Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions"

Posted By: Anonymous

Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 01:10 PM

Hi, I'm a newbie to this forum, bought a 18ft Mystere, had it out at least 10 times, flipped once, with 2 (200lb) guys had exterme difficulty righting, anyone can help, can't find any info?? We have a divise at the top of the mast to stop the turtle. unclip the sails, and use our weight but still no luck, now we practice in 4 ft of water??any ideas would help please, thanks Paul

Posted By: windswept

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 01:54 PM

For one, look at Rick's Righting System to be found here on his online store.

Posted By: JeffS

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 02:04 PM

G'day CATastrophe if you do a search of this forum on righting you'll get heaps of info. The online store here sells righting poles and bags both will definately work and will show in the search. You've got your bows pointing into the wind, all sheets uncleated, Your standing on the tip of your centreboard and leaning back with your righting line loop around your trap hook. With two 200lb people it should pop up.
regards

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 02:23 PM

Thanks guys for your FAST response I'll check it out!

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 07:18 PM

You did release both the mainsheet and jib sheet, right? With 400 lbs. you two should be able to right just about anything, if you are doing it correctly. Make sure the mast tip is upwind, not downwind. About 45 degrees off dead straight upwind, so the wind can get under the mast and help lift it. How do you do this? Simple, you sit on the low bow and wait for the wind to blow the boat around so the mast is upwind, not downwind. And be ready to jump onto the low hull (to hold it down) as the mast comes up and over, as it may just blow right over again.

I think if you search You Tube, you might see a video of someone doing it correctly.

Posted By: PTP

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 07:52 PM

alright... quick question:
How many of you stand on the tips of your daggerboards to right the boat? At 350-400$ a pop, I am too nervous to do it. I stand on the hull, which most of time works solo.

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 08:00 PM

I would never stand on the tip but about half way out and as it comes up I move my feet in onto the hull.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 08:35 PM

Quote

alright... quick question:
How many of you stand on the tips of your daggerboards to right the boat? At 350-400$ a pop, I am too nervous to do it. I stand on the hull, which most of time works solo.

[raises hand timidly]

Posted By: PTP

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 08:51 PM

crazy! but I think you could probably fix one if you broke it! I wonder what are the loads on the boards during sailing...

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 09:37 PM

Well it depends on the board too, on an old Hobie 18 with short, fat boards, I would not hesitate to stand on the board even at the far end. On the Inter 20, maybe not all the way at the end but on any light, foam cored, carbon covered board (A cat, Blade) no way.

Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 10:16 PM

I thought that basic instructions may be helpful:

[Linked Image]

Quote

RIGHTING YOUR HOBIE On that reach ...flying through the air and water then... WHAM!!! Your Hobie Cat has forced you to swim instead of sail. Not really what you had in mind... if you have planned ahead you will be up and sailing again quickly. Whether sailing single handed or with a few friends, righting your boat can be quick and easy...
First, preventing your mast from becoming one with the bottom, or turtling is a priority. We at Hobie have designed two mast floats to keep your Hobie Cat from becoming a mudhen . The floats attach to the top of your mast and will prevent
the mast tip from sinking. The next objective will be to get back to sailing! Righting systems vary a bit but the theory is the same. A line is attached to your Hobie, thrown over the hull in the air and then weight (yours and or your friends) is used to lever the boat back to an upright and sailable position. After you have checked that everyone is OK, turn your hulls and mast into the wind (see diagram) and uncleat your sails. You and your friends now need to congregate on the hull that is in the water. Grab the righting line, lean away from the trampoline and get as close to
the water as you can. Try to stay out of the water. If you don t have enough body weight to right the cat we have the Righting Bucket! Just attach it to the boat, with the hook that is provided, throw over the upper hull and fill the bucket with water! With the bucket strap over your shoulder, lean your weight out from the
boat. The bag comes clear of the water and up the cat will come!! Grab the dolphin striker or crossbar as it comes up, climb aboard, sheet in and GO!
Tipping your Hobie over can be a great way to cool off and enjoy the water... try it! It's
excellent practice for when you weren't planning to go for a swim but your Hobie
decided that you needed to cool off!

Posted By: arbo06

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 11:16 PM

WHAT ABOUT POWER RIGHTING?
SHEET IN THE MAIN AND STAND ON THE TRAVELER (SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS)as the boat comes up you scoot around the rear beam and sheet out.... Bill Roberts can elaborate on the correct tecnique.

Posted By: PTP

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 11:21 PM

trav all the way down I take it?

Posted By: JeffS

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/27/08 11:34 PM

Quote

alright... quick question:
How many of you stand on the tips of your daggerboards to right the boat? At 350-400$ a pop, I am too nervous to do it. I stand on the hull, which most of time works solo.

I was worried at first PTP but couldn't right my Stingray which was 18ft 170kg all up. As you go further out on the board you'll soon see whether it flexes too much, if at all and you get an enormous amount extra leverege between standing on the hull and pulling nearly straight down as opposed to leaning out from the end of the board and pulling sideways. Even when I put the righting pole on the stingray for solo righting, I had to go off the end of the board for the leverege.
CATastrophy even though you have the anti turtle is your mast top still sealed and the anti turtle devise, if thats foam is it dry and light not water logged as that bit of weight can add a lot of leverege against you 30ft out.
regards

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 02:14 AM

The top of my mast is not sealed on a Mystere cat, so you're right the problem is that extra 30-50lbs of water in the end of the mast is causing major problems.I have what appears to be a bouy type from a boat customized at the top, holding it's own and not leaking. so i think with a little more experience, that means more time in the drink, i may get a handle. Our lake is 5x7 miles and typically someone is out to help, but i don't wan't to rely on them.
You can see this, attached picture!
thanks Paul

Attached picture 153164-DSC_0296.JPG

Posted By: JeffS

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 03:09 AM

Definately seal the top that will give you more bouyancy than the float. Thats a good looking boat with the big arrow shapes in the sails, it looks like there wasn't much wind when the photo was taken, was that when you had the trouble as more wind lifts the sails when they clear the water and help you right the cat.
regards

Posted By: Dazz

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 05:43 AM

Quote

I was worried at first PTP but couldn't right my Stingray which was 18ft 170kg all up.

Was your stinger made out of concrete??? Mine was 140kg! (min weight) ahh so many fond memories of a great boat.

Posted By: JeffS

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 06:09 AM

Not quite concrete when I got her she was in a bad way, side of one hull had folded and the decks had let go. The foam had absorbed water that they never let out again. I put a series of bulkheads through with foam under the decks plus the cloth and resin. I probably added 10kg but she was always heavy which didnt worry me as I sailed her with my 10yo daughter and the extra weight settled the big rig down. That weight included everything I used on the water sails, mast etc.
regards

Posted By: pepin

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 09:18 AM

Quote

Please elaborate, the only power righting technique I know about is the one explained in Rick's book, and it says nothing about sheeting in! Inquiring minds would like to know...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 11:13 AM

We typically have this weird wind close to shore, gusts, then it changes fast, yes it happened close to shore that day we flipped, the wind was poor in that picture but we are still learning. Don't think i trust myself in gail winds, yet. I have more hollidays coming this weekend, I'll flip her over in shallows and have a good look at the end the mast, not sure what if anything i can do, but it's worth another look. thanks Jeffs

Paul

Posted By: JeffS

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 12:42 PM

I wasn't saying going out in big winds Paul, I'm only just comming to terms with that myself with the 5.8. It sounds like you have it stored mast up. As a temporary solution you could take some foam only a couple of inches thick and push it in the top of the mast so it cuts to shape then sikiflex it in place covering the top of the foam, it would be ready in about an hour, if you do it as soon as you get there by the time you leave the beach you'll be right. Thats far from ideal but will give you time to right the boat, there are a lot of threads on this forum if you search mast sealing. There must be someone else with the same boat reading this thread come on guys what about some more ideas.
regards

Posted By: tami

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 01:59 PM

think about it for a moment....

Without hesitation, I'd stand on the board.

Consider the forces that normal sailing puts on the boards, LATERALLY for the most part, what, thousands of pounds? And you're worried about YOUR weight? I wouldn't use 'em for a springboard, but yeah, I'd stand on the board to right the boat...

Better to stand on the board which is reinforced for big loads than the hull which is only reinforced to resist being pushed thru the water.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 02:13 PM

My Mystere 5.5 has centerboards that rotate on a big nylon pivot. 1 time it jammed and put a hole in the center board trunk.... that hull was under water in 5 minutes. i would NEVER stand on my centerboard.

I used a big righting bag and had no trouble righting my boat solo in about 3 minutes.

Posted By: tami

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 03:48 PM

You're lucky I'm in a benificent mood today

Here, read this
http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/Boat/Boardstrength.pdf

And note the quote:
"Note The load at the lower end of the dagger board case is equivalent to having the hull laying down on its side and putting a 944 kg weight at that case exit. Make sure the boat is stronger than the boards!"

Now maybe you weight 944kg?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 03:59 PM

Well this clears it all up!

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 04:14 PM

A little story about boards -

A few years back I bought new boards for my 5.8. It turned out they were from a bad production batch with the incorrect layup. The factory tried to recall them, but somehow these made it out to me.

My crew and I stood on them several times while righting the boat, no problem. But one day they snapped while making a quick manuver while sailing fast downwind.

So, that's annecdotal evidence that the loads on boards while sailing are far greater than two people standing on them while righting.

Posted By: PTP

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 05:08 PM

those calc are for trimarans?
I have a hard time thinking that the load on a 16ft cat's boards are to 2000lbs. I can see some loads like that on a tri, but no way on the boards of my cat.

on the other hand--- good point for the reasoning not to stand on the hulls.

Posted By: tami

Physics class? Bueller? - 07/28/08 05:51 PM

those calcs are for whatever you want to put in, but yes, your cat will see thousands of lb load on the boards, every bit of it! What sort of breaking strength do you have for your mainsheet blocks? Is it in the hundreds or the thousands?

Here's a simple diagram of the forces involved on your main (and I don't want to get into the Bernoulli argument, thank you very much, it's obvious that some of us aren't nearly at that level of understanding....):

[Linked Image]

Now's a simple diagram of the forces on your board:

[Linked Image]

What do you think? It's really all about Fnet=ma (Thank you Mr Tilley for teaching me that.)

Look, here's a simplified explanation website:
http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/sailing.html

Here's a bit about how blocks work:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/blocks.html

And a bit of light reading:
http://www.sailboat-technology.com/links/online_articles.php

Posted By: PTP

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 06:13 PM

Quote

Well this clears it all up!

[Linked Image]

you couldn't figure that out? jeeeze.. whats wrong with you? I bet you don't know about the Bernoulli effect either.... apparently it is a really complex concept that only a few on here can figure out.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Posted By: tami

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 06:56 PM

Y'know,

I'm kinda tired of all this misogyny. The chauvinism expressed at this site is phenomenal.

I post something, however correct it might be, and one of you "boys" have got to argue it, every damn time. Yet when a dude posts something, however incorrect it might be, nobody challenges the assertion.

The remark was meant to forestall any hijacking of the thread from one about calculating force on boards to one about Bernoulli v. Newton v.etc. which has been hashed out interminably. Since I'm female you don't ever want to believe what I have to say, I guess that has to be what the deal is, so do a search.

I back up what I say with data and equations, since it's the way I was taught to do. If you don't understand something, don't be snide, just go learn about it, which is what my references are meant to offer.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 07:34 PM

It doesnt matter if your a male or female...

Pull out the calculus formulas and you might get poked fun at, regardless of your sex (just ask Wouter)....

Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 08:04 PM

Misogyny
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up misogyny in
Wiktionary, the free dictionary.Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒʤɪni/) is hatred (or contempt)[1] of women.[2][3] Misogyny is parallel to misandry — the hatred of men. Misogyny is also comparable with misanthropy,[4] which is the hatred of humanity generally. The antonym of misogyny is philogyny, love towards women. Those holding misogynic beliefs can be of either sex.[citation needed] Marcus Tullius Cicero reports that Greek philosophers considered misogyny to be caused by gynophobia, a fear of women.[5] In the late 20th century, feminist theorists proposed misogyny as both a cause and result of patriarchal social structures.

Wow, I thought it was a joke, not to poke fun at you Tami, but just how smart some people are, and how dumb the rest of us are. : )

Posted By: JeffS

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/28/08 11:23 PM

Quote

Come on relax Tammi this site doesn't have a go at females I don't understand calculus either and would have made the same joke. Thanks for posting to the thread, I know your right because if you go out in 20kts on the wire keep the boat flat and pull your centre boards up the sail pushes the boat more sideways than forward.
regards

Posted By: windswept

Re: Physics class? Bueller? - 07/28/08 11:40 PM

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http://www.sailboat-technology.com/links/online_articles.php[/url]

tami,

It is the light reading list that I truly like. Especially "505 fins-the definative works". Some of these articles are quite good and informative. thanks for the links.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/29/08 02:37 AM

Quote

Misogyny
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i had to look it up also to see if there were other meanings.... as i couldn't see any sexist response at all....

Try the decalf

Posted By: David Parker

Re: Newbie catamaran owner "righting instuctions" - 07/29/08 03:12 AM

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Try the decalf

Try it without a baby cow? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />