7 races per day in championship... Fair???

Is it fair to run 7 races a day in a week long championship?

See peter nelson's comments in the H16NA thread about top sailors missing races for some examples.

By contrast, The Tornado class limits championships to two races per day, at the OCR in Miami.. the class reluctantly agreed to a max of three for the class.

The reasons are ... breakdowns... If you breakdown and can't finish the day... you are out at most two races.. At the the 16 nationals... you could miss three races in just a couple of hours for a repair.

Secondly, A champinship should be about Peak performance...Sailing is not at its core a marathon sport.. Usually it's a game of skill, stamina and fitness. Starting at 8:30 and going to 5:30 is shifting the balance well over to stamina and fitness and less about peak sailing performance.

Opinions?

Is it not man and machine? Sometimes the best driver has a car breakdown and loses the race, is that fair?

You are kidding, right?

1. Breakdowns; simple rule. 5 Ps: Prior Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. If your boat and your body are not fully prepared then (IMO) you shouldn't expect to finish well.

2. Peak performance: Being ready to sail in a national-caliber race means you are ready for anything the PRO throws your way, both physically and mentally. Sailing catamarans is a physical sport. Long days on the water weeds out the particpants from the champions.

3. Any questions? Amen.

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
PS: I'm over 50 and a Type 1 diabetic; still going strong!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's fair if it is known by everyone well in advance so that ppl can prepare their boats and themselves.

It does seem a bit strange though. 7 races/day over 5 days equals 35 races. That's more than some ppl race in a year. Certainly get your money's worth.

Can redress be sought if damage is caused by a collision that keeps you out of races?

I'm not going there with the "fair or not" discussion, but here is some info that might be helpful...

Having raced under, and worked on the Signal Boat with PU at a ridiculous number of NAs starting in 1997, I can shed a bit of insight...

For Hobie 16s, racing in 30 knots is ABSOLUTELY to be expected.

4-5 races per day is typically his target for NAs.

7 events in one day rarely happens, and only happens when there are numerous days of little or no races (either after a day or two of no races, or in front of a day with a bad weather forecast). He would not run off 5 days of 7 races.

Having also worked at a number of different championship events for other classes of boats, including Olympic trials, I can tell you that many other classes have a scheduled number of races per day (such as two). The schedule may allow up to one more per day, to either get ahead or catch up, in the event of missing races due to weather (or some other major issue).

Redress can be sought for missing races due to damage, assuming it's not your fault. I don't know if there is precedent for that to apply to more than one race. Ultimately, that is a question for the jury to decide.

EDIT: Before anyone asks (you'd be amazed at how many times I've heard this question), the key part here for a BYOB regatta is, the damage MUST be caused by an event that was not your fault to get redress. You cannot get redress if something on your own boat breaks (such as falling through and ripping a sail in a capsize that was not caused by someone else).

Supplied boat events are different, and you can get redress for a random broken part, again, at the discretion of the jury (so people don't sabotage a supplied boat if they have a bad race). And, if you capsize in a puff away from other boats and rip a sail, that would probably be considered "your fault."

Hope this helps.

Mike

Seven races in one day, after losing a day to no wind, followed by a day of five races? That's not unfair.

I liked to know the elapsed times of the races. Knowing the limitations in course size at Clear Lake, the wind speed, and the standard Hobie courses, the likelihood of any of the last 12 races taking much longer than 45 minutes is slim.

Exhaustion? Maybe some have being trying to pace the 'Ricans in rum consumption, instead of sleeping and eating their wheaties. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Everyone heard the hype of these typical wind conditions

Mark are you kidding ? They have only got 14 races in over four days that is 3.5 races per day if they raced every day. I go to regattas to race not sit on the beach. We sailed 5 races last saturday and started at 1:00 and finished at 4:30 sailing three lap races about 30 min each.

Good point John. PU's target time is typically 50-60 minutes for a championship event. But, if the wind and geography doesn't play along, that can be tough to hit.

Mike

Hi Dave and Bob

No, not kidding!
As Brucat noted... Most of the other class non cat Championship regattas that he has worked limit the number of races to two or three IN THE NOTICE OF RACE

The Tornado Class does it... I will bet money without looking that the F18's do the same.

So, Must be some reason....

In Tornado's...the reasons I was given was equipment breakdown did not knock you out of a good finish with a throw and limit of races per day.

I am certain there are others.

I have also seen Olympic level crew's needing assistance after three races in 15 knots.

Other classes LIMIT the number of races in a championship...eg 11 races with one throwout. The Hobie 16 culture of run em till the time runs out... go for the record ... or till you die is very different

For sure... this philosophy gets you the most amount of sailing for you money.

I am just asking the question and pointing to the differences that exist in the sport. We are not the first group of sailors to consisder this question ... and we differ from the majority of classes... Might be good to have some good clear reasons. My only issue is again one of clarity and full disclosure.
Just as NOR's declare the limit races per day and races per championship. Perhaps they should be clear when the intention of the championship is to have unlimited races and unlimited races per day.

Fair is probably the wrong word to use here...Reasonable, appropriate, sporting,... something else may be better
(fair does get a good knee jerk response though).

So a more open ended quesiton how about:
12 races in two days... Why?

Mark

The F18 does not have a limit on the number of races per day.

I went to a regatta last year about 4 hour drive each way and we had wind and only got 2 races (20min,30min)on Saturday. On sunday we had One race 30min. The total racing time was 1:20 with a cost of Entry 80.00, fuel 200.00 I don't think I will go next year. If the weather does not work out I can understand but the RC just did a bad job of running the races.

I think PU was just trying to get races in when he had good wind.

I think Marks question is a reasonable one.
I do think the 2 or 3 race limits are foolish.
Sit on the beach for a day or two and then go sail 2 races on a perfect day? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
The National events are being held to crown a champion and to promote the sport.
Sailing 7 races in a day becomes no fun and can drive away the bottom half of the fleet and maybe some youth.
When I have raced with my daughter at Nationals our goal was always to finish all the races. If I did that I felt that we would shake out mid pack(not bad at 16's).
I don't know that I could expect a teenager to stay out for 7 races in those conditions.
I'm thinking a 5 race maximum would still identify the best sailor and keep it fun and competitive for all.

I have said it many times.
The Nationals should crown a champion and make everyone else feel like one.

My own class doesn't regulate the number of races per day either and I think that to be a good decision, especially for far off and costly events like nationals and worlds where bad weather can deprive you of several days sailing.

However, I'm not signing up for 5 or more races a day during a whole week when singlehanding a spinnaker boat like the F16. I may well do on single string boats like the H14/H16 but not on an all out sport boat like the one mentioned above.

The biggest thrills we get overhere is taking H14 and H16 sailors along on F20's, F18's and F16's; especially when they BS that once you master a H14/H16 you can sail any catamaran. We have them begging for mercy before starting on the second lap of the first race.

Sort of illustrates the difference in racing a H16 and a modern spinnaker boat. And by God, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE !

Wouter

At the 2008 HNAC 17/18/Tigers we ran to the maximum races allowed in the SI's. 20 races.
For the Tiger Class a longer course was set. The RC ran a course 2 all day long, and our times were averaging about an hour and 15 minutes. This was in double trap strength winds. In the Tiger Class you are allowed instrumentation.(GPS) It was reported that each race the boat covered about 14 miles.
We ran no more than 5 races in any one day if I remember correctly. And by Wednesday I was feeling it. By Thursday I was showing it. However, on Friday we all dug deeper inside and pulled out some of the best racing of the week.

In preparation for the week long event many teams worked out, lost weight, and got ready. Everyone put time into their boats to make sure they were also up to the challenge.
We had teams capsize and blow through a sail, or bend a boom. But none of the boats failed to make a race due to poor maintanance issues. I had a trap line stop break while I was on the wire, and this caused me to eject from the boat. But we rigged up a short line and continued racing the day.
To me, this was all part of the experience. The training, the preparation, and the challenge of dealing with the unexpected.

It comes down to, can you AND your boat go the distance?
Long days will benifit the teams that have come prepared.

The Wave Nationals got in 18 races in three days last year. The races are shorter than most.., we shoot for about 30 minutes per race.
Everyone seems to enjoy it. Of course, Waves don't break down. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Rick

7 races are way too much. A normal race takes around 45-60 minutes and with general recalls, resetting of the course and waiting for all the boats to finish means at least 1.5 hour between each start. That means a very long day on the water, no fun! I prefer two races, lunch break at the beach, and then two more races. This gives you a SOCIAL LIFE at the regatta and that's important.

/hakan

On the work side of things, 7 races can beat a RC and mark/ rescue boats, support staff, etc. However, I've heard PU say it many times and I agree, "This is a NA (World) Champoinship people should be prepared to race at that level."
People are competing to be the BEST H16 sailor in North America, that's a pretty big deal.

Now if it were a div or fleet race, 7 is probably too much.

J

As usual, Pat is brilliant... "The Nationals should crown a champion and make everyone else feel like one."

Hard to argue with that logic. Make everything about an event fall in line with this, and you're doing it right.

Not to say that's always an easy thing to do when the weather doesn't cooperate, but if you pay attention to what the sailors actually want, it's not that hard, either. (OK, now as long as no one brings up the 20s in Tampa...)

Mike

Yes it's fair but when you run seven or even six races in a day you are really beating people up and chasing away a lot of potential competitors at future championships. I think it's safe to say that this will not happen again.

I almost didn't remember to post this:

HTFU

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY3TfjOeuhM

Is the point of the event to crown an endurace champion or determine the best Hobie 16 team?

At some point you cross a line from one to the other.

Was this info in the NOR? How many discards? and was there a medal race?
We are all different! and want different things from a Regatta. Last week MYC held the UK Tornado National Champs and one competitor, packed up, went home after the 2nd race because he was going slow, or was it a wind shift? we will never know.
As long as YOU know what you are letting yourself in for then who cares!!!!!

I learned from an old pro PRO the one word that should describe a race committee is invisible. That means nothing you do should effect the racers. Seven races in one day sounds like an ego trip by the PRO and a survival of the fittest endurance test.

What ever happened to the "Have A Hobie Day" philosophy?

Seven races in one day is (was) highly unusual. We were on the third day of the event with only two races completed. The weather predicted for the fourth day looked dismal.

PU was not on an ego trip - he was trying to get races in on the only day he thought he could.

He was highly efficient. There were no general recalls. There were individual recalls. He didn't even need to use the I flag with us, we were so well behaved at the starts.

The target race time was 45 minutes. He kept to a 1 hour cycle time (start of one race to the start of another). We were on the water for 7 1/2 hours (9:30 AM - 5 PM). Every race was a course 2, with the exception of the last which was a course 6 to finish us back at the beach.

The 5 races on the following day were a "gift" - totally unexpected. It's easy to have 20/20 hindsight and say, "Seven races was too many in one day." Would we have been saying that if we got no races in on Thursday? With only one light race on Friday? That would have made a grand total of 10 races in 5 days.

At the NACRA North Americans, I warned the competitors that I planned to run races with no lunch break the first day. I told them to bring water and snacks out with them. There was some bitching and moaning (especially when I did it to them on the second day) - but after I had 10 races in the bag, I lightened up and gave them a lunch break on the third day.

Of course, we pissed away the best wind of the day by doing that.

I was beaten to a pulp from the seven races, beaten enough that morale was diminished to the point that we went in after three gnarly capsizes on Thursday. The tragedy is that they took place prior to the end of the first race. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Wednesday had three capsizes as well. One of which I’m sure that that the hand of God was smiting me for some past trespass and I'm convinced there was no saving or prevention to be had.

I'm not a national level competitor. I didn't delude myself with any prospects or hopes of finishing in the top ten, twenty, or even thirty boats. With 55, (56?), boats on the line and the crowd that was there I would have been shooting for the mid 40's. I was in 48th at one point, and slipped into 50th at the end, which I’m completely comfortable with.

Unless there was going to be a NAC for the FXone, I will not be doing another NAC again. Maybe I’m not competitive enough, or just a pussy. I did H20 Nationals earlier this and wish I hadn’t. I now feel that way about 16 Nationals. You can argue that it is a test, a test to wean out the non hackers. I’m now sure that I’m a hack and not worthy. Had I known what the conditions on Thursday were going to be what they were, I would have not raced the last two races on Wednesday. I probably would have not bailed so early the next day. To each their own, but it’s not my cup ‘o’ tea.

1. Don't make excuses.
2. Recognize there's a problem.
3. Propose a solution.

Proposed Solution
4 races per day maximum
Add to NOR and SIs

Bob,

Good call. I have noticed since I returned to sailing Hobies that you are a voice of wisdom and calm. You were especially eloquent in your letter to USSA concerning mandatory membership.

We hope to make the 16 NAC again (last time was Biscayne Bay in ’74) and 4 races a day would be just right.

Hi Bob... Could you say more... eg target time.. 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 75 minutes?

The reason I ask is, given the size and competition of the NA Hobie 16 Fleet... How long of a race is needed to sort out the fleet based on skill and not luck?

The course geography will impact the PRO's ability to manage the competition.. (eg.. can't get to the lay line on one tack... max weather leg is 1 miles etc etc)... How does that impact the time and number of races in the pre planning stage?



Ding Ding... Managing everyone's expectations is critical for everyone to go away happy... If you know that 4 races are schedulued.. you can plan for it or choose to not attend.


Final question, Should the championhship schedule be set at less then the maxium number of races per day (4) times the number of days (4) or 16 races based on your proposal?
Lots of other classes seem to set the championship on 10 or 12 races for a perfect regatta.

45 to 60 minute races.

Personally I believe such regulations are better not being part of the class rules.

That is what we have SI for and honestly sometimes the RC has to make the least bad choice out of a set of bad options, we got to give them that freedom I believe.

Wouter

Wouter ... Why not in the class rules?

If you had a XXX championship and the SI's said... One race will count (because that is how the OA runs their weekend regatta)... ... Would the class be happy with this standard? ... or would they want the class standards spelled out for the host club. Heck...Classes reserve to set a wind speed min and max for events to manage the competition.(I remember a huge protest at F18 championship in Va). Why not the number of scheduled races per day. Max number allowed, Min number for championship, max number of events to count for the series.(indeed the tornado class rules do this)

As you look down a list of class champions...I would like to know that all met a certain standard to claim that title.

Seems to me you can't or shouldn't leave such a defining issue up to each OA.

In the end... the class ensures the integrity of it's traditions, history and quality by these decisions.

As always... if they are spelled out in writing... you don't have much standing to bitch later.

Because the model class rules for ISAF International classes exclude "event management" issues.

The proper way to deal with this is in a "Class Event Manual" - which is what the Hobie and many other classes use.

Class Rules cover the equipment and are part of the RRS.

Event Manual covers the requirements of major events and is not part of the RRS.

Thanks Matt

It would appear that the Tornado Class told ISAF to stuff it and have their international event requirements in their class rules appendix. (I assume being in the appendix does make it part of the RRS...)

http://www.tornado.org/uploads/documents...ppendix%20C.pdf

Basically
2 races per day, 10 to count for the championship with one throw. Lay day in the middle. My experience is that they want 1.5 hour races. I know for OCR's the schedule called for two or three tornado races (just like the lasers)

Could you point me to the Hobie event document.. I could not find it on the IHCA site.

The North American Event Manual is here.

Thanks Matt,

That's a hell of a resource, but it seems to leave all of these schedule issues up to the PRO and no need to publish the details before the event. Did I miss it? Does Hobie leave Worlds up to each national authority with reguard to championship standards from their national event manual?

You did not miss it, because it isn't there. The NA Hobie Class has has a tradition of "run as many as possible in a 5 day series" for as long as I can remember - certainly back to the provided boat days of the late 1980's.

The worlds is still in provided boats, and since they rotate after every race, the fatigue factor doesn't set in as much. The worlds has it's own "procedure manual" that's available upon request from the IHCA.

The most races I can remember after 5 days was 21 - that was the 2005 Hobie 17 NA's in Rehoboth.

I agree with Wouter (did I just say that???).

At the end of the day, we have to give the OA and especially the PRO some leverage to use their discretion. We are very careful who we choose to run these events, and no one gets to run a NAs without lots of experience, especially experience with our class.

Having said that, I would not be opposed to Bob's solution (4 per day), except that I would add a clause to allow one extra to make up or get ahead, to deal with Murphy. This would get the plan in writing, and everyone lives with it if the weather doesn't cooperate.

The majority of us racing in the Hobie classes don't want a planned lay day for the NAs. Nor do we want just two or three races per day, except maybe on the last day if we've gotten 4 in per day all week before that.

There's tons of other factors.

Mike

The problem is that we have given the PRO leverage and flexibility and it has been abused not just in Iowa but in RI as well. The "trust me" thing isn't going to work any more we need assurances and it needs to be in the NOR. I have confidence that this will happen.

I've already posted that I can live with a documented number of races per day in the NOR.

However, what happened in RI that could have been addressed by an NOR?

There was carnage on Day 1, but nothing that a limit on the number of races could have fixed.

As we learned in Tampa, a high wind limit cannot be easily determined by popular vote. On the low end of the wind, again, more issues of agreement (F18 event).

There have been several NAs where the conditions were such that 1/3 to 1/2 or more of the fleet was on the beach, yet races were continued to be started. Is this what you're trying to address? That would certainly take some creative writing, but is probably where one would have the most credibility with the "fair/unfair" concern.

"Fair/unfair" is a slippery slope. Deciding to run races or not can create feelings (justified or not, and 99.999% of the time, NOT justified) of favoritism. Like I said, lots of factors to be considered.

Mike

I don't think the question is fair or unfair. The question is fun or no fun. In RI we had six races on the last day in freezing rain. Three would have been fine. After three on that day it started to be no fun.

One of the goals in running a NAC in the 16 fleet is to "qualify" people for spots at the worlds. Worlds events are not usually sailed in "light air venue's"

The PRO should and probably does have that at the front of his mind as he is running the event.

I raced all 7 races that day, and during the 6th and 7th races, we were no longer competing, we were just "surviving". However, that was day three of the event and we only had two races in the bag for the first two days.

Knowing the wind cast for Thursday and Friday, I understood and agreed with PU's decision to run the 7 races even tho it was exceedingly hard on the competitors. Even tho I didn't enjoy those last two races, I do not feel that PU "abused" his authority.

I would be opposed to a set of sailing instructions that specifies a maximum number of races to be run on any given day unless it gives the PRO the flexibility to make adjustments that take into account unforseen circumstances.

We as a Class Association, or as the Organizing authority, select PRO's based on their wisdom and experience, Let the PRO do his job as he sees fit without trying to micro manage him based on personal preferences or feelings. If he abuses his power and authority at a particular event, take his name off of the list of potential PRO's for future events.

I believe there were 5 races the last day in R.I
The last started late in the day in the pouring rain with the Champion way ahead and parked next to the RC boat asking why run another race.
Over the last 10 years there has been a 14 race average for the 16's.
So the 4 race a day with a fifth added when the daily average drops below 3 would be good with me.
When looking at the champions over the years, I don't see anyone that didn't deserve to win.
The trick is to keep guys like me coming back. I go for the friends and fun and hope for some moments on the water to remember.
Also to hook the first timers into planning for the following year on their drive home.
It's a real shame to read Karl's comments.
From what I've heard no one was real happy about what happened.
Let's get it fixed without throwing stones.

No problems, only opportunities.

I forgot all about Day 5... I was sitting on a mark boat by that point in the week (damaged crew on the aforementioned Day 1). Once the rain started, I lost count of the races. Lori's radio calls were pretty "funny" when rain started coming out of the electrical outlets in my RV...

Anyway, we need to find a balance between what the sailors say they want, and giving the PRO flexibility to make good decisions. Sailing in the rain is never fun, but litigating every "what if" would quickly become insane.

Mike

Setting a schedule with a maximum number of races is the norm in most classes. The Hobie class has been the exception. It does not become insane. What we have now is insane.

As I said earlier I'm sure we will find a solution.

(LOL: I've already complained to the class Chairman. Sorry Chris)

And your crew has already made her opinion completely clear on this matter to the new Race Director / PRO of the next events. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was referring to trying to litigate "fun" not just the number of races.

There are several exceptions listed in this thread as to how many races to run per day, depending on the wind, cold, rain, day of the week, weather on the remaining days, etc.

Do we state in the SIs to run 4-5 if it is warm and sunny, fewer if not?

Again, I agree that something in writing could help. But, the experience of the PRO should help even more here. If there are examples where this isn't happening, there's only so much you can do with an NOR. The real answer seems to be to work with the PRO, or make a change in that position.

Mike

I did a little research on the history of # of races and # of races per day (when I could figure it out) of the H-16 North Americans over the last 11 years:

2008 - 2/0/7/5/1 = 15 total
2007 - ?/?/?/?/? = 18
2006 - 4/4/2/2/5 = 16
2005 - 16 in 4 days (rotations), then 3 in finals = 11 raced
2004 - 3/3/?/?/? = 13
2003 - = 13
2002 - = 10 (Mega)
2001 - = 14
2000 - 5/3/4/1/4 = 17
1999 - = 11
1998 - = 16

The average number of races / event is 14.00
7 races in one day is apparently unprecedented, at least in the 16's.

We really didn't need the last race in 2006 in RI. It was 64 degrees, pouring rain and it was my worst race of the day. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm good with 4 / 5 races a day (5 when you're behind schedule / nice day w/nice breeze).

Hi Matt
good info to know
But I still think a 45 minute race is too short for 75 boats.

Is their a huge consensus that a 45 minute race sort out the 75 boats by skill?
Asked anothe way... Is this the right number for a Hobie 16 race with that fleet size.?

If the races are too long and no positions are changing that's a waste of time. Conversely, if they are too short and luck and chance knock you back 5 or 10 places that you would have made up with a proper length race... that's bad as well.

Usually, you have longer races with larger fleets...Are you guys happy with the lenght? That would set the number of races per day as well.

Finally, a fixed number of races in the championship allows you to manage your risk in any race as you approach the end of the championship. Is this aspect of the game important to the 16 sailors?

In my opinion the course length has always been spot on at this event. That means long enough to make for a tactical beat (as in you can make more than two tacks), also long enough to avoid congestion at the windward mark. I think they tend to be more than 45 minutes. A fixed number of races would be nice but it's not at all critical.

I agree with Bob.

45 minutes is an example of the short end, typically they are more like 50-55 minutes (and it's amazing how consistent we can be). Anything longer than that just gets painful...

In my experience, no one races at the 16 events with a "managed risk" mentality. It's quite rare for the leader to sit out the last race.

Mike

Thanks Bob

It would seem that the class rank and file hasn't done much thinking about these issues.... at least recently.

Good luck getting a consensus in the fleet... It's hard to get cat sailors to focus and choose and the "just leave it up to the PRO guy" may be fine... but you don't have a lot of transparancy.

Hi, I don't usually post here, as I am afraid of you guys a little bit (I have lurked in some pretty heated discussions....)
Anyway, Bob has his point of setting a max number of races and whether or not thats a good idea for us, is yet to be seen or discussed among the Board of HCA and the RD. I would leave it to them, as they run the class (and always will)
BUT, I will say this: I sailed with my youngest son Jacob 9 years old and 75 lbs, who is usually a big sissy during any wind, and I loaded him up on pop tarts and pepsi throughout the 7 races that day, and I am a hack on my best day, but we did okay, and he actually had an awesome time the entire time we were out there. We stayed upright until the last upwind leg of the last race and even then he was laughing, yelling at me to hurry up and right the boat.
Hard to say whats right and wrong. Depends on if you ask Jacob or not......
Chris Wessels
New Whipping Boy, HCA

It's been a long time since we had 75 boats - and if we did, the fleet is usually split the first three days of the event.

2008 - Clear Lake, IA - 56 boats
2007 - Alameda, CA - 50 boats
2006 - Naragansett, RI - 56 boats
2005 - Ventura, CA - provided boats, 36 x 2 = 72 teams
2004 - Syracuse, NY - 71 boats, split fleets
2003 - Rehoboth, DE - 70 boats
2002 - Ft. Walton Bch, FL - 68 boats
2001 - Monterey, CA - 47 boats
2000 - Kingston, ON - 31 boats
1999 - Ft. Walton Bch, FL - 96 boats, split fleets
1998 - Rehoboth, DE - 63 boats

Mmmmmmm split fleets... another of the more contentious ideas.

Mike

I raced in Iowa too. And I listened to the weather report carefully which predicted that Wednesday (the 7 race day) was going to be much windier than Thursday. The forecast said that Wednesday was going to blow 15-20 with gusts to 30 (mph). On Thursday it was supposed to be 10-15 with gusts to 20. That being the case, I don't understand the excuse that PU thought Thursday's weather was going to be "dismal." Oh yeah, I was also told after the sailing on Wednesday that PU "lost count" of the number of races he'd run and thought he had only run 5. What a load of crap.
It has been my experience that PU is always on a power trip. I also remember doing 6 races on the last, and truly dismal, day of the 2006 NAs in RI. Having 4 as the maximum number of races makes the most sense, and I see absolutely no down side to it at all. We want to have the biggest number of competitors on the starting line as possible...everyone should feel welcome to NAs, and when we start losing sailors we need to fix it. At least 10 people told me they would think twice about coming to another North American after those 7 races on Wednesday. And Pat Bisesi is truly wise in his statement, "The Nationals should crown a champion and make everyone else feel like one." As far as I am concerned, that is the Hobie Way.
E. Cleveland

I raced in Iowa also.This was my first ever 16 nationals and I had a great time.I also agree that 7 races is just too many.When I came off the Lake I also lost track of the number of races and thought we only had 5.I would love to come to another nationals and if they have 7 races again so be it but if I had my preference 4 would suit me fine.

We just finished the 17/18/Tiger event in Harrison in august.... we put in the SI's 'maximum of 20 races will be run'... 3 days we had four, 1 day three and one day 5 races... we were fortunate to have windy conditions for the whole week.. double trapped every day for some parts of each race... also a few big holes of no wind in the water.. i found a few.. unfortunately we had rain everyday as well... except the sun came out for the awards banquet.. (and it's been shining ever since.... )
My point being.. 20 races over 5 days seemed like a good number.... but their should probably be a maximum of 5 races in a day... regardless of past/present/future weather conditions... 5 hours on the water without a break is plenty... and keeps most people able to race the next day.

That nite I literally crawled into the hot bathtub as the 7 races nearly crippled me due to a harness problem. Next day, wind was stronger and should have killed me, but no problem! I had the time of my life, and hope it can happen again on the next one. Some of us live for the punishment of 20+ wind days. My dear mother would just say, 'quit your whining!'

"5 hours on the water without a break is plenty..."

Just beat me to my next point (and this is meant to be forward-looking)...

As Matt has said, there are times when more than 5 races might be needed. Such as, Day 1 has no wind and only 1 race, Day 2 is perfect, and the forecast for Days 3-5 is a hurricane (or something along those lines).

So, the OA and PRO would probably want to run as many races as humanly possible on Day 2. But, if the NOR puts a mandate on 4-5 per day, you'd only get 6 races for the week.

However, if everyone knows going into it that 6-7 are preferred for Day 2, and a lunch break is used, that might be the best solution in that case.

So, we're back full circle. There's only so much you can litigate without unforseen negative consequences, because Mother Nature will not be tamed.

At the end of the day, we need to be able to rely on sound judgement from our PROs.

Of course, that judgement needs to include listening to the OA and Class reps, as we are trained by US SAILING to do.

Mike

I think sound judgement by the PRO is the way to go with some official guidence in the NOR.

There has to be room for changes depending on what Mother Nature throws at you. I recall running 6 races on Tuesday at the F18's in Carlyle. Great wind. Plenty of time to run it. Lot's of people bitched about the sixth race but the forecast for Wed. was 0-5mph so I wanted to get lots of racing in. As it turned out we did manage to get 3 races in on Wed. in drifter conditions. Then Thurs and Friday we had great wind with the last race being too much for most teams.

I think a maximum of 6 is fine with a goal of 4 a day with a lunch break. A maximum and goal of 19 total races for a 5 day event. Breakdown if the weather were perfect would be 4,4,4,4,3 with no races started after 2pm on Friday. However if you look at the forecast and it's a beautiful day on Monday put 5 races in.

Of course how many times have we headed to the beach to eat lunch when the conditions suddenly became perfect only to head back out after lunch and have the wind die or a storm roll in. You can't win. That's another good reason to have guidance for the PRO but not any hard and fast rules. That way with a good PRO he can anticipate the issues and perhaps run an extra race before lunch if it looks like the weather might turn bad.

At the N20 NA's this year we were worked over by the RC. He was running everyone else course 1's while we started first and got a course 2. We would finish and clean up things and fix problems and then the horn would blow for the next race. We didn't even have time for a potty break which we found a little tough. A 1/2 hour break after the second race would be nice if the conditions are under 15 knots. When it's over 15 knots I'd rather be racing or on shore. Sitting on the boat in more than 15 is hard work in itself.

The other problem is toward the end of the event a PRO doesn't feel like they can go in early if there isn't clear guidance to do so. The PRO doesn't want to show favortism toward any competitor so he will run races according to the schedule.

One nice thing if they leave you on the water for lunch would be to let folks know that you are breaking for a few minutes and post on the course board "LUNCH NEXT START 2:00PM" That way we all know what's going on. With the short 5 minute sequence we never get a chance to rest because we have to stay close around a lot of boats and be ready at a moments notice to start the race. If you put up a sign then first finishers might even go to the beach for a few minutes to take a break.

I think keeping it fun for everyone is a good goal. I don't think scaring people away from a Nationals is a good policy. We no longer have the numbers to support an attitude where we cater to the top teams. The Nationals needs to continue to draw numbers to stay finacially on solid ground. When you start getting 10 boats at a Nationals it becomes very hard to get anyone interested in hosting it.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005

Relying on the good judgement of the PRO is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. You cannot count on good judgement from the PRO. I have heard a PRO disparage people who didn't want to race as many races as possible. That is not what Hobie racing should be about. The only way to ensure that the system is not abused is to put a maximum number of races into the NOR and SIs. For people (and PROs) who want more races, they can hold extra "fun" races for bottles of rum or something like that.
E. Cleveland

It's pretty obvious you have an axe to grind with PU, Liza.

Get over it. He's not going to be running Hobie 16 NA's again. I will - at least next year. I've heard your concerns, as well as Mike's (since I was the PRO at the event mentioned above) and will take them into consideration when running future events.

I also think it's time you sat in the hot seat once in a while. You should take the US Sailing courses and become a certified race officer - you certainly have an opinion of what a good one should be.

That's not exactly a fair comment. Each person contributes to the class in their own way and Liza's has been significant as Membership Chair for two years. You can't support an argument that denies someone the right to have an opinion and you can't blow off every criticism as having an axe to grind.
At any rate I think we have beaten this to death. It's time to see something happen.

When all else fails blame the messenger.

Lets play nice kids.
It sounds like most if not all other classes have set limits.
All sports have some duration (Innings, quarters, time, points).
I would hope our new regime will look at the constructive ideas and set some rules.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think an event becomes better because 6 or 7 races are done in a day regardless of the following days forecast.
You know who wins after 6 races?.... You know who wins after 16 races?
Someone really good.

Keeping the nightly social events fun is as big a part of a successful event as the racing. IMO of course.