Anyway, make it whatever you want. The beam v. trailering is a major issue. If we had some automotive/aircraft engineers and a manufacturing outfit that thought they had a big enough market and money to be made, we would have a slick affordable expandable beam system in short order. 'Till then we will have to make our own trade-offs. It seems to me that we could easily use one of the newer F-18 hulls, put it on a diet and we would have something.

I corresponded w/ Phill, he won't sell his Blade F-18 plans in a lean layout, and he isn't working on an 18' hull.

I drove to CA to sail a Marstrom A, (Randy S. said it was like the ocean liner of As) to see if it was slightly rerigged and beamed if it could be a bastardized but workable candidate. Actually this has been done with some degree of success, but the hull volume appeared marginal for 2up and the chorus of "you won't like it" was enough to quabash that idea.

So, I've been talking to John Lindahl, initially to see if the LR2 could be modified for my use. He and Roake thought it would be better to go back to the drawing board. John has a building method that does not require a female mold. So, I'm hoping we can work something out. By me sourcing out all the rest of the components from off-the-shelf or DIY I might be able to afford a one-off. I realize this is jumping a bit off the deep end, but John is very impressed with the design and Randy S. thought the basic parts and concept were good, he dubbed it the "Catalina Cruiser". Knowing the breadth of both these guys experience I feel I can take a chance if I can afford it.

Another way of looking at this is like the F16hp. Wouter did a great job of optimizing the parameters, and of course Phill had this great idea and very clever skills and drive to produce the Blade. And the F16hp is probably adequate for 95% of my sailing, and I will probably eventually get one, but 'there is no substitute for waterline'. I personally like 19', but in order to lose 120 or more lbs.... well I think the 18sq have shown what can be done.

I have little doubt that this boat will eventually be mass produced. It is what the vast majority of us want after we have sailed some years. Although the majority of successful classes have been fairly strict (to the manufacturers profit) As and Tornadoes have shown innovation don't have to destroy a class, it can give it life.

I hope I don't see a myriad of posts about this idea or goal won't work, blah, blah, blah. There is not an original idea in this post, and in fact not one idea that I haven't see done already. It's just a matter of putting it together into a user friendly package. If you have a realistic vision, you find ways to solve or cope with problems, not trip over them for the rest of your life.

Trailering is a persistent problem, but when enough of us set that aside long enough to experience the advantages of adequate beam, we might have a new paradigm.

So, Matt I think you have hit upon something that a lot of us have thought about. I certainly would like to see the concept modified and brought to even limited production. I believe that eventually there will be just 2 or 3 classes of beach cats racing, and everyone in the class will race wo/ handicap. First over the line wins! But a lot of whiners and believers in Slot Effect will have to die off first. Steve

To revive the 18 would be a great idea, especially for European catsailors who would discover these big A-Cat.
The point is to make these boats competitive for a Texel round or any Interserie regattas.
The boat should allow a single-hand crew to compete with a Marström M20 GTI (27 sqm sail area = Close to 300 sq feet)

So the points will be: the weight and the kite area.

Yeah, a wider Acat with more sail area and equal amounts of spin and only a slight bit heavier.

Thats the ticket.


I made the HT 8'6" wide and she's really nice now singlehanded. The mast is too heavy to right with one person, so its not a perfect single hander, and over 15knots I'd be in trouble, so 20sq main is too much.

How about 15m2 main, 20m2 kite, 18ft long, 30ft mast, 8'6" wide and 90kg all up?

How about 15 sq. mtr. main, 17.5 sq.mtr spi, 16.5 foot long 28 foot mast 8'2" wide and 104 kg all up when in singlehanded use.

All that combined with an established class, several builders the world over, approaching official international recognized status and already beating A-cats around the course for only 75% of the costs of a new A and halve the cost of that new imaginary all carbon 90kg/18 footer!

Speed difference is not that big about 7 points under Texel between the F16 and new 18sq + spi = about 3 minutes per 45 minute race if you can hold her down singlehanded.

Alot of things can be said about the F16's but nobody is calling them underpowered in 1-up mode. I would not install a bigger engine on a lighter boat even if I got it for free.

Wouter

One must remember that as one widens the boat it becomes more overpowered off the wind than up wind so it becomes unbalanced as a complete package. Evidence of this is the propensity to pitch if not trimmed well easing off the wind and tris are more affected by this factor again.

Thanks for your interesting remark WarBird, it sparks a question:

There is probably a theorical trade-off, according to the maximum righting moment available with the kite.

In any case it should be slightly different from the Marstrom M18, or other singlehanded @ 2.60 meters wide, with 16 sqm meters main and 16 sqm kite.
Or may be this box rule is the best trade-off?
After all, 32 sqm to manage is enough for "old salts" like me.
On my side I don't feel for a 16 after saling A-Cat for years.

Tami,
Just to be sure I checked again and Denis Palin is still listed as an 18sq contact. If he has sold his boat is he still sailing squares? I hope the answer is yes.

Yes, I have a number of pics of Dennis's square under construction.

You are also right about 16 squares, they did and still do have 16 squares in Australia but they are trail able width ie around 8ft beam.

BTW:-
Anyone know where Wild Turkey is now?

Regards,
Phill