roller furling question

As you may remember, I posted a while back while searching for a catamaran. I had gone and looked at a supercat 17, posted pictures, and asked for your opinions on whether it was a good buy for $300. The general concensus was that while Supercats are great boats, the particular one I was looking at was too much of a project boat.

In the end, I bought Turbocat's Nacra 5.0 and have been enjoying it ever since.

(Small side note: forgetting to rotate the mast 90 degrees when taking it down costs $50.49 plus shipping for a new dolphin striker rod.) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Anywho, recently I became curious about roller furlings and looked them up online. Holey cripes are they expensive. I looked back at the pictures I had taken of the Supercat and what do you know, a roller furling.

It appears to be a Harken





Now, I'm wondering if I could use this roller furling on my Nacra. What does installing this system entail beyond just the pictured unit? Are they particular to each design of boat or are they generic? Do you have to have a battenless jib? Some kind of hardware at the mast so that the forstay can rotate?

If this guy, who you may recall is a friend of the family, still has the boat, do you think it would be worth trying to talk him into selling me just that roller furling?

Yes battenless jib and you will need some type and swivel and a pulley system to raise the jib. Some jibs are zippered like on my Hobie 17 and some have little plastic pieces that slide over the halyard. OH and use a 1 to 2 system. Make furling a snap when the wind picks up or between races.

Hope this helps,

Doug

Harken used to make a unit similar to the Hobie-18 system - the furler drum fits below a stainless bridle attachment piece - that would be preferable so you don't lose as much on the forestay lenght, IMO. You might try trolling for a used Hobie-18 furling set up.

You can use battens on a rolle furling jib - however they must be conifgured properly. Some boats only have a batten near the top of the sail, and if it's flexible enough it can roll right up (Hobie-20). In other cases the batten pockets are moved so that they are almost parallel to the luff of the sail - they still give support to the leech of the sail but can be rolled up. Most modern boats offer a furling or non furling jib, with the battens configured appropriately.

Hi
I had a fitted to my nacra 5.0(that's what they are called in AUS)it had a bridle foil on it,and i found that the angle had to be just right to get the jib to furl,It could have been the way the foil held the furler under load??
You might have to also make up a new forestay to allow for the furler
Just a thought

Most everyhting you need should be on this page:

http://www.murrays.com/archive/41.pdf

Don't know if the Super H-17 kits bridle foil would fit, BUT it would give you all the hardware you needed except for jib. That is what I use with custom reacher on my H-17.

Doug

The original furling set ups on the early SC20s were from Ronstan, less pricey than the Harken set up you have pictured. I recently bought the drum for less than $60 from Rigging Only, and I believe the upper swivel was about the same money. Rick can probably get them as well at the OnLine Store. They worked fine on that boat, and I have the pictured Harken drum and swivel on Flight Risk's screecher. It's more than you need for a small cat jib, although it will work fine. Your forestay will need shortening, which might make your existing jib need modification. I'd recommend holding off till you're willing to have a new jib made specifically for furling.

Dave

You will need:

furling drum

top swivel

shorter forestay wire (can probably shorten the existing one) so it goes between the swivel and the drum.

pigtail forestay for the swivel to the mast hound - may be able to shackle the swivel right to the hound with a long or doubled up shackles.

Block for jib halyard

lower cleat for jib halyard (must cleat on the part of the forestay that turns) - this is usually a metal piece of hardware that pins to your forestay chainplate. Alternatively, you can just tie the halyard to a set tension.

furling line to go from the furler to the main beam (on a jib, it doesn't need the purchase that Doug showed in his drawing. For a screacher, you need the purchase because of the long foot length.

cleat on mainbeam for furler line.

you may also need longer jib sheets since they now need the ability to reach all the way to the forestay for when the sail is furled.

Sounds like a costly production regardless of whether I can get a few parts cheap from a friend or not.

I think I'll hold off on this, for a while anyway. It's not a hugely important upgrade but a convenience thing.

The jib sheet gets hung up on the mast and rigging sometimes when I tack. Kind of annoying and doesn't make for a smooth transition.

I like my friends Hobie 16 for the fact that there are tracks (travelers?) for the jib up at the front cross bar. With the pulleys out front there, the jib sheet rarely binds on anything. Plus, he said it allows for more tweaking of the jib. Locking the pulleys in on a close haul and letting them go all the way out downwind

(please excuse the improper terms, I'm still learning them)

I was looking for that part I bent taking down my mast and noticed that some of the newer Nacra's have a traveler/track up there too. Talked about it with Turbocat and he said that it was something that I could rivet to my existing cross bar (terminology?)

Sounds like a better bang for my buck

Glad to hear you are out sailing and enjoying your cat.

I think the track you saw is for a "self tacking jib". that is an expensive upgrade as well... and personally i would suggest you learn to work with the system you have. the jib is a very important part to cat sailing and the more you learn about jib controll and shape... the better sailer you will be.

You may want to look into JIB BATTEN HINGE from Hobie. I had them on my Hoboe 16 and they worked well. Not sure if it will work for you (and if your battens will fit) but maybe they will...
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/pdfs/08_15-19.pdf (page 4) to help the jib get accross the mast if it is getting hung up....

The Nacra 5.0 doesn't have a fully battened jib, so the Hobie batten hinge things won't do anything for you.

If your main problem is the jib sheets getting caught while tacking (on my boat it was usually under the mast base), there are simpler solutions. On Nacra 5.8s people usually run a small diameter bungee from one bridle tang, around the bottom of the diamond wires to the other bridle tang. That will keep the jib sheet up and clear from things it can hangup on. I think that trick will work with the 5.0, but you might have to get creative.

I recently added a self-tacker to my 5.8. It was simple to do, but cost about $400 in parts, not to mention getting a jib that was cut properly for it.

Hey justin check out this link: http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d312000/e311596.asp
You will see the track and the cleats...12-18 inch track on each side of the crossbar will give you the barberhauler effect and would clean up the tramp nicely. I dont know if you want the swivel or fixed though? I would think swivel.
Im talking about the series 19 c-track stuff thats in the secon picture.

on my 5.2, I used to take a bunji from the outer extreme ends of the front beam (hooked to a small loop of line I tied to the dolphin striker ends) up to the mast through the diamond wires. It would go from beam end, from front to back through one side of the diamond wires, around the back of the mast, through the other diamond wire, then to the end of the dolphin striker end. This formed a triangle and kept the jib sheets from getting near all the hardware at the base of the mast. The bunji had enough "give" to it that it would keep things from getting snagged on it.

Thanks Andrew, it is great to finally be out sailing.

I don't think I described it well enough because I don't think we are talking about the same thing here.

I'm sure it would be much easier if I knew the terms for the parts of my cat.

My Nacra has two very small battens up near the top and are not what catches when it swings over to the other side. The sheet itself catches on the mast. It snags on the turnbuckle for the spreader line.

Turbocat had made a temporary fix by taking bungee cord, tying one end to the front cross beam, routing it up through the top of the turnbuckle, and then back down to the other end of the cross beam. This helps somewhat but not enough that it isn't a problem.

Let me try to explain my friends Hobie a little better. It has 2 tracks on the front cross beam, one on each side. The two pulleys that the jib sheet goes through before going up to the jib are attached to these tracks, one on each side. The pulleys can then be adjusted out out and in the length of the track and then tightened down so that it cannot travel at all.

When we are sailing into the wind he tightens it down close to the mast. When we sail downwind he tightens it down at the outer end of the track.

I'm not sure that this is considered a "self tacking jib" as I don't think it does anything by itself but gives you more options to control the shape.

Here's a picture of an old SolCat put out to pasture that I visited when looking for a boat. It has the same type of thing on the front cross beam.



Hope I did a better job describing it. Sorry again

Whose got a pic of the way they do it on the TheMightyHobie18 to prevent the jib sheets from getting caught on the base? Basically you tie a piece of 1/4" shock cord to each hull under the fwd Xbar. Then tie the center up the mast a few feet. It will only cost you a couple of bucks and it might work for you.

J

I clip a single bungie from a bridal wire to a line i have tied on both diamond wires to prevent my lines from getting fouled.

This works 95% of the time. It is important to make sure you have a line on both diamonds so the bungie can slide as the mast rotates (otherwise it puts some "pull" on 1 side of your diamond wires and not the other.)

I use little plastic clips on all 4 ends (2 on the bungie, 2 on the diamond wires) for easy on and off...

hey Turbo, is that the link we were talking about the other day? That isn't a self tacking jib system is it?

Jake, the bungee thing is what Turbo had set up. Maybe I need to try to get it higher up the mast.

Gotcha. That is the standard travler track for the hobie16 (and many others). Your friend has the right idea, in close when upwind, traveled out for downwind. This is basically the same on the main sail...

That took me years to remember and even more to understand why.

A self tacking jib is a unique and modern curved track that allows the jib to switch sides on its own.... different creature...

I dont know how nacra 5.0's have the jib blocks but to reconfigure them is relatively big undertaking... I don’t know what would happen if you put travler tracks on your beams but I am sure that would change the angle of the jib block / sheet and move the pocket / effect the jib.

I think working out a bungee system is the way to go. Either from the bridal as i show, or from the outer beams - to the mast- to the other beam in a piramid shape (as I did on my hobie 18).

I had a eye strap on each side of my beam and 1 on my mast that I would run a bugie through each time I rigged.

Below is a pic of how I ran it (in red)

DangerMouse:

Put a small eyelet on the fron of your mast about 3 feet up. Run a piece of bungee from the corners of front crossbars thru the eyelet. This V will keep the sheets clear of the mast. Works GREAT.

Doug

Danger already has the bungee set-up. Check out the link I posted for the track and cleats. Tie the bungee up higher and it shouldn't happen anymore. You may need more shock cord too move it up. The track would definately clear up the tramp.

you could put tracks on each side with the block&cleat and do away with your existing block&cleat that's on the tramp. $100-150 and your set-up.

so basically RC81943 for $88, track for $24, and track ends and I'm good to go?

Andrew, you think doing so could have an adverse effect on performance?

I would think the 81942 would be the way to go so it can pivot for better sheeting angle. I have never used these so i dont really know alot about it, but makes sense for them to pivot?

If anyone has any experience with a set up like this maybe they can add some insight.

I really dont know much about the Nacra 5.0 set up... but unless the current jib blocks are on the front beam also i am sure it will effect the shape of the jib. As to how it will effect performance..... unk (but my guess is it will change the shape/effect the pocket/ reduce performance)...

I would try the $3.00 bungie solution first to see if this handles the issue and leave the boat stock for a while.

Do you have a picture of how the jib blocks are on the 5.0?

Tie the shock cord to the top of the turnbucle rather than the bottum and it will go away. If im understanding you right the jib sheet is getting hung up under the turnbuckle and not the mast base. Another thing to do is to put a few wraps of tape around the turnbucle so there is nothing for the sheets to hang on.

hey what an awesome looking boat! Makes me want to go sail one that looks exactly like that.

I am tying it to the top of the turnbuckle. If I said otherwise I was mistaken. Maybe I'll try tying it to the bridal wires next time out.

Doesn't the designer frequent this forum? Or was that the designer of the Supercat...

Wonder what Performance Catamarans would say about putting those tracks in. I think I'll shoot them an email.

Is that a Nacra 5.0?

PS nice looking boat

Don't drill your crossbeam, you're just going to weaken it.

What you want to rig is called a 'barber-hauler.' Hell, you can hang a bunji from your beam or something, shroud, whatever, to the jib clew if you want to keep it really simple. Just something to pull the clew outboard.

If that is a 5.0 there is no way i would move the jib blocks forward. they already look too forward. It is my understanding you basically want the jib sheet to pull equally on top (leach) and bottom (foot) of the jib.

Placing tracks on the front beam would be pulling much more of the back of the sail (Leach)

Yea that's my Nacra.

I'm thinking of naming it "Divorce Imminent" or something. Wife is already complaining that I spend to much time on my new hobbie =/

lol... my gf calls my boat "your mistress". I told her i tried to cuddle with my boat.. it was to hard to get in my bedroom...

When she asked why boats are named after women, i said they demand all your attention, and suck your wallet dry... just like a woman. That didnt sit so well. Lastly... i learned... gf and spinnaker don't get along with eachother... i am not even allowed to mention that word around my gf... lol...

haha nice!

Hard lessons learned the hard way. (banished from the bedroom to a hard couch)

I'm trying to get my wife interested in sailing. She went out on that friends hobie I was talking about one time while I watched our 10 month old from the beach.

It's a bit difficult to both get out on our boat with the little tyke. One of us is always relegated to babysitting duty.

Can't wait till he gets old enough to come out with us. What do you think the magic age would be? (in a nice safe 5-10 of course.)

And how do I adjust the trapeze such to get said 10 month old out on the wire?! On second thought...I'd rather not have to rename the boat "Divorce Finalized"

yeah, don't do the track...just rig up a barber hauler at the outer end of the beams. Basically, run your jib sheets (each side) through a simple ring - plastic is fine. Tie a line to that ring and run it through a block at the end of the respective beam. Arrange a cleat for this barber-hauler line. When sailing upwind, the barber-hauler is loose and lets the jib sheet right to where the blocks are. When sailing off the wind, you cinch the barber-hauler line (takes a split second) and it pulls the sheets to the outer end of the beam and gives better shape to the jib for sailing deep. Most systems run the hauler line and cleat to the opposite side of the boat since that is typically where you will be when setting it.

That really depends on the kid. If the child is a good listener, and doesn’t have "ants in his pants" and can sit still... and YOU are proficient...


I sail with a buddy who's 3 year old is good crew. She loves it. He also has a front tramp and has alot of room where she can sit and not be in the way, nor in harms way (boom, sheets, etc)

I have also sailed with a girl who brought her bratty 13 year old. He refused to listen to what I said, wouldnt move when i needed him to, and was a liability. If the weather turned, it would have been dangerous for him.

I considered raising him up to the top of the mast, but couldn’t figure out how to rig a double halyard <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jake, I think I understand the concept but I don't fully understand how to rig this barber hauler. You don't by any chance have a picture of a barber hauler rigged cat do you?

What is a block again? Is that a pulley that's anchored to the boat?

Andrew, sounds like the brat needed to be sent overboard and dragged behind the boat. I'm not looking forward to when my son thinks he knows more than me. I guess what comes around goes around <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Very simple.... rig as image shows

Pull on the white line to adjust as needed!

Hehe... just kidding....

I have my barber hauler rigged as the image shows… a floating peace on the jib sheets (circled in green) then the line (highlighted in yellow) runs through a very small block (at the far ends) and cleat on the beam.

There are many ways to rig this, and you could probably run through your front beam (and end caps) to avoid drilling and rivets in your beam....

Next time you sail, just ask other boaters if they have one and see how they run it.

If you use the search feature here.. there is alot of data.




Yup - it is also the pulley system that you sheet the mainsail in with, and the pulley you sheet the jib in with....etc

The blue line is pulled on and the jib sheets are moved outward. Uncleat and the jib is back to its normal position. As Jake and Andrew said there are several ways to do this. Here's the set-up on my 5.2

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh that makes perfect sense <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

OK so any "pulley" is called a block?

Thanks for the pictures guys. Having them helps me a lot. I'm more of a visual learner.

I'm trying to think how I would do this without doing any drilling.

I suppose I could tie a line around the front beam between the hull and the tramp. There's just enough space to get a line through there. I could make a loop in the line and then tie it there, and then thread the barber hauler line through the loop and then to the jib sheet. but I'm not sure how I would cleat the hauler line...

Maybe attach another block at the point the jib's are attached?


Hey andrew, I like that netting you've got set up on your tramp btw.

I don't like transporting the Nacra with the rudders attached and when the kiddo is traveling with us I don't have enough room to put them in the Subaru. Maybe I could lay them on the tramp and secure them with some cargo netting....

So many ideas so little time

Hey Turbocat that's a nice dolphin striker rod you got there.

If it comes up missing it wasn't me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You could run the line THROUGH the end caps (with some drilling to the caps)...but i think you will need to drill somewhere for cleats.

I dont know why you were told not to drill the beam.. as you can see.. we all have cleats and blocks and eyestraps on our beams...



Thanks,... the trunk of my car misses it... but it was in the way of my rudders and fit my cat so well!!!



Ohhhh.... secure them well if you try that.. ... you wont believe what rudders, castings, rudder arms, etc. cost to replace (not to mention the damage they would do to a car that hit them if they flew off your cat in transit).

friend of mine has an industrial strength sewing machine for doing car upholstery. I was thinking of making a really strong bag to put the rudders in that would zip up. The bag would attach to the trampoline. I think it would be pretty solid, and would keep the rudder attaching hardware from rubbing a hole in the tramp if they were just bungied down there.

No room in the trunk when the baby and all his "gear" come along for a trip.

Let me ask you this though... It seems to me, the untrained eye, that this barber-hauler setup does pretty much the same thing as putting the tracks up on the front cross beam. Is this not the case?

Your untrained eye is semi-correct ...
The tracks act as a travler to move your jib in and out on the beam... but this only is good if your boat and jib was designed for that.

the barberhauler is an outhaul that pulls your jib out towards the outer limits of the beam/hull. HOWEVER this is desirable (mostly) downwind when you want to make a FULL (round) sail shape on your jib. If you sail by your tell-tales (as you should IMHO) you will see downwind your jib needs to be full and upwind flat... (generally speaking)

If you outhaul (with a barber hauler) when going upwind you will have a miss shaped jib (as mentioned above you will be pulling from to much of the leach and not enough foot of the sail).

I think (IMHO) you should install the bungie (higher than the turnbuckles) for $2, tape up the turnbuckles with electical tape $.50 (or rigging tape) and learn how to work with the jib (i used to have to shake my Hobie16 jib every now and again while sailing).

If you feel like you want more items to adjust and want to tinker with jib shape, then install a barber hauler.

It is not a huge advantage in either handling your jib/hangup problems because it is mainly for downwind sailing... and creates a little more work (and deck clutter) to cleat and uncleat when you tack....

if you do put your rudders in a bag/on your tramp... you may want to wrap them up individually because when your trailer jumps over potholes and other bumps they will bang against eachother they can scrape, scratch, bend, ding and just break off each other. Deep scratches can cause water to get in the rudder, swell, and split the rudders. So just be sure to secure them, and protect them and you should be fine!


OR you could put your baby in the bag on the tramp.. that should give you room in your car for the rudders (kidding)

But most of all. just have fun!

a baby bag....

BRILLIANT!!!

your thoughts intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

LOL, i don't have a sailing newsletter (although i do publish 2 health ones for work) but i do have LOTS of sailing pics you can see at http://www.metalfree.com/a/CAT

fair enough sir, you drive a hard bargain. If in the future a boy scout rings the doorbell selling subscriptions I will laugh in his face, tell him to come back when he's selling subscriptions to the andrewscott newsletter (or cookies), and slam the door in his face, open the door, apologize for slamming the door in his face, quickly close the door before being beaten by his parents, and prepare the house for a night defense against an angry mob of scouts and their weapons of mass egging.

ummmmm.... try the decaf!

advice to add to your newsletter.

So to be honest I'm still not totally clear on the difference between the tracks and the barber hauler. They still seem to be doing the same thing just rigged differently.

I've got a background in aviation so the physics and aerodynamics/ hydrodynamics of it all wouldn't be too far over my head.

Can you guys recommend any books on the subject? Something that talks about the science behind the sails, maybe about this "pocket" a few have mentioned, the relationships between the jib and the main....that kind of stuff.

Rick White's "CAT RACING: FOR THE 90S" is for sale in the Store here (link above)

This book covers all these topics.

Price $29.95

(PS this is Rick's website) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To summarize the difference for the barber hauler and the front beam travler (tracks):
The barber hauler is an OUThaul used for getting a rounder shape in your jib for down wind sailing. It does this by pulling the jib tack (where the sheets attach) out and forward to the beam.

The travler (track) that comes on a (very) few boats does not shape the sail (generally), it simply moves the jib in (closer to the mainsail) for upwind and out for downwind.

Hold your right hand fingers tips in place (with your other hand) and cup your hand and look at the shape.. it is rounder because the middle has moved out and the back of your hand (under your thumb) has moved in. Now keep your finger tips in place and simply slide the back of your hand to the right. It doesnt change the shape of your hand, just the angle.... this is the same as the travler on a beam... doesnt really change the shape, just the angle.



The fromt beam track is for boats with jibs designed (shorter foot) to be set (secured) at the beam... most cats have a jib cut that requires it to be further back on the boat to have the correct/desired shapes.

The Art and Science of Sails by Tom Whidden has more than you want to know.

This website has the basic trimming guide.

http://www.ukhalsey.com/LearningCenter/encyclopedia/encyclopedia5b.asp

Everybody has been telling you the right things, but in pieces.

Put two sets of telltales on your jib, one set high, one set low about 1/3 and 2/3s up. If your fore and aft position of the jib block is correct for upwind sailing, both sets of telltales will luff at the same time. Move the jib block forward a little and the sheet will pull more down than aft than before and tension the leech a little more than the foot. This will pull in the top of the sail more than the bottom and the top leeward telltale will show that the top of the sail is stalled (sheeted in too tight) relative to the bottom of the sail. On your boat moving the jib block all the way forward to the front crossbeam will be much worse. A boat with the jib block on the front crossbeam has a sail sized and cut such that the angle of the jib sheet is proper to that point. Yours is not.

Now turn a little downwind from the close hauled course we've been sailing and sheet out the jib a little. As soon as you sheet out a little, since there is more tension in the leech than the foot, the clew will rise and the top of the sail will be luffing relative to the bottom, so you will need to move the jib block forward if you want to keep perfect trim. As you sail a lower course the block will have to move forward and outboard to keep the entire sail from top to bottom trimmed correctly at the same time. For your best point of sail to go downwind, approximately a beam reach apparent wind, the sheet point is around the outer end of the crossbeam. So a barberhaul to effectively move your sheet point there is for sailing downwind.

John