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Where have all the 18HTs gone?

Posted By: ejpoulsen

Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/06/08 08:25 PM

Seems like there was about 30 in the US as one point--where's they all go? Are there any active 18HT fleets?
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/06/08 08:29 PM

Well,

#6 is now a Frankencat.

PM for Bill Vining's email as he probably has tracked most of them.

Jim.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/06/08 08:58 PM

They are still around. When the class cratered, most of the boats got sold at a discount. Some got sold to guys that dont race them, some are sitting waiting to be used again, some are unaccounted for. Most of them on the east coast, 1-NH, 3-CT, 2-NY, 2-RI, 1-PA,1-FL, Couple in VA. One is still in Chicago.

There are no active fleets.

Why do you ask?
Posted By: claus

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/06/08 09:32 PM

The girls have picked them ev'ry one.
Posted By: roccats

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/06/08 10:53 PM

I have a jav2 that I purchased down in MD and now keep in Rochester NY
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 12:01 AM

Send me a pm with your sail number and contact info.

We might have to get the band back together.
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 12:03 AM

Quote
The girls have picked them ev'ry one.


????
Posted By: hokie

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 12:38 AM

Where have all the flowers gone

Quote
Quote
The girls have picked them ev'ry one.


????
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 12:53 AM

...When will they ever learn, when will they evvvver learn?

It was a hippy-folk type war protest song a long time ago, I think. Oh but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

(from another hippy song)

Someone got some Dylan we can listen to? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The answer my friends, is blowing in the wind... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FasterDamnit

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 01:13 AM

Jeremiah was a bullfrog...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Dan_Delave

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 03:12 AM

I think I was at that concert. If it is the same one then not mentioned were Steppenwolf and Three Dog Night.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 03:30 AM

I keep #12 on Lake Coeur d' Alene in northern ID. It's kinda lonley there, mostly a few H16s for company. Heard an FX One arrived this fall but haven't seen it yet. I've got a couple more weeks til the season sadly ends here. Then I'll have to content myself with implementing more of Bill's tweaks. Love the boat!

Dave
Posted By: PTP

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 05:31 AM

#5 and one more (can't remember the number) near Pensaola.. mast up, same place on the water too!
Posted By: Catfan

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 07:34 AM

There are/were more than 50 Javelin 2 F18HT in the US.
The first was shipped in January 200l to race the Tradewind Regatta. The latest 24 in early 2003 to compete in the Worrell 1000. The others in between
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 09:03 AM



Quote

There are/were more than 50 Javelin 2 F18HT in the US.



This was claimed often by one particular source (mostly you and W.F.) but the fraternaty of beach cat builders tell a different story. At one time, it was claimed also that 50 Jav's 16 were on order/build when the Jav 16 had only been launched 2 months or so. The same source said that many were going to the USA and make F16 life very difficlt. Even back then we discarded that claim as being given by a lunatic.

I dare say on record right here that I don't believe for one second that there are 50 F18HT's in north America (USA, Canada and Mexico). I have never found the proof for that, builders deny it and in race results we only seen about 10 to 15 boats appear (all together only 2 times). I put the real number of imported boats much closer to 25. A good number of them (Alter cup boats) remained unsold in W.F. garden for very long times.

It was all just one big hype much like the investment banks stock market is right now. Looked good on paper but the real presence was highly overleveraged. This allowed the class to vanish in a rediculously short timeframe after it hit a snag.

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 09:14 AM

Wouter,

if I buy you this book as a gift, will you read it?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Anyone-...0623&sr=8-1

Please dont drag the F16s into discussions like this. It only makes us look bad, and to no benefit for anybody.
Posted By: Catfan

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 11:33 AM

Trust me or not in the US, Canada and Mexico there are (or there were) more than 50 Javelin 2.
I do know for sure of 3 boats which suffered major damages (ashore, sailing or travelling).
However I don't know if a few of them are still unsold in WF's garden.
For sure by the end of 2001 13 Javelin 2 were shipped to the US and at least the same number by the end of 2002.
Add the 24 shipped for the Worrell 1000 (if you remember the USD 5,000 registration fee include the rent of a new boat for the race)
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 01:59 PM

The 24 boats never showed up for the W1000 in 2003, which would make it only 20-something 18HT's in North America.
Posted By: Catfan

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 02:14 PM

The 40' container with the Alter Cup boats left Italy in December 2002. A second 40' container left in early February 2003.
While I am sure that the Alter Cup boats materialized (the race was regularly sailed) I do not know about the fate of the others
I hope this help to clarify the situation
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 02:53 PM

Timbo,

Since you survived the 70's (I love that Geico commercial related to that... "Pow!"), how did you deal with all that polyester chaffing?

And did those gold chains get tangled in your chest hair dreadlocks?

I honestly don't know which is worse in terms of fashion disasters:
- Polyester 70's
- "Miami Vice" & penny loafers 80's
- Chino's 90's
- "Metro-sexual" 00's
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 03:45 PM

The boats were not there for the W1000 in 2003, and the race was not held. I know that for a fact, I was one of the paid entries for the race that didn't happen. David and I did go on to race the T500 that year in it's place. The 2002 W1000 was the last W1000 held.

Attached picture 159902-t500-lamorak.jpg
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 04:50 PM

Wouter you are such a jackass, you have no idea of how many HT's there are in the US.
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 05:06 PM

39 documented sail numbers and boat owners.

REGULAR MEMBER BROWNING GALE ANNAPOLIS MD USA-1
REGULAR MEMBER OLIVER W.F. VA BEACH VA USA-3
REGULAR MEMBER DIAMOND JAMIE COLUMBUS OH USA-4
REGULAR MEMBER NEWKIRK KIRK PENSACOLA FL USA-5
REGULAR MEMBER BROWN CHRIS LABONON PA USA-6
REGULAR MEMBER SMYTH RANDY FT WALTON BCH FL USA-7
REGULAR MEMBER COGAN PETER DARIEN CT USA-8
REGULAR MEMBER LYTLE BOB JACKSONVILLE FL USA-9
REGULAR MEMBER MARSHACK KEN FAIRVIEW OR USA-10
REGULAR MEMBER SNEED JASON DESTIN FL USA-11
REGULAR MEMBER CUNNINGHAM DAVID CHICAGO IL USA-12
REGULAR MEMBER STOOKEY HUNT PORTSMOUTH RI USA-14
REGULAR MEMBER PICHE STEVE AUSTIN TX USA-15
REGULAR MEMBER LAMBERT BRIAN FT WALTON BCH FL USA-16
REGULAR MEMBER NOVAKOFF JIM HOUSTON TX USA-17
REGULAR MEMBER KIRBY DOUG ANNAPOLIS MD USA-18
REGULAR MEMBER BECKWITH TIFFANY SAN ANTONIO TX USA-20
REGULAR MEMBER LIVINGSTON KIRK HOUSTON TX USA-21
REGULAR MEMBER VINING BILL WALLINGFORD CT USA-22
REGULAR MEMBER COMUNALE AMANDA AKRON OH USA-23
REGULAR MEMBER KRANTZ MICHAEL FLOWERY BRANCH GA USA-24
REGULAR MEMBER STUART BERND OK USA-25
REGULAR MEMBER PETERS JERRY RICHMOND VA USA-26
REGULAR MEMBER SUNNUCKS WILLIAM UK USA-27
REGULAR MEMBER HERTZ DAVID EMPORIA VA USA-28
REGULAR MEMBER BOYLE STEPHEN CHARLOTTE NC USA-29
REGULAR MEMBER CONFIDENTIAL USA-30
REGULAR MEMBER SONNAKLAR JAY MIAMI FL USA-31
REGULAR MEMBER TEYSSIER CARL SAN DIEGO CA USA-32
REGULAR MEMBER MOORE FRANK PITTSBURG PA USA-33
REGULAR MEMBER GONZALAS TOMMY BRISTOL RI USA-34
REGULAR MEMBER CONFIDENTIAL (OWNED BY SAME PERSON AS USA-30) USA-35
REGULAR MEMBER JOHNSTONE PETER NEWPORT RI USA-45
REGULAR MEMBER MELLO DENNIS CT USA-70
REGULAR MEMBER BASNIGHT JIM CHESAPEAKE VA USA-71
REGULAR MEMBER PIGGIN HUGH FT LAUDERDALE FL USA-72
REGULAR MEMBER SINCLAIR JAMES NY NY USA-73
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 05:11 PM

Quote
I put the real number of imported boats much closer to 25.


There are at least 39 boats in the US.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 05:21 PM

Hi Bill -

I don't mean to step into this mess and I don't have any sort of beef with the class. I think, though, that at least one of the owners on your list never actually got a boat, though he paid for one. Maybe the class list isn't 100% accurate? Not trying to stir up trouble - in fact, I'm not really sure why Wouter cares...
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 05:32 PM

Thanks for pointing that out John. I didnt create that list, and I'm not sure exactly where it came from, it probably came from WF.

But the question that was being debated was "how many HT's are there in the US." I believe the number is at least 39, and its possible that its close the number that Catfan quoted.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 08:08 PM

Quote
Wouter you are such a jackass, you have no idea of how many HT's there are in the US.


YYYAAAAAAYYYYYYYY BILL!!!!!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 08:47 PM


Quote

REGULAR MEMBER SUNNUCKS WILLIAM UK USA-27



Will Sunnucks owns a HT ?

Is that the same Will Sunnucks that is a UK sailor that came over for the Tybee 500, "chartered" a HT and afterwards said it was of the worst boats to do distance races on and would never do so again ?

Smyth never owned his own boat; I'm sure that he has his own sailnumber but the boat is probably now recycled into a new owner and new sailnumber.

That and other stuff.

It is just like Wall Street Finance, **** the books is not hard, coming up with concrete results to proof these numbers when the game is up is the hard part. Like the other poster says, there are some Worrell crews still waiting for the delivery of their boat.

Personally, I find it very strange that 50 sailors of the fame of Peter Cogan, Randy Smyth, Marshack, Lambert, Mike Krantz and Jay Sonneklar would (still) own a HT and be a class member for the last 5 years AND NEVER RACE IT. We do see them regulary on A-cats, F18's and I-20's though.

Come to think of it, for 50 boats sold in the USA we do see surprisingly little of them pop up in race results.

But hey ! Don't take my word for it. Believe what you want to believe.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 08:51 PM

Bill,

Through my network of contacts which does indeed included many class organisors and builders alike I learned of legal dealings specifying the number of boats (of different make) delivered and of amounts of money left unpaid.

The number is much closer to 25 then 50. Sorry.

I won't specify or proof anything beyond this point as that will serve no purpose.

The main point of my postings was that one particular chain of sources is pretty unreliable. Hell, I was beating that message home as early as 2001 when the whole HT debacle began.

Many would like to think that I'm unreliable, wise people'll know better by now.

Wouter
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/07/08 09:01 PM

Wouter.

The boat is/was William's.
Posted By: tami

G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/07/08 09:17 PM

Smyth DID own his own boat.

Here's a piccie of him racing it:
[Linked Image]

It now belongs to Tommy Granger.

I know of at least three, not counting the ex-Smyth boat, in the central Gulf (LA/MS/AL).

Voutah, do please let it go...
Posted By: John Williams

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/07/08 09:37 PM

Tami's right, Wout. Let it go. There simply isn't any value in being right or wrong on this one, and the feelings (five years ago or not) are still raw. Ease up, pick another topic.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

settle down. - 10/07/08 11:07 PM

There is almost nobody racing the FXone, I know one dealer sold 10 of them last year, and the Hobie U.S. warehouse seems to be always out of them. Not the same thing, but alot of people buy boats to sail recreationally that don't really make that great of a rec boat.
Posted By: USA197

Re: settle down. - 10/07/08 11:10 PM

Not that anyone cares, but Ken Marshack did buy a Bimare 18HT. I assembled it with him in Virginia Beach. He brought it home to Oregon, and sold it used to Jon Nilan from the Seattle area. He showed up to a few regattas and raced it as an A cat (Jon weighs approximately 350 pounds and we let him have fun with us). He hasn't raced it in the last two years that I know of. I saw him two weeks ago and he was close to selling the boat to somebody from the Seattle area.

Eric Marshack
Posted By: jdaf31r

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/08/08 01:35 AM

REGULAR MEMBER LAMBERT BRIAN FT WALTON BCH FL USA-16

USA 16 owned now by Jon Alvord in NH. I don't race it, just use it for weekly sailing on a 3milex1/4 mile lake. Pretty pathetic use for it but it is so fun for one person in 15kt's!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 08:28 AM



No feelings,

I'm just conveying what I know.

But I have no interest in continueing a fight. Believe all you guys want. I for one have very serious doubts that a number close to 50 was ever shipped to the USA.

That will be all.

Wouter
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 12:11 PM

Quote
I'm just conveying what I know.


Wouter, you dont know dick, you are making assumptions based on you were able to see in race results. That is the most arrogant and ridiculous thing you've ever said.

And you have no idea who owned what and when.

Since that list was compiled, most of those owners have sold there boats, and the new owners dont race them, and I've lost track of who owns them now.
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/08/08 12:25 PM

Quote
Personally, I find it very strange that 50 sailors of the fame of Peter Cogan, Randy Smyth, Marshack, Lambert, Mike Krantz and Jay Sonneklar would (still) own a HT and be a class member for the last 5 years AND NEVER RACE IT


Ok, Wouter, I will go slow for you here.

1. That list is OLD.
2. The boats have been RESOLD.
3. The boats didnt evaporate, they still exist and are most likely still in the USA.
4. The class hasnt had any official US business in the last 4 years.
5. You are still a jackass.

Obviously the names on that list are not current HT class members. I posted it as a point of reference on how many HT's there are (where) in the US at a point in time.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 12:32 PM

Quote
Since that list was compiled, most of those owners have sold there boats, and the new owners dont race them, and I've lost track of who owns them now.
Stu told me he recently sold #25 to a Tulsa local who "didn't have a clue what he was getting in to" and reminisced of "the fastest boat he's ever sailed".
Posted By: CraigO

What Happened to.......... - 10/08/08 12:53 PM

WF Oliver, after the Worrell thing, and growing the class he seemed to disappear. Does he still sail??
Posted By: tami

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/08/08 01:02 PM

regarding the Granger (ex-Smyth) HT:

Tommy, ever the modification genius, has spent these last few years doing some kewl stuff to his HT. He's redone the beams and canted the hulls, and prolly done lots of other stuff that I can't remember offhand. He's also painted it a very kewl lime green.

You will likely be seeing it racing before too long - he and the Master FiberGenius Dub (Tommy's dad) have been creating an absolutely wild modified Stiletto which has distracted from the HT project.

If my boat is any indication, these two boats should just be the absolute [censored]!

The other three HT: Mark Ederer has one and races it rather occasionally, and there are two in a secret place in a secret state - if I told y'all where they were I'd have to kill all of y'all.
Posted By: bvining

Re: What Happened to.......... - 10/08/08 01:17 PM

Quote
he seemed to disappear.


Wouter has him tied up in his basement.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What Happened to.......... - 10/08/08 01:38 PM

I doubt the dutch have a lot of basements... being below sea level and all!

The elephant in the room is your total avoidance of the central issue... eg.. the total and rapid collapse of the class (people) ... Not the where is waldo game of who has an HT hidden in a garage.

How did the group of sailors who liked that boat disolve?

What happened?

Why?

Most of those guys are still racing cats in other classes!

Was the Mike Worrell Bimare decision to use the 18HT, a boat optimized for buoy racing, in a 1000 mile ocean race the major reason?

Why would that be... The boat is round the can racer. Why did the racing class disolve?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 02:05 PM


Bill,

Quote

you are making assumptions based on you were able to see in race results.


Something wrong with your eyes. I wrote up "legal papers" as well and also builder comments (three guesses which builder that might be)

Wouter
Posted By: bvining

Re: What Happened to.......... - 10/08/08 02:46 PM

Quote
I doubt the dutch have a lot of basements


That was a lame attempt at humor. I havent talked to WF, he stopped communicating with me and others after the Worrell fiasco. I've since heard he had health problems and financial problems, but thats second hand.

Quote
The elephant in the room is your total avoidance of the central issue


The title of the thread was "What happened to all the HTs?" and thats the question I thought we were discussing. I'm pretty direct and wasnt trying to avoid anything, so if you want my opinion, I can offer it.

Quote
What happened?


I assume you mean "What happened to the class." It stopped operating because the people behind it made a decision to stop organizing it. WF was the original driving force behind the class, he was the importer, owned the website, owned the class trailer and the main promoter of the class. WF was the one who worked with Mike Worrell to get the HT selected for the Worrell 1000. WF convinced Bimare into sending 12 boats for the Alter Cup that were supposed to be later used for the Worrell.

There was a small group of HT owners that started stepping in to take on and take some of the responsibilites from WF about the time the Worrell was supposed to happen. We had regular meetings and started to organize the class, the rules and the racing schedule.

Once it became obvious to us that WF's dealings with Mike Worrell and Bimare had soured, and would cause too much of a distraction, we decided to stop our efforts to move the class forward. WF stopped communicating with us, he let the website lapse and that was the end of it.

Personally I do believe the HT is a great round the cans racer and was(is) a horrible choice for a distance race like the Worrell.

If the class had not gotten involved in the Worrell, it would have grown organically and probably been intact today. Most of the guys that bought the boat to train for the Worrell sold them shortly after it became obvious that the race wasnt going to happen.
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: What Happened to.......... - 10/08/08 02:56 PM

Everyone keeps ending up on Hobie 16's again.

What was old is new again.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
http://hobiedivision2.com/Results/40results.pdf
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 03:05 PM

Hey Wouter,

Good news, I've been getting emails all morning from HT owners that want to get together and race.
Posted By: Jalani

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 03:41 PM

How many have you had Bill?

I always thought the 18HT was a cool boat. John_P built a Stealth 18HT that looked and sailed superb and I think he's still got the moulds. Do you think the 18HT Class could be revived? (As in class association, racing circuit, nationals, new boat sales etc.)

Surely there must be a market for a lightweight, medium-tech 18 footer?
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 03:57 PM

Emails?

4 this morning.

The HT class could be easily restarted in the US. Its alive and well in Switerland.

If someone wants to organize a race or a series of races, I will help in getting it organized.

As far as getting new boats, you could call Bimare, they would probably make you one. The issue is that they are now going to be expensive as compared to a F18 because of the change in value of the dollar vs the euro and the cost increases in Carbon masts. I doubt anyone is going to sign up for a new HT given that most of the racing seems to be going to the F18 even if the cost isnt the issue.

"Do I think the class could be revived?" Yes, but I dont think it would be a good idea. HT's are going to be expensive as compared to F18's and F16's, so attracting new owners is going to be tough. Plus the racing crowd has all moved on, so getting racing mass back into the boat would be tough.

Do I think it would be fun to have reunion regatta for all the new owners? Yes, and I would help getting this organized.

Do I think the class should be re-started - no.

Bill
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 04:16 PM

Ey Bill, you are doing anti-promotion. The 18HT is a cool concept. So what if the F18 is the class where the racing is today. That dont mean there will not be enough interest in the 18HT to keep a class going.

If the exchange rate is really bad, boats can be built in the US, even homebuilding is possible.

Would not cost much time and money to set up a website and e-mail group for those interested.

The problem is not the number of boats or other classes, it is getting the right persons to get things going and keep them going.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 04:18 PM

I always thought the 18HT would be an ideal single hander if it was widened to 10 or 12 feet; Kinda more modern 18Sq; add T foils as well and it would be a scream, up to a point and then it would get very scary in the big stuff!
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 04:52 PM

I widened mine and single hand it all the time.

Its a blast.
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 05:13 PM

Quote
Bill, you are doing anti-promotion.


The class is dead in the US as far as I'm concerned, so I wasnt trying to be pro or con, I was just giving my opinion.

One of the reasons I wouldnt want to revive the HT class is the rule set is too structured. The class needs to be way more open, more of a development class. When the HT rule set was being debated with the Europeans, I felt that we ended up with too many rules and got away from what I felt was a more open rule set mentality. We talked about being a open/development class, but ended up with too many rules. Wouter actually used that arguement against us a number of times. He had a point.

If the HT class were to be restarted in the US, the first change that I would advocate would be to skinny the rule set down and allow for at least an 8'6" width. Limiting the width based on the European road width limit never appealed to me. I widened my HT to 8'6" and its a better boat.

So, no I'm not trying to promote the HT class.
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 05:49 PM

Okay, I started this thread, so let me be clear:

I was asking where the 18HT boats are now. (I have no questions or interest about the class collapse, Worrell, former boat owners, broken contracts, etc.) No red-blooded cat sailor can deny that these are intriguing boats.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 05:54 PM

It must be a rocket, wide and single handed!
Posted By: CraigO

Re: What Happened to.......... - 10/08/08 06:01 PM

I thought Wouter had his finger plugging up a dike somewhere........
Posted By: Jalani

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 06:05 PM

I'd love to see a worldwide 18HT class. I accept it'll probably never happen. but it would be cool to at least have 'pockets' of 18HTs around the world. I'd imagine that if the same level of development went into them as goes into the current F18s we'd be seeing them up there boat-for-boat with the I20s etc.

Bill, if you're getting a genuine resurgence in interest in the class in the US and you all agree that the rules should be tweaked, why don't you do it? You could be on to the beginning of something great......
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 06:29 PM

Quote
I widened mine and single hand it all the time.

Its a blast.


I think we've talked about this before; got any pictures?
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 06:37 PM

Yes, we did.

Here.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;amp;page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

I need to go collect her from the beach, I will take more pictures before I dismantle her for the season.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 07:23 PM

Quote


So, no I'm not trying to promote the HT class.


Just trying to rattle your cage Bill, hoping something good for the 18HT comes out of it. I agree with Jalani, thats why, but I should not try to push it. Sorry.
Posted By: I20RI

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 08:57 PM

There is gonna be at least one HT at the Buzzelli Multihull legacy regatta in sarasota the 17-19th. I'll be sailing it with Mark Murray. It's a great boat once you figure it out and when sailed well hangs with the I20's just fine.
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 09:18 PM

And Mr Murray is fast. Have fun, tell Mark I send my best.
Posted By: fin.

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 09:39 PM

Quote
There is gonna be at least one HT at the Buzzelli Multihull legacy regatta in sarasota the 17-19th. I'll be sailing it with Mark Murray. It's a great boat once you figure it out and when sailed well hangs with the I20's just fine.


I'll be there with the Blade. Are you guys gonna do the open water thing on Friday?
Posted By: PTP

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/08/08 10:04 PM

sweet. I hope you guys do well. I raced with Mark a decent amount a year ago or so. I love sailing with him on the HT when the wind is up.... always seems to have things under control.
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 12:29 AM

Quote
How many have you had Bill?

I always thought the 18HT was a cool boat. John_P built a Stealth 18HT that looked and sailed superb and I think he's still got the moulds. Do you think the 18HT Class could be revived? (As in class association, racing circuit, nationals, new boat sales etc.)

Surely there must be a market for a lightweight, medium-tech 18 footer?


Pic of one of JP's F18HT Berserka's

http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.geocities.com/stealthmarine2002/cal20low.JPG

Cheshirecatman
Posted By: Jalani

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 01:48 AM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Wouter

Re: What Happened to.......... - 10/09/08 09:42 AM


Quote

and financial problems, but thats second hand



I got first hand info from the parties who are (still) the plaintiffs.

Now I'm not saying that things happened this way intentionally, just that at one point no more boats were ever going to be shipped to him even if the builders were offered "what ever price" for their products ... (connect the dots yourself).


But Bill is right, it is better to focus on the initial questions.

Personally, I feel the HT class suffered very badly from over dependence on a single person and the total lost of trust in the class due to all the issues that surfaced at the time of the last planned Worrell 1000. It collapsed like the stock market is doing now; lost of trust meant that even good assets were regarded as devoid of value. The class has a problem right now that no boats are locally made or imported. The latter will not be corrected anytime soon with the US$ having taken a dive over the last few years and some builders having been burned.

Still, I'm sure the class can be revived if some volunteers set themselves to it. But like Bill says the boat has strong points and some serious weakpoints. The newer HT designs in Europe have gone some way in correcting these but these won't be making it to the USA. The US bim HT's (Jav-2's) is not a distance racer, the rearbeam slaps in chop, simple (italian) stuff like shackles break, it has got a mediocre rudder (kickup) system and it has bows that are easily overpowered (mainly lacks freeboard here). The newer HT's (in EU) are still not much of a Texel, Tybee, Worrell like distance racer but all other issues have been adressed. I must add here that Andreas does Texel with his HT's and does well indeed, but the numbers are simply against him especially when there are only short upwind legs and lots of wind.

With the spread in HT's over the nation I don't see much US HT's class racing getting of the ground, especially with the total number of imported boats. However, the boat is a capable open class bouy race in light winds and can be restarted that way. Will take alot of effort of a group of volunteers as they first have to live down the bad rep, but it can be done !

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 09:44 AM



Quote

Good news, I've been getting emails all morning from HT owners that want to get together and race.



Well, go for it !

You guys won't be getting many more chances to kick start the class again in the future !

Cast the iron when it is hot !

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 09:49 AM



Ehh Rolf,

A boat with these specs (especially mast height) absolutely NEEDS to have a carbon mast; an item that is very expensive in the USA for any homebuilder. Even Nacra has been replacing the carbon mast on their F17's and also I-20's with aly because of prohibitive high costs.

This is a serious drawback of the HT concept and class when it comes down to the USA.

Wouter
Posted By: Catfan

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 10:00 AM

The latest with regard with the activity of the 18HT class in Europe.
The Euro 2008 was sailed in Porto Corsini near Ravanna (Italy).
23 teams from 3 countries (Italy, Switzerland and Poland)
competed.
It was dominated by the BIMARE X-2 which got the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th place. The second was Andy Lutz on an Eagle 18HT. There were also Ventilos and Mattias.
For results and photos have a look at:
http://www.18ht.ch/results.html
and
http://open.bst.ch/ALutz/ost/galleries/Euro08/Highlights/WWW/index.html

The BIMARE X-2 is on sale at EUR 16,000 (a quotation lower than the one of the most F18is). Ventilos and Mattias are more expensive and the Eagle is the most expensive of all (not far from EUR 20,000).
With regard to the PN:
in 2003 the Javelin 2 was given the same PN of the I20

P.S.
For jpoulsen check yr post. Is is too full to receive new private messages
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 11:20 AM

Quote


Ehh Rolf,

A boat with these specs (especially mast height) absolutely NEEDS to have a carbon mast; an item that is very expensive in the USA for any homebuilder. Even Nacra has been replacing the carbon mast on their F17's and also I-20's with aly because of prohibitive high costs.

This is a serious drawback of the HT concept and class when it comes down to the USA.



Carbon schmarbon..

Yes a carbon mast makes sense. Yes it costs money. Yes it costs more than an alu extrusion. Who knows what will happen with carbon fiber prices in the future. People are still building and buying A-cats with carbon masts so it is not unobtainable. There are even one-offs with carbon masts becouse they are the boats somebody really wants. Homebuilding masts have been done for all kind of boats up to 60foot trimarans. Carbon can be sourced at affordable prices, we just bought 36kgs of 400gsm weave and uni for US$1900 (I am going to protect and tend to that source). Who cares about all this if they have locked their sights on the 18HT.
I think the 18HT can still be an active class with a good future in the USA, just takes that one person who gets things started. I am certainly not going to step out in front of things and proclaim why any initatives are doomed and point out why repeatedly. No class needs or deserves that. Instead I am going to cheer any initatives that gets more cats on the water.
Posted By: I20RI

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 03:17 PM

I am not getting in from RI until friday afternoon so unless Mark finds another crew for that day (or wants to do it himself) we wont be doing the distance race, see you there!
Posted By: jdaf31r

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/09/08 05:10 PM

Quote
I widened mine and single hand it all the time.

Its a blast.


I havent widened mine and sail it all summer single and double handed.
Posted By: alutz

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/10/08 12:08 PM

Quote
I think the 18HT can still be an active class with a good future in the USA, just takes that one person who gets things started.


Thanks Rolf!

If someone is interested to do that, just mail me, I'm glad if I can help!
Here in southern/central Europe, the class is definitly progressing (slowly but steady).
And we have two nice little regatta circuits (one in Italy and one in Switzerland) with a good participation of HTs

all the best
Posted By: BrianK

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/10/08 03:09 PM

Woot,

You are indeed correct on all points. Please keep explaining things to these morons until they finally get it. I know you've been trying for years, but dont worry, it took W almost 8 to straighten us out, so hang in there.
Posted By: Phaedrus

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/10/08 03:14 PM

how wide did you make it?
Posted By: fin.

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/10/08 07:35 PM

Quote
Woot,

You are indeed correct on all points. Please keep explaining things to these morons until they finally get it. I know you've been trying for years, but dont worry, it took W almost 8 to straighten us out, so hang in there.


That sounds political. . .
Posted By: Will_R

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/10/08 07:39 PM

Quote
That sounds political. . .


Ya think?!?!??!?!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/10/08 10:12 PM

Quote


Ehh Rolf,

A boat with these specs (especially mast height) absolutely NEEDS to have a carbon mast; an item that is very expensive in the USA for any homebuilder. Even Nacra has been replacing the carbon mast on their F17's and also I-20's with aly because of prohibitive high costs.

This is a serious drawback of the HT concept and class when it comes down to the USA.

Wouter


Hey wouter,
Since you seem to have the inside scoop on All that is catamarans, how 'bout tellin' me how many aluminum masted I-20s there are in Europe? How 'bout the US of A? And when did this Nacra switch to "aly" happen?
Inquiring minds wanna know.

Todd
"Seppo,Gringo,Infidel,Extraordinaire"
Posted By: BrianK

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/11/08 12:42 PM

Quote
Quote
Woot,

You are indeed correct on all points. Please keep explaining things to these morons until they finally get it. I know you've been trying for years, but dont worry, it took W almost 8 to straighten us out, so hang in there.


That sounds political. . .


Really wasn't meant to be, he was the first one that came to mind for Woot comparison. Where ya been Pete?
Posted By: fin.

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/11/08 01:44 PM

Hiding from Ding.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/11/08 09:28 PM

I thought Johny Lovel and Charlie Olgoltree had one that he raced in the "Little America's Cup" and also Pete Johnstone had one that he pimped and painted silver metal flake or something.

I always liked the boat, it was very demanding in a blow and had no business being out in the open ocean in big waves and wind, of a Worrell type race, but in a bay or lake in a good blow it was great fun.

Since the Jav 2 there have been many new F18HT designs that have addressed the submarine bow syndrom. You should check out Andi's web site, he has pictures of most of the new designs.

Oh and It's faster than an Inter 20 unless you take it out in the big ocean waves.

I crewed for Andi one night in Switzerland in a local regatta, we finished in front of a pretty good Tornado team, boat for boat. But it was ideal HT conditions, where we could fly the hull most of the time and they only half the time.

It is a demanding boat to sail well, like a big A cat with a spinnaker.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/12/08 09:45 AM



Allow me to correct describe the situation. The F17 carbon mast has been replaced and over the years there have efforts to do the same with the I-20 mast. However, the latter is NOT a done-deal at this time.

In Europe I've seen only a handful of alu masted I-20's, but these were all try-outs as far as I can determine. It is common knowlegde however that the I-20 carbon masts are ludicrously expensive to replace when broken. Luckily they hardly ever break. Quotes seem to run well above 5000 bucks both in US$ and Euro's. I seem to remember quotes around 7000 bucks even, but that is from memory. I'm not sure why the retail prices are such.

Wouter
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/12/08 04:10 PM

I have never seen an ali mast on an I-20. There was never an option from Performance Europe. Any that any that there are would have been retro-fit replacements. I can't remember what I paid for my replacement - about £2000 I think.
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/13/08 12:15 PM

I heard i20 mast price is $11k in the US.

What's a new i20 cost?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 11:02 AM

I have heard rumors that a brand new I 20 is about $19,000, boat and sails only, no trailer, or box, or beach wheels, which will add another $2,000 or so...

If $11,000 of that is just the mast, then you are getting a pretty good deal on all the rest of the parts and sails! Maybe we should just buy them new, without the mast, for $8,000, and sell all the new parts, sails and hulls on Ebay for $10,000!

OR, buy a new alum. wing mast for $3,000, rig it up and go to an INter 20 regatta, get Alex and Nigel to sail it, kick everyone's butt, and watch the price drop on those $11,000 masts! Now that would be funny!
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 12:11 PM

Timbo, I believe the price is closer to $24k new. I believe thats what I heard last time this topic came up.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 12:21 PM

It is $19,600 from my old dealer, but I don't think that includes the trailer and a box?

http://www.kolius-sailing.com/boats.cfm?p=6960&g=1&b=43

Doug
Posted By: Timbo

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 12:38 PM

$24K?? Ouch! No wonder nobody's buying them...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 03:25 PM

Can they make a carbon wing-mast for it? At the price they rumor for a mast, might as well upgrade...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 03:41 PM

The carbon wing masts that the Jav 2 came with were very nice, but since Boeing and Airbus are buying up all the carbon they can get to build new airplanes, I doubt it would be much cheaper, if at all, to do a new section in carbon. Until supply catches up with demand, it's going to keep getting more expensive for a -carbon- anything.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 03:46 PM

The latest rumor I heard from a very reputable source who is extremely involved in the class and manufacturing of the boats is that they might be looking into the marstrom Tornado mast.

Yes its shorter but something is going to have to change if the class is to survive. $11k masts == no new boats... Simple as that.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 04:15 PM

So what would you say is the maximum realistic USD asking price for a new boat - 20 ft, 18 ft, 16 ft? No trailer, boxes, wheels, etc.

I'd love to see $12K max for new boat, but I'd think $15k is an acheivable goal for mfg. companies given the technology (and carbon) in today's boats, right?

At the $15k mark, I wouldn't expect a lot of mfg. sponsorships, marketing, etc. Keep it cost-effective to own and support your product - that should keep owners doing the marketing for you...

We all want to be rock stars like FoN "Mr. Alicante", but the reality is that for most of us, this is just another expensive hobby. The higher the price tag, the fewer of us can enter the fray...

Things like Alter Cup are great in that they place a number of lightly used (and professionally tuned) boats on the market at decent prices, but you really can't ask mfg. to do more than that. They have to eat too, you know...
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 04:21 PM

I must say that I am a bit surprised to read that some are considering going to Marstrøm to save money. Marstrøm is usually pretty expensive, building in Sweden, high quality etc. so this is surprising.

Hope they approach Marstrøm the right way as Gøran himself is very attached to the Tornado class and I think he do those masts without making a lot of money from them.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 06:38 PM

We all want to be rock stars like FoN "Mr. Alicante",

And I've already got my Rock Star name picked out, it's "Mr. Ala Carte" Yeah, I'll have the pie, AND the cake!
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 07:41 PM

Guys, 11k for a carbon mast is plain daft, J P at Stealth Marine builds good quality tear drop section masts and by memory they were not a lot over 2K pounds. His moulds would be long enough for your requirements. Drop him an Email and I'm sure he would be able to supply a class with their particular requirements ( and he has the 18HT hull moulds still )
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 08:09 PM

there are plenty of places that can supply the mast we need.

its just that there's no movement by Nacra (US or Nacra EU) to make the change.
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/15/08 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
there are plenty of places that can supply the mast we need.

its just that there's no movement by Nacra (US or Nacra EU) to make the change.


If the kit suits and the manufacturer won't play ball why not go it alone? There is plenty of precedence for this. It is not likely that many new boats will be sold with inflated prices so why not bite the bullet and go for "equipment accepted by the class association"?
There have been numerous manufacturers who have been left in the &*5! by not listening to/working with its customers.

Cheshirecatman
Posted By: PTP

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/16/08 12:03 AM

how much say does the average N20 sailor have in how Nacra produces a SMOD boat?
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 10/16/08 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by PTP
how much say does the average N20 sailor have in how Nacra produces a SMOD boat?


How the manufacturer produces a boat is one thing! How the sailors/class associations agree to race them is a different matter. If the manufacturer gets a reputation for ripping off existing sailors class associations have been known to 'break away'. Very few SMOD boats continue without change. Who would risk investing in a new SMOD cat from a manufacturer with a record of not working with its existing customers? Very often a MFR will impose change, generally based upon profit rather than design/quality issues. Sailors do have a voice (and wallets), they just need to use both effectively.

Cheshirecatman
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/16/08 01:04 PM

Eric,
Check your messages.

Bill
Posted By: phill

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/16/08 05:16 PM

Folks,
Curious conversation about the I20 mast.
I would be interested to find out:
1) how long this mast is and
2) how much the blank carbon stick weighs?
Appreciate it if someone can satisfy my curiosity?

Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Swiss 18HT

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 07/20/09 07:19 PM

Actually we have a fleet over in Europe and would like to get in touch with our US colleagues again. Just visit us on http://www.18ht.ch and forum.18ht.ch. Cheers.
Posted By: wayler

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/28/10 01:30 PM

just purchased US 22 and trailed it back to Indy, another boat just bought Fla going to Mi
Posted By: wayler

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/28/10 11:50 PM

BOUGHT US 22 ANYONE KNOW WHER BILL VINNING , CT WENT , ORIGINAL OWNER US 22, AM 3RD OWNER, HAVE QUESTIONS FOR EXPERT ON JAV2
Posted By: PTP

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/29/10 12:05 AM

there are other people around that know the jav2 as well. captaincardiac has one and I co-owned it with him at one point.
btw... where in Michigan? I am outside of detroit and sail on lake st clair
Posted By: EdB

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 01:38 AM


I bought #4 from Jamie Diamond (original owner) this summer. He and I live in Central Ohio.
I would like to talk with Bill Vinning as well. I am giving serious though to widening to 10 or 11' and making an 18 sq out of it. Spinnaker rigged that is. Concerned about beam thickness/dimensions. Anybody care to chime in?
Very cool boat!! Very cool!
Posted By: PTP

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 01:43 AM

i know vinning widened his some- but I think he only did it to 8'6. the boat will get pretty pitchy if you widen it a lot more. there isn't a whole bunch of volume in the bows
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 01:53 AM

Yeah, Bill bought new carbon beams, I think he went to 9', and recommended no more. I agree that the bows don't have enough volume to go much wider. He also raised the rear beam, another good mod. If you can't get a hold of him, pm me, I have a bunch of great correspondence from him re this boat I could pass on. I probably have his email/phone # here somewhere......



Dave
HT # 9
Posted By: EdB

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 02:15 AM

Dave, anything you have would be great. Carbon beams would be nice. Thanks!
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 01:03 PM

I had #24, and it was completely re-built with the W1000 in mind. Replaced all of the aluminum bits with carbon - except the beams. Had them on order, but the W1000 rules came out and specifically denied the use of carbon beams. Guck daggerboards and rudders, reinforced transoms and daggerboard trunks. Beefed up all of the attachment points with additional carbon layup. Also added more carbon to the mast track area to support the Smythe mainsail with reef points. I sold #24 down to the Panama City Beach area, don't know if it's still down there. I think it was destined to be a pleasure sailer...
Posted By: PTP

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 01:34 PM

the one absolutely required mod is raising the rear beam. some people had carbon risers made. we made some aluminum ones.
Posted By: Commodore_CCC

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 02:01 PM

To the fella who said he'd make the HT into a Square:

the 18 Square refers to 18 square meters of SAIL AREA. Beam is not restricted.

You will certainly not be 18 Square compliant with a spinnaker, and I'm not sure what the TOTAL sailarea of the 18HT is, I expect it's more than 18 square meters which is 193 sq ft as I recall, and you will not be legal in the Square class.

18 Square box rule is pretty much this: maximum 18 sq mtr sailarea in any configuration, 5.5 mtr maximum boat length, beam not restricted. If all up boat weight is less than 330 lb, you are Category 1, and if more than 330 lb you are Category 2.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 04:47 PM

18Ht sail area is 20 sq meters. same sail area (or very similar) to the N20

http://www.18ht.ch/design-en.html
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 05:01 PM

Tommy Granger (re)- built a nice one in the Clear Lake/Houston area. Maybe he'll cjhime in.
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 06:16 PM

I widened my HT to 8' 6", I was going to 9', but then decided not to, I didnt want to worry about trailering it. I got beams from Forte, www.forterts.com, they sell them in 10' lengths, so I had some extra which I made risers from for the rear beams. This worked out great, and now I have a backrest to lean on when I am driving. All the other systems work perfectly with the wider beams, including the rigging. The only consideration is the tramp, which i will need to be widened, and I had replaced the tramp with a new one that laced up on the sides. Kinder can make you a "Acat style" tramp and I can suppy pictures if you need them to give to kinder. www.kinder-industries.com

Bill
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/29/10 06:20 PM

By the way, 8'6" is plenty wide, I wouldnt go any wider, the boat is right on the edge of stuffing the bow at 8'6". If you go 10ft wide it will be a pitchpole machine and it will be a pain to trailer.

I'm getting the itch to have a HT reunion. Anyone interested? How about this winter in Florida?
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/29/10 06:23 PM

Wayler,
Did you buy #22 from the French dude in Long Island? I dont think he sailed it much.

Bill
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/29/10 08:01 PM

Bill, you should hold your HT Reunion at Tradewinds, Key Largo, mid January. That is where Randy and WF first introduced the Jav 2 many years ago, so it would be a "full circle" moment.

One question about tramps...I notice when I'm sailing upwind in good breeze on one hull, my tramp is bowing upward as the wind is getting under it, is that "a good thing" ie, is that providing some upward lift on the low hull, ala curved dagger boards, or is that just drag and hurting my righting moment?

Is that why a lot of the A cats have gone to the lace up tramps, with large open slots on each side? Are they designed to allow that wind under the tramp to escape and not lift up the high hull?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/30/10 01:47 AM

Timbo,

Bowing tramps are just creating more drag. What exactly is high wind? The tramps may bow up at some point (say >20 kts), this is hard to avoid unless you make the tramp super stiff. I would say the bigger problem with a loose tramp is reduced stiffness between the two hulls more than anything else.

A-Cats and other boats have gone to the lace up tramps so they can get some big tough guys to yank as hard as possible on some zero stretch FSE Robline and get a super stiff tramp, good for other activities besides sailing....
Posted By: EdB

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/30/10 04:03 AM

In regards to the 18 sq thought I may go all the way with the proper size main. There's no 18 sq class racing so the spinnaker is added and accounted for with handicap #. I race mostly single handed and would like to have wider beams for stability. Carbon would be awesome but I can't imagine the cost. Any of you guys have a set sitting around?
Posted By: EdB

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/30/10 04:36 AM

18 HT Sail Area. The guy I bought mine off of thought there may have been several different sizes of main sails in the US. Stock USA boats may have had smaller mains than over seas boats. Anybody ever heard that. He didn't know for sure but thought he had heard something like that. Anybody know of a sail measuring formula online?
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/30/10 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by EdB
Anybody know of a sail measuring formula online?


Have a look at the SCHRS website SCHRS.com
Posted By: Commodore_CCC

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/30/10 01:13 PM

Well let's run some numbers.

Provided you spend the FOUR figures to have the custom sail made, we'll assume you build an 18 Square class legal sail. Since the HT is certainly less than 330lb, you would be Category 1. Your base rating is:
64.2

Add a spinnaker, you get knocked: .960, so the base formula is:

64.2 x .960 =
61.6 DP-N base rating.


I guess you gain a little, as the base rating for the 18HT (if you have crew) is:
Formula 18HT Uni spi 2up F18HT 60.0

If you singlehand the above, my usual hit is the 70% mod: .974 (this varies wildly depending on where you are.)

So the rating provided you keep the boat stock and singlehand it
60.0 x .974 = 58.4

BUT...
In order to be fair and legal, you will need to have the 18HT sail either cut radically or custom made to 18 Square measurement. I would expect that most sailmakers will just tell you to have one made instead of cutting what you might have, which a new well-made sail is around 2 grand last time I bought one.

For what you're contemplating doing here, you'd be better off financially just buying a Square, since modding the HT will devalue it, and you'll have spent a lot of time and money doing the mods.
Posted By: EdB

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 10/30/10 03:39 PM

Thanks for doing the hdc numbers! I've been meaning to do that. The other way I could go is sticking with the HT and widening it like others have done. I'll have to check those numbers as well.

I singlehand most of the time and class racing in our area is pretty much non existing for any boat, unfortunatly. I can keep my boat on a local lake shore 5 minutes from my front door and will travel to a few races at lake Erie if time permits. (2 grade schoolers, wife, long hours at work etc etc)

I sold my Nacra 18 square last winter. The old ones are heavy! I could have invested a chunk into that boat and still had a 1992 aluminum masted heavy boat. Now for less than $5 G's I have a very light, stiff carbon masted modern boat that's very fast in all conditions and a trailer. I think 1 dagger board on the Nacra weighed as much as 2 daggers and 2 rudder blades on the HT.

What Im really after is a very stable boat in heavy air. Lite weight to drag up the shore and still competative in regards to hdc ratings. Tha nacra 18 sq was very stable...

The sail - if I stick with widening only, I stay with the existing main. Sooner or later I'll need a new main and I can decide then if it should be an 18 sq or HT.

De-value? since the fleet is not hot and heavy I think that work has been done prior to me buying the boat. first they were sold at a lesser price when brought in for the Worrel. When I was looking at this boat there were 4 others available. 2 were in the same price range, 1 was cheaper. 1 was $8 G's, sailed 3 times, no trailer, no extras but perfect condition. It's been for sale for 2 years or so at this point. Most had extras, maybe sails, cattrax, boards etc. To me this is a pretty good price for a carbon masted, lite weight modern boat. Especially in the condition I found them to be in.

I will still keep the stock set up if I modify so in reality I would have 2 boats to a prospective buyer!

Time & Money doing the mods.
It's late fall in Ohio, soon to be winter. I have plenty of time. Im in the landscape business. The boat is in the basement and I don't have to share the space. Plenty of tools including Industrial sewing machine.... so let the fun begin.

Money - I priced aluminum beams locally, afordable. Carbon doubtful but we will see. New tramp - I'll build it myself buying material on line etc. We have a god guy in town who can do new stays and wires if necessary. I found a used Harken track on ebay for $20.

So It will be a fun winter
Great conversation though!
Im glad to see this much interest in the boat. Many people seem to like the boat and concept.
I would like to see an 18HT regatta somewhere. How about 18HT Florida Midwinter's - Pensacola??? Stock boat, 2 Up!!!! I could find crew for that.

Thanks for your input as well!
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 11/01/10 01:38 PM

The laces in the sides of the tramps are for us old guys to put our feet in to "step" out onto the trapeze.
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 11/01/10 02:07 PM

Couple of comments.
Heavy Air
I sailed my HT this summer in some really heavy winds, 25-30knts, on a protected inlet on Cape Cod. Flat water, and I never took the spin out of the snuffer. It was one of the most fun moments I've had with this boat. I let the traveler all the way out, and was sailing on a deep reach, doing the wild thing like the Acat's do downwind, with all the controls on the main “off” – ie no downhaul, rotator all the way out, outhaul eased. It was as fun as flying the spin, but less complicated and the boat really flew, it was a lot like the way the Acat will go downwind on a hot downwind angle. If you are just interested in going out sailing in heavy air, this setting is a lot of fun.
Upwind in heavy air, put every mast/main control on full “on” setting. Ie, pull the downhaul and main sheet as hard as you can (do this either together or do some sheet and then some downhaul, but don’t do one all the way and then the other.) I have a replacement Kevlar Main that Peter Cogan made me and I can turn the main into a board and upwind in heavy air is very manageable, and very fast, as long as you can get the main very flat. If your main is old and stretched out, you might not be able to get all the curve out of the main and you won’t approach this sail setting. The mast will do this nicely if the sail is cut right and you apply enough downhaul. I think this one of the boats strongest features. I have a 16/1 downhaul and I can really hammer on it.
Widening – and devaluing.
If you keep the standard beams and tramp when you widen the HT to either make it more manageable or make it a 18sq, I don’t think you’ve devalued it at all. You now have two boats for the price of one, and since there is zero class racing for the HT, who cares anyways? If we do get back together as a class, I would propose 8’6” wide for US HT’s as a max.
Altering the main
I wouldn’t alter a 20 sq HT main to make a 18sq main, unless the HT main is trashed, and then you could experiment with hot knifing it down by 2sq, but you’ll probably want a sailmaker’s input. I would go have a new 18sq main made, if you are serious about 18sq racing, you’ll need a 18sq main made for the HT mast, which has very good bend/flattening controls. A new 18sq main would be well worth the investment, AND it would/could be a heavy air sail.

Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 11/02/10 02:03 AM

Thanks Bill!!! Would Peter be open to building more sails like yours? Other sailmakers with experience with this mast? Are you recommending a max beam of 8' 6"? Much as I'd like to go wider, I do get nervous downwind in big air, even with crew as far aft as possible. And I agree that in serious breeze the boat is mighty quick with main alone. Do you have a pic of your tramp?
Ed, what was the price quote for the wider beams in alum?
Thanks men, for getting me enthused about this boat again!

Dave
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 11/02/10 01:02 PM

I will send Peter a note and see if he would be willing to make more mains. He reads this forum, maybe he will pm you.

I think 8'6" is right for the HT, I will post a picture of the tramp but its going to take me a couple of weeks before I can get to the boat. If you see pictures of an Acat tramp with the sides laced to tramp slugs, thats the same idea.

Posted By: EdB

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 11/03/10 05:35 PM

Dave, Just got your rudder photos. Simple & cool.
Does that APS cleat work well?
I'll get the beam prices for you next week. Too busy right now.
Thanks!
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 11/04/10 05:05 AM

Can't say actually, I've never hit anything with the rudders. I think it'd work fine, and I think I patterned the set up on pics of other HTs.

Dave
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 11/04/10 08:12 AM

My rudders pop up fine, I run over stuff all the time, mostly sandbars coming into the beach.
Posted By: wayler

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/07/10 02:41 AM

i agree am considering redoing my HT18 just purchased, have barely sailed it yet, season over here in Indiana virtually, has anyone gone through the process? not sure why some cats are no made with extendable beams so can trailer at8'6" and extended with 4 quick bolt adjustments , would obviosly be slightly heavier than one piece cross beams but for fast stable and trailerable a great solution
Posted By: Timbo

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/07/10 05:26 AM

The old Hobie 21's had the extendable beams, but after a few years in salt water the corrosion/salt/sand usually made the slide-abilty quite dificult if not useless. As I recall, they were quite heavy as well, but cat building has come a long way since then.
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/07/10 04:19 PM

Origional Supercat 20 beams are extendable. You still have to redo the tramp
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/07/10 05:03 PM

Yeah, I thought the SC20 system worked pretty well(freshwater), but lacing up the tramp was time consuming. Seems like it took over 2 hours to rig with 2 guys who knew the drill, although that included a fwd beam and spin set up. I never felt the added weight was an issue on a 20' boat, and with new shims in place there wasn't much slop/flexing.

Dave
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/09/10 06:53 AM

Live on, old thread, live on!
Posted By: MalteM

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/10/10 07:53 PM

Can somebody post pictures of how to raise the rear beam without doing major mods to the hull?

I own USA-32 which I used to sail a lot in Santa Barbara, CA (mostly 1-up). Wish I had raised beams back then, the waves were hitting the rear beam constantly.

Posted By: PTP

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/10/10 10:33 PM

You don't have to do any mode to the hulls. Get some aluminum tube from somewhere... thicker than regular beams. Cut off a length, flip over, have someone weld it. Gains 4 inches. I layered some structural filler since the id and od didn't match up.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/11/10 05:18 AM

PM me, I may have the pics.

Dave
Posted By: EdB

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/12/10 02:29 AM

The previous owner of my boat had a carbon set of rear beam risers made in Gulfbreeze FL for $550 at Recreational Composites back in 2006. Very nice, lite, stiff & strong.
If I knew how to post a picture I would.
PM me if you wish
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/12/10 12:56 PM

I would only do carbon risers on carbon beams.

Carbon and aluminum dont play well together, so if you do go this route, make sure that there is a layer of something in between the carbon and aluminum.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/12/10 05:26 PM

Here's a pic of an aluminum riser from Joe's boat.


dave

Attached picture beam riser.jpg
Posted By: Jake

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/12/10 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by davefarmer
Here's a pic of an aluminum riser from Joe's boat.


dave


ahhhh...I see now. I was wondering what in the heck you guys were doing to make those round beams fit together.
Posted By: MalteM

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/12/10 07:41 PM

Thanks a lot for posting the picture, I got it now ;-)
Posted By: PTP

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/13/10 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by davefarmer
Here's a pic of an aluminum riser from Joe's boat.


dave

those are the ones Joe and I made. We made some originally with an old beam from a nacra but it wasn't stiff enough. These are actually overkill and could be lesser thickness. Much less expensive than the carbon ones. Once you cut holes in them to lighten them some then they don't weigh a whole bunch more than the carbon ones.
Posted By: EdB

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/13/10 01:54 AM

"Carbon and aluminum dont play well together"

Hey, explain this a little more if you don't mind and what would you put between the two surfaces?
Thanks!
Posted By: bvining

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 11/13/10 02:55 PM

Carbon and aluminum swap electrons, which significantly weakens and corrodes the aluminum, especially in a marine environment. Salt water accellerates the process. A white powder is the result of the corrosion. The HT aluminum mast bases are weakened over time and will break due to contact with the carbon mast. Its best to take them off and paint them, or replace them with carbon or SS mast base.

A thin layer of HDPE works

There are a number of primers that work too.

Dont use aluminum rivets in carbon, only SS rivets.

Posted By: wayler

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 02/09/11 04:35 PM

just bought 18 HT in Hamptons, barely sailed it in fall,main halyard broke first raising of main, number of questions for experienced 18 HT owner, how did you widen it specifically ?, jim j indy waylerindy@yahoo.com
Posted By: wayler

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/09/11 06:33 PM

sorry for the delay, yes bought it, picked up old trailer from H 16, modified it once back home with load spreading at contact points, broke main halyard in Outer Banks on first raising of main, had some questions re mast rake as boat seemed to not be set up correctly re stay lengths, received video from Bimare after month of emailing, but it does not address stay lengths, also the pin attached to front aspect carbon mast base seems to suggest raising mast from forward using this as pivot point, but this seeems horribly risky and unstable vs raising mast from aft with both sidestays connected and ready to stabilize mast once vertical, just waiting for forestays to be attached, any one have correct lenghts fore side and forestays, are adjuster plates typically used on sides, and are high tensile lines used for final adjustments on forestays ? have owned Solcat 18 TheMightyHobie18, H20 and having line vs wire for standing rigging seems fragile for a rig this size
Posted By: Jake

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/10/11 01:15 AM

Raising from the front is actually easier since you should have two split forestays. Most a-cats step their mast this way. Connect the forestays with a lot of slack in them and make sure the boat is pointed into the wind. Step the mast and let the mast lean raked way back...the two forestays will help keep it stable...though it is wise to have someone steading the mast at the base while someone pins the shrouds for a little insurance.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/11/11 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Raising from the front is actually easier since you should have two split forestays.


Does it make sense to rig the boom (halyard and mainsheet) and use it as a gin pole? The mainsheet would keep the mast steady until the shrouds are connected.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: G.Zeus, y'all! - 02/11/11 10:19 PM

Hey Ed and All,

Jim is still working RecComp two houses away from me. How about some of you Ohio wranglers making it down to Key Sailing for the Midwinters this year - March 18 - 20?

Bert Jr and his son, Michael will be racing their shiny new Viper 16. Kirk and Mark are hanging in there, and Krantz claims to be bringing his NACRA F 20 C. The A cats will be sailing in Ben Hall's Admiral Cup event so we are hoping for a large Portsmouth Class, a NACRA 20 Class, a Formula 16 Class, and a Formula 18 Class.

Think about it. Were you here the year it snowed?:-)

Bert Rice
Viper 16, Sail# 2010
Posted By: PTP

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/12/11 12:17 AM

raising the mast on the HT was easy when going from front to back. Nice because there was no 'getting up on the tramp' step.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/12/11 03:17 AM

We use a gin pole for raising the mast on Farrier/Corsair trimarans, and it works great. I wonder now if I can develop such a system for our Viper 16 since we have to spin the mast 180 degrees because of the rotator.

There are two HTs in Mobile, AL. One of them is carbon, and the other platform is glass. Contact Hunter Riddle or Donnie Brennan.
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/12/11 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by wayler
are adjuster plates typically used on sides, and are high tensile lines used for final adjustments on forestays ? have owned Solcat 18 TheMightyHobie18, H20 and having line vs wire for standing rigging seems fragile for a rig this size


I rigged all the standing rigging on my HT with amsteel line. you don't have to worry about it being fragile. it has a higher strength than steel wire does. eventually i took it all off though because i found i had to constantly adjust it and it 'felt' spongy. the rigging didn't feel stiff. maybe it was all in my head but i still like the SS lines. now, i use amsteel to adjust the forestays. no problem there. its all that boat ever uses. i replace it every 2-3 yrs because rigging should be replaced that often but i'm sure it would last longer. the side stays are conventional with plates for adjustment.

what a great boat!

cc
Posted By: roccats

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/17/11 03:41 PM

Anyone have pictures or a diagram of how the internal downhaul is set up on their HT? When I purchased my boat she was set up with a external downhaul system but it looks like it was originally set up with a internal system.

I have always found raising the mast from bow to stern easiest. I also use standard SS rigging with SS plates for adjustment.

-Chris
F18HT USA 1
Rochester NY
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/18/11 01:37 PM

I don't have any diagrams and i'm too simple to be able to explain it here. I think it would be a challenge to set it up again if it were disassembled. You can do it, its just challenging. The internal cross bar has to be taken down and done in such a way that it can be retrieved. I think it takes some fishing tape work. good luck.

Posted By: PTP

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/19/11 12:59 AM

I removed it years ago and you tape a line to the bolt when you pull it out so that you can then pull the blocks down. The blade has an internal downhaul that runs the same way. Maybe someone can get you a diagram of that. Put something on the F16 forum and I guarantee someone has a diagram already made up.

any advice captain cardiac has comes from what I taught him smile
Not too long ago, he would rather do anything than work on a boat
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/19/11 01:39 PM

that's cruel. perhaps true but cruel.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 02/19/11 03:36 PM

It goes something like this:

Attached picture DH.JPG
Posted By: azF18htsailor

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 03/18/11 03:20 AM

usa # 10 is now in Arizona.
Posted By: AzCat

Re: Where are 18HT's? Bill Vinning are you out there???? - 03/18/11 04:06 AM

AAAHHHHH! Good old #10 Manny told me he beat you last week on his 5.8, WHATS UP WITH THAT BIG FELLA!!!?
Posted By: BoK

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 03/18/11 02:49 PM

http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans/p11127-javlin-f18ht.html
Posted By: KMarshack

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 03/19/11 02:23 PM

Thats my old boat. Glad to see it sailed again. The previous owner did not sail it much due to health reasons.
Posted By: MikeBurns

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/28/11 01:58 AM

I have #6
Posted By: PCFL waterman

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/31/11 06:09 PM

I have USA #24 now in PC Florida. we sail out of ST. Andrews bay yacht club. there is actually another one for sale on the board in the club for 4500. complete with two sails and trailer. no idea of what kind of condition, but next time I'm down I will gather more info if someone is looking.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 10/31/11 09:01 PM

I have #9 here in Spokane, WA. And to all HT owners, Dan Berger currently has a BUNCH of new and barley used HT parts for sale, see beachcats classifieds.

Dave
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 11/03/11 02:22 PM

I have fresh pictures of the rear beam riser and the tramp, I dont think I ever posted pictures. She is for sale, and yes I bought an ad.

https://picasaweb.google.com/106247774682807806142/BimareJavelin18HT?authkey=Gv1sRgCIC2z4vovYSFBQ#

The guys down in Shearwater had a mini HT revival with 3 boats recently. They are threatening a HT Nationals for next year.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 11/03/11 03:52 PM

Nice shots Bill, thanks! She's still 9' wide? Is the snuffer sock sewn to the tramp? Nice detail attaching the tramp to the rear beam. Can you talk about the reinforcement on the mast where the bolt rope enters? I think mine needs the same treatement.

Dave
Posted By: bvining

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 11/03/11 04:14 PM

I went 8' 6" wide for ease of trailering. Yeah, knotting amsteel with a ss washer inside makes a nice easy attachment point on carbon beams, I cant claim credit for that innovation, I borrowed it from someone else.

Yes, snuffer sock is sewn to tramp with zippers that allow it to zip on and off. Peter Cogan made the tramp and snuffer sock, he added lots of nice little details you dont usually find on tramps.

The bolt rope reinforcement is just 4 or so layers of carbon, nothing exotic.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Where have all the 18HTs gone? - 11/04/11 02:13 AM

Thanks Bill!
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