2009 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup

As of this morning the Alter Cup Committee has voted, the 2009 US Multihull Championship will be held on Australian High Performance Catamarans Viper F16 in central Florida sometime in the fall.

Kevin Rejda
US Multihull Championship Chair

1-up, 2-up, or both?

SWEET!!
Bob is gonna race a F16!!

2-up

In fall, interesting. What part of central FL? Are we talking shoreline or lake sailing?

Sounds like Lake Eustis Sailing Club will be hosting, what a great venue if that is true.

I hope they wait until at least October for some wind and less thunderstorms if it's inland. Or is it going to be at Gulfport or Clearwater or Melborne?

A venue has not been selected, the decision to use the Viper was only made this morning and I can only move so fast. . .

How is the boat chosen?

Is it a case of the manufacturer who is in the position to provide the appropiate number of boats?

So much for working together on this Kevin. I am absolutley shocked at the lack of courtesy you have extended me on this, after the trouble I have gone to on your behalf. Incredible.

I have to agree with Chris on this one, Kevin. You've managed, in very short order, to piss off the largest multihull class in North America. You have much to learn when it comes to courtesy and protocol.

Some background for everyone else:
Some time ago, Hobie Cat USA was approached to provide boats for the Alter Cup. The original plan was to use the Hobie 16 w/spin boats that will be used for the US qualifier to the ISAF Youth Worlds in Brazil. The boats would be used for that event, then the Alter Cup, then be shipped to Brazil for the ISAF event.

The Alter Cup was to be held at Mission Bay Yacht Club in late March. They had even gotten so far as to select a PRO for the event.

Unfortunately, there is an on-going issue within the IHCA regarding the H-16 w/spin. North America is adamantly opposed to introducing another class variant. Europe has been pushing the spin hard for the last five years and so far has managed to get it included in the class rules for "special youth events only". To have an adult event in the H-16 w/spin would severely weaken North America's position against the spinnaker.

Since holding an adult Alter Cup in H-16 w/spin is not consistent with the class rules, Kevin approached Chris to poll the HCA-NA Board to allow the spin in the Alter Cup. The HCA-NA Board did not approve the proposal. Hobie Cat Co. was prepared to supply the boats without spinnakers, but at additional cost ($7,000 vs. $5,000) to strip the hardware off the boats.

While we understand your desire not to get involved in class politics, and that it would have been more expensive, you caused Chris and the HCA-NA board to waste their time - and then insult them by not so much as making a phone call to let him know of your committee's decision.

Poor form.

Too all that are reading, as you know, I was the chairman for this event for the last couple of years and, for a several different reasons that I'm not going to get into here, I fell down in my responsibilities this year as it relates to paving the way for the 2009 Alter Cup Championship. Kevin and others at US Sailing have worked very hard to pick up the pieces in the last couple of weeks to ensure that it happens in 2009. They're literally scrambling to quickly fill the vacuum I left in my wake.

That said, you guys are mad - and I understand that...but you're airing a lot of dirty laundry at a guy who literally stepped into the position a couple of weeks ago. Cost is a HUGE problem for the event in 2009 and I'm excitied for Kevin and the multihull committee that they've found, what I presume to be, a more affordable alternative to keep costs down for the competitors.

Yep, it sounds like the protocol would have been to call the Hobie camp first but I wouldn't say Kevin "wasted" anybody's time - I know Kevin wanted the H16 w/ spin deal to work out in conjunction with the youth championship. If you guys want to get mad, get mad at me for putting Kevin in a position that he had to act at an incredibly accelerated pace. I'm sorry for putting all of you in this late position.

This is, as Jake said, an airing of laundry that really isn't necessary. And if anyone deserves the blame, the buck stops right here. I am the one that called Hobie Cat and asked about using the boat. I didn't consider how the Class would feel about that - completely my fault. Once the IHCA and the HCANA e-mails started flying, I was caught off guard and Kevin was blindsided. There wasn't a win-win available in the end and I deeply regret my mistake. MBYC understands the situation and there are no hard feelings there. Can we leave it at that and move on?

No good deed goes unpunished.

Listen, I am not trying to make a federal case out of this. I am a bit put off by the fact that we had a good conversation, i told him what to expect and he agreed that whatever the outcome, it would be okay. I went out to the div chairs who in turn went to their fleets and asked EVERYONE if giving a one time pass on the class rules would be okay for the Alter Cup event? It got everyone talking about it positively, I even heard alot more discussion about participating from the 16 guys. Well, once it didn't go their way, I didn't get an acknowlegement of the email I sent to Kevin, nor did I get wind of the Boat change. I was asking alot of the Div chairs and fleets in the HCA-NA to get this poll done quickly and with minimum of fanfare and did my best to pave the road. Now, I feel like I was pissing into the wind. I am not mad about the boat change, that's their deal. I just would have liked to know about it, so I could tell the Hobie guys about it, rather than them reading about it on a catamaran forum.
You guys gotta do what you gotta do. To bad we couldn't figure out a way to all do it together.

This one's for you, JW:

I don't think it was wasted effort - the end result was a clear signal that US SAILING needs to respect the wishes of the largest fleet in North America. As volunteers rotate through positions within the association, that is a message that should get reiterated periodically lest some knucklehead put his foot in it.

Fair enough. I DO know for a fact, that the Youth Director and BOD of HCA-NA is in full support of the Youth Event in Long Beach in January and is making every effort to get Hobie Teams there.
Thanks and good luck with your event.
Chris Wessels
HCA-NA

deleted extra post

the only "poor form" I see here are the hobie people. it doesn't sound likr anything intentional but mere business. if hobie will not allow a change then move on to someone who will accommodate the alter cup requisites. to charge an additional $2000 to "remove hardware" is rediclous. kevin, thanks for coming to the rescue of the cup, that is what is important anyway.

Just a clarification, the charter fee for the boats was agreed to be $7000 with the spins. When it became apparent the spins would not be allowed, the charter fee did not change. The charter fee in the past has been $5000, maybe that is the reason for the confusion.

Ugh.. unreasonable... NO !

My local Hobie dealer has been stuck with a 16 with chute used two years ago at the ISAF youth games for a week in Cork. It's at the Annapolis boat show every year... nobody wants it.

He won't sell it without the spin... no class member want's to buy it with the spin....

The premium to put the gear on and off and on again has to be paid for. Don't mix up the CLASS buisness... with the company's buisness.

In the end... the big picture is really:

Does the US racing community want the Alter qualifier and championship.

With max attendance at 15 boats... and many areas with no participation or minimal participation.. WHY SHOULD WE KEEP DOING THIS?

Please don't mix issues.

The boats in question were going to be shipped to Europe after the Alter Cup. So, selling them on the US market would not have been an issue. Just class business.

And Area L had 17 boats for this years Qualifier. A 3-fold increase over last year.

To clarify...

A) There was no "UP" charge by Hobie for taking the H16 without spin gear. The charter fee quoted by us was the same either way. BTW, These fees do not cover the cost for providing boats. This is equipment, transportation, labor, maintenence during the event etc.

B) I think it makes all the sense in the World that the Class decided to reject the use of the spinnaker as "not a class legal" boat.

C) US Sailing could have accepted the 16 as it is sailed in the USA... no spinnaker.

I'm not the most diplomatic person in the world and my comments in these kinds of threads tend to lead to Michael Bay (Bad Boys 2) alike spectacular explosions.

So get out the popcorn, put on your sunglasses (Bright light warning) and get into your comfy chair.

Are you all ready ?

Here it comes, enjoy !


Matt Miller wrote :




Anybody please entlighten me; Is or is not the Alter Cup final an official Hobie class event ?

If not, then what the %@!&*#@* has the NA-HCA organisation to do with how the used boat is equipped ?

And again, why can the exact same boats be used in no less then TWO major and official HOBIE CLASS events on the same continent but NOT in the (unassociated) Alter Cup ?

Note here that the spi equipment would have to be FITTED then REMOVED and then REFITTED again in order to use these boats WITH A SPI in the two named hobie class events that straddle the Alter Cup event.

Really, who is thinking this **** up ?






They could also have accepted to use a design by a different boat maker, one that comes without "interesting" bureaucratic thorns, hooks and conditions or indeed holes and protrusions from removed equipment.

Ohh wait, THEY DID !


I'll wait to see what more comes out of it, but it really does appears as if internal disagreements on the Hobie side of things derailed the Hobie 16 + spi usage as the Alter Cup boat. Especially since an alternative bid (Viper F16) was also in the works. I for one will say, another try next year ! The AC committee would have been wise to inform the parties before their public announcement but I see no ground for any blame (outside the Hobie group themselves that is) beyond that.

Sure I'm biased as hell but I wonder what I would choose as an Alter Cup Chair when faced with the choice on how to decide who is the ultimate NA sailor ; using standard issue and previously used hobie 16's or brand new modern racing machines like the Viper F16's ?

Yes, call me biased for choosing a new Ferrari over a second hand Ford Pinto (that has the stereo removed ! ).

Wouter

Wouter,

The Alter cup 2009, organized by US sailing will be conducted under the racing rules of sailing.

The latest version of the racing rules will be in effect (hint: RRS 2005-2008 will have been superceded). Do a little homework and read the rules: ISAF class rules can only be modified with written permission of the class (in this case the Hobie Class).

The spinnaker is only allowed under Hobie Class rules for youth events. The class voted no modifying the rules to use the spinnaker for the Alter Cup (not a youth event).

The Hobie Class in North America wishes to maintain the Hobie 16 as a strong and vibrant one design class and to keep costs reasonable. This is the wishes of the vast majority of the active Hobie 16 racers. They do not want the class split by the introduction of the spinaker - and did not want to promote use of the spinaker on the boat at the Alter Cup - and I can understand and support that point of view (despite being a confirmed spinnaker junky).

Chris Green
Chair, Division 6.

Wouter, stop being an butt.

You have no idea what really happened in the US over the decisions on what boat to use.

I know that in the US, the Hobie 16 with a Spi is not something that the Hobie 16 Class wishes to promote as a class.

Holy Crap, you weren't kidding Wouter. KABOOM!

Now here is a guy who has found the right way to view my posting !



Wouter

Sure is going to be a hard sell asking Hobie 16 sailors to support this event in the future.

Yep, that is probably true.

Wouter

A hard sell ?

Area C has Hobie Division 11 which had 110 racers competing this year in their highpoint scored events. some sail multiple boats... so about 100 individuals.

Plus... 50 A Cats competing in the Atlantic Coast high point (Area A and Area C) event.

That is probably 125 Racing Sailors in Area C....

Alter Qualifier turnout... 4! (all hobie sailors)

Bob... How much lower can it go before its simply a farce!

Without changes ... it's a waste of money! We could punt on the adult championship and invest the money in an elite junior multihull program.

Mark,

I consider that area more the exception than the rule. Other areas do have pretty good turnouts at their qualifiers. Area Dn and Ds have been increasing participation numbers in the last 5 years.

What great news. I was really concerned what a standard H16 might due to the Alter Cup participation. I am sure the Hobie guys worked hard to come to an agreement, but it would seem the biggest concerns for their class vs then the Multi-hull championship.

Kevin, Jake, JW I can't begin to imagine the time you spend promoting our sport. Thanks for your time.

Consider this, Greg Goodall and AHPC have come through two years running. That's support for sure.

The qualifier in Area K is well attended every year, and is very competive event.

OK.. What are the numbers ...

Best I ever achieved was about 18 boats in Area C. ... that's under 15% of the racing fleet... We were number 2 or 3 in turnout for a couple of years.

Which Area is getting 30% (a very modest percentage) of the racing sailors out for the championship?

Two of the strongest catamaran racing regions in the country are Hobie divisions in Area C and Area B... you can't blow them off.... Why they don't buy into the Area Championships is an issue that should be looked at.

What you are hearing is that a large number of catamaran racers are feeling that they are disenfranchised by USSA and the Alter committee or simply don't give a damn.

I don't buy the "all is well" with the Alter Cup

ps... the Championship event is still listed for Mission Bay YC on the US Sailing site.

Moving as fast as I can. . . would be interested in ideas to increase participation and interest in the Alter Cup

That's your problem right there.

When the choice of boat matters more than the competition; when you essentially disenfranchise the largest one-design sailing class in the US, you're limiting your participation. Why should the choice of boat make a difference?

Matt, the boat doesn't matter - it was solely the controversy involved. There was pressure from both sides of the Hobie camp. Brent, we chose the Hobie 16 in 2004 and we had a full fleet, so I think that history shows there hasn't been a bias on the committee - in fact we leaned on Hobie Cat two years in a row with the Tiger and the 16. This time, through my unwitting presumption, it got really hot in the kitchen.

Again, I hope we can just move on. Every year, there are people excited about the boat, and people who aren't. We're lucky a different boat gets showcased year to year.

I disagree - it certainly mattered to Brent. I'll bet it matters to a significant number of readers of this forum.

That's not quite true. The results are no longer available on-line, but I recall a lot of the qualifiers decided not to come and you were scratching to fill all the spots a couple of weeks before the event (I know, since I almost got in by petition at the last minute).

Results for the 2004 event, as well as all events through 1999, can be found on the ussailing website.

2004 Alter Cup results

Eric

John's quote is 100% true, we had a full fleet, feel free to draw your own conclusions as to why you almost got in at the last minute

Hmmm...those H16 guys always kick my butt in the qualifier...maybe I'll stand a chance now

If folks can set aside the partisanship for a minute--this seems like a great opportunity to sail one of the most interesting new boats to come on the scene in the last few years.

And not with just any bottom of the line design, but top of the line and rigged to the latest racing standard F18's and now F16's. There is at least a doubling in the invested money right there, by a company that is nowhere near the size or financial cloud of a company like Nacra or Hobie and also half a world away.

If anything, we have got to respect that !

Now the Hobie 16 boys will have their period of public grief, and rightly so, but in the end even they will have to look at the hard facts and concede that there is some considerable difference here; if not a controversy that is best avoided altogether. These facts do indeed argue in favour of the AHPC supplied boats.

Indeed, the Alter Cup Committee appears to have made the best choice possible in a very difficult situation. We have got to give credit to these guys for that ; even if they did foul up just a little bit in the delivery.

Wouter

But is the Viper F16 or F104? Both classes can claim the design.

Well, I don't know really.

Do you think the fact that AHPC themselves call it a "F16 Viper" on their webpage and show it with "F16" lettering in the sails be a hint ?

http://www.ahpc.com.au/Models/B_Viper.htm


I'm just a dumb European, so could you please explain the following AHPC write-up to me ?




Wouter

I think that was joke, Wout. Some of you guys are wound way too tight!

Hi Kevin, That is great that the Viper is the choice for the Alter Cup. But as an ex-Hobie-16 racer, that would've been so sweet to race one with a spin. Very exciting and challenging. Matt and I loved racing the H-16, wish there were more around here. But we are also loving the F-16. If you can't beat 'em on the H-16, join on a spin boat.

Ok so the USSA and Multihull board wanted a spin h-16. The date was set to use boats already bieng used for 2 other events. hobie class refused the boats because of the spin issue, Another 16 foot spin boat was chosen. Sorry but the h-16 communitee has no reason to be upset. This same issue happened on the tornado for the olympics. I.E. put spins on or your out. Now tornado's are pushing the spin technology and sail plans leading the pac. If not it would be the I-20,m-20 or fox in the olympics I love my hobie but if they decided to not make a spin boat in my class i'd buy a nacra or capricorn. The 16 is a great class and some of the best sailors i've met but to turn down a chance to race them with spin is just ludricris.
Thank you AHPC for filling a need and helping out.

Thanks, Eric - the link off the Alter Cup home page was broken.

2004 Alter Cup Results / Boat Normally Sailed / How they got there:
(source)
1) Mike Montague - Hobie 16 - Petition
2) Annie Nelson - Hobie 16 - Petition
3) Dan Kulkoski - Hobie 16 - Hobie Wave Champion (rotating slot, A-Class rep not attending)
4) Bill Jeffers - Hobie 16 - Petition
5) Rich McVeigh - Hobie 16 - Area C 1st place
6) Hobie P. Alter - Hobie 16 - Petition
7) Tom / Sue Korzeniewski - Hobie 16 - Petition
8) Jamie Diamond - Hobie 16 / Mystere 4.3 - Petition (no Olympic rep)
9) Greg Thomas - Tiger / Hobie 16 - Petition
10) Bill Kast - Hobie 16 / Hobie 17 - Petition
11) Ken Marshack - Hobie 18 / A-Cat - Area H 1st place
12) Kirk Newkirk - N20 / Hobie 20 - Hobie 20 Nationals
13) Bob Merrick - Hobie 16 - Petition
14) Jim Sajdak - Hobie 14 - Area G 1st place
15) Paul Hess - Hobie 16 - Hobie 16 NA Champion
16) Dan Delave - Hobie 16 / Tiger - Petition
17) Bret Sullivan - Hobie 16 - Youth Representative
18) Kevin Rejda - NACRA 6.0 - 3rd place N6.0 NA Nationals
19) Mike Ferrara - N-20 - Area A/B 4th place
20) Chris Sawyer - N-17 - N-17 Nationals

These statistics don't lie - half the spots were awarded by petition. Of the ten qualifying regattas, five Areas did not send any representatives and only three sent their actual winner.

Draw what conclusions you want, but I think that a lot of "spinnaker snobs" punted when they found out what boat the 2004 Alter Cup was going to be sailed in. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

I think the same sentiment was running this year - Brent's comment and Kevin's attitude speak volumes.

I am usually up to speed with much of what is going in in the HCA. I heard nothing about division chairs being surveyed about the 16 with spi. Maybe it didn't have a chance to make it to the local fleet meeting level.
I think the Hobie class should let our leaders make decisions when neccessary.
I am quite sure if I was in Chris's shoes I would have spoke with my vice chair and race director and let them know I was going to support the one time change and allow the Alter cup to add the spi. I don't see a problem. It doesn't change class rules and it is not an HCA event.
It seems that in recent years(IMO) that when the HCA has had chance to offer an olive branch to the rest of the sailing community we shoot ourselves in the foot.

It is hilarious. Complete jack-in-the-box with a hair trigger. But I guess we are sailing for sheep stations so I should wisen up!

Pat Bisesi for HCA President...voting begins today you know
Hell, you have any political aspirations for the oval office? I will write you in for that too!

OK, Pat - why don't we all go out and buy spin kits for our 16's and just get it over with?

The IHCA was set to pounce on this - "US SAILING Endorses H-16 w/spin!" was the title of their press release. How long do you think it would take for the spin to become fully class legal? Hobie Cat Europe has fought a subversive campaign to make it fully legal for the past 5 years and all it would take is a "one-time event" in the US to have them invalidate all the work we've done to keep it in check.

There are some interesting 'throwaway' comments in this thread and I'm increasingly intrigued. I don't actually care what boat the Alter Cup is sailed on as it's none of my business and it looks as though the Hobie guys are entitled to be pissed that they weren't told first that an alternative boat has been chosen.

What intrigues me is the apparent massive resistance to put a spin on the H16. I am genuinely puzzled. Surely fitting a spin would give the H16 a new lease of life at not too great a cost? I've sailed several H16s and loved every minute of it - even the 'instant' pitchpole with no real warning!! but I can see that fitting a spin will add a whole new, exciting aspect. Watching the H16s with spin at Carnac this year, it was fascinating to see how fast they could be around the course and on the return-to-beach leg at the end of the day we were all weaving in and out with H16s up there with F18s, Bimares etc. It was cool to see.

Why is there so much resistance to even making the spin an option in the US? And why the allegation that HCEurope has fought a 'subversive' campaign to make spins legal? What's subversive? What are they trying to subvert? I'm not trying to provoke a sh!t storm, I'm trying to understand the reasoning .....

I tried doing a search on here without much success - does anyone know if there's a thread on here where the reasons for not wanting to adopt a spin on the H16 was discussed?

I'll repeat.
Not a HCA event. Not changing our class rules.
I am against the spi for our class.
The ISAF womens was already sailed on a H16 with spin a few years back.
If the Hobie Cat company wants to provide boats with a spi, a set of wings, an add on center board and a third trap for your flying monkey for a NON-HCA event I don't see why the HCA should even be involved.
I know what the Alter cup rules say.
Perception matters, and HCA has not been perceived well.

On the flip side if Chris, Pat and Matt chose to say no the the question, I would support that to.
I always go back to the Camel being a Horse built by committee.

I assure you that nobody on the Multihull Committee has any interest in promoting or not promoting a one design class or a modified class. Nor is there any interest or underlying current in making some statement about how the Hobie 16 fits in the world. It's a championship that's sailed on multihulls and that's what they're after. That's all there is to it.

If there are some other political and worldy considerations, it has nothing to do with this championship committee.

John, I'll give you the short story:
We (meaning the US) have learned our lesson with the 14/Turbo and the 18/Magnum/SX/Formula. By introducing variants to existing classes, you only split the class. There is no net gain. You want to race with a spin? Great! Get an F16, F18 or any number of other classes. You want to race one-design in big fleets with a lot of tough competition? Get a Hobie 16.

HCE first tried to make the spinnaker class legal in 2003, at the IHCA AGM in Singapore (Tiger Worlds). They succeeded in getting the spec included in the class rules, but to be used only for "special youth events". This was primarily in response to ISAF's desire to have a spinnaker catamaran for the Youth Worlds. Every IHCA AGM since 2003 they try for a little more. They have stretched the envelope whenever they could - the ISAF Worlds event that Pat mentioned is one example. Another - the H-16 spin was spec'd in the NOR for the IHCA women's worlds in 2005 and we called them out on it. I call that subversive.

Less than 3 years ago, we conducted a survey in the North American region - over 80% of Hobie 16 racers did not want the spinnaker. That's a pretty significant mandate.

Talking about attitude ! I understand that we must all bow to the greatest one-design fleet in the USA and yell out HAIL ! three times in a row, but why do you think that people should do anything other then what they consider attractive ?

If say a skilled F18 doesn't get all warm and fuzzy when thinking about racing Hobie 16's in an Alter Cup event then why is he not free to thank for that honour and not go ?

Why on earth should he be ashamed of himself ?

Be called a snob ?


I think you have got things a bit mixed up here

Wouter

My understanding (now) is the HCA NA is one single vote on the council, and IHCA mandates the rules. My thoughts were in-line with Pat's, what could it hurt for one event?

Hey Wouter, I can send you a few good pictures of my Hobie 16 if you're setting up a shrine......KABOOM

Pat
With all due respect
We have already heard this type of argument from Hobie Europe. First it was a one-time event for the ISAF Youth Worlds. Then the argument that the Youth need to train with the spinnaker so we got pushed into class youth events. Even then Hobie Europe swore up and down that is was only for youth events. It was a short time after that they pushed through the Hobe 16 Spi for the Women's event at ISAF Worlds. Guess what the next step was. The women need to train at class events. See a trend here? The Hobie 16 class is now split in Europe (even for adults). The rest of the world has rejected this trend. This is all way more important to the class than one silly Alter cup regatta.

BTW: The HCA Board of Dircetors voted no to this Alter cup question.

would this be the same discussion if they said race the Tornado as "classic rig" its not the current configuration legal. Would the tornado association allow that? Same argument isn't it?

No not the same at all. The Olypics is a completely different ball of wax.

The subversive part is that our class Executive Director is in league with Hobie Europe and working against the expressed will of the class.

Now that's funny!

Draw what conclusions you want, but I think that a lot of "spinnaker snobs" punted when they found out what boat the 2004 Alter Cup was going to be sailed in. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

Matt,

I agree with 99% of what you post both here and on SA, but I have to take issue with this. Just speaking for our team, we raced nearly 100 Tiger or F18 starts this year, including the NAs and the Alter Elims - and that doesn't even include Melges 24 and 32 starts. Even if we won the Alter Elims (which we only sailed to support our Area L fleet and US Sailing), we would have declined the invite to the Alter Cup. It has nothing to do with snobery, our team weighs 360lbs combined and our focus is on F18 (and we all know that competive weight even for a Tiger is 330)- why would we expend another regatta date to fly across the country to jump in a H16 when we know that we would be uncompetitive from the get go due to weight, I am sure the N20 guys would point that out as well.

FWIW - from what I have seen this year (my first season back in cats in 15 years), the Hobie 16 should always be used as the Hobie class to promote entry for new sailors or intros into Cat sailing and should be sailed without a kite. It is a great WW fleet as is, and also a great entry boat into large competitive cat fleets. No snobery, but as experienced sailors that weigh 170-180 each, my crew and I would have no real interest in competing in the event if sailed in H16s, with or without a kite.

Really, sometimes I feel the Hobie 16 fleet has to get over itself, there is a lot of other sailing going on in the world.



Paul Andrepont
Hobie Tiger USA 2477

Try being 200lbs on a Hobie 14. Question: What is the sweet spot for weight on the F16? I know zippo about them.

Oh Lord, dont start Wouter on this, please retract that question before he sees it...!!!!

Seems like when Wouter speaks, people die.

You guys are making a fine case out of why the Hobie 16 might have been a questionable candidate for this year's championship. Just look at all of the controversy and international angst!

And don't get me started on Wouter.

Paul, we've never met and I don't want you to take this the wrong way - but if that's not a snobbish, condescending comment, then I don't know what is. I feel like I've been patted on the head and told, "There, there - don't get so upset. When you get done with your starter boat, then you can race on the big boys' boat."

What's preventing you from getting a 115-125 lb crew to sail with on a 16? Afraid of a little competition? I think it's time the spinnaker snobs stop hiding behind their sweet Portsmouth ratings and start racing mano a mano.

How about we start doing the area eliminations without Portsmouth numbers? Straight one-design just like all the other US SAILING ladder events. It's only a matter of time before we won't find a manufacturer willing to supply new boats.

Thanks for the potted history Matt - it does explain some of the comments and angst that I've seen.

I guess it's only right to respect the view of the majority whether or not you agree with it, however I can't help but feel that the Hobie camp takes itself far, far too seriously what with this and its attitude toward other classes (the infamous Hobie edict springs to mind). Sometimes people just don't help themselves to be better thought of!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!

The horse and buggy has been chosen. Let the prepartions begin!

Bob

Questionable candidate would be strong wording; I mean, one of the top sailors on a 16 from Minnesota is the size of Bigfoot, and crushes everyone he sails against. Min weight be damned. If non weight sensitive boats were the criteria, the Cougar Catamaran would be an ideal choice then. Its a friggin tank, and doesnt give a crap how fat you are.

Heres an idea...
Monday Race Hobie 16
Tuesday F16
Wednesday F18
Thursday Hobie 18
Friday Hobie 16 with spin(JK) A Cat-crew/skip trade off

If you want to see who the champ is, then give everyone a chance on thier brand of boat. Mix it up, see who wins it.
Now if Hobie, AHPC, NACRA, Marstrom, and Vector will all show up with some boats, then we will be fair. Kevin, get on it!

sure, Bob, whatever you say...

Now you're sounding like a US Sailing bureaucrat.

As a former CSYC Cat sailor and a Tiger sailor I am sure we will meet sometime in the coming year - if we had met, you would learn that I am involved in youth coaching, helping manage/organize olympic youth clinics on the west coast and feel that the two most important one designs are the Laser and the H16, becuase they are entry level WW (cost not ability) and and offer some of the best competition (you read my post wrong which is easy on the internet).

As far as my sailing - never afraid of competition - I try not to race PHRF and I have only sailed one Portsmith event in my life - simply becuase I believe that Formula (F18) and OD (I race Tigers, Lasers, M24s and M32s) are the only true way to get a near even playing field, big fleets and where people do not whine about ratings. However I would not compete in a US Sailing monohull championship event in 420s or 470s with our crew weighting a total 360lbs either.

That said - sailing the US Sailing championships have never been high on my list of events H16 or not, and as a Hobie dues payer (for both myself and my crew) I hate seeing the class slinging mud on the internet. So they chose another boat this year, in my mind, this event is not as important or fair (someone always has a technical or weight advantage) as a N20, F18, F16, Tiger or H16 NAs. You do awesome work - just let this go.

P

Let's get my position clear here; I'm a fan of the Hobie 16 and I firmly believe that the 16 is one of the most difficult boats to master and requires a high degree of skill to sail well. For that matter, I also believe that a championship held on Hobie Waves would be one of the most competitive and tightly contested events ever seen. I was all in favor of the Hobie 16 for 2009 so please don't pin me as someone anti-Hobie or anti-16. I'm just saying that you guys yourselves (the H16 rank and file) are strongly divided about the configuration of the boat and the mention of using it in this event has apparently fueled some international controversy. If I were still chairman, I would not want to be caught in the middle between Hobie USA and Hobie Europe with both trying to make some sort of statement to the other through my championship. The championship is about talented sailors sailing multihulls. The boat should make little difference in the scope of the event on it's own - the decision to use and in what configuration for the Hobie 16 is clearly causing a lot of problems (that I had no previous knowledge of until this thread). This is the point I was trying to make.

Ha ha ha !

But they may indeed come in handy. I'm making myself one of those old celtic shrines. The kind that gets torched in celebration at the winter solstace.

Wouter

Maybe the type of boat used at the AlterCup should not be revealed until after all the qualifiers have been sailed?

With regard to the H16 class, some people make a conscious decision to sail "oldschool" for whatever reason.
If you want to sail with a spin there are much better alternatives anyway, the H16 should just stay the way it is.

A new controversy, and just in time! Elections almost over, possible 11th boat being added back to the olympics, getting tired of beating on US Sailing, we need new blood.

My order of conspiritors (in order): Jake, Kevin, JW, Vectorworks Matt (yes you), Matt (Bounds, Miller, maybe both), Rick for updating the forum, Mary also for updating the forum, that Rhody Rhody Piper Sail guy.

The only one I dont blame here is Wouter, that would be like blaming a turd for stinking.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Srsly BK... you had me rolling over here.

I second that. Actually he was almost starting to sound like he Didn't have an agenda, and maybe had a sense of humor.
So BK tell us how you really feel 'bout da Woot.

p.s. I think this whole conflagration boils down to size issues.

I was going to stay out of this ,but seeing as I did get to vote within my own division on the Hobie 16 with Spi issue I thought I should pipe in and be heard(or seen)
My initial response when I heard of the Alter Cup being sailed on the 16 with Spi was great go for it.My thinking was any exposure for the class was good.Later after hearing some of the possible long term effects to the class I recended my vote and said no.Upon further thought and if it did make a difference I would probably say yes again( I will explain later)
Couple of observations about some of the earlier posts.Brent C. I know you and consider you a friend ,but I have to agree withh Matt B. on this,the Alter Cup should never be about the boat.Also in terms of the area K qualifier being competitive,I am considered in area K and have been down to three regattas in the area and I never heard it mentioned once.
On the other side I read Gina Mcdonalds comments and smiled.Hey we miss you and Matt here in division 7.You guys would be awsome on a 16 with Spi.
Interesting Chris you brought up Bigfoot.I am pretty sure you are talking about my good friend Teddy Jagger.(Arguably one of the best cat sailors in the Midwest).I had a good chat with Ted on this whole spi issue.Now for this to make any sence you have to know Ted ,he is one of the most layed back ,common sence thinkers I have ever met.(he uses the expression "don't get itchy underwear").Ted is a long time 16 sailor and recently has outfitted his boat with a spi.He still races the 16 with out the Spi but he really likes sailing with the spi.Couple things we got to talking about is that maybe the 16 does need some new life injected into it(that really was hard for me to say).I mean look over in Europe where they are drawing 40+ youth teams to thier championship.Yes I know sailing is on a different scale over there,but maybe getting some more youth and excitement into the class is a good thing.Hey I'm 50 years old this year(another tough one to say) but I did not feel that old at the Nationals.Maybe that is not a bad thing but I remember when I went to my first Canadian Nationals and John Liefield won he (was 40) and I thought he was old.The point is here in North America you just do not see that many up and coming youth teams.So maybe short term for us 50+ guys keeping the status quo on the 16 is good,but long term not sure how long us elders can sustain the class.

Im just kidding with Woot. I hope he makes another Spring Fever some day.

Jake, I got 'cha on that. I didn't mean to imply you're working against Hobie or the 16 or anything. You're right too, the Wave thing would be awesome. A bit boring in light air, but what the hell.
Wouter- If you burn the pics of my 16 in some Celtic ceremoney, I would like to see the vids on Youtube. Animal Sacrifice too? Sicko.
Madge, I indeed was speaking of Ted. BTW: Everyone, Mike Madge from Deadstinkyfish Canada is the new North American Hobie 16 Class Representative. Check out their site at www.hc16.org

Big Momma said "I approve this message!"

????? there is a actual place called "Deadstinkyfish" ?????


.... and the population is how many .... if I may ask?

Harry

Absolutely no worries mate, I'm enjoying these replies. Good fun actually.

And I believe that anyone dispensing "it" should also "take it" standing up and smiling !


Personally, I think the idea of doing the ALter Cup 2009 in the Hobie 16 + spi was a good option. And I also believe that that would have been the way it had gone down if the reported controversy between Hobie USA and Hobie EU didn't come about and soured the project. I think the Alter Cup committee made a wise decision to not fuel this controversy by coming out in favour of either side.

I'm also convinced that AHPC/Viper F16 would just as easily have rescheduled their bit to 2010.

The rest is just a play at some fun. And as a result I fully expect to be made fun of !

So keep it coming !

Wouter

There might be a place called that,but I am from Thunder Bay ON,population 125,000."Deadstinkyfish" Chris you are one funny guy.You come on up to Thunder Bay and I will show you how to catch some real fish.BTW you won't need your rod and reel I will show you the manly way of fishing.

Sorry, I just like to tease Madge.
Thunder Bay is a big town with a Pizza Hut and a Bowling alley and everything (I have been to both, but didn't understand the tiny pins)and YES Madge, you have better beer than us.
Anyway, Madge is the go to guy for the Hobie 16 people with anything you want to talk about. www.hc16.org
And tossing dynamite in a river and picking up fish parts all over the shore IS NOT FISHING!

The Vipers are available because they are to be in Clearwater for the Gallactic Challenge in November. The manufacturer/dealer gets to choose when and where the Alter Cup is scheduled.

Kevin,

Props for getting the ball rolling on this.

I wouldn't have wanted to get involved in the middle of Hobie class politics either.

Kevin,

Does this mean you're saying there will be 20 vipers available for the GlobalGalactic Challenge ?(I don't think the F16 are already known beyond planet earth... however some are really flying ;-) )

Don't know about the Galactic challenge, only they we have been promised 11 boats for our regatta

Just a little more information, . . .It is almost certain that the event dates will be the latter half of August. Jill is working hard to secure a venue, but it may be a couple of weeks before it is nailed down. She has 2 boats coming soon that are for sale at an attractive price. More are coming later. The exchange rate between the US dollar and the Aussie dollar is very favorable now. As things firm up I will continue to post.