Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics

I have my own thoughts on this subject and have stated those views to the ITA. What are your thoughts.

Looks like measures have outlawed the pelican striker on the spinnaker poles Booth and Lovell developed for the code zero.

http://sailjuiceblog.com/2008/08/08/you-ca...olphin-striker/



[quote name='Tornado_ALIVE' date='Aug 10 2008, 12:09 PM' post='1826774']
Though looking at the class rules, I can not see how the pelican striker breaches the class rules.

Rule F.5
Page 22

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/200...Rules%20190208-[5103].pdf
[/quote]

I still can't see it.

F.5 BOWSPRIT
F.5.1 MATERIALS
(a) Bowsprit materials are optional.
(b ) Bowsprit spar stay materials are optional.
(c ) Bowsprit-to-forestay extension strut materials are optional.
(d) Gennaker retrieval system materials are optional.
F.5.2 CONSTRUCTION
(a) The forward end of the bowsprit spar shall be plugged or capped, and
blunt.
F.5.3 FITTINGS
(a) MANDATORY
1) Gennaker tack block
2) Stays from the bowsprit spar gennaker tack block position and the
bowsprit mid section to the hulls
3) Attachment point fittings for the jib tack and/or jib luff tension
(b ) OPTIONAL
1) Attachment point fittings for the bowsprit-to-forestay extension strut
and jib sheet.
2) A gennaker retrieval system may be attached to the bowsprit or be
integral to the construction of the bowsprit. It shall be suitable solely for
the purpose containing the gennaker and shall not violate rule D.6.2.d.
F.5.4 DIMENSIONS
minimum maximum
Bowsprit spar diameter 38 mm -
Distance of bearing surface of the gennaker
tack lead from the forward edge of the main
beam, measured with the gennaker halyard
pulled tight and the bowsprit fitted to the boat
in its normal sailing position
4000 mm
F.5.5 WEIGHT
minimum maximum
Bowsprit spar, gennaker retrieval system,
fasteners, tack block, halyard/tack line block,
internal tack line and brace stays
2.2 kg -


Though click on Tornado at the official notices link - http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/officialnotices.php and the measuring comittee has sail NO to pelican striker

Tornado measurment

THURSDAY 7th AUGUST - FRA
SATURDAY 9th AUGUST - AUT, CHN, GRE
SUNDAY 10th AUGUST - ITA, UKR, NED
MONDAY 11th AUGUST - GBR, ESP, GER
TUESDAY 12th AUGUST - USA, BEL, ARG
WEDNESDAY 13th AUGUST - AUS, CAN

Looks like Bundy and Ashby will be able to decide on weather or not to use the code zero after watching everybody else make the call.

Tornado footage in Athens (When there was wind)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5JkAe-ZkI

Just noticed (Been a little slack) that New Zealand decided not to send a Tornado team despite Aaron McIntosh and Mark Kennedy quailfing NZ in Feb. Only 15 boats at the regatta.

That's poor form form NZ.

Stephen,

I think the measurers are leaning on "what is not expressively allowed is forbidden" clause. A bit silly in this instance in my opinion.

We discussed this striker earlier, before we knew about the sail to go with it. Did not make sense to me then, but now it does.

Yes, makes you wonder if it would have been banned if they were using conventional spinnakers.

I dont think so.

Booth has measured in with his code zero.

http://sailjuice.squarespace.com/

Booth has measured his, Bundock and Ashby have chosen not to measure theirs, we will see what Lovell and Ogletree decide to do. I am having difficulty understanding the pelican striker as an issue.

My guess is that they have binned the pole as the measurer is saying that the pelican striker is part of the pole and so makes the dia > 38mm?

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?...amp;tickerCID=0

I think that the reason behind that was the number of atheletes NZ could send and they ended up being cut from the team for that reason. I may be wrong but that is my interpretation. I friend of mine from canada had a similar incident during one of the previous Olympics in which he made the Olympics only to have the canadian body cut his event from participation. Could you imagine making it that far only to be left home. Much like all of the Olympians from 1980 when carter boycotted the Moscow games. I have a few friends who were on either the Sailing team or the Gymnastics team who are still upset over that one.

Imagine the publicity if it turned out all NZ sailors are not old and fat like their commitee and the NZ Tornado team won a medal. I even want the US Tornado team to come second to rub US Sailings nose in it. Perhaps we need the French Rainbow Warrior team to sink some keelboats for us <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Aaron and Mark never made the team (they weren't cut). The NZ olympic committee has very strict qualification procedures requiring consistent performance at the top level before you get selected (even if you do qualify). Basically you need to be a member of the "team" to be able to afford to compete at all the required international events, but without attending and doing well at these events you can't get into the team. If you don't have money left in your account from an AC campaign or well funded parents, its almost impossible to break in.

Then why did another nation not be given the oportunity to fill the slot NZ decided not to fill.

I am sure the other nations that were on the fringe of qualifying are real pissed off.

The sailors who would have got the tickets surely are dissapointed, but I dont know if their national association would be dissapointed? Spending more money for a very slim chance of medaling? I dont subscribe to that line of tought, that is not what the olympics are supposed to be about.
How the russian and georgian teams, or the other european teams for that sake, can participate in the olympic games when we have war between two european states dont fit well with what I understand the olympic games to be about either.

Agree there. Forgot what nation it was, but they gave up their Finn spot to India. India hadn't qualified, but now have the opportunity to be at the games and promote sailing the in the country with the 2nd biggest population.

Top 4 teams that were still to qualify at the NZ Worlds were to take up the remaining 4 slots.

The top 4 teams in order were....
Canada, Austria, New Zealand and the Ukraine

The next 4 teams that were seeking to qualify in order of how they finished at the Worlds......

Russia, Puerto Rico, Brazil, Poland and Venezuela

I believe Booth was seeking a wildcard entry for Puerto Rico, one of the teams (along with the US) that were involved in their code zero training camps. They were denied.

I believe that the Georgian government was looking to have their team come home from the games. I think that would be another tragedy for the athletes from georgia.

I think the worst part is that there are some residents of the state of Georgia (USA) who are currently sitting in their bomb shelters wondering why the "Rooskies" decided to attack them and not California....

Come on, even the dumbest redneck knows that although both Georgia and California used to be Soviet Republics, Georgia has since become a pro-western democracy. That's why the Russians are invading Georgia, not California.

That is not all of it Tom. It is a tragedy for all who live there, all the soldiers and all the families touched by this. The olympics is about peaceful competition, both in history and symbolism. No nation at war should be allowed to participate in a celebration of peace in my opinion. None!
Unfortunately the modern games is about the IOC and money instead so it will not happen.

(I see the further tragedy for the athletes from the countries of Georgia, Russia and soon maybe Ukraine also of course. They already have increased pressure on them, and angst. Latest I heard was the georgians wanting to go home, but the IOC convinced them to stay)

If that were truly the case (no country at war could/should compete) then the competition would be greatly limited. The U.S. would be out and any other country that had any type of military presence in a location with some conflict could be construed as at "war". What about countries battling terroism they would be considered at "war" within its own borders.

Not to open any controversy or hijack the thread (please don't go off on this tangent), conflicts of all kinds are always going on how do we distinguish who to leave out and who stays?

I'm sure if you checked with the average "Joes" in any country they wouldn't be fighting at all. The old saying (at least here) of "get rid of all the politicians and the world would be a better place"... well we'd just get new politicians. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Heck, I'm rambling... probably have no clue as to what I'm trying to say. Lets all go sailing.

Clayton

Perhaps denying participation at the olympic games to countries at war would make politicians think twice and help form public opinion. Would that be so bad? I take it you would not like it if the USA was refused entry and perhaps ask why? Perhaps you would even raise a stink about it when your athletes had their dreams broken? I know I would if Norway was refused entry.
Looking into the history of the games, this was one of the ideas behind at least the modern games.

We can discuss the foreign and domestic policy of the USA, but that was not the point. I mentioned Russia and Georgia as they are both part of Europe.

Certainly potential for another thread here.

Rolf,

You seem to be making the argument that the war in Georgia is less important than the Olympics.

1980 and 1984 show that nations (including Norway) are quite willing to boycott the Olympics to make a political point. To think that they'd put participation in the Olympics over national security concerns is hard to reconcile with that.

I am sorry, but I dont see how what I have said can be read like that? I am saying that my opinion is that nations at war should not be allowed to participate in the olympic games. That dont mean that the games are more important than the tragedy of war.
I dont say Norway is any better than others, we are not. We are even worse than many others in certain areas.

Rolf,

I'm sure you didn't mean to give off that impression.

But bemoaning the damage done by this war to the sanctity of the Olympics, and hoping that the threat of being kicked out of the Olympics would deter future wars, seems to trivalize war and aggrandize the Olympics.

Sorry for the threadjack.

It is one more reason to not go to war certainly, but my focus is the olympics not the national decision makers, if that makes sense.

Wasn't USSR at war with Afghanistan for over 10 years? It would have been nice if they were banned from Olympics, but I guess the USA was supporting the rebels, so would that have tossed US out during that period as well?

I guess this could spiral until only the Swiss would be allowed to compete....

Will Russia attack Georgia on the ground? I'm sure they've already decided what to do, but I think that will send a significant statement to the other satellite regions. USA will be pressured to stay out using Iran - if US hints at further involvement in Georgia, the AK-47s and Pantsyr-S1s start magically appearing in Iran by the truckload

Please if you guys want to discuss wars please start a new thread ok?
The whole countries-at-war-are-not-welcome idea sounds great but somewhat naive (while we are at it can we also ban countries who approve of whaling, ).
Anyway, I do think it is very unfortunate that the Kiwi team isn't going though, I had a chat with them somewhere in May and they where very keen on going.

Back on-topic:
Just read a Dutch press release on the new sail and have done a rough translation, seems like it is still making waves <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />:

On Monday, August-11 the revolutionary Tornado-sailing of Mitch Booth and Pim Nieuwenhuis (NED) was finally approved for the Olympic Games.
That means that the Dutch upwind gennaker may be used during the Olympic regatta in Qingdao.
In doing so, Booth and Nieuwenhuis have an advantage up to 11 knots of wind, especially upwind.

"It can go on", said Pim Nieuwenhuis after returning from a training session with the US team.
We have the stamps, so the gennaker is now officially approved by the officials.
Booth adds: I now bike from the boat park, where the Argentinians are also working with such a sail.
Espinola and Lange won bronze in Athens and are formidable opponents.
They work with North Sails, which has also designed the sail for the Italians and British teams.
The Italians are already measured, but the Argentinians have not.
Who knows, maybe there will be more upwind gennakers. These are interesting Games.
Booth is not afraid of this latest development: They are very late, so I wish them a lot of luck.
Diana Bogaards | 11-08-08

You are right as of today.

However, as automation increases and our species works less, sports and other leisure activities are gaining real importance.

Being kicked out from the Olympics is not that important yet, but being kicked out from the soccer world's could trigger revolutions or make a difference during elections in many countries, including some rather important ones. Also, some governments (usually those in need of political support) offer money prizes for each olympic medal won, so politicians believe the games are not irrelevant.

If you think about it, sports come from being completely irrelevant 150 years ago, so the trend is clearly towards the scenario Rolf depicted.

I know that the sail has been approved for use, but I still am not sure that they chose to measure it in as the sail they will use. I think they have, but others have not yet. The USA team does not measure in until the 12th so we will see what they do. Darren & Glenn built one but chose not to use it.

Darren and Glenn measure in on the 13th and will make the decision then. Word is they first began work on a code zero for the games 18 months ago...... So I am sure they are also very prepared. They have also built a heaver duty spinnaker pole for use with the code zero, then protested out the us of the pelican stricker on the poles of NED and USA.

Talking about it doesn't mean they worked on it...

I talked about doing the Vendee Globe once but I sure as hell didn't o anything about it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mitch has caught the fleet out here in a big way, good on him for thinking outside the box.

Re-read the press release.

They discussed it with Fletch 18 months ago.....and Ashby soon built one. Dose "soon built one" refer to 18 months ago or soon built one when Booth pulled everybodies pants down.



http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?...amp;tickerCID=0

Anybody know what sail the US measured in today....... Code Zero????

Square top main and self-tacking jib guaranteed, but no news that I can find on the spin/C0 choice. Don't hype the hype machine going like van Booth

I got this from Sailing World . com this morning.

I read someplace yesterday that AUS ran their own code zero in a prelim race in 3-4 knots...trounced the fleet easily. So the principle is sound....will come down to wind ranges.

Also read that USA will be sailing the exact same boat from the '04 games "SilverBullet". Charlie is quoted as saying these boats stay stiff forever, only needing an occsional beam-reseating to bring back the factory freshness. Hagara is planning to run his same boat from the '00 games. That's just amazing!

Yes, it's utter bollocks that the T is an expensive boat to sail!!!

We know it is bullocks, but it doesnt help as long as it fits with the decision makers feelings and agendas. Ref: =160&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12&....de/news0.html?&am...Hash=d87a4d7ae8

It's been a little while since I reviewed the rules, but that code 0 could also trickle it's way to F18 as I don't believe the rules stipulate anything about spinnakers other than the area measurement.

It is an intriguing question.

I could have used the code zero during a recent distance race (Milt Ingraham 'round Anacapa Island). Winds were less than 3-5 kts for the first 4 hours, upwind leg. Got thrashed pretty soundly by one of the two I20's by the upwind mark. We were more than 1.5 miles back when we put up our chute. Wind came up just a little and amazingly we were able to reel in the leader and passed him with less than a mile to go.

Not sure the code zero would have been able to catch up like that...but if we'd had it on the upwind leg, we might not have needed to.

From F18 Class rules

C.4.4. SPINNAKER
4.4.1 Definition of a spinnaker
All triangular sails not complying with the definition of a mainsail or a jib are spinnakers, on
condition that the girth at mid-height is equal or greater than 75% of that of the foot.

The Tornado class has a max girth requirement but no min girth. I think this girth requirement means any F18 gennaker will not look quite like the Tornado ones (which look like they have a shorter girth). An F18 class legal gennaker will probably be less efficient than the Tornado designs when the sail is sheeted hard up wind (the larger shoulder will be unstable).

Chris.

I feel i have hit my "MAX GIRTH" limit... i think its time for slim fast!

Actually the Tornado class is the odd one out when it comes down to regulating spinnakers.

All other formula classes (F20, F18, F16) have ruled out "code-zero's" (or rather; very large jibs) from their inception. The Tornado class never did. Now they are paying the price.

Wouter

I have designed, built, or sailed with several versions of what could be referred to as a “Code 0”, “Asymmetric 0” or “Masthead Genoa” since 1992 and I have done this within both Symmetrical and Asymmetrical measurement rules.

For asymmetric, when constricted with a 75% girth restriction, the sails are effective but not very much fun. Generally you need to run a upwind sufficient cloth for the body of the sail but a lighter false leach (attached to your designed shape leach) which will allow the sail to measure but then generally flaps when sheeted hard for tight reaching or even upwind.

This is fine on bigger boats like a TP52 but it is not so flash (or legal) in one designs where there are generally spinnaker cloth restrictions (I have not looked but I am sure laminates and heavy nylon are not legal in the F18 guidelines).

The best example of this is to find a photo of the W60 Tokio from the 1993 Whitbread before Code 0s were legal.

All-up, I think this would be aweful on a F18...

Re code zero



http://sailjuice.squarespace.com/home/?currentPage=2

There is a company doing code zero for f18, not sure if it's class legal for not.

<<http://www.fwd-sailing.com/Reacher%20FWD%20Sailing/Reacher%20FWD%20Sailing.html>>

May ask them to do one for my F16.

Would make the low wind sailing more fun <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />, not sure if I would use it for racing though.

John,

from the pictures that sail dont look like it would measure in under F16 rules, not enough shoulder. If you carried it to open regattas, you would have to compete on handicap I think. Perhaps not a big problem in Switzerland (yet, but one day <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

I would like to have such a sail myself, but it would spoil me if a class regatta was held in low winds <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And have to acquire your own seperate handicap rating with a payed for measurement certificate. You can't you the standard (F16/F18) class handicap number as your boat won't measure in as one. I can already tell you that your handicap number will take an ENORMOUS hit as all the spinnaker area will now be regarded as jib area. For example on the F16 :

Standard sloop F16 Texel = 102, SCHRS = 1.01
Code-0 sloop F16 Texel = 88. SCHRS = 0.831

I don't believe those rating numbers are doable with a Code-0, you have to be 7 to 9 minutes faster around the course per 1 hour race and you are not going to point as high as a normal sloop. Note, that you have to carry this sail in all conditions and so will get the hit even in winds above 8 knots where you really can't carry a headsail this large.

I think we must regarded the code-0 as it was always intended, a specialized light winds headsail that can be sailed above a beam reach. I'm sure Booth is going to drop this sail for the next event that is expected to be above 8 knots of wind. His boat/rig for this Olympics is the sail suit version of a "single-gear race car". It only works on the specific track it was intended for. This is fine for large mono's as they are allowed to change sails while racing, but now of the cat classes allow this and so the overall benefit will be dicey.

Wouter

So Bundy and Ashby measured in today. Did they measure in the Code Zero????

The Tornado rule is extremely strict (in many areas tolerances are a few millimeters or grams).
Therefore I think that the Tornado class deliberately omitted to include the mid girth rule after the revision followed to the 2000 Olympic Games.
Don't forget that Mitch Booth is the father of the "TORNADO SPORT".
From a performance point of view I consider the mid girth rule SILLY.
Most likely it was introduced by the founders of the F18 class.
For sure the first F20 rule (the one agreed in 1989 by Lallo Petrucci for BIMARE, Enrico Contreas for MATTIA & CECCO e Christian Favre for VENTILO) did not include this rule.
I remember that many sail-lofts such as Oxosails developed very nice code Os in a very light mylar cloth available at the time.
Since all we catsailors love to go faster and faster, I would let all the catamaran classes to test these new code Os.
If they prove to be faster than the existing asymmetrics then we should adopt them.
So all my praise to Mitch, Charlie, Jay and Pablo who dare to introduce this new weapon!
I am firmly determined to contact Ullman Sails immediately after the end of the Olympics to have one Code 0 made for my boat

The T rules start off with.



Should the code zero be outlawed under this rule

Also, is it a flat cut spinnaker or a second head sail???

http://www.sailingworld.com/olympic-racing...1000063744.html

That link also says Gashby and Bundy went with normal kites.

I did some maths over at SA which I can't be bothered re-doing that suggests that if 2 of the 6 days aren't suited to the C0 then you'd be better off not using it.

That is not true. This mid girth rule was already present in the measurement based rating systems like Texel and SCHRS (and FFV predessor) when the F18 class was founded. Basically, it is there to distinguish between a (normal) jib and an asymmetric spinnaker. Without this rule there is no fundamental difference between the two. Of course a measurement based rating system has to distinguish between the two to arrive at acceptably accurate rating numbers.

But even under this condition, no rating systems bans code-0's explicetly. They only state that when a headsail has a mid girth of less then 75% that then the headsail area is to be included in the total upwind sailarea (as as such is effectively regarded as a normal jib). Obviously this is the correct way of looking at the situation as the code-0's can indeed be carried upwind.

The trick where everything falls down is that the code-0 is in basis a very limited upwind sail. It is mainly a reacher and can go somewhat upwind in rather light winds. Allow such a sail in your class will simply kill it off in direct handicapped comparisons to other boats. This is a promotional nightmare for a fledgeling catamaran class as we all do so much handicapped racing in the first few years. I know this was the consideration in the F16 class to copy the 75% rule in its ruleset, I dare say it is exactly the same for the F18 and F20 classes. The latter does not refer to the "original" F20 class (Bim, Ventilo, Mattia) apparently.



Personally, I would love to see any crew bring a code-0 (hooter, screacher) to an F16 regatta on a experimental waver and show its potential over a range of conditions. In my time as a chairman there was an outstanding invitation to any crew to do so. Nobody took us up on this offer and I think the invitation has effectively been withdraw by the new F16 leadership. I still think this sail is much less then a "new wapon"; even Booth didn't dare "bring it on" in Athenes 2004 because even he says it is a risky option when the conditions can not accurately be predicted to be light in advance.

And what is the point of a faster sail in really light winds when you'll get trashed in anything above 8 knots by normal gear ? I'm not at all convinced it is a "faster" sail altogether, especially not when 2-up crews are already double trapping in 10 knots of wind and have to shed power. So I'm hoping that this olympiad has a few normal wind days as well. Then we can see what a code-0, hooter, screacher really does.

Wouter

I agree. Rude behavior all round.

Does the Code-0 calculation include setting the (downwind) spi area to 0? This would suggest an enourmous speed potential in the "useable" wind ranges.

Anyhow, going back to the subject of this post, although the T class rules perfectly permit using a code 0, it clearly is against the principle of equality inherent to olympics. A nice read goes here: http://www.olympic.org/common/asp/download_report.asp?file=en_report_700.pdf&id=700
I wonder if using such a sail (if a code 0 equipped boat say gets a medal) would not produce a very negative reaction from the IOC towards the Tornado, multihulls and even sailing in general? We will be giving the perfect argument to the people against sailing in the olympics. Shure you may say the equipment we propose is strictly one design, but how strict can a set of class rules be?

Yes and no.

These rating systems were developped to accurately rate optimized sloop rigs, this assumes an optimal interaction between jib and mainsail. However you can't maintain the latter when adding a code-0. Sure the performance will increase some by adding the code-0 but it is really doubtful whether it will be by the amount these rating system predict.

Compare it to this. I can also add a 40 sq. mtr. spinnaker to a Tornado (old worrell 1000 style) and the rating systems will duly predict a proportional performance increase. However, we have all learned since then that a 25 sq. mtr spinnaker is faster then this monster spi even though it is significantly smaller. The same can be said for replacing the current jibs by a monster jib called a code-0.

Wouter

What you have is two different configurations both of which satisfy the rule. Who's to say that one is more legitimate than the other. How is one clearly against the principal of equality while the other is not. I'm not even sure it's a problem. Sailors pick their weapon and live with it. If conditions change the advantage shifts. It’s an added dimension (not that our sport is short on dimensions) and has made me more, not less interested.

I know this is probably a stupid question: What does that term "Code 0" mean and where did it come from?

Mary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinnaker

Dan, the point is not that one configuration is more equal than other, but that the two very different configurations (essentialy two different rigs!) in the same fleet provide a big disequality in equipment. This certainly is not the initial idea about fleet racing in the olympics. Will the IOC like that "added dimension"?

White = Genoa
Blue = Full Asymmetrical
Red = Code Zero



Doyle's Code Zero is a hybrid spinnaker-genoa that measures with a minimum midgirth of 75% of the foot length and a leech length of not greater than 95% of the luff. The sail is uniquely shaped to sail at close apparent wind angles from 30 - 55 AWA.

Code 0 was a term that came about to identify a sail that was outside the "normal" sail wardrobe. For example big boats classify sails G or J 1,2,3,4,5 and A Kites as A 1,2,3,4. The J or G 1 being your light air jib or genoa and the A1 being your VMG kite (less cloth in the shoulders smaller girths etc).

These reaching sails that try to beat the design rules as a high reaching sail generally get slapped with a Code0 or A0 designation. For example the TP 52 had a huge genoa that they classified as a Code 0 until the class made them legal for distance racing, which at that time they became known as Masthead Genoas.

Anywhere else in the world the RED sail above would be classified as a A0.

There doesn't seem to be a clear uniform definition for these sails. In this thread we call them code-0's because that is how the monohull oriented sailing press call them. However according to Andrew Scott definitions (Doyle) we cat sailors actually call Code-0's assymmetric spinnakers or just plain spinnakers (75%-95% mid girth measurement) and the Booth sail is actually a Genoa.

Other names fro these sails are : reachers, hooters, screachers, furling spis and some others I have forgotten.

Wouter

I call my spinnaker "GET IN THE DAMN SNUFFER YOU POC"!

Then i throuw my harness at the tramp. spout out more profanities, and then i crawl out on the bow and untangle the spagatti from all over.

I had to try every trick in the book (soak in holmenkol, lube all poles, release the tack 1', dump the travler, head almost dead down wind... buy her flowers), but on sunday, the 2 times i snuffed it behaved much better and i was happier (and curesed much less)


Oh yea, about the Doyle info.. that was from their site and i dont think it was directed to catamaran sails.. don't know if it should matter.. but thought it was interesting data.

I get your point and I suspect you’re right that the IOC will not like this development.

I could not have said that better.
Thanks.

What's going to happen, throw the T's out of the next games?
Oh, that already happened! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

From Charlie's blog...

Qingdao, China - August 13, 2008 - The first race day for the Tornado Class in the Olympic Games is almost upon us. Tomorrow we sail a practice race and then on Friday we line up on Course A, the inshore race course right off the harbour breakwater and spectator grandstand, for the start of Race One. Two races are scheduled.

For everyone who wants to see Tornado Racing on television, the races on Friday will be your only opportunity before the Medal Race at the end of the series. NBC-TV will feature our racing live in a two-hour web-TV segment between 1:00 am and 3:00 am Eastern on Friday morning at http://www.nbcolympics.com/sailing/index.html. After that the footage will be archived and available for play-on-demand.

We completed our boat and sail measurements over the last couple of days, including the successful measuring in of our radical Chupacabra Code Zero gennaker. With the sail measured in and officially accepted, the only remaining decision was whether to employ it or stick with a standard gennaker during the series. We can’t have both. It was a tough and risky call. We know the sail will power us up in really light conditions going to windward, but in any breeze over 11 knots we’ll only be able to use it downwind and we’ll risk being outgunned by boats with standard gennakers. After carefully weighing the odds, we decided to press ahead and use it.

This versatile undersized gennaker which allows us to power to windward through a chop in really light airs has been considered by several teams since our development work became public about five weeks ago. We know for sure that our Dutch training partners Mitch Booth and Pim Nieuwenhuis have elected to go with a similar sail. We don’t know about others.

The sail has attracted a great deal of media attention and even questions about its legality. Everyone has an opinion but the simple truth is we have tweaked our sails for light air. In the Tornado Class every team has worked exceptionally hard to gain an edge and optimize every facet of their boat, rig and sails. Everyone has made their own choices on sail materials and special sail designs and shapes for the expected conditions. We did the same as everyone else, except that we designed and built a smaller sail that would be more adaptable in the four to eight knot wind range that we expect to predominate in the coming days.


Read more at Johnny and Charlie's blog at www.t-squaredracing.com

Get 'em, boys. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So only John/Charlie and Mitch/Pim went for the Code 0.
Let's wait and see how it will perform in the light and medium conditions (the forecast for the first two races is 15-20 knots). There is a general consensus that it may be an handicap in 11 to 18 knots, but over it may be again competitive.
This is an excerpt from today The Dailysail:
QUOTE
The forecast is critical to the call, with much fresher winds expected at the weekend. One Chinese forecast predicted 20 knots on Saturday and, accurate or not, this could still validate the Code 0 choice. Opinions differ about the gennaker’s precise optimum operating range, but 5-11 knots upwind seems to be the consensus. After that the Code 0 is short of grunt downwind, until the wind increases to the late teens when the small 18sqm gennaker boats can sail as fast as Tornadoes carrying conventional full-sized 25sqm spinnakers.
UNQUOTE

I still believe the conventional assymmetric will point lower in 18+ winds then the Code-0. So same speed maybe but at a higher angle. By definition almost the code-0 will have a rather flat entry (luff of the sail) and that will require the angle of attackt to be smaller then with a conventional spinnaker where the luff is significantly more rounded.

I have yet to experience being overpowered under spinnaker to such an extent that I had to flog the conventional speed because I couldn't steer any lower. So I dont think the smaller size of the code-0 is any advantage here. In theory the Code-0 can sustain higher downwind speeds because it won't collapse till a much higher apparent windspeed angle but I'm not at all convinced that the associated water surface condition will ever allow these speeds barring really unique situations with really flat water and very strong winds.

Of course I can be totally wrong but I really do see the Code-0 as step closed to a reaching sail then the assymmetric spinnaker. That means it has all the disadvantages that come with it as well, most notibly : less pointing upwind and less pointing downwind. In all conditions the old rig was nicely powered up the code-0 will be at a disadvantages and this includes 18+ wind in my opinion.

So now that my cards are on the table, lets see if reality strokes with the models ! Let the racing begin.

Wouter

Only Charlie and John, will be going 0, Mitch has selected his normal kite.

linky

Whow! What a gamble they are doing. Talk about throwing the dice..

US measured in 2 code zero's...... Talk about shutting down your options.

They will either be heros or zeros come next week.

Does this link work from abroad?: http://os2008.nos.nl/live/index/kanaal/4
(MS SilverLight required, better use IE).
Here's where the T's racing will be live tommorow morning (7:00 overhere).

2> U bevindt zich buiten Nederland

Steve - according to Charlie's blog, they measured in one of each, not two zeros.

Gleaned from TA's post over on SA dinghy forum:



Tornado Web Site News

Whew...I like the new Chupacabra...but I'm not a huge fan of it showing up at the Olympics...but still, that was frackin' harsh by an anonymous by-line at Tornado.org. At least they could sign their name to the same report posted that speaks in a derogatory fashion of "lightweight blogs".

The code 0 doesn't seems to perform, it was maybe just to confuse the other sailors.

From ISAF website
Spain’s two-time World Champions ECHAVARRI and PAZ hold a four point overall lead after their win in race 3 and a sixth place finish in race 2. Following the day’s second race in very light 5 knots winds, ECHAVARRI added his view on the controversy that has been surrounding the Code 0 sails, designed especially for light wind conditions that are being used by some teams. “During race 3 there was very light wind – the perfect conditions for Code 0 boats. However, the Code 0 boats didn’t perform very well. Looking back at the whole scenario before the competition with the selection between Code 0 gennaker and standard spinnaker, we are glad that we made the right choice,” ECHAVARRI said.

/hakan

Anybody have a linky to the preliminary Olympic Tornado results ?

Want to see how the code-0 is doing.

Wouter

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...8&an=0&page=0#Post155328

No you dont. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Saw the 470 ladies medal race live on TV this morning, great to see the Dutch team take the silver.

As an experiment it would have been better to see more then one crew try to code-0 (hooter) in this field. However, the results by team USA so far (only one with code-0 and 2nd in 2004 olympics) is far from promising.

Race 1 : 9 knots average winds placing 14th out of 15 competitors ; 7min:58sec behind winners
Race 2 : 7 knots average winds placing 12th ; 11:12 behind winners
Race 3 : 5 knots average winds placing 7th ; 2:49 behind winners
Race 4 : 20 knots average winds placing 11th ; 4:04 behind winners
Race 5 : 11 knots average (decreasing 13->8) winds placing 12th ; 2:58 behind winners
Race 6 : 8 knots average winds placing 14th ; 2:20 behind winners
Race 7 : 8 knots average winds placing 15th ; 4:04 behind winners


They are now 14th overall out of 15 competitors with only 1 regatta point ahead of the last place holder China whose team has already scored a OCS and a DNF ! At 70 points overall the US team with the Code-0 is 50 points behind the scoreboard leaders (1st and 2nd) who are tied in points. Even the number 10 in the listing is 22 regatta points ahead.

This is a pretty bad result for the 2004 Olympic silver medalists. With only 3 more races to go (max 45 point in even when DNS) they are off the podium for sure and will not even be able to break into to the top 10 places. The latter assuming the French team at 10th overall keeps doing what is has scored so far leading to an end score after 10 races of 69 where the US team already has 70 points and can never get below 73 even when scoring 3 bullets in the remaining races.

Either the crew was unlucky with some sickness or the Code-0 is one big dud. The conditions at Qingdoa seem to be similar to Athenes in 2004 where this team scored a silver medal.

For details like mark rounding times etc see :

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/Schedule/SA.shtml

Wouter

Actually, I think the results are a mixed bag of issues.

firstly, no team would attempt using a new technique or piece of equipement in an Olympic regatta without first knowing it would provide an advantage. Team USA, NED and PUR were all testing this sail as partners for over 1 year and were convinced in it's potential.

However, it seems to have a tight performance range and the added benefit in the relatively shorter races seems marginal.

Finally, the venue has lived up to expectations...not only light winds, but highly variable pressures/directions. Just look at the wide swings in the fleet mark roundings in most of the races.

I agree it appears the code zero Chupacabra has not workout for team USA, but I also don't think this regatta is a satifactory test of it.

And why not, this sail was devellopped by 3 highly professional teams over a period of years in a class with highly skilled and dependable sailors using the conventional setup and thus acting as the benchmark. How much better can a real life test be ?

I find it pretty instructive that 2 out of 3 teams who were party in developping this sail choose not to use it. Apparent they knew indeed what its limitation are and decided against it as soon as the predictions didn't show a series of days with the assumed narrow band of conditions.

I compare it to the test with the hydrofoils in the C-class; sure some say that that too was only one event with only 4 boat participating. However, for something to be a "new wapon" it needs to show significantly improved results at one point. Both hydrofoils and this code-0 aren't doing that in their first real tests. As a result the questions presents itself whether this pathway is sufficienty promising to continue. Again the current results are far more supportive of a negative answer then any positive one.

Of course this all withing the limits set by the Tornado class rules and upwind-downwind bouy races. The code-0 has proven itself within the other classes like the ORMA-60's and indeed the Extreme-40's. However mostly for other reasons then all out performance.

Wouter

Wouter,

An reason why this regatta might not be a good place to make decisions on the code 0 after the americans poor regatta is, maybe, they just had a bad regatta.

Tom Slingsby current Laser world champion also had a poor regatta result finishing in 22. Can't blame that on a poorly perfoming Chupacabra.

Skill, mental conditioning and equipment. Charlie and John have proven that they are good under pressure (Athens). They have good understanding of the geography/meteorology. That leaves the equipment.

To see what they say about it themself: http://www.t-squaredracing.com/content/view/103/25/

Sailing is a weather dependant sport and everyone knows you can not depend on the weather.

ALWAYS choose your equipment for the versatility and abity to perform in the widest possible range of conditions.

If you are playing the numbers game and can change equipment like a recreational windsurfer changes sail size as the wind varies through the day, OK. If you are planning for a week or longer event well off into the future, selecting equipment for a narrow performance band will be a big mistake more times than not.

There were only 2 of the 3 teams at the Olympics. So only 1 of the 3 teams choose not to use the sail.



I have used similar sails and I suspect the problem has to do with the difference between testing and racing. I found a hooter to be a big advantage when sailing against only a few boat, in clean steady air. I found it sucked when faced with the chaos of many boats going in different directions and shifty varying winds

Yes, but Bundock and Ashby had a code-0 project of their own that was pretty well developped. They too decided against it and that makes 3 teams in total even when the PUR guys fell away as you say.

Wouter

From Team USA Blog:



So, having a strong current shortened the time spent going to weather, increased it goign downhill...further minimizing the benefit on the CO.

Seems the winds were above what had been seen in the 3 year lead up. I'm not convinced the C0 is a failure based on this regatta.

one could also have said :

... further aggrevating the drawbacks of the CO.


Kind of halve full halve empty type of things.

Wouter

Team USA is now in last place, even behind the Ukrainian and Chinese teams (the Chinese even scored an OCS and DNF).
Results

Talk about a bad case of Code-0 tunnel vision with the <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So we can probably wrap this thread up with...



NO

Images from Andy's SailJuice blog. The sail has a specific application. If the Tornado series had started a week earlier, the outcome would have been different, and the conclusions just as invalid.

Both the Tornado and Star classes had significant equipment differences that, while within the rules, make some people uncomfortable. We'll see if ISAF or the IOC decide there are lessons to be taken away. If the event had been as light as the vast majority of us expected, the US teams in the Star and Tornado might have done much better, which would very likely have led to some serious discussion about "one-design-ness." Now I wonder if those conversations will take place. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I feel a bit sorry for the Belgian team though, they dropped their mast after the 1st race today theirby dropping out of the medal race, despite the RC waiting for them to sail the 2nd race.

what happened?

Gotta tape those spilt rings folks! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So, the tornado, hobie wave, and taipan have all had luck with the chupacabra\code zero\hooter\upwind gennaker. What other classes have been able to pull it off?

I frequent inland lakes that often have light and shifty air. 4-8 knot winds are not uncommon. Could I pull it off on a hobie 16?

More importantly, could it be pulled off on a Mystere 4.3??? And would it be class legal on the 4.3????? Yeah, I'm thinking about buying one.

It does not look like the T has pulled it off at all.

Could be a bit quicker upwind in the 3 to 7 knot range but all else, forget about it.

Don't forget this sail was developed with 3 to 7 knots in mind against a strong current against you upwind. Without the current on the nose upwind, you are giving away a large advantage to the standard boat around the bouys.

One-design may be good for the Olympics, but is incredibly boring. Intelligence and improvement require more space. The most politically correct one-design would be the Optimist. The youngest athletes in the games would deserve a lot of media attention.

The Chupacabra reminds me of Eric Tabarly. His open minded developments made him the greatest rule optimizer/bender. The Fastnet winning schooner with an enormous genoa between the masts forced a rule update. The depleted uranium keel forced another one, and the water ballasted solo transpac another. His hydrofoil tri motivated the categorization (does this word exist?) of the transatlantic record to separate monohulls from multihulls. The sea lawyers really had to run to keep up with his pace.

None remembers the sea lawyers who fixed the rules after his inovations (and achievements) - but all sailors remember the great man.

The Chupacabra is an innovation that Tabarly could have created. He would have loved it. The initiative is admirable of those who developed the sail, as is the courage of those who dared use it. Wining or not.

Cheers,

Well Said Luiz!
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For those who are primarily interested in sailboat technology perhaps OD is boring. For those of us who are interested in the art and science of sailboat racing OD is definitely not boring.