One for Rolf...

PR - 13 August 2008
3 New catamarans by Hobie Cat Europe for 2009
With the new season about to commence, Hobie cat Europe has been working to extend their range to renew some models as well as add other models, in order to reply to market demands. The first new model concerns the Formula 18.

Since a certain time, a number of rumors have been apparently circulating concerning a new Formula 18 project. In order to reply to this situation, today, 13 August, Hobie Cat Europe is pleased to announce that the project of a new 18 foot catamaran specifically for Formula 18 racing is in development. This project is using perhaps one of the best naval architechts in the world currently, particularly in multihulls, and a well-known sailmaker, in close collaboration with the worlds best F 18 racers, combined with the full technical and marketing staff of HCE. The latest high-tech developments will be used for this project.

The development of this new production F 18 should be seen as a new project, to exist along side the current Hobie Tiger, International ISAF Class, in which the next Worlds - currently under consideration - is Lake Garda for the year 2010.

More information will follow, as this new project nears production at Hobie Cat Europe in Toulon, France.

In the meantime, Have a Hobie Day!

Jean-François Collet John Dinsdale Michel Corigliano

www.hobie-cat.net ici pour vous désinscrire Copyright HCE 2008

I guess we will know soon enough the direction they are going with the design. Like will we see an inverted bow, wider hull, daggerboard placement, more bouyancy? With a still winning model like the Tiger this is a pretty aggressive step into the future. I applaud you John Dinsdale and company.

Later,
Dan

I was off by 9-10 months <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Another forecast: The Hobie Tiger becomes the Olympic one design multihull for 2016.

Hobie tiger or the new Hobie?

They'll have selection trials and I'd expect all the big players to be there.

I was thinking the Hobie Tiger, if there is to be a olympic multihull again. My reasoning is from reading the selection criteria years ago and the following:

It must be a ISAF international class.
It must have double trapeeze and spi
It must be a OD class
It must look flashy and modern

Only the Hobie Tiger qualifies today, and I dont think that will change much in the next 8 years.
Sure there might be an evaluation event, like in 2000 and like the youth multihull, but in the end ISAF Council decides whatever the committees and sailors say. I think the "fat old men in monohulls" will choose conservatively if the door opens for a multihull again. Just my personal prediction.
I would be very happy to see the Tornado class back in the games for many reasons.

Difficult one re the ollies.....


Would the other manufacturers "let" the Tiger be the olympic class? Maybe not.

Would the other F18 classes be happy with the Tiger? Nope

Would making the Tiger the Olympic class be good for the F18, probably not.

Would the "fat men in Mono's" be happy with a development class like the F18, Nope

Were the "fat men in Mono's" happy with the Tornado as it is a development class(I know the T assoc say it's one design, but it's not, more than one manufacturer, nothing to stop others entering the market and as we have seen, sails are open within certain paramaters) - Nope

However, all the manufacturers can make massive trouble if one class of F18 is chosen, so if the Multihull gets back in, I'd bet it would be the T, or some other "designed for the ollies class".

1 bet for the Tiger
1 bet for the Tornado

What else <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Can I sau that I would favour the Volvo Extreme 20 as the next olympic boat. (Basically the M20 with a sloop rig using the Tornado Carbon mast)

I think it is time to have the Olympic multihull discipline go with the times and the Tornado is not the platform to do that anymore. The Volvo Extreme 20 has the advantages of offering everything the Tornado was in a good sense but in a modernized and more performant package. It still has Marstrom building quality but is lighter, stiffer, has daggerboards and looks more modern.

Wouter

You can say that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
It dont meet the selection criteria for olympic classes with respect to being an international class but as history have shown, you never know with Council.

1 x Tiger
1 x Tornado
1 x Volvo Extreme 29

I'll bet for the Tiger too, with Hobie supplied boats at the olympics.

Wouter,
Can you post a link for the Volvo Extreme you are referring.
CAn't seem to find specs or pics.
Thanks.

They've also MADE the 49-er class fit the criteria after it was pretty clear that it would get in.

It is not a hard thing to do when the promise of becoming olympic is obvious. Hell all serious Tornado sailors will switch creating instantly a sufficient basis for ISAF recognized status. The year following the class satisfies all conditions.

By the way the design is called Volvo Extreme 20 and not Volvo Extreme 29 !

Wouter

The 29 was a typo, on my keyboard 9 and 0 is next to each others <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2 x Tiger
1 x Tornado
1 x Volvo Extreme 20

About the rest; like I wrote, you never know with council.
If they are holding an evaluation event, I want to see a Blade20 there, submitted by Formula Catamarans Australia <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't make all of these assumptions when you're talking about the IOC. They're perfectly happy to use old equipment from one manufacturer (I'm thinking Laser here).

I do agree that IF (and these are big IFs) they choose the Tiger and IF they want to not allow development, that could cause issues for the class. They would essentially have to pick the boat and freeze the design to the current design at the time, or pick an end date for development, or something to that effect. Again, this assumes that they want SMOD, not sure if that's going to be a priority for them.

And, once they make any decision, they don't seem to be the type that care what anyone else thinks, sailors, or otherwise; so I'm not putting much weight on the idea that the non-chosen manufacturers can cause much heartache for them. The manufacturers can try, but it wouldn't look good PR-wise for them to cause more trouble regarding multihulls after the current mess we're in.

Mike

source : http://www.sail-world.com/europe/index.c...amp;tickerCID=0

Prototype Volvo Extreme 20

Herbert Dercksen takes the helm of the prototype Volvo Extreme 20, with Aaron Mcintosh (NZL) crewing for him. Dercksen about his latest project, enabled by Zwitserleven:

'This carbon cat is based on the M20, but has a different sail plan. You can consider it as a possible successor of the Tornado. Is carries a Tornado mast, the jib is smaller and the main a bit bigger. The VX 20 weighs 125 kilograms, which is 45kg less than the Tornado. I have learned a lot over the past years, so it is very exciting to helm by myself now. I look forward to the race.' At the moment, Dercksen is skippering the Extreme 40 in the Swiss Bol d’Or on Lake Geneva.

For measured specs go to the Texel rating system website and look Volvo Extreme 20 up in the table :

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/numdet_11-7-2008.pdf

Sadly, the TR committee has recently uploaded an unreadable table so here a summery.

extreme 20
Rating with spi 87 (Tornado is at 94 now, F18 at 101, Nacra 20 at 94)
Length 6,07 mtr.
width 2.92 mtr
Weight 132 kg

mainsail area 22,05 sq. mtr
mainsail luff 10,29 mtr
area jib 4,30 sq. mtr.
jib luff 6,23 mtr
I believe a 25 sq. mtr spinnaker

And I think that jib area measurement look suspicious, I would expect that jib to be about 5.00 sq. mtr in surface area considering its luff length.

two pictures below







In my opinion choosing a design like the V20 avoids all the pitfalls that have been mentioned. It can be founded as a true OD class (despite the fact that I personally dislike that setup) and it doesn't unhinge any existing class (like the F18) by selecting (favouring) only one builder over all others. Yet this boat is pretty modern in all respects (could do with a more advanced hull shape) and performant.


Wouter

Mike,

just a small note. It is ISAF, and in the end ISAF Council, who selects the sailing events and the equipment to be used in the games. The IOC tells ISAF how many athletes and medals they can have.

Dumb question, What's SMOD?

Single Manufacturer One Design is what it means for me.

One of the few things I agree with you, the hull shape really not that advanced. Looks like 2 tubes of toothpaste to me.

Wouter,
Whats the purpose of the silver fleet? What kind of license do you have to buy to race? And why do the Dutch specifically have to buy one?

Bill

Remember the most important feature in boat for the IOC is for the the builder or builders to supply X identical charter boats, preferably free and then way down the list the boat should float and move under wind power.

The only thing that fits is the Tiger.

How do you know that Carl?
Everybody but the Laser sailors brings their own boats as far as I know, even the winsurfers, and I dont know how the Lasers are financed.

I see the advantage for the IOC and the arranging country, but I would like to know more.

And if Hobie brings out another F18, they don't have the need to update the Tiger to new F18 rules, they'll probably freeze its class rules as is. If you want the newest hype in F18, go and buy the new "Leopard", if you want OD Hobie racing and still a valid boat for F18, stay with the Tiger. Thus it probably would not affect too much the F18 class, nor other F18 manufacturers.

I would expect them to pick the new Hobie F18 "Leopard". That is my prediction.

Mike Hill

Someone will lobby them for a 20 footer with foils, and start an ISAF OD 20 class with a pimped out hull design and sailplan.

Hobie cat are not targeting professional sailors with their design and build quality, they aim for the recreational sailor. Make a dedicated multihull for the olympics that is durable and has top quality. A multihull is more complex to build than a monohull and has high loads that must be handled with correct design, material and build quality. That's why it is such a bad idea to take a cheap multihull boat and hope that it will work the same way as with the Laser.

/hakan

Except for the Tornado, dont you see any other alternatives in the current beachcat world?

I dont think build quality and lifetime of the boats will matter much for those making the decisions. The Laser dont have a very long competitive either.

Does the naming convention mean Apple is buying Hobie?

F18's cost ~$20K US.... I know the dollar is down against the Euro, hardly a cheap recreational boat! That said, an average sailor that spends ~$40K on a new Marstrom might want to have his head examined. This price is another blow to the T-class, great boat, too many practical liabilities to remain viable, and price is one of them.

The whole concept of the F18 was to build fast boats at reasonable costs and grow the class-a good idea. (That's why there is a 'no carbon' provision in the box rule. Seems to be working. Now, even the T sailors compete on F18's as part of their training, and the boat remains within accessible price range for pros, serious amateurs and also novice sailors.)

Therefore I wouldn't say 'cheap', I'd say 'accessible'.

A new Olympic ready Tornado, fully loaded for racing, is just too expensive for the number of sailors that want to sail them.

If an accesible cat, that really is sailed by more than a few pros, gets the olympic status, it would be very positive for the multihull community. Younger people would get on the boat, the local and national federations would support the class etc. This was not happening with the Tornado, at least in Spain, and this is mostly due to the elevated cost.

But boat costs are almost irrelevant wehn costing a campaign. When I was doing it, it was about 10% costing for boats and the rest logistics. If it's cost based the Star needs binning.

Certainly the cost of the boat was used against the Tornado in Estoril when ISAF Council kicked multihulls out of the games. Most teams have two or three boats which they ship around or leave in place for the big events, so it is not the boats or even the sails that make this expensive. If boat costs was analyzed, or campaign budgets, I would like to see some of the Star and Yngling account books. It is as Simon says, logistics, hotels and fees. Not having a regular income is the other big part of it.

We dont have to take this thread down that route again, we have done so before. Far more interesting to hear what people THINK Council might prefer, and why.

I wonder if HCE is even going to ship them to the United States. We get two of their models, Tiger and FXone.

If there is money in it, why not?

First, I don't disagree with anything you say. That said, the advent of the de facto SMOD Olympic Tornado ultimately drove the price out of sight, and has contributed to the problems of the T, (despite the fact that the T is a fantastic boat). Keeping the price of the boat down is important to the class, but not an Olympic campaign. However, both price and competitive considerations are ultimately important to the sustainability of the MH class in the Olympics, albeit for very different (yet complimentary and synergistic) reasons. Cheaper boats is supposed to = more MH sailors. More MH sailors means better competitions, better competition means better Olympic spectacle. An accessibly priced, competitive boat is a means to this end.

Lillia or Mader star $48,000-$60,000 depending upon all of the other factors, mast, sails, rigging, ect...
Marstom Tornado $42,000 including VAT.
Yngling $48,000-$52,000

As windswept shows above, the facts are that the T is not the most expensive boat.

The T is also the most long lasting.

We did some numbers a while back and the T is one of the cheaper boats to sail at the ollies in terms of boat costs as they last so long.

Yes there is high initial cost to set it up; but once set up things settle down to running expenses that will be similar to most of the other boats - I hear horror stories of laser sailors going thru 30 masts before choosing a couple they like and similar for hulls. I've also been told that a laser hull lasts 3-4 months before they get another one.

yes, Laser hulls are allocated at the games and so they don't pay for the last boat, but I assume they pay for all the boats they use up to the games.

You really need to dig into the detail to get to the true campaign costs.

It is all part of a power struggle between the Dutch national organisation for cat sailors and the official Dutch Sailing Federation. The cat sailors are by vast majority not a member of the official national sailing association KNWV (like US sailing) and have formed a long time ago their own organisation (over 30 years ago) together with two other unrepresented groups; NFB. Basically, the KNWV didn't want to have us back then and so we went our own way. Now the KNWV is trying to bring back these renegates into the fold. So they struck a deal with the Texel organisation and other officially recognized classes (like F18) that each racers needs to present an officially sanctioned KNWV racing-license when entering. Basically it is a trick to have cat sailing pay dues to the KNWV. But of course when push comes to shoove the representative at Estoril voted against the Tornado class. We are good for the money but nothing else.

The coastal clubs (85% of all cat sailing in NL) luckily are keeping the KNWV out of there events and clubs so for those you don't need any "racing-license".

About this Texel silver fleet; well there is a sizeable group of sailor that couldn't care less about any "racing-license" and certainly not for a single event per year. In order to NOT kill off Round Texel economically they made a loophole and that is the silver fleet, you don't need a KNWV racing license to participate in that fleet.

Personally, I'm all for an alternative Round Texel event, back to the roots, where the normal sailor is again the focus of the event and you don't have to put pay (combined) hunderds of Euro's for a starting permit, racing license, glass of beer etc and still have to stick scored of sponsor stickers to your hulls and sails.

Next weekend one of those old NFB sanctioned events is coming up again. The NAM-REM race, almost as long as the Round Texel, entry fee 50 bucks, food incl. for another 10 bucks, beer 1.25 a glass. Have a good time for under 100 Euro's and get to do the bouyracing on sunday as well. About 100 boats participating.

Wouter

Would you come if I arranged "Rounde Gossa" and two days of buyo racing in midsummer? All for the sailors and their experience. Midnight sun (almost), great scenery and fairly predictable conditions..
I would not think so, except once for the experience and the trip. I think people go to the big events becouse they are well known and gives the weekend warriors a chance to fulfull their dreams. I agree that smaller events usually are much better and more fun, but I still want to go to Texel some time.

Oh, and by the way here is the map reference to "Gossa" (I live just to the east of the island):
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aukra&sll=62.760065,7.000527&sspn=0.008682,0.034504&ie=UTF8&ll=62.831327,6.915894&spn=0.277162,1.104126&t=h&z=10

Rolf,
Are you talking this year or next year?

Bill

This years Texel race have been run, and next year I will be coming to terms with my F16. 2-4 years I would hope.

You are right, I don't know what the current IOC thinking is however, in 2004 or 2005 the Laser was IOC's model for the future of Olympic sailing. Since then they have made the Laser Radial the women's single hand dinghy.

The reasons are complicated and I don't understand the politics enough to explain it. It seems to spiral out from the fact that the IOC doesn't like equipment issues. It make the poor but, full voting members, feel they don't have a chance.

Also there is the IOC emphasis on the athlete (young and photogenic). Equipment sports tend to favor the older, more experienced, obsessive, etc. The more variation permitted in the equipment, the more it tends to favor the older, more experienced, obsessive, etc.

There is a number of elite sports in the Olympics and they are very easy to spot: just look for kings and royals in their federations. Since elite sports are politically incorrect (but in kingdoms) and sports are becoming more and more important as a politic tool, their federations feel the need to make them look popular in order to keep the olympic status while the same elite holds effective control.

I see the Laser and Windsurf as smoke curtains. If the move towards popular boats was honest, the Finn would have been excluded long ago, the 49er would have replaced the 470 instead of joined it, the Hobie 16 would have been the Olympic multihull, the keelboat wouldn't remain Olympic and kites would be at least in the pipeline.

That said, expensive equipment effectively cap the chances of poor countries.

If the VX20 or M20 is selected, it will put the boats a step further away from aspiring sailors. Atleast at the moment the Tornado is a platform with long longlivety and there are a lot of them on the second hand market.

The M20 platform will also have a long life span but there are very few on the second hand market. Those who are in the position to buy new will also hang onto the boats for a long time like we are seeing with the T's. It would be great to see a more modern platform but will not be realistic to those cash limited sailors looking to enter the class. The Tornado platform may also be old and look out of date, but it is in another league to any other cat I have sailed (have not sialed an M20)..... So the hull shape may be old but still VERY effective.

Saying stuff like that is a good way to get up any common norwegians nose. In sailing King Harald and King Constantine are non voting honorary members of the executive committee. In government our king dont have much power over the running of his government. He means a lot for sailing here and supports the sport greatly. He and his father both sailed a lot at a very high level. He is also very popular and supported by the people, far more than our politicians.
For you to mix him, sailing and low down politics/nationalism can only be excused by lack of knowlegde.




Boats and classes are not all alike. That is for sure.



It would be well documented and understood by now that the equipment cost is not what stops poor countries from competing at the highest level. It is the logistics, starting fees and travelling costs that makes it expensive. So what is your reasoning behind that statement?


[qoute]The Tornado platform may also be old and look out of date, but it is in another league to any other cat I have sailed (have not sialed an M20)..... So the hull shape may be old but still VERY effective. [/quote]

The platform have been tweaked as good as possible within the class rules, and the class rules have been changed somewhat over the years to make the boat faster. I.e. like lowering the min. weight. What makes the boat fast today is the power plant/rig and excellent stiffness. The hulls and centerboards are not as fast as the shapes we have available today. With the most skilled sailors in the world sailing a boat, that boat will be fast anyway. But that is "just" a technical matter. The politics of getting a multihull back into the games are by far more important.

Yes the T rig is very potent, the platform is not at the cutting edge but is "still VERY effective"

The construction methods used in the platform have improved but the hull shape is still the same as when it was first designed..... These rules have not changed.

Come on now Rolf, I would have thought you would agree that there are very few boats that are as satisfying as sending a T down the course on a big downwind.

Yes the M20 / VX20 may be a better platform, but as I said above, I believe it will be a setback to multihulls if it made it to the Olympics. The T is a much better choice.

How many VX20s would you imagine we will see at Olympic Class regatta's around the world if it was selected, such as Sail Melbourne, Sail Auckland, Miami.... I know we do not see many Tornadoes at these events and at times have years where they do not make a showing, but if the VX20 was selected, I highly doubt you will see a multihull back at these events. How many hopefulls will be runing around on these platforms???

Oh yes, I would like to see the T keep its olympic status. It s a very good boat for the games and keeping it would not ruin any other classes. I do think that have become politically impossible over the last six months the way things have played out though.

I dont think the M20 design is something special. Construction yes, but not the design itself. I think we will see the Hobie Tiger as the next olympic multihull (if we manage to get back in the games in 2016) for the reasons I outlined in the start of the thread.



Now that Hobie Europe is launching a new F18, it makes even more (political) sense that the Tiger gets the nod. Especially if Hobe throws some money after ISAF like providing boats for the games.
Personally what I would like is a wholly new OD class with multiple manufacturers and really stright class rules.
If it was the VX20 or the M20 who got the nod I dont think the number of participating boats at worlds, the "WC" etc. would drop a lot compared to today. Sure there are some weekend warriors who go to events, but look at the numbers when the T have gone outside catamaran heartland.
If we are to get back in the games we should forget about which boat and work with out MNAs to fortify multihulls there. AUS and NOR are both multihull supporters, but we can probably do more with our MNAs.

Sadly I agree with you. If the big T does not get reinstated, I hope the class continues as a successful class. Perhaps, with affordable boats coming on the market, it will attract a new group of sailors who dreamed of owning Tornadoes.

Right now the Tornado is a good fit for the Olympics. I think that the Code 0 sail has brought un-needed complications to the class as far as its suitability to be an Olympic class. It is not the sail that I disagree with but the timing of this happening. With that said though, the Tornado fits the bill and other classes wont be disrupted by being chosen as an Olympic class. I still marvel at my tornado everytime I get on it and set it on a blazing reach. I like my A-Class but I love my Tornado. I think that as far as 2012 goes, it is now up to ISAF to petition the IOC for an eleventh event before going to the five disciplines approach in 2016. It seems that from a conversation that I had recently with an ISAF executive member that ISAF is considering petitioning IOC after the Olympics are over. If ISAF makes a true effort with this petition, which is not a given, then there is still a small chance that there will be a multihull event for 2012.

The unmentioned large grey mammal in this thread (elephant) is, for most sailors, the 10 foot width of the T. Are these real suggestions that no modern materials should be employed in such a universally accepted cat?
Also- We appear to exist in a down-sized, energy-deprived century, do we not? Who will be driving 6 mile per gallon F-350 diesel Ford trucks to the beach? Start planning for the future, people!

The 10 foot beam only seems to be an issue for those who do not or have never sailed a Tornado. Tornado sailors past and present generally do not have a problem with the beam off the water. ..... It really is not that big a deal.

On the water however, the 10 foot beam is what makes the boat. Once you sail a 10 foot boat, you don’t want to go back.

The 10' beam on the boat makes it an issue for trailering which has definately turned many sailors off. We had a strong fleet in NE at one ppoint. When we lost our storage lot accross from Quincy Bay at the Hingham Yacht club, that is when the fleet slowly fell apart. The having to re-rig the boat between each sail was something that most did not want to deal with. I only rig my Tornado now when I have a place to leave it set-up for more than one day. For me a tilt trailer would definately solve the issue. But on the water, the 10' beam truly is great.

Rolf,

I fully understand you and have nothing against kings, queens and their families, especially the Norwegian royal family. I happen to know a few of them and can personally confirm that they deserve the people's confidence. Their support is important for sailing even in Brazil: one of the most traditional regattas in Rio is King Olav's regatta in november.

Please don't take the fact that elite sports can be spotted by the presence of kings/queens in their federations to imply anything else.

Yeah my coments were based on if you have a tilt trailer. A bit more work to assemble platforms if you don't have one.

The only way to get a lot of hours on the water is to have the boat at a club or at the local waterfront. Hours on the water is in my opinion the only way to become fast. So to train efficiently you need to have the boat ready to go, just hoist the mainsail and get on the water. It dont matter if the boat is 10 or 8 feet wide if it is at the club?

Is it just multis that are trailer sailed in Aus and US, or is this the way it is for most dinghys as well?

I just can not imagine trailer sailing any boat, would take so much more time. Now it looks like they are building a small boat harbour just 5 minutes (literally) from our house, and I have already flagged my interest of keeping a cat there. Looks like it will happen as well as it is one more member to pay dues and be part of the community works.