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great 2nd amendment video

Posted By: bullswan

great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 05:12 PM

no comments from me (some of you will be pleased to see) except to say.... WOW.

Shall we have a captioning contest for Chuck Schumer?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675]
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 05:54 PM

Are you talking about supporting the 2nd amendment for the guy that shot up people in the restaurant or the woman that wished she had her handgun in her purse at the time?

They each seem to pontificate both positions on the issue.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 06:13 PM

great point. I'm not a gun person. But I lean away from those that think they can legislate safety generally and saving us from those whackos who pull into a place to shoot up the place seems to be impossible. Might reduce the occurances if whackos don't know what they might run into? Kinda like those towns that see less robberies when the robbers don't know who has weapons to repel intruders? Or places with lots of Lojacks have less car thefts? Just a thought.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 06:35 PM

uh.... whacko's... by definition ... ignore logic.

So the gun lobby logic which is "gun's will deter whackos" is fatally flawed!

Even less likely is the chance that somebody with a legal conceal carry weapon will intervene in this crime by a wacko.

The probability that a crime by a rational or wacko criminal will be detered by conceal carry law is far less then the probability that a conceal carry gun will result in a crime of passion or accidental discharge.... (See NY Giant football player in a bar as a recent data point) So... this is a public policy issue.

The Court has spoken about the right to own a firearm (see DC case)...

it's the flawed logic that you are entitled to carry the weapon in public that is in dispute and so this is a matter of public policy... not consitutional right.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 07:13 PM

Quote
The Court has spoken about the right to own a firearm (see DC case)...


OK, I can't stay out of this one. Are you going to call the Court when the police can't get there fast enough? Do you think DC is the safest city in the country? And the Burress incident, even if he had a concealed permit, it was violating the law by having it in a place that served alchohol. Gun control in DC has done nothing to make the city ANY safer against gun violence. More laws will not keep someone from comming in and shooting you. TOTAL gun bans will not keep anyone safe. Do you think if tomorrow, all guns were outlawed, you would be safe from ever being robbed or shot? The gun isn't the problem, the idiots who commit stupid acts of violence are. Cars are used to commit more acts of violence every year than guns. Are you willing to give up your car? And as a matter of Constitutional Right, yes a "Law Abiding Citizen" has the right to keep and bear arms!
Quote
a conceal carry gun will result in a crime of passion or accidental discharge.... (See NY Giant football player in a bar as a recent data point)
Check your "data point"...he's being prosecuted because he broke the law! Do you think any other laws would have prevented this?
Quote
uh.... whacko's... by definition ... ignore logic.
You seem to ignore the logic here, should I continue?
If one chooses to keep thier head in the sand, they should get Kevlar underpants.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 07:31 PM

Is a double barrel shotgun the 'catamaran' of the gun world?

J wink
Posted By: John Williams

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 07:36 PM

C'mon. Does this really belong here? Her testimony is no sadder than this.

There is no winning side on the debate. Every cited case has an inverse. The Framers intended to prevent another instance of a foreign occupying force facing a legislatively-disarmed populace by making sure militias could keep and bear arms. All the nonsense since about 1798 about it is contrary to the original premise.


Posted By: H17cat

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 08:11 PM

John, that is a sad story. Only hope the Texas Troopers now make a quicker response. The shooter should have never made it to the Troopers car. Also, what was with the lack of response when the other Troopers arrived?

Recent local gang related shootings have again pointed to the need for self protection. Will be picking up a few more boxes of shells for the 12 gage.

Caleb
Posted By: John Williams

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by H17cat
Only hope the Texas Troopers now make a quicker response. The shooter should have never made it to the Troopers car.


That's my point, Caleb. If only. If only she'd had her gun in her purse, if only one of the drug charges would have stuck and Hennard hadn't bought his two handguns, if only someone had decided that Melvin Hale's interpretation of the Second Amendment was a little off... cold, dead hands, right? Let's talk about sailing instead.
Posted By: tshan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Let's talk about sailing instead.


I heard a full container of spanking new AHPC boats are headed to FL (USofA) to be assembled and distributed across the Eastern US. A couple different sized boats... that might be worth talking abt.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 08:40 PM

nice. wink
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 08:57 PM

Yes, back to sailing!
The only gun I care about is the start gun!
Had a Hobie training session last sunday.
Only about 4C and a little snow and was still sweating like crazy, gotta love drysuit technology.
Anyone interested in some pics from the new F18?
I'm thinking about making the trip to the boat show this weekend.
Posted By: Mamaloe

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 09:12 PM

4C ? That must explain why it took one full short track race for the lining in our daggerboard cases to thaw enough so that could finally jam the foils down (and that's where we kept them for the rest of the afternoon).

Bit of a surreal experience, but loved the crowd. We'll be back this Sunday.

Mamaloe

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
The Framers intended to prevent another instance of a foreign occupying force facing a legislatively-disarmed populace by making sure militias could keep and bear arms. All the nonsense since about 1798 about it is contrary to the original premise.


Ah no, it is in place to keep the Government in check. A dis-armed citizenry is easier to control, where as armed citizens have the capacity to rise up and overthrow a corrupt tyranical gov't.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by John Williams
The Framers intended to prevent another instance of a foreign occupying force facing a legislatively-disarmed populace by making sure militias could keep and bear arms. All the nonsense since about 1798 about it is contrary to the original premise.


Ah no, it is in place to keep the Government in check. A dis-armed citizenry is easier to control, where as armed citizens have the capacity to rise up and overthrow a corrupt tyranical gov't.


I really didn't want to contribute to the extension of this topic -

- how many of you really believe that the people, without the support of the military, could actually overthrow the US Government?

- how many of you believe that there will ever be a time when such a maneuver is necessary? (i.e. have we evolved beyond that culture and society?).


I'm not proclaiming pro-gun or anti-gun. I don't own any guns but I don't really care if you own one or want to. The crazies will be crazy with or without them and if you take away gun ownership rights, there will potentially be a long painful period when the dishonest people have them and the honest people don't. I do, however, take issue with some of the nutty arguments presented by both sides.

Look at what just happened in Thailand. It wasn't completely peaceful, but the people stood up and through largely non-violent means, managed to make a major change in the government. Granted, it's much more complicated than that - the protesters might not actually be the majority opinion so the action and end result may be questionable as it relates to justice. They also appear to have had idle support (through inaction) from the military. It was a big whopping pain in the butt for everyone else involved - but they accomplished something through financial and political hardship and without abundant death and destruction.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah no, it is in place to keep the Government in check. A dis-armed citizenry is easier to control, where as armed citizens have the capacity to rise up and overthrow a corrupt tyranical gov't.


Karl, we're saying only slightly different things. The "foreign occupying force" the Framers were talking about were the British troops being forcibly housed in American homes. Even before the Declaration, the Colonials had come to see themselves as something other than British subjects. So to put it another way, yes, the Second Amendment was conceived to provide for armed militias which the King (our government at the time) had outlawed. Remember that the Framers' absolute and greatest fear was the emergence of another King following the Revolution. The armed militias were an insurance policy.

edit: crap. I meant to say "I'm going sailing this weekend on a Hobie 16!"
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
- how many of you really believe that the people, without the support of the military, could actually overthrow the US Government?

- how many of you believe that there will ever be a time when such a maneuver is necessary? (i.e. have we evolved beyond that culture and society?).


- Depends on who's side the military is on. Technology isn't everything, but it does leave the scale a bit lop sided.

-We're closer to collapse of the government everyday. It gets more corrupt and vile with every new law, and every turning of the screws to the people. Whether or not it'll every happen, I don't know. I think we take a 1/2 step towards it every day. The trouble is going half way never gets you there.


There is a real good chance that I will die fighting our Government. If our Second Amendment Rights are revoked, as they almost were this past spring, out of my cold dead hands will more than likely become a reality. I will not surrender anything, to anyone for any reason. Its important to me, and many close to me who are willing to do the same.
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
[quote=H17cat]Let's talk about sailing instead.


Ok. How do we dump the antiquated Portsmouth system and adopt something more user friendly? Like SCHRS for instance.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Only about 4C and a little snow and was still sweating like crazy, gotta love drysuit technology.

I was putting up Christmas lights outside yesterday and got sunburned. blush
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 11:39 PM

Do you trust your government enough to leave yourself with no recourse? Seems most that oppose are the ones that hate our President now.

Criminals DON'T obey laws,that's what makes them criminals.
You just make it easier for them.

Karl, my guess would be your actual firearms are safe, they'll go after the ammo first.

Jake, I think you don't give the civilian population enough credit, you might be surprised what they'd accomplish if they had to.Don't worry, We'll take care of you as long as you can cook.

Mark, A tip for ya .Your a$$ is the thing your sitting on, a hole in the ground is a thing you dig with a shovel. There is obviously some confusion on your part.

No one seemed to have a problem with off topic on "drill,baby,drill" so what's wrong with this? Don't like the topic?

Todd

Posted By: pepin

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 11:41 PM

W.T.F. this has to do with cat sailing? For f*** sake, move your political discussions somewhere else.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/02/08 11:50 PM

Why does it bother you guys (that are demanding a return to sailing talk)so much that a conversation begins on a non sailing topic? Can't you just leave the thread and go start the topic you want to talk about? I have NEVER understood that logic. Same reasoning with protesting objectionable TV shows or, for some, Talk Radio. Can't you just turn it off and walk away or does it bother you sooooo much that someone else is having a good time?

Explain that to me. Please.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 12:02 AM

We have the right to bear arms. We have to obey the laws that allow us to bear arms or we go to jail. The only issue that I have is with the gun maufacterers and the ammo that is sold to the public that is far more deadly than anything that is needed to protect yourself against harm or loss of property. for example, an assault rifle that will hold 30 rounds of armor peircing Eagle Claw type bullets that will kill you if it hits you anywhere on your body. This is marketing to criminals that fight against law enforcement for the sake of profit.
A felon cannot buy a hand gun from a gun shop but will easily buy one from a "collector" at a gun show. What kind of crap is that?

EPA
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Karl, my guess would be your actual firearms are safe, they'll go after the ammo first.


Key term being "ammo first". The plan I've heard is a %500 tax on ammunition. Pisses me off. I'm hoping reloading supplies don't go up at the same rate. I'll be outta luck with rimfire .22 ammo.
Posted By: ncik

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 01:18 AM

It's like I've always said, if you don't like something, shoot it! Problem solved. eek

Wonder if that would work with laser dinghies.

Note heavy sarcasm.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 01:30 AM

Quote
A felon cannot buy a hand gun from a gun shop but will easily buy one from a "collector" at a gun show. What kind of crap is that?


Not entirely correct. Private sales at gunshows aren't regulated like the sales at the booths. EVERY booth selling ANY firearm must be FFL compliant. The media seems to state otherwise but they are full of $#!t. It's the Joe Nobody with a gun for sale walking around trying to sell it that isn't regulated. I have seen first hand someone refuse to sell their private gun to an individual. I think law abiding gun owners are getting more savy to who they do business with.

Interesting fact: In WWII, Hitler had a detailed plan to invade the US since all our troops were in the Pacific and Europe. It could have worked but the ONE thing that kept him from following through with the invasion, was that Rommell informing him that US CITIZENS OWNED GUNS. He was afraid his troops would fail against the PRIVATELY OWNED FIREARM AND THE PEOPLE OF THE US. I think he was right about failure.

One other thing, not to nitpick but this illustrates the missinformation the media feeds us about gun crap; An armor piercing bullet does far less tissue damage than a hollow point bullet (you mentioned Eagle Claw but I think you meant the Black Talon handgun bullets). The armor piercing will penetrate further since the bullet deforms less and pass clean through with less tissue damage than even most lead bullets. Most normal hunting ammo for rifles will penetrate police body armor but it's not called "armor piercing".

We all have the right to stand up for what we believe is right. I have nothing against any of you who believe opposite of me. I simply choose my stance based on the primal instinct of being able to fend for myself and not relying on anybody else to do it for me. I'll try to shut up now.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 01:31 AM

Quote
There is a real good chance that I will die fighting our Government.


Do you seriously believe that? I'm truly sorry you live with such a cloud in your life.

PS...Are you SURE that you don't live in South Carolina?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Do you seriously believe that? I'm truly sorry you have to live with such a cloud in your life.


With our current administration, and the possibility of removing the 2nd Amendment, yeah. Its not a cloud, it is what it is.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 02:07 AM

Chummy, you are right on all counts. Why should Joey Bagodonuts be able to sell pieces of his collection to a felon with out documentation. That is the problem. Legit gun dealers sell at gun shows as well, legitimatly. And yes, claw bullets are on the other end of armor piercing rounds but my point is the same... do I need this stuff to protect my family in my home? where my children play? Maybe I'll sell the Dodge Ram and get a tank.

See you at Tradewinds oe Steeplechase. I'll be supporting you, with a side arm.

E
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Jake
Do you seriously believe that? I'm truly sorry you have to live with such a cloud in your life.


With our current administration, and the possibility of removing the 2nd Amendment, yeah. Its not a cloud, it is what it is.


Karl: "This too shall pass"- Old Smart Guy. I felt the same way when yer buddy "Dub-yah" got elected. Have a beer, fergit about it. 'Sides Saxby Chambliss just got elected down in Georgia. The Dems will have to resort to old fashioned politics for a while. The Republic is safe.

But just in case. . . http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3D50%2Bcaliber%2Bsniper%2Brifle&w=1652&h=1048&imgurl=www.inetres.com%2Fgp%2Fmilitary%2Finfantry%2Frifle%2FM107%2FM107_1.jpg&size=327.3kB&name=M107_1.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.inetres.com%2Fgp%2Fmilitary%2Finfantry%2Frifle%2FM107.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.inetres.com%2Fgp%2Fmilitary%2Finfantry%2Frifle%2FM107.html&p=50+caliber+sniper+rifle&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=224&oid=359cae1987748328&tit=M107_1.jpg&sigr=11rjbqpst&sigi=11q62q1a1&sigb=12185vm7p

If you buy three they'll throw in a box of ammo.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 02:40 AM

Black Talons"Claw bullets" are illegal, and have been for quite some time.
Joey Bagodonuts can only sell long guns ( rifles and shotguns) at a show without having a purchase permit from the buyer.
If you'd like to protect your family in your home with inferior ammo, such as readily available jacketed ammo then you are a threat to your neighbors as well. Ammo that opens up stops when it hits stuff.The jacketed stuff rolls on through.
I'm sure I'm wasting my time with this as it sounds like most who've argued don't seem to care about facts or reality. If the knowledge base of the non-gun owning person is indicative of the info in this thread, I'm happy they don't own guns, just don't try to take everyone elses, and learn the facts before you type a bunch of B.S. Like Lee said the media has you snookered.
Pete,
How about finding me some stats for a crime committed with a .50 cal. sniper rifle.Then try baseball bat.
Todd
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 02:44 AM

. . . and three or four sets of brand new Goodall sails! wink
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Tikipete
If you buy three they'll throw in a box of ammo.


.50cal is so freakin expensive to shoot. Like $7+ a squeaze for match ammo, so if I buy 3 and sell the other two to convicts that could be a good deal laugh.
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Tikipete
If you buy three they'll throw in a box of ammo.


.50cal is so freakin expensive to shoot. Like $7+ a squeaze for match ammo, so if I buy 3 and sell the other two to convicts that could be a good deal laugh.


And you wonder why some of us want to license guns and ammo?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 03:19 AM

Ok try this. It might clear things up.Doubt it, but who knows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7ldL1LM&feature=related
Posted By: H17cat

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 04:52 AM

OK, agree the 50 cal is not a good choice. But my 12 gage pump with 18.5 inch barrel, is legal, and effective. Turns out it is now the weapon of choice in Iraq, for house to house clean up.

Cpt. USAR, Ordnance Corp 1959-1967
Posted By: erice

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 05:46 AM

first the whales now gun debates

this forum's going down hill.....

imho
Posted By: Mary

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 06:25 AM

When I started Catamaran Sailor magazine back in 1995, I named it "Sailor" rather than "Sailing," because I wanted it to be about the people as much as about the sport. I wanted to be able to cover all the things that interest sailors -- not just sailing. We all have other interests, like skiing, woodworking, golf, tennis, bicycling, camping, car renovations, and on and on.

I like to think that these forums, which are a spinoff from the magazine, are a place where sailors can share their other interests and activities besides sailing.

I'm not big on the politics threads, but nobody has to read them if they are not interested. At least you know that you are talking to fellow sailors, no matter what the subject.
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by H17cat
OK, agree the 50 cal is not a good choice. But my 12 gage pump with 18.5 inch barrel, is legal, and effective. Turns out it is now the weapon of choice in Iraq, for house to house clean up.

Cpt. USAR, Ordnance Corp 1959-1967


I think the 12 ga. pump is the original "assualt weapon". Wasn't it invented for trench warfare, circa WWI?

My wife always vetos any weapon I propose. But if I really thought I needed one, it would be a 20 ga. autoloader with #4s and cut down to the legal minimum. That's enough power to take anyone off their feet (if they're inside my house). Most importantly it's "tame" enough I could teach her to use it effectively. Not many ladies want to deal with a 12 gauge!
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 12:23 PM

BRAVO, Mary.....

I was thinking about this last night, but in a way, this topic DOES relate to sailing and sailors..... Follow me on this train of thought.

Sailing, Surfing, (and lots of others) I believe, attracts people who might be traditionally called free-spirits. People who love their sport and don't take kindly to those that want to "regulate" or impede their ability to enjoy their endeavor fully. Awhile back there was a thread on the restrictions California environmentalists wanted to put through (or did put through, I forget) that restricted the growth of catsailing on that coast. Something about ordinances on the what could be dragged on the shore coupled with zoning ordinances on what could be seen from the road etc etc etc.

I think this all falls into the same catagory of OTHERS (Gov't, environmentalists, rules committees) trying to impose their view of the world on others.

AND IT'S GOTTEN WAY OUT OF CONTROL........


O'Reilly last night reported on Washington State allowing an AETHEIST PRONOUNCEMENT next to the traditional Christmas manger.

Olympic Committees deciding not sending catamarans to the Olympics.

Talk Radio needing to be "controlled" and changed with the Fairness (now that's a misnomer) Doctrine.

Liberal Democrats deciding that unions can eliminate (my opinion) a basic American institution of the SECRET BALLOT and coerce enrollment.


It goes on and on..... And here is why these issues reasonate with sailors in my opinion. They go against our core beliefs of just let me be..... Let me go sailing when, where and how I want. Give me water and wind and I'm good.
Heck, I don't like having to even register my sailboats every year and put those ugly numbers and letters on the side.

Emd of Rant.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 12:56 PM

Quote
O'Reilly last night reported on Washington State allowing an AETHEIST PRONOUNCEMENT next to the traditional Christmas manger.


You're not dragging me down this alley.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 01:01 PM

Jake,
I REALLY don't want to drag you anywhere!!!!
(But with your Cape and Leotard you shouldn't be afraid to go anywhere!)

HA!
Greg
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tikipete

And you wonder why some of us want to license guns and ammo?


Just a hint of sarcasm there pete
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mary
When I started Catamaran Sailor magazine back in 1995, I named it "Sailor" rather than "Sailing," because I wanted it to be about the people as much as about the sport. I wanted to be able to cover all the things that interest sailors -- not just sailing.


That's a good way to look at it Mary. And surely if I don't like something, I don't have to read it. I don't want to engage in the political aspects of this forum as I think it might not be good for business. But... for those packin', what do you have in your arsenal?

J
Posted By: Mary

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 05:22 PM

Quote
That's a good way to look at it Mary. And surely if I don't like something, I don't have to read it. I don't want to engage in the political aspects of this forum as I think it might not be good for business. But... for those packin', what do you have in your arsenal?
J

Pepper gel that I keep in my purse. I just have to make sure I don't confuse it with my hair spray, deodorant or insect repellent. eek
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 05:32 PM

grin

J
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 06:22 PM

How many of the weapon onanists here have served in the armed services, and how many of those have used their weapons aginst fellow humans in their service? 0? 1%?
How many of you have given life saving first aid, worked at an ER or even tried to keep a friends blood inside him while waiting for help?

Selling revolvers, pistols and assault rifles like it is done in the US is crazy in my private opinion. Shotguns and rifles are kind of hard to use for muggings and robberies but are weapons of choice in a war or in hunting.
I can own (and do own) shotguns and rifles legally. I had to document what I wanted to use them for, i.e. for what kind of hunting and where. To own a revolver or pistol I would have to be an active member of a pistol club. If I were, I could own one, but could not carry it with me except to and from training, and then unloaded. I have no problem with this system and gun related crime here is mostly family tragedies where the man in the house takes out his rifle when he looses his head in an argument/gets drunk. 6-10 cases like that every year out of a 5mill population.

Die fighting his government.. How ridiculous/scary/immature.

Hitler deterred from invading the US becouse of the handguns amongst the population? Please document. He could hardly get a longer logistics chain to look after, and were not able to even invade the british isles.

Selling pistols/revolvers and assault rifles to ordinary people solves nothing. Spreading the same weapons to criminals and unstable persons makes it even worse. You have a problem with gun related crime you will not be able to solve in our lifetime. There are just too many guns around. Gun control laws would be a start though. The US is not so special that what works elsewhere would not work there as well, but first you would have to stop being afraid.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 06:38 PM

"But... for those packin', what do you have in your arsenal?"

Glock 23 40 cal loaded with Federal 135 grain Hydra-Shoks.

My wife and I both have a carry license.
The range master at the police shooting range we frequent has all but said people are irresponsible if they don't own, and know how to properly use a firearm for their personal/family’s protection...
In most cases by the time law enforcement arrives at the scene of a violent crime "it's" all over and all they can do is make out a report.

My son just completed Marine Boot camp a few months ago and was telling us about the colors they assigned to different levels of personal awareness…he always thought I was a bit too cautious…after boot camp he changed his outlook…seems the color “white” is used to describe those individuals who seem to go thru life with little or no situational awareness…If I were a betting man, I would wager the majority, if not all, of that group is unarmed…

If you want to take the chance with your life, or the lives of your love ones it is your prerogative…just please do not disarm the rest of us law biding citizens, my family and I don’t want to be cast in the role of the victim... even if you are willing to accept that posibility for you and yours.

Regards
Bob
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 06:54 PM

Do you see a difference between armed forces, their tasks and your regular day to day life?
Would you need a gun for protection if the criminals did not carry one? If you are held up at gunpoint, will you try to draw your piece knowing your chances are 2-5%?

Strange how I dont need to carry a gun for protection here, or when travelling.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 06:58 PM

Quote
Selling revolvers, pistols and assault rifles like it is done in the US is crazy in my private opinion.


Some people are just plain interested in them and love shooting them. Just like a car collection, nobody bashes Jay Leno for all the cars he has.

Quote
Die fighting his government.. How ridiculous/scary/immature.


Maybe so in Norway but that is how we became the US. I hope it would never happen again but until 9/11 we had a false sense of security that the US would never be attacked either.

Quote
You have a problem with gun related crime you will not be able to solve in our lifetime. There are just too many guns around. Gun control laws would be a start though.


If that's the case, then everytime I misspell a word, I could just throw away my pen and the problem would be solved.
My point is, the problem isn't with the piece of metal laying there, it's what is in the head of the individual who uses it. The violence can't be blamed on an inanimate object, that's too easy. The problem is much deeper.

Quote
How many of you have given life saving first aid, worked at an ER or even tried to keep a friends blood inside him while waiting for help?

I hate to answer this question but I will. I have had to do this. I tried to give a friend CPR after watching the vehicle he was in rollover and eject him. My first breath into him sent bubbles of blood out the top of his head. Now why do you ask this question?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
Selling revolvers, pistols and assault rifles like it is done in the US is crazy in my private opinion.


Some people are just plain interested in them and love shooting them. Just like a car collection, nobody bashes Jay Leno for all the cars he has.


How many people have Jay killed with his car, and how easy is it to use a hidden car in a holdup or burglary? Packing a car in a shoulder holster kind of limits your options.
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
Die fighting his government.. How ridiculous/scary/immature.


Maybe so in Norway but that is how we became the US. I hope it would never happen again but until 9/11 we had a false sense of security that the US would never be attacked either.


Do you remember the revolution against the english crown and the Boston tea party? How many of your relatives where killed? I have spoken with my family members who fought in 1940 against the nazi invations forces. One of them was part of the french, english and norwegian forces who almost wiped out the nazi forces at Narvik. He was no gun advocate. My fathers uncle was a commando during the WWII. He refused blankly to talk about what he had done during the war, but was no gun advocate either. How many of your veterans are gun advocates?
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
You have a problem with gun related crime you will not be able to solve in our lifetime. There are just too many guns around. Gun control laws would be a start though.


If that's the case, then everytime I misspell a word, I could just throw away my pen and the problem would be solved.
My point is, the problem isn't with the piece of metal laying there, it's what is in the head of the individual who uses it. The violence can't be blamed on an inanimate object, that's too easy. The problem is much deeper.


How many have you killed with your pen? The pen is mightier than the sword, but I definately would like the criminal mugging me to be armed with a BIC pen instead of a Glock.

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
How many of you have given life saving first aid, worked at an ER or even tried to keep a friends blood inside him while waiting for help?

I hate to answer this question but I will. I have had to do this. I tried to give a friend CPR after watching the vehicle he was in rollover and eject him. My first breath into him sent bubbles of blood out the top of his head. Now why do you ask this question?


Becouse so many people have a testosterone relationship to guns and gun use but have no idea about what they do to people. Those who have seen critical injuries know what guns do to people.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:14 PM

Dude, you totally don't get the point. Did I say anything about getting robbed with a Bic pen? Never mind.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Dude, you totally don't get the point. Did I say anything about getting robbed with a Bic pen? Never mind.


I dont have the same cultural blindings you enjoy and see your culture from a different point of view.

Would be interesting to see a statistic on the number of small arms and how the numbers have changed over the years. I bet the rise of Hollywood and the number of small arms are related.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:38 PM

Quote
I dont have the same cultural blindings you enjoy and see your culture from a different point of view.


Ditto.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:41 PM

So if you admit that you have a gun problem in the US, why not look at how others have solved it? Or do you still want to say that the guns are not the problem but people are??
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:57 PM

More people in the U.S. kill themselves with a gun, than kill others. Suicide, not accident.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Hitler deterred from invading the US becouse of the handguns amongst the population? Please document. He could hardly get a longer logistics chain to look after, and were not able to even invade the British isles.


I'm glad somebody else jumped on that statement. I've never heard such a rediculous justification for "the right to bear arms".

More people die from their own guns, or their own family's guns than from somebody else's gun.

I've handled / fired handguns and long guns since I was in high school, but I see no need to own a handgun - and I live just outside Detroit! eek

The only gun I own is a POS single-shot 12 guage shotgun that was last used at a regatta 25 years ago. I'd be afraid to fire anything but blanks from it now (it hasn't been cleaned since then).
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:04 PM

I had heard that same thing, except about the Japanese. A gun in every window, something like that.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:24 PM

WARNING: GRAPHIC ANNALOGY BELOW DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED!***

"Would you need a gun for protection if the criminals did not carry one?"

But they do...and if law biding citizen are disarmed the criminals would be the only ones with guns...why is such a obvious concept so hard for so many to grasp?...we are talking about people who wantonly break the law...they will always find a gun if they want it bad enough… and no government will be able to stop them...it will be just as ineffective as the illicit drug laws...they haven't been able to stop that either.

You said “I don’t need to carry a gun for protection”. That’s fine…no one said you had too…everyone’s circumstances are different. But to paint everyone, every area, and every situation with the same brush is rather presumptuous of you. Some of it goes back to the “White Zone”… one may be sailing in shark infested waters…just because one doesn’t see them, is the danger any less present if you should capsize? No

I would not advise everyone to carry a weapon …it is a huge responsibility, and not for those who like their alcohol, recreational drugs or have self control problem/anger issues…but I can not imagine being defenseless in ones own home…my only protection relying on an overextended police force that might be miles away when I need them.

This discussion is pointless…the media has done a phenomenal job at painting firearms as the cause of all societies ills…On the other hand it is practically impossible to read, or hear anything about an armed citizen saving lives by thwarting violent attacks even though they happen on a regular bases.

***If your worried about something/someone taking the life of the innocents?…look at the statistics of how many people die at the hands of incompetent doctors per year…or the 30 million + babies aborted…funny how some forms of murder are socially acceptable… maybe if we didn’t shoot intruders but sucked their brains out while they were kicking and screaming on the floor it would be more socially acceptable to the anti-gun brigade. Sounds indefensible when it’s framed like that doesn’t it?***

The point many miss is that a firearm levels the field…a 5’-0” slightly built women, a 75 year old grandma/grandpa, a young man in a wheel chair all can defend themselves against a larger/stronger/more skilled attacker if need be. With the ever increasing level of violence, now more than ever, one needs to take personal responsibility for their own protection.

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:38 PM

Here, Here Bob.

One other point people miss is that not everyone has to carry a gun but if those that seek to do harm CAN'T BE SURE IF THEIR PREY (or someone close by)has a weapon also, the glimmer of doubt always exists and who knows if that reduces the number of occurances....

I wish the media would suffer a news blackout for about 6 months and then lets see where we are......

Greg
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:49 PM

Quote
So if you admit that you have a gun problem in the US, why not look at how others have solved it?


I never said that. And the re-quote about Hitler was wrong as well. The story was refferring to all privately owned firearms, not just hand guns.
Posted By: Mary

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:51 PM

I don't need no gun to defend my home -- I have a real whale harpoon standing by my door. It's a pretty heavy-duty item with a VERY sharp pointy end. Wouldn't want it stuck in me. shocked A bullet would be way more better.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:56 PM

Mary, that reminds me when I lived in St.Croix. Gun laws were VERY stringent yet I heard gunshots all the time in town. I slept with my speargun loaded by my bed. BTW with a handgun ban down there, they had more crime per capita than New York City. Can anyone explain that one...anyone....Rolf...anyone?
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 08:57 PM

"I don't need no gun to defend my home -- I have a real whale harpoon standing by my door. It's a pretty heavy-duty item with a VERY sharp pointy end. Wouldn't want it stuck in me. A bullet would be way more better."

Your forgetting the first rule of personal protection..."Never bring a whale harpoon to a gun fight"...LOL

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:07 PM

Mary, be careful about pepper spray indoors. Everyone (including yourself) will most likely be incapacitated.

Although when I worked in the farms, we used teargas in the soil fumagant as a tracer (you'd know if there were any leaks), so most of my staff of field help was pretty much "immune" to tear gas / pepper spray. Yes, it still makes you cough and tear up, but most of those guys (and myself at the time) could still operate.

So, there could be a remote chance that an assailant could be somewhat more capable of continuing an assault despite your pepper spray (if they were on drugs, or highly motivated, or just plain stupid).

If you notice police successfully using pepper spray, there are always more police than perpetrators...

Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:10 PM

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

I found this to be pretty enlightening.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:12 PM

IMO the logic that guns dont kill people but people kill people is just crazy (Would you say the same about landmines for example?)
Guns are DESIGNED to kill, that is their sole purpose (unlike a car, baseball bat, or whatever).

The Virginia Tech massacre (32 kills) would not have happened if it where not so easy to buy a gun.
What added security does a gun bring anyway? If everyone owns one doesnt that cancel out its effect?
Criminals will always have a bigger gun than you and in what kind of neighborhoods do you all live if you sleep with a gun under your pillow? (Time to move?)
Posted By: Mary

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:25 PM

Quote
Mary, be careful about pepper spray indoors. Everyone (including yourself) will most likely be incapacitated.

I don't have spray. I have gel. Goes out in a string.
I went into the store to buy a gun -- until I saw the prices. And I told the owner I didn't want to kill anybody, just incapacitate the bad guy long enough for me to wrap his whole body in duct tape. grin
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18

Virginia Tech massacre (32 kills) would not have happened if it where not so easy to buy a gun.


What if one law-abiding, well-trained student had a concealed carry permit? That may have stopped Cho in his tracks.

OK, I'll go. I kind of like the machining and the workmanship of guns. I like to shoot trap. My grandpa, who was Lakota hunted to feed the family, but the information got lost with my parents generation. It's something I want to take up, but need someone to show me the ropes. So anyone that wants to take me hunting sometime, hint, hint.
And yes, I was trained to shoot by the fine instructors on Camp Pendleton Marine Base.
Here's what I'm packing:
HK USP .45
[Linked Image]

Grandpa's old Ithaca Model 37 20 GA with original receipt from 1958. Then I saw the 12GA version and had to buy it last year, then I found a 16 GA and am looking for a 410:

[Linked Image]

Mosin Nagant 9130 7.62X54r
[Linked Image]

Then on the cruising boat I keep a marinized Mossberg and pop a few clays here and there off the stern pulpit. There's a few others here and there in the arsenal, that's a good start. I'm also into archery, compound and traditional long bow. That's my home defense wink

J
Posted By: Mary

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:34 PM

Quote
I'm also into archery, compound and traditional long bow. That's my home defense

I would LOVE to get into archery. It is quiet, so it is something that I could practice in my own yard (with the apple on Rick's head, of course) without the neighbors calling the police. laugh
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:35 PM

Hunting without a gun is more commonly referred to as "hiking", or "nature watching", or "going hungry"

While I am first to admit that a good portion of the population has no business even being CLOSE to a firearm, I am someone who appreciates the skill used in developing, manufacturing and using a firearm. In consider myself an "enthusiast" in the art of tactical deployment of firearms.

I shudder at the thought of actually having to use a firearm to defend myself or those close to me, as taking a life is a big deal (not so much in the heat of the moment, but during the AAR or debriefing). Could it happen? Sure, if other defenses fail (situational awareness, conflict avoidance, defensive manauvering, etc).

How likely? Pretty unlikely for me, ALTHOUGH, the business next door to my office was just (two weeks ago) robbed at gunpoint in BROAD DAYLIGHT. My town is just over 400 citizens and is relatively new (built in 2006), so it's not some po-dunk ghetto. It was a bit disconcerting...


If I ended up in that situation, would I have used a weapon? Tough call, and honestly, I couldn't rule that out. It wouldn't be my first choice, but things happen so fast... Which is why training and education are SO IMPORTANT (yet so scarce for the general population)...


Police officers are placed on paid leave after a duty-related firearm discharge, and are usually required to attend counseling (especially if a fatal shot was delivered). Don't think it won't have an effect on someone who's not trained to handle that type of action...
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mary
Quote
I'm also into archery, compound and traditional long bow. That's my home defense

I would LOVE to get into archery. It is quiet, so it is something that I could practice in my own yard (with the apple on Rick's head, of course) without the neighbors calling the police. laugh


Unless you missed and hit south of the apple!
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing


What if one law-abiding, well-trained student had a concealed carry permit? That may have stopped Cho in his tracks.

Guns at school, that sounds like a great idea! sick
With so many people owning guns, I would say that fear is good for business.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:45 PM

“The Virginia Tech massacre (32 kills) would not have happened if it where not so easy to buy a gun.”

The Virginia Tech Massacre would not have happened if legal carry weapons were not prohibited from college campuses…the guy walking in knew it was like shooting fish in a barrel…he was brazen because he knew no one there was armed, and he had no risk of being stopped.

Anywhere legal carry is prohibited, they inadvertently create a perfect environment for those bent on mass murder. These people are cowards, and if they thought they would be stopped before they killed enough innocent people to make a name for themselves, they would try an easier target. They don’t want a fight …they want easy victims. When you disarm the population, you feed the very thing you claim you want to stop...

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Hunting without a gun is more commonly referred to as "hiking", or "nature watching", or "going hungry"



or dating........ laugh
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:46 PM

Marys decision is a logical one. Owning a gun for protection is not. The "playing field" will never be level. The criminal will always have the advantage. Most sane people dont want to kill other people.

"Lets not limit guns, the criminals will get them anyway". That is about as logical as saying "lets not limit the supply of heroine, the addicts will get it anyway". No worries about the people maimed, killed, crime, being a burden on society etc.

"Guns dont kill people, people do". Right, so why bother trying to regulate anyway. Open the sluices and let anarchy rule?


Quote
I never said that. And the re-quote about Hitler was wrong as well. The story was refferring to all privately owned firearms, not just hand guns.

Do you really think that was the reason Hitler did not invade, or are you just trying to muddle the argument? I'll repeat it for you. Do the US have a gun problem, or do you really think it is a people problem?

Quote
Mary, that reminds me when I lived in St.Croix. Gun laws were VERY stringent yet I heard gunshots all the time in town. I slept with my speargun loaded by my bed. BTW with a handgun ban down there, they had more crime per capita than New York City. Can anyone explain that one...anyone....Rolf...anyone?

I have no idea about the situation in St. Croix, never been there and dont know much about the place. Sounds like the gun control laws was not enforced efficiently and that crime rates soared to me. Want to hold the argument you made here up to the snopes report about australia?

For personal protection, the family have me, cell phones and neighbours/fellow citizens. The odds of somebody entering my home on chance to do me harm is so small that I sleep very well at night. If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky ****. Good way to get killed or crippeled.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:48 PM

Tony,

I think that is it, fear. Good way to control people, fear. Good for business as well if you sell guns or security.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Hunting without a gun is more commonly referred to as "hiking", or "nature watching", or "going hungry"



or dating........ laugh



No, that's more like jumping out of a building. Feels great for a few moments, and then cold, hard, reality hits you in the face.... HARD
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
The criminal will always have the advantage. Most sane people dont want to kill other people.


I respectfully disagree that the criminal has the advantage. They may have a jump start, but the adroit person could easily turn those tables. This is especially true with home invasions. You know your house best, even in the dark. Use that to your advantage.

I sleep pretty easy at night, becuase there are so many dang pet and kid toys all over my house (motion activated of course!), an intruder is likely to think he/she stepped into a crowded rock concert with all the noise created.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:07 PM

How many homeowners kill armed burglars/criminals entering their homes. How many homeowners owning a handgun are killed by armed burglars/criminals? What you just wrote was like something straight out of a Hollywood script.
That was one example, how many others do you want to go through? If you are scared of somebody entering your home, lock the doors and install a security system. Buy a box of CS gas and you should be very safe. Confront criminals with guns and the odds are very good that you or your family will be hurt/killed. How many criminals have entered your house or visited your friends homes while the owners was home?

Criminals always have the advantage. Usually by surprise, but also in mindset.
Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:10 PM

If any of the statistics below are even close to the truth, how can anyone justify having guns for "self defence" - as opposed to guns for hunting and target shooting etc.

America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)

Children and Gun Violence

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:24 PM

Okay, I will give you the "advantage by mindset". But the homeowner has advantage of terrain, which in my view can offset the criminal's advantage. Even if it's just to evacuate quickly or notify authorities.

Home invasions are somewhat common in USA. However, most intruders are not intent on causing physical harm to the occupants. They seek money or items they can exchange for money/drugs.

Intruders are usually suprised when confronted by occupants, and will exit the premises immediately. There are those criminals who do not react in this manner, whether by "intent" to comit harm, drug use, or other circumstances. It is these cases where an action plan which may involve an elevated level of force may be necessary to protect family members.

I define "action plan" as a means to extract family members and other occupants from the potential conflict situation ( by notification, evacuation, or barricade). "Elevated level of force" is based loosely on commonly accepted principles of defensive action. In VERY RARE circumstances would lethal force be necessary, but I am a firm believer in "be prepared".

Given the hypothetical situation of a home invasion, would I hunt down the buglar and shoot them? Most likely not. Would I have a firearm handy in case the situation presented no other option than to defend myself with lethal force? Yes.

There are quite a few examples of intruders being shot (and sometimes killed) during home invasions.

NRA publications are very good at publisizing actual (and recent) accounts of armed citizens successfully defending themselves against attack. Yes, this accounts for probably less than 1% of all criminal acts purpotrated, but it does indeed happen in USA today.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:27 PM

Dermot,

I respect your view, but disagree that children are at huge threat to death by firearm.

Biggest killer of children in USA is most likely accidental drowning or poisoning.

Biggest killer of teenagers is by far automobile crashes.

Firearm deaths in certain segments of population is larger due to suspected gang activity.

Losing any person is sad. Let's just keep things in perspective.

If 80 persons die each day due to gun violence, how many die from auto crashes, smoking, drugs, drowning, domestic violence (without firearms)? I would suspect each of these items kills more people per day than guns.

Perspective... don't lose focus on the Big Picture.

Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing


What if one law-abiding, well-trained student had a concealed carry permit? That may have stopped Cho in his tracks.

Guns at school, that sounds like a great idea! sick
With so many people owning guns, I would say that fear is good for business.


You couldn't have said that better!
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:36 PM

“America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)”
How many of those children and teens were gang bangers? How many of them would still have guns if they were banned…how many would still be walking around on the streets without jail time after being caught with a hand gun after the ban?

Statistics are BS…you can prove or disprove anything with them depending upon how you categorize things. Definition of Statistics is “a scientific way to pass a lie as the truth”

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:42 PM

I am only jumping into this thread for historical reasons. The comment on why Germany did not invade the US is somewhat inaccurate. It came from a post war interview of both Truman and a Japanese Minister of Defense or some title like that. He was asked why Japan did not invade Hawaii after attacking Pearl Harbor. His response was something like there was no military advantage to invading Hawaii unless you wanted to use it as a staging/fueling point to invade the rest of the US. Their (Japan's) intelligence determined that 1 in 3 or maybe 1 in 5 people in the US owned a firearm of some type. As result they felt like it would be stratigically foolish to go up against those odds while they were still fighting on other fronts. You also have to keep in mind that at the time bombing the US in preperation for a ground invasion was not really an option. The planes of the era required a carrier launch and their ability to carry on a bombing campaign would have been squashed long before they could have done enough damage to have a high likelyhood of success of a ground invasion. The bottom line the US was not invaded due to many reasons but private gun ownership was part of it. Now that I have cleared up history I need to go clean my S&W 9mm as it has not been out of the case in 6 months. What can I say, Us Texans like to own guns, even if we don't carry them.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:42 PM

Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Okay, I will give you the "advantage by mindset". But the homeowner has advantage of terrain, which in my view can offset the criminal's advantage. Even if it's just to evacuate quickly or notify authorities.

Home invasions are somewhat common in USA. However, most intruders are not intent on causing physical harm to the occupants. They seek money or items they can exchange for money/drugs.

Intruders are usually suprised when confronted by occupants, and will exit the premises immediately. There are those criminals who do not react in this manner, whether by "intent" to comit harm, drug use, or other circumstances. It is these cases where an action plan which may involve an elevated level of force may be necessary to protect family members.

I define "action plan" as a means to extract family members and other occupants from the potential conflict situation ( by notification, evacuation, or barricade). "Elevated level of force" is based loosely on commonly accepted principles of defensive action. In VERY RARE circumstances would lethal force be necessary, but I am a firm believer in "be prepared".

Given the hypothetical situation of a home invasion, would I hunt down the buglar and shoot them? Most likely not. Would I have a firearm handy in case the situation presented no other option than to defend myself with lethal force? Yes.

There are quite a few examples of intruders being shot (and sometimes killed) during home invasions.

NRA publications are very good at publisizing actual (and recent) accounts of armed citizens successfully defending themselves against attack. Yes, this accounts for probably less than 1% of all criminal acts purpotrated, but it does indeed happen in USA today.



"Home invasions" or burglary as we call it here are not uncommon. But they seek cash or easy to fence items and hit homes without people. I say it again, if you go up against an armed burglar with your gun, you better shoot him straight away preferably in the back instead of confronting him or doing some kind of "action plan". Put two bullets in his torso as close to the centerline in the chest as you can and one in his head. The golden rule of handguns is that you dont pull it unless you are going to use it. That was the clear message we got before were were checked out on the Glock 19. Do you still want to confront a criminal with your handgun?


Big picture? Handsguns bring very little good to a modern society, but they are big business and Hollywood loves them.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?


Want to try again?
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Dermot,

I respect your view, but disagree that children are at huge threat to death by firearm.

Biggest killer of children in USA is most likely accidental drowning or poisoning.

Biggest killer of teenagers is by far automobile crashes.

Firearm deaths in certain segments of population is larger due to suspected gang activity.

Losing any person is sad. Let's just keep things in perspective.

If 80 persons die each day due to gun violence, how many die from auto crashes, smoking, drugs, drowning, domestic violence (without firearms)? I would suspect each of these items kills more people per day than guns.

Perspective... don't lose focus on the Big Picture.



More children die in Africa due to starvation on any given day than they do in the US from guns. I feel that statistics are important. In the US more people die from car accidents than by any other means. When I get home I can look up what the exact numbers were for 2007. The second leading cause of death was Heart Disease. If I remember correctly the death by firearm in the US was 6 or 7 on the list.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

More children die in Africa due to starvation on any given day than they do in the US from guns. I feel that statistics are important. In the US more people die from car accidents than by any other means. When I get home I can look up what the exact numbers were for 2007. The second leading cause of death was Heart Disease. If I remember correctly the death by firearm in the US was 6 or 7 on the list.


So no reason to do anything about that?


Got a referral to the story about private gun ownership figuring high on the list of why Japan did not invade the US? Sounds very far fetched as Japan had ambitions in the pacific. Actually invading and conquering the USA is something I have never heard the japanese contemplating.
Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:50 PM

I am not talking about gun deaths in relation to drownings or car crashes. I am talking about gun deaths in relation to other countries where private ownership of guns is not allowed.
Do you not realise how many gun deaths you have compared to almost every other modern country ?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:56 PM

I gotta say this is by far the dumbest f*cking discussion on here since the F16 minimum weight topic.

And yet I partake.

Why is it Rolf that you can have firearms, but I can't? All the regulation you talk about doesn't sound much different than what we have here. The Norwegian Gov't must put something in the water to keep everyone over there friendly and docile, or all the assho1es fled Europe and came here.

And no, I don't live in a state of constant fear. I carry for the same reasons I have a spare tire, just in case.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?


Chuck Norris style! LOL
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

"Home invasions" or burglary as we call it here are not uncommon. But they seek cash or easy to fence items and hit homes without people.


One of the easiest things for a crook to sell is a gun. That's why they're highly sought after by the criminal element. Keep them locked and hidden.

J
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


Why is it Rolf that you can have firearms, but I can't? All the regulation you talk about doesn't sound much different than what we have here. The Norwegian Gov't must put something in the water to keep everyone over there friendly and docile, or all the assho1es fled Europe and came here.

And no, I don't live in a state of constant fear. I carry for the same reasons I have a spare tire, just in case.


Do you carry some atropine as well? Just in case you are hit by nerve gas?

Did I say you could not have firearms? I have been talking about revolvers/pistols/automatic rifles/assault weapons. I advocate that those should be limited to people who use them in their work (law enforcement, military etc.) and to those who use them actively for sports. I see no reason for others to own small arms like that. I have hunting weapons. Not very suited to hold up somebody in an alley, do burglary with or bring with me to a bar. We have our good supply of assholes, but they dont have readily access to firearms. Good thing.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

More children die in Africa due to starvation on any given day than they do in the US from guns. I feel that statistics are important. In the US more people die from car accidents than by any other means. When I get home I can look up what the exact numbers were for 2007. The second leading cause of death was Heart Disease. If I remember correctly the death by firearm in the US was 6 or 7 on the list.


So no reason to do anything about that?


Got a referral to the story about private gun ownership figuring high on the list of why Japan did not invade the US? Sounds very far fetched as Japan had ambitions in the pacific. Actually invading and conquering the USA is something I have never heard the japanese contemplating.


That is my point, they were not contemplating it. As I said before, there are many reasons why they did not invade, private gun ownership is just one of them. Japan was just another pawn for Hitler, his goal was world domination which would include the US. And no, I never said not to help the starving children in Africa. I am only pointing out that there are bigger causes of death in the world than guns.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:16 PM

For the record: I don't even own a handgun BUT I don't want to be told that I can't, that's why I am a law abiding citizen. I have 2 shotguns, one hunting rifle and one SKS that is "sporterized" that is my favorite coyote shooting gun. All my guns are stored unloaded (except the 12ga. under the bed) and when I have company over, I make sure none of my guns are accesible to anyone (children or adults). I believe in being ready. I don't want to be in on the losing end of a home invasion for a lack of trying. Rolf, maybe I could hire you to guard my house and I could store the 12ga. with the others. As far as training goes, sometimes you may be able to know all the steps and still not be able to dance. I've seen that cenario play out first hand once, so don't address me as though I don't know what I'm talking about. I just choose not to try to impress everyone with my resume to make a point.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

Did I say you could not have firearms? I have been talking about revolvers/pistols/automatic rifles/assault weapons. I advocate that those should be limited to people who use them in their work (law enforcement, military etc.) and to those who use them actively for sports.
I said this in another thread. I've never shot anyone, or even shot at anyone. So that leaves me with hunting, and sport, (I'm not military or a policeman), both of which I do, and which I bet close to 100% of lawfull gun owners do as well. I couldn't find any numbers on it, but I can think of one instance where a person with a CCW permit shot someone in a criminal fashion. Even then, he wasn't legal because he had been drinking. In Minnesota our permits are no longer valid if you have alcohol in your system. I don't remember if it was zero, or a just a really low number.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dermot
I am not talking about gun deaths in relation to drownings or car crashes. I am talking about gun deaths in relation to other countries where private ownership of guns is not allowed.
Do you not realise how many gun deaths you have compared to almost every other modern country ?


I don't have the answer to the questions I am about to ask but....when comparing statistics to how many children were killed by guns in the US versus another country, it is only truely relevant if compare the percentage of gun deaths in the US to the percentage of gun death in another country. If my population is bigger than your population the numbers will always be bigger, percentages are usually stable. All though I would not be surprised that the precentage would be higher here than in a country that had a gun ban. I would be more interested to know what the different life expectancy is of individuals in each country. Either way I do agree with the statement that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Agree or don't, rather there is a gun or not, people will die because of other peoples actions. The solution is not eliminating the guns but rather addressing the issues that cause someone to pull a gun on another person. I can say from experience that I would never want to use a gun on another person AGAIN, but if put in the same situation as six years ago, I would.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:28 PM

From Wikipedia, not the most trusted name in factoids, but none the less:

Some (but not all) states publish statistics indicating how many people acquire permits to carry concealed weapons, and their demographics. Reported permit-holders are predominantly male. For example, while over 60,000 women were licensed in Florida as of June 2007[update], 85% of permit holders were male in that state.[45] The number of permit-holders has been growing. Michigan, for example, reported more than 40,000 applications in a one year period.[46] Florida has issued over 1.2 million permits since adopting the law, and has had more than 400,000 currently-licensed permit holders as of June 2007[update].[47]

Distribution by age is generally proportionate to the overall state adult population. In Florida, 26% of permit-holders are in the 21–35 age group, 36% are 36–50, 27% are 51–65, and 11% are over age 65. The numbers of permit revocations are small. North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[48]

Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population. Florida, which has issued over 1,346,000 permits in twenty years, has revoked only 165 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,200 permits for any reason.[49]



The people who have a license aren't the ones you have to worry about.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Seeker
“America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)”
How many of those children and teens were gang bangers? How many of them would still have guns if they were banned…how many would still be walking around on the streets without jail time after being caught with a hand gun after the ban?

Statistics are BS…you can prove or disprove anything with them depending upon how you categorize things. Definition of Statistics is “a scientific way to pass a lie as the truth”

Regards,
Bob


Statistics are BS? That defeats the purpose of discussion then.

While I agree that the collection and presentation of statistics is vital to their validity and that they can easily be misrepresented or misinterpreted, statistics are not BS.

Things like "more than 6 industrialized countries combined" are vague an not very valuable statistics since clearly the 6 industrialized countries that have been chosen could well be teeny tiny ones.

Even this statistic is suspect because it could be comparing 1621 Germany to 2007 USA. It didn't say the years were the same.

Quote
"In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States."


These are pretty interesting statistics and seem to be pretty straight-up

Quote
"America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)"


Where in the hell is Wouter? wink
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/03/08 11:42 PM

"Home invasions" or burglary as we call it here are not uncommon. But they seek cash or easy to fence items and hit homes without people.”

See…this part of the problem Rolf…What we call a home invasion here is not a simple burglary…it is violent criminals breaking into you house why you/your family are at home sometimes raping the wife or daughters in front of the Father after beating him to a pulp…or just killing them all for no reason…there is a gang in Orlando Florida right now, where to get into the gang you have to either rape a woman or kill someone.

My step daughter lives in a nice condo community in Orlando and the couple across her court yard had there home invaded in the middle of the day.

Home invasion is not a simple burglary. No normal person would ever want to take a life if there is a way to avoid it…however If someone comes into my home…with the intent to commit violence on me or a family member… I view their threatening actions as conformation that they have consciously chosen... with forethought …to voluntarily forfeit their life in exchange for whatever perverse pleasure they sought by doing bodily harm to my family.

I know absolutely nothing about where you live…and it sounds like you are not too up to speed with what goes on in the US either (you don’t really believe the propaganda you get on TV do you?) So why don’t you just be happy with your gun free country and I will be happy in a country that (at least for the moment) allows me the freedom to defend myself with a firearm of my choice within the confines of the law. That way we can both be happy…

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 12:58 AM

The WHO gives, what I presume are, accurate statistics, including percentages. See pages 322 and 323.
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/world_report/en/annex.pdf
Albania is worse than the US.

Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Biggest killer of teenagers is by far automobile crashes.

I thought it was zits.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dermot
The WHO gives, what I presume are, accurate statistics, including percentages. See pages 322 and 323.
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/world_report/en/annex.pdf
Albania is worse than the US.



Interesting read. I couldn't help but notice the data on firearm deaths was from 1998. Curious what it is for 2007.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?
At Front Sight Fire Arms training they teach you that if your acosted on the street by a gun wielding common criminal, and he doesn't have you in his grasp, to run away in a zig-zag pattern. Your chances of being hit, if he does even attempt to shoot at you, are less than 5%, chances of that shot being fatal? Next to nothing. Too bad firearms training is not mandatory and more readily available. Waterbug obviously knows the drill.

As Jeremy noted, firearms have been a part of American life right up to the baby boomer generation, especially in rural areas where even the girls were taught to handle a weapon right along with the boys. My mother-in-laws nickname is Annie Oakley. wink
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 05:50 AM

"My mother-in-laws nickname is Annie Oakley."
Funny thats my wifes nick name at the gun range...when the range master comes up to you and says I wouldn't want to make your wife mad...you know she is a good shot...LOL

One of her favorite expressions is "Watch it buddy I can turn you from a rooster into a hen in one shot...LOL

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by flatlander18

At Front Sight Fire Arms training they teach you that if your acosted on the street by a gun wielding common criminal, and he doesn't have you in his grasp, to run away in a zig-zag pattern. Your chances of being hit, if he does even attempt to shoot at you, are less than 5%, chances of that shot being fatal? Next to nothing. Too bad firearms training is not mandatory and more readily available. Waterbug obviously knows the drill.


Have you tried it, or do you personally know anybody who has? Good luck with it!
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Seeker

My step daughter lives in a nice condo community in Orlando and the couple across her court yard had there home invaded in the middle of the day.


Where they there to rape and kill, or to steal? Hope the couple was not hurt. Would having a handgun in safe storage have helped? Would carrying a piece have helped?
Sounds like that is fear talking again.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
I've seen that cenario play out first hand once, so don't address me as though I don't know what I'm talking about. I just choose not to try to impress everyone with my resume to make a point.


So now I am an butt becouse I back up my opinion with my experience? I thought this was about guns, gun control and the second amendment, not me. Nice to take the man instead of the ball.
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 11:49 AM

Rolf: Why are you so worked up over this? I would really like to know as I have come to respect your opinions.

We Americans do lots of weird ****. I eat grits for instance! But for the most part, we are pretty decent, law abiding folks.

Try this: first think of a Coyote and Roadrunner cartoon, then imagine Karl holed up in his bunker defying the 1st Armored Division!

Peace, bubba!

Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 12:16 PM

Hey Pete,
Looks like we are going to be wrong about Gitmo closing 1st thing.... Obama Administration is making rumblings about "things not as they imagined". Apparently they are learning about the supposedly safe releasee's who end up being recaptured on the battlefield and they are concerned about the blowback if one they release turns out to be another Richard Reid or Mohammed Atta. They even seem to be changing their views on the waterboarding as well.

This is going to be interesting!

Just wondering.....How come you are worried about Rolf getting worked up but for others you are willing to buy them a beer? Says volumes.
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan
Hey Pete,
Looks like we are going to be wrong about Gitmo closing 1st thing....


Just wondering.....How come you are worried about Rolf getting worked up but for others you are willing to buy them a beer? Says volumes.


Who is this "we" you speak of?

Rolf doesn't propound psuedo-conservative, "I shouldn't have to pay taxes" and "the world owes me a huge proift so I can be rich like Bill Gates" nonsense.

You and your fellow travelers have damn near ruined the Country! You get no quarter from me!
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tikipete

Rolf doesn't propound psuedo-conservative, "I shouldn't have to pay taxes" and "the world owes me a huge proift so I can be rich like Bill Gates" nonsense.



Would you mind explaining WHO you are quoting here and WHEN that was said? I'm certain you will be exposed by your inability to do so.

I'd also like to know what group you are classifying me with that has "damn near ruined this country".
I have NEVER been in Congress!
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 12:55 PM

You didn't say those things? My bad.

The next time you "hoist a glass", think of Willie Horton.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 01:17 PM

???????

Me thinks you've been "hoisten" them early and often....
Please don't drive today.

Greg

(What Michael Dukakis has to do with this I'll never know)
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by flatlander18
At Front Sight Fire Arms training they teach you that if your acosted on the street by a gun wielding common criminal, and he doesn't have you in his grasp, to run away in a zig-zag pattern. Your chances of being hit, if he does even attempt to shoot at you, are less than 5%, chances of that shot being fatal? Next to nothing. Too bad firearms training is not mandatory and more readily available. Waterbug obviously knows the drill.


I'm a reactive/snap shooter. Last spring I was having a hay day shooting pocket gophers near my shop from the pickup, (they don't pay any attention to vehicular traffic and stay above ground), I was using a .22 pistol, fired at it two or three times and didn't hit it. The little sucker took off running finally, he was twice as far away as when I started, and I dropped him full run. LOL I'm the same way shooting clays, if I gotta aim at a moving target, I'm going to miss most of the time. Just hope the thief isn't like me I guess.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 03:49 PM

let's look at it this way, depends on your mindset

when approaching or being approached by a "homeless" person on the street asking for money do you?

a) give him a couple of bucks
b) give him $5
c) give him $10
d) oh dammit, I've gone totally plastic, I'll give him the $25 gift card I just bought for my niece.

when approaching or being approached by a "vagrant" on the street asking for money do you?

a) offer him a ride to the soup kitchen
b) offer him a ride to rehab
c) offer him $20 for raking leaves in your yard for a couple of hours
d) keep walking because you already know the answer to a), b) and c)

So...this poor guy, with a gun, needs your wallet, watch and car keys worse than you do and you willingly hand it all over. Then this crack head, jerk pops you in the belly anyway.

I'd play the odds.

Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 05:03 PM

Is this the old definition of a Conservative?
A Conservative is a Liberal that just got mugged....

Much the same way that a conservationist is someone who just finished building his house in the country.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 05:23 PM

No Rolf, I don't think you're an butt. Infact if there was something you came to me with needing assistance that I could help with, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do all I could. In the end, we have a common passion that brought us to this list, and that is sailing. That passion bonds ALL of us in a way that few other passions or lifestyles do. Your viewpoint on this differs from mine, so what. If I thought everyone that had different ideas from me were wrong, I'd be an butt. It's these differences that make the world an interesting place to live. Sometimes our written words are taken differently than when they are spoken. No ill feelings comming from me and I'm sorry if they initially came accross that way. I'm going to clean my guns now.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by flatlander18
let's look at it this way, depends on your mindset

when approaching or being approached by a "homeless" person on the street asking for money do you?

a) give him a couple of bucks
b) give him $5
c) give him $10
d) oh dammit, I've gone totally plastic, I'll give him the $25 gift card I just bought for my niece.

when approaching or being approached by a "vagrant" on the street asking for money do you?

a) offer him a ride to the soup kitchen
b) offer him a ride to rehab
c) offer him $20 for raking leaves in your yard for a couple of hours
d) keep walking because you already know the answer to a), b) and c)

So...this poor guy, with a gun, needs your wallet, watch and car keys worse than you do and you willingly hand it all over. Then this crack head, jerk pops you in the belly anyway.

I'd play the odds.



what? that didn't make sense. you also didn't list my option. If I can see them coming early enough, I try to just beat them to the punch before they ask for something. I ask "hey man, do you have a dollar I can borrow". I've done this three times...two of those, I got a cross-ways stare while their mental gears grind and then they just turned and walked away. The other guy hung around to tell me his "life story". I didn't get shot once!
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
No Rolf, I don't think you're an butt. Infact if there was something you came to me with needing assistance that I could help with, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do all I could. In the end, we have a common passion that brought us to this list, and that is sailing. That passion bonds ALL of us in a way that few other passions or lifestyles do. Your viewpoint on this differs from mine, so what. If I thought everyone that had different ideas from me were wrong, I'd be an butt. It's these differences that make the world an interesting place to live. Sometimes our written words are taken differently than when they are spoken. No ill feelings comming from me and I'm sorry if they initially came accross that way. I'm going to clean my guns now.


Ditto from me Rolf. (except for the cleaning my guns part)

Saw a bumpersticker today that said, "Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths"
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan

Saw a bumpersticker today that said, "Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths"


Mr. Pot, I'm pleased to introduce Mr. Kettle.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tikipete
Rolf: Why are you so worked up over this? I would really like to know



Thanks for the kind words, but I am not worked up at all. I am Mr. Cool on this topic as I dont have any investment to protect. Just been replying in kind to the arguments presented. It is quite possible that I messed up some linguistic nuiance or even goofed up sine I came across as worked up.
As to why I entered the discussion and why I care: I think you would be better off with a different weapons culture. I also find many of the arguments for keeping status quo.. challenging?
Without discussions like this, there will never be change and that goes both ways. If the topic was something else where those present had something to risk (dont misunderstand), I would not have replied like I have done here.

As somebody said earlier, it is your country. I just hope that you make the best you can out of what you have got.
This sounds like a good opportunity to end my part of the thread. whistle
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Sounds very far fetched as Japan had ambitions in the pacific. Actually invading and conquering the USA is something I have never heard the japanese contemplating.


As a matter of trivia, Japan DID mount an offensive on American soil besides Hawaii and DID occupy American soil - albeit for a very short time (1942?). The aleutian islands off Alaska were invaded. It was to be a staging ground for an enhanced ground war in that theater.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 08:20 PM

Not that it's worth anything, but my cursory observations in criminal tactics seems to indicate that very few are:
(1) fully competent in the operation of firearms
(2) versed in tactical reloading
(3) any good at aiming for stationary OR moving targets.

"Spray and pray" seems to be the mentality. To that I thank the heavens and movies, as it increases the odds of survival if you're ever confronted with such a disaster.

I would suggest that your odds of surviving a criminal attack with a firearm increase logarithmically (or at least geometrically) with the distance between you and the bad guy.

I would also suggest that if you are able to survive the first volley, you'd probably have upwards of 15 seconds to evacuate while the dork tries to reload.

I agree with Rolf - if you have no other choice but to discharge your weapon, the dozier pattern is most effective at incapacitation (Two to the center of mass and one to the head). This should preferably be accomplished while moving to a cover position.

I have no idea why I am even discussing this... I am not an expert, nor am I one who feels an overwhelming probability that I will be attacked (despite my earlier comment regarding my neighbor's armed robbery experience)...
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 08:57 PM

this is a great example of many of the gun control issues. An 8 year old was given an UZI at a gun show by experts, he lost control of the recoil, and shot himself in the head - dead. I have a strong feeling that this falls distinctly into an "only in America" category.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6393527&page=1

Posted By: zander

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 09:56 PM

Sorry but, I think that goes in the "no matter what country you are from you don't hand a 8 year old an uzi" category. It is not the weapon, it is the idiot, handing it to someone who has had zero training in it's safe use. To think that it could only happen in america is short-sighted. I agree that too many kids are getting killed by other kids with no respect for anything, but come on that's a tragic story that has little reflection on US Law.


Flame away.
Posted By: PTP

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 10:07 PM

oh come on Jake....
surely you see that an uzi is clearly indicated for any self respecting parent with small children that only desires to protect his family!
Or what about well meaning sportsmen? How often do you really think they should have to pull a trigger to shoot a deer?
OH WAIT!
how are you supposed to fulfill your right to overthrow the government without such a basic weapon?


I like handguns and would like to own one... however I just can't get over the impracticality and danger when you have small kids. If you lock one up well enough so your kid doesn't find it and shoot himself or a friend with it then it is worthless for "home defense" anyway.
when I was in grade school I had a friend whose dad collected guns. He had probably 60 guns (handguns mostly) hanging on his wall in the basement. His kid would routinely take one off the wall and point it at some friends and pull the trigger. Thankfully the dad was at least smart enough to make sure the guns weren't loaded... but he did leave ammo laying all over the place.
Posted By: erice

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 10:13 PM

i hear his father was a Dr. at the local accident and emergency ward...

and that the whole point of going to this "gunshow" was that ANYONE would be able to fire completely automatic under competent instruction

so which idiot is responsible

the 8yo on the trigger?
the father who let him do it?
the guy in charge of the firing range?
the organisers of the event?
the local authorities for not specifying little kids shouldn't be playing with automatic fire?

sounds like it was "a tragic accident and nobody was to blame"

yeah right
Posted By: zander

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 10:25 PM

Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. the handgun and the key to the trigger lock on my shotgun are in a safe with a 10 digit combination because I have kids. I don't plan on shooting anyone. But I do enjoy target shooting and believe I have the right to do so. I just don't think it is the gun laws that are the culprit in most cases. More often than not kids are being killed by other kids, with handguns not uzis. We need tighter gang laws, juvenile justice laws, and proper education and better parenting. Do you really think that changing gun laws will effect the gang mentality? Or the violence committed by kids who think it is cool to be a thug? I don't need an autoamtic weapon so don't put me in that category. It is a total lack of responsibilty that puts weapons like those in the hands of kids. I just dont think gun laws are the complete answer, we need to change the mentality of the younger generation. I have noticed a general lack of respect in young people. I blame Jacka**, Youtube, and some pretty violent games that desensitze and glorify this gangsta mentality. I was disrespectful when I was younger but when I got in fights in High school no body whipped out a pistol, and I learnd some good lessons by picking my dumb a** off the ground a couple of times. Problem is these kids aren't willing to lose anymore.
Posted By: PTP

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by zander
Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms.


The problem is that some of the militia members following this thread would say that as soon as they ban automatic weapons completely then the government will be at their door demanding to confiscate their BB guns too. This is not an all or none issue. They shouldn't sell assault weapons for the same reason they should sell tanks. yes, I am aware that there may be only a small difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle but a pistol grip and 30 rd mag would qualify as an assault weapon in my book.
IMO handguns are fine, obviously rifles (hunting/etc) are fine.

I agree with what you are saying and if I owned a handgun then I would lock it up like you do. My wife certainly wouldn't go for a gun in the house and I don't really have the ammo (HAH!) to argue against that.

Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 10:34 PM

I'm afraid that my take on it is "Only in America" would there be a gun show, where an 8 year old kid would be handed a loaded usi. The reason so many people are getting killed by guns, is that there are so many guns freely available out there.
Take those '98 statistics, how many of those 11,802 homicides would have happened if there wasn't a gun to hand. How many of the 17,432 suicides - if there wasn't a gun to hand, maybe they would have changed their minds before they could find the poison - or maybe they would have been too drunk to make their way up on to the roof. Probably all of the 866 accidental deaths, would still be alive. One last point, how many of the homicides were committed by people who had a gun "for protection" under their bed, or in their purse and only used it to save themselves or their families ? - a very small percent.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by bullswan

Saw a bumpersticker today that said, "Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths"


Mr. Pot, I'm pleased to introduce Mr. Kettle.

Scoooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
this is a great example of many of the gun control issues. An 8 year old was given an UZI at a gun show by experts, he lost control of the recoil, and shot himself in the head - dead. I have a strong feeling that this falls distinctly into an "only in America" category.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6393527&page=1



You said it before Jake, Bad parenting. Remember?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 11:32 PM

It takes alot of money, a vault, and a whole mess of paperwork to get a Class 1 license. Its about $600 a year to maintain, and you give up alot of rights having one. Its a royal pain in the butt.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/04/08 11:44 PM

Here's a video of right way to teach kids about guns. Since there are so many guns around, it's a good idea to teach kids the right way to handle them in case they encounter one along the line somewhere.

When I was 5, I remember my dad holding the 20 GA to my shoulder and we fired a few rounds at an old tea kettle. Seeing the the destruction of the tea pot and feeling the recoil gave me instant respect for guns.

With all of the shoot-em-up video games out there, kids don't realize the real destruction guns can cause. Kids need to realize that they're not toys.

No man-trip UZI involved in the video below. Condolences to that family.

The right way

J

Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by zander
Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. the handgun and the key to the trigger lock on my shotgun are in a safe with a 10 digit combination because I have kids. I don't plan on shooting anyone. But I do enjoy target shooting and believe I have the right to do so. I just don't think it is the gun laws that are the culprit in most cases. More often than not kids are being killed by other kids, with handguns not uzis. We need tighter gang laws, juvenile justice laws, and proper education and better parenting. Do you really think that changing gun laws will effect the gang mentality? Or the violence committed by kids who think it is cool to be a thug? I don't need an autoamtic weapon so don't put me in that category. It is a total lack of responsibilty that puts weapons like those in the hands of kids. I just dont think gun laws are the complete answer, we need to change the mentality of the younger generation. I have noticed a general lack of respect in young people. I blame Jacka**, Youtube, and some pretty violent games that desensitze and glorify this gangsta mentality. I was disrespectful when I was younger but when I got in fights in High school no body whipped out a pistol, and I learnd some good lessons by picking my dumb a** off the ground a couple of times. Problem is these kids aren't willing to lose anymore.


I didn't mean to say we needed more laws. However, it is usually the end result when a society demonstrates the lack of ability to check itself. We need better control and responsibility over our guns - which you have clearly exercised and demonstrated the ability to do so. As you know, I don't own any guns but I have really enjoyed firing your handgun on occasion.

I DO, however, standby the statement that it would be far fetched to find in any other foreign country A) a gun show where "everyone gets to fire an assault weapon" B) a father who wishes for his 8 year old to fire an Uzi and C) a trainer who is willing to put a very violent and extremely powerful Uzi in the hands of an 8 year old. Having had a great opportunity to spend 6 years traveling to various corners of the world I can honestly say that it will be difficult to find a country in which these three bad decisions and circumstances could ever align and result in the death of an 8 year old other than right here.

The whole gun control problem is, in my opinion, not so much about a lack of laws as it is about our culture and personal responsibility as a nation. I also didn't intend to use the phrase "gun control" to mean the same thing as "firearm restrictive legislation" but more in the sense of our own personal responsibility to control our guns and who uses them.

Posted By: JJ_

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:33 AM

LOL!

I am taking names and date stamps on these posts and turning them into your employers! grin
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:34 AM

Jake,
You've guzzled of the media Kool-aid. I think you can find many countries in the world where you would get your list.
I really wonder why you would describe an inanimate object as "very violent and extremely powerful ". Would you describe your car as "very violent and extremely powerful" or your boat " very violent and extremely powerful" they both have the same potential. You can get the most damaging ammo in a 100 round clip, load an Uzi, even leave the safety OFF, and set it on a table and watch it. It won't move ,it won't fire , it won't do anything. Therefore it is not violent.The uzi, by the way, is only 9mm ,which is a far cry from powerful.
There is even a website that has had a camera on an AR-15 since Clinton was in office, and it hasn't made a move. For the extremely intelligent gnome that I know you are, you don't make much sense on this. You have taken the media's spew and absorbed and repeat it.
For probably the only time in this thread the term assault weapon was used properly in describing the FULL AUTO uzi.
I know ,Wiki sucks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
Take note of the sentence that begins with "Legislators and political lobbyists" I tend to believe more in military definitions of weapons than beauraucratic definitions.

Tawd
Posted By: zander

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:52 AM

I know it's a cliché " guns don't kill people, people kill people" by in a way it is true. Honestly I think it is our "new" society and our complete refusal to be responsible for our own actions that is to blame. Nobody wants to be accountable. Not the show organizers, the father, or the trainer. I would hope than at least one of them would have thought "this might be a bad idea".

The refusal of our young people to accept that they have to be responsible for themselves creates an environment where violence can be justified by anything. That dynamic is to blame for more than a few of our countries issues lately. IMHO.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:57 AM

I dug this out of my archives of emails. I feel somehow it is appropiate for this thread. Sorry for the long link name but I couldn't find a way to upload a file to this site.

When the wife doesn't listen
Posted By: lesburn1

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:40 AM



"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty."
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by JJ_
LOL!

I am taking names and date stamps on these posts and turning them into your employers! grin


My employer's a jerk. I was already thinking about quitting anyway. grin

J
Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Jake,
You've guzzled of the media Kool-aid. I think you can find many countries in the world where you would get your list.
I really wonder why you would describe an inanimate object as "very violent and extremely powerful ". Would you describe your car as "very violent and extremely powerful" or your boat " very violent and extremely powerful" they both have the same potential. You can get the most damaging ammo in a 100 round clip, load an Uzi, even leave the safety OFF, and set it on a table and watch it. It won't move ,it won't fire , it won't do anything. Therefore it is not violent.The uzi, by the way, is only 9mm ,which is a far cry from powerful.
There is even a website that has had a camera on an AR-15 since Clinton was in office, and it hasn't made a move. For the extremely intelligent gnome that I know you are, you don't make much sense on this. You have taken the media's spew and absorbed and repeat it.
For probably the only time in this thread the term assault weapon was used properly in describing the FULL AUTO uzi.
I know ,Wiki sucks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
Take note of the sentence that begins with "Legislators and political lobbyists" I tend to believe more in military definitions of weapons than beauraucratic definitions.
Tawd

How can you be so blinkered ? If you leave the gun lying around for long enough, it is likely that someone will come along and kill someone with it.
You need your car to get around - it is a modern day necessity. Most people do not need to have a gun - it is a macho big boy's toy. And if you have one in your posession, it is possible that it will kill someone someday.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 11:39 AM

Borat Discovers What It Takes To Be A Real Man
"Can u buy antitank gun for self defence?
Yes, in texas. " LOL


I also did some more research and you guys are right, guns dont kill people.
Its actually the bullit that does the actual kill, sorry bout that.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
[quote=zander]The whole gun control problem is, in my opinion, not so much about a lack of laws as it is about our culture and personal responsibility as a nation. I also didn't intend to use the phrase "gun control" to mean the same thing as "firearm restrictive legislation" but more in the sense of our own personal responsibility to control our guns and who uses them.



You can drop the "Gun Control" from the first sentence and you've hit the nail on the head, Jake.

We are ALL looking for someone to blame. From the girls who took topless photos of themselves and are suing the school dept because the photos were distributed (BY THE BOYS THE GIRLS SENT THE PHOTOS TO!) to the dead employee's family who is suing Walmart, to this STUPID, STUPID father who let his son handle and fire an UZI without thinking "what could go wrong?".

You can't legislate safety. The world is a place that you can get hurt in. Outlaw all guns, cars, kitchen knives, anything with a sharp point, and still someone will get killed. Sh!t happens.
How many stories have we discussed about a person getting trapped under a turtled boat? N-O-B-O-D-Y cried for the outlawing of catamarans or sheets. You try to make something as safe as possible but at some point you have to take the risk and go for it. Stop looking for whom to blame. Jake is right. It's becoming our culture that nothing is the individuals (or the parents/guardians) responsibility.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Jake,
You've guzzled of the media Kool-aid. I think you can find many countries in the world where you would get your list.
I really wonder why you would describe an inanimate object as "very violent and extremely powerful ". Would you describe your car as "very violent and extremely powerful" or your boat " very violent and extremely powerful" they both have the same potential. You can get the most damaging ammo in a 100 round clip, load an Uzi, even leave the safety OFF, and set it on a table and watch it. It won't move ,it won't fire , it won't do anything. Therefore it is not violent.The uzi, by the way, is only 9mm ,which is a far cry from powerful.
There is even a website that has had a camera on an AR-15 since Clinton was in office, and it hasn't made a move. For the extremely intelligent gnome that I know you are, you don't make much sense on this. You have taken the media's spew and absorbed and repeat it.
For probably the only time in this thread the term assault weapon was used properly in describing the FULL AUTO uzi.
I know ,Wiki sucks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
Take note of the sentence that begins with "Legislators and political lobbyists" I tend to believe more in military definitions of weapons than beauraucratic definitions.

Tawd


Answer me this;

is this 8 year killing himself in this circumstance wrong?

You guys are so entrenched that you act like it's perfectly acceptable! Until the avid gun supporters can admit that an 8 year old dying from a poorly handled gun at a public gun show is a problem, we can never fix it unless some legislator somewhere slaps a new law in place. By the gun organizations not recognizing the problem and taking responsibility by actively trying to find a solution - the legislators are left with no other choice!

What if the kid lost control and sprayed all the people behind him with (tiny little 9mm) bullets? Would you admit that there is a problem there then?

2) find me a gunshow somewhere else in the world where everone gets to fire an automatic weapon. I work with people around the world. I dine with people from around the world. I travel with people around the world. It's not the media. I have direct experience that it is only in America (and perhaps a few extremely violent 3rd world countries) that treat guns so carelessly and with so little respect. I'm not talking about laws and I'm not professing more laws - I'm talking about our culture. Our international contingency on this forum will, most certainly, back me up on this one. I've dined in a mall in Israel while 17 year old soldiers inspect our table's activity with assault rifles in their hands. I've walked four miles in Palestine on foot. I've traveled across Saudi Arabia and been scoured through their customs/immigration. I've spent a lot of time in Germany, Italy, Malaysia, Sweden, Spain, France, the UK, and Japan. I'm not overly influenced by the American media.

My car has nothing to do with this. It was not invented to kill.

An Uzi IS A VIOLENT WEAPON! Holy cow are you guys disconnected. It takes a lot of strength to handle one because it's firing is very rapid and violent. The fact the the bullets are only 9mm is easily offset by the rate at which they come out of the barrel - 10 of those "tiny" little bullets come out of that barrel in one second.

I repeat again, I am not for more gun control laws. I don't like big brother putting more controls in place anymore than any of you. HOWEVER, I am for people to take the responsibility to recognize that there is a problem from a humanitarian perspective and doing something to deal with it BEFORE the legislators feel like they need to put a law in place.

Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:25 PM

I figured this out.

You guys feel that it's OK for this 8 year old to die because it's acceptable that the people involved were simply irresponsible and it won't affect you because you're better than that.

I feel that we share a humanitarian obligation to try and prevent a needless death and that such an event could potentially affect me or someone I know.

I guess if we can agree on the dichotomy of these two positions then we can quit here (and I can get back to my end-of-year work).
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:31 PM

Rolf
This not exactly the same topic... but related...
Here is one of the repercussions of bureaucrats taking away your rights to defend your selves with firearms…a much larger scale, but the results are the same.

The topic? Piracy in the Gulf of Aden

Here is what one of the crewmen of a ship who transverses this part of the world has to say..

I worked on ships in that area and the best and least expensive solution is automatic weapons and rockets and 3 to 5 man security teams on every ship. They could move from one ship to another like harbor pilots do after they leave the danger area. The problem is international laws make it difficult to have any guns on a ship. Change that law and we have a defense. Let the anti gun groups around the world [United Nations] force all of us to go completely defenseless with the vague promise of call the cops and you will be protected. It sounds good on paper but in reality it can't work due to the enormous cost to protect every ship from outside the ship. The best defense is a good offense. Anyone who doesn't believe me should board a ship and go through there with your Utopian ideals and hope for the best. You might get lucky, because luck is all you have without a gun.

People that advocate gun control seem to be of the naive opinion that everyone can be reasoned with...a ideology that is based on a false premise...you can't reason with someone who has no value for human life...not yours...not mine...not their own...Doesn't matter if its a Somalia pirate or a 14 year old gang banger with a Mack 10.

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: Seeker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 02:52 PM

To all those living outside the US that feel compelled to comment on our gun policies in the US read this:
http://www.wftv.com/mostpopular/18201932/detail.html

Click on this link (or cut and paste) to read about the brutal beating and rape of a 70 year old woman in Orlando this week...

This is a perfect example of a home invasion...When I read/hear about these thing on a regular bases it really pisses me off that some of my own country men try to keep us from being able to defend ourselves with handguns...when someone from thousands of miles a way...who doesn't have a clue of what they are talking about starts preaching their message of ignorance about gun control it just...well...I think I will stop right there...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:02 PM

Jake, I think very few would contest your opinion that the 8-year old's death is tragic.

Would a law prevent people from being irresponsible and instill common sense? Unlikely.

Do we NEED fully automatic weapons that are as poorly designed as the UZI and Mac-10? No way. My opinion is that these types of weapons are about the most useless firearm ever made (besides the original French machine gun of WWI):
- they cannot be effectively aimed due to high rate of fire, short barrel, and recoil
- They jam often
- they waste an inordinate amount of ammunition
So, I would consider them a very poor version of a scatter gun designed to inflict high % of collateral damage. What is the point of that? Who would need these characteristics other than someone intent on violence?

I don't agree that a complete firearm ban will prevent any of this irresponsibility.

Progressive levels of control seems to help keep inhernetly dangerous things (assault weapons, chemicals, commercial vehicles, etc) out of the hands of those least capable of safe operation. I think that's about as good as we can do on the legislative side.

Your previous posts about good parenting would cure society of about 99.999% of all our problems.

Not to further stir the pot, but an 8 year old CAN effectively handle an AK-47, and even 60mm mortars. This, to me, is the greater tragedy (that someone has trained them to do it).

I still firmly believe that knowledge is power. Teach people respect for firearms as well as safe operation, and maybe we'll cut down on some of the accidents.

Also, if anyone cares, in the USA you can be criminally charged for "brandishing a weapon" if you have a firearm in "plain view" in a public area. Even if you have a carry-permit. So, if you see someone waving a weapon, odds are that person is probably up to no good.

Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I figured this out.

You guys feel that it's OK for this 8 year old to die because it's acceptable that the people involved were simply irresponsible and it won't affect you because you're better than that.

I feel that we share a humanitarian obligation to try and prevent a needless death and that such an event could potentially affect me or someone I know.

I guess if we can agree on the dichotomy of these two positions then we can quit here (and I can get back to my end-of-year work).


I can't let this go by...... Nobody is saying it is "okay" for any 8 year old kid to die. Stop trying to make this into something it isn't.

The question is: HOW FAR are you willing to go to try to prevent this type of thing?

The dichotomy is: You and others seem to be all wound up about the source of the death (ie the gun) and not about the personal responsibilty that was overlooked.

IF THE KID FELL OUT OF HIS TREEHOUSE (which would still be tragic and the kid would still be dead), would you be calling for a humanitarian effort to outlaw ladders? What about all the people that like and use their ladders? You get the point?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan
IF THE KID FELL OUT OF HIS TREEHOUSE (which would still be tragic and the kid would still be dead), would you be calling for a humanitarian effort to outlaw ladders? What about all the people that like and use their ladders? You get the point?


How about those "yard darts" people used to have a decade or so ago (and which may still be on the market). Think of your average dart and make it about .3 meter long and about 1 kg. People actually TOSSED these to each other. WTF? Would I throw these across a field to my friends? Would I STAND THERE AND TRY TO CATCH ONE?

I'm beginning to suspect that more people are injured annually with fireworks than firearms. You can see how well legislation is at controlling fireworks.....

Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan
Originally Posted by Jake
I figured this out.

You guys feel that it's OK for this 8 year old to die because it's acceptable that the people involved were simply irresponsible and it won't affect you because you're better than that.

I feel that we share a humanitarian obligation to try and prevent a needless death and that such an event could potentially affect me or someone I know.

I guess if we can agree on the dichotomy of these two positions then we can quit here (and I can get back to my end-of-year work).


I can't let this go by...... Nobody is saying it is "okay" for any 8 year old kid to die. Stop trying to make this into something it isn't.

The question is: HOW FAR are you willing to go to try to prevent this type of thing?

The dichotomy is: You and others seem to be all wound up about the source of the death (ie the gun) and not about the personal responsibilty that was overlooked.

IF THE KID FELL OUT OF HIS TREEHOUSE (which would still be tragic and the kid would still be dead), would you be calling for a humanitarian effort to outlaw ladders? What about all the people that like and use their ladders? You get the point?


In the post you quoted, I didn't mention the gun once. I mentioned responsibility. I'm wound up that everyone jumps to defend gun ownership instead of admitting there is a problem with the responsibility surrounding them and suggesting some constructive means through which we can make the situation better.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:32 PM

If I misunderstood, I apologize. Your ealier posts gave me that impression that you, too, felt outlawing guns and/or LEGISLATION was the answer.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:37 PM

3 charged in boy's death at Massachusetts gun expo

Christopher Bizilj, 8, was shooting at a pumpkin when the Uzi micro-submachine gun recoiled.

Associated Press
December 5, 2008

Reporting from Springfield, Mass. -- Three men, including a small-town police chief, were indicted Thursday on involuntary manslaughter counts in the death of an 8-year-old who accidentally shot himself in the head with an Uzi at a gun fair.

The Westfield Sportsman's Club in western Massachusetts, where the gun expo was held, also was charged.

Dist. Atty. William Bennett said the child, Christopher Bizilj of Ashford, Conn., was supervised by an uncertified 15-year-old boy, even though an ad for the Oct. 26 expo promised that certified instructors would oversee shooters.

Christopher was firing at a pumpkin when he lost control of the 9mm micro-submachine gun because of the recoil.

Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury was charged because he owns COP Firearms & Training, the sponsor of the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo.

Two men who brought the automatic weapon to the show, Carl Guiffre of Hartford, Conn., and Domenico Spano, of New Milford, Conn., also were indicted.

Fleury and the club also were indicted on four counts each of furnishing a machine gun to a minor.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 03:59 PM

Gift cards for guns in Compton
10:02 PM PT, Dec 4 2008

The mean streets of L.A. might get a bit kinder under a police program that offers a little holiday spending spree for residents who turn in guns.

The Los Angeles County sheriff's station in Compton, in conjunction with the city of Compton, and other local organizations are hosting a firearm surrender program called "Gifts for Guns."

The unique program provides an opportunity for local families to surrender firearms anonymously at the sheriff's station in exchange for a $100 holiday gift card to Ralph's, Target or Best Buy. For assault weapons, $200 gift cards are being offered.

No questions are asked of those who participate.

Over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend when the program was launched, 590 guns and two hand grenades were turned in to the sheriff's station. More than $55,000 in gift cards were handed out in exchange.

The next exchange will be at 10 a.m. Saturday and Sunday in the Ralph's parking lot at 280 E. Compton Blvd.
Posted By: Clayton

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 04:19 PM

Next headline will read "Would be thief gets shot trying to steal guns. Apparantly, he needed the money for a drug purchase and thought the gun buy back program would furnish the needed cash. The gun owner obviously wanted to keep his guns!" [end of news artcle]

Probably a futile attempt at humor, but I thought it amusing and thats all that counts right?

OTOH, a buy back program is not a bad idea to try to remove guns that are not wanted/needed/etc which will reduce the incidence/possiblility of an accident.

Disclaimer: Yes I have guns (long guns, no handguns) and love to shoot. I teach my family how to handle them and use them. Handguns are not necessary for the average person, but I won't tell you that YOU can't own one. I would support a requiremtent of a training course before you can get one along with a license. If you need protection, my 20 guage will do the trick and I have a much better chance of hitting you. But my better defense is my dog... just try to sneak up on me, or show up at night!

Tough situation, I can see both sides and there is pros and cons either way. BUT as said many times, its not the sane/responsible people you need to worry about, its the crazies. They will use whatever is at hand to do what they want.

Dang I hate the cold...and we're not as cold as most of you guys.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!! I pray for health and happyness for you and your families where ever you are!

Clayton
Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Seeker
To all those living outside the US that feel compelled to comment on our gun policies in the US read this:
http://www.wftv.com/mostpopular/18201932/detail.html

Click on this link (or cut and paste) to read about the brutal beating and rape of a 70 year old woman in Orlando this week...

This is a perfect example of a home invasion...When I read/hear about these thing on a regular bases it really pisses me off that some of my own country men try to keep us from being able to defend ourselves with handguns...when someone from thousands of miles a way...who doesn't have a clue of what they are talking about starts preaching their message of ignorance about gun control it just...well...I think I will stop right there...

Are you really saying that the 70 year old woman would have been safe if she had a handgun ? frown If an incident like that was happening every day to thousands of American citizens, it would not make the news - most people are safe in their homes - but you think that an incident like this justifies arming every American with a hand gun.
Having so many hand guns readily available to people causes more deaths than it could ever save.
Pete asked Rolf why he was getting so worked up about the American policy on guns. I can't speak for Rolf, but most people outside the USA find it difficult to understand, in this modern age, why Americans defent their "right to bear arms" when all it does is cause so many deaths - see the statistics.
In Europe we have "house invasions", rapes and murders, but we do not think that it justifies arming the civilian population. We know that there would be more innocent people killed than rapists and murderers.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 04:51 PM

It may not be as much an argument about "the right to bear arms" as it is an argument about the government taking away any "right" that was previously granted.

The gov't took away our "right" to consume alcohol (I think today is the anniversary of the lifting of prohibition, btw) a long time ago, and that didn't go over so well...

I personally like the freedoms I may exercise in USA. It is dissapointing when I see these freedoms taken away abrubptly or slowly... Especially when I don't see a particular benefit resulting from the loss of whatever right is taken away.

In a vague comparison, consider my right to privacy vs. government surveillance. I see their need to know what's going on to protect me, but don't really like the idea of them listening in on me (not that I have anything intelligent to say, anyway - that's going to be one bored dude that has to listen in on my stuff).

How do you like all those cameras in public places (I'm thinking of Britan specifically)? You've probably gotten used to them, but that subject is a huge controversy in US.

Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
It may not be as much an argument about "the right to bear arms" as it is an argument about the government taking away any "right" that was previously granted.

The gov't took away our "right" to consume alcohol (I think today is the anniversary of the lifting of prohibition, btw) a long time ago, and that didn't go over so well...

I personally like the freedoms I may exercise in USA. It is dissapointing when I see these freedoms taken away abrubptly or slowly... Especially when I don't see a particular benefit resulting from the loss of whatever right is taken away.

In a vague comparison, consider my right to privacy vs. government surveillance. I see their need to know what's going on to protect me, but don't really like the idea of them listening in on me (not that I have anything intelligent to say, anyway - that's going to be one bored dude that has to listen in on my stuff).

How do you like all those cameras in public places (I'm thinking of Britan specifically)? You've probably gotten used to them, but that subject is a huge controversy in US.

Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


VERY good.

Dermot, do you also have a problem understanding why so many were upset about the government listening in on phone conversations (as reported this was ONLY conversations originating in Muslim countries to someone in the US? You can make the same argument as you did with the guns, namely that you will save more lives IF the government happens to hear conversations about terrorist activities.

How would that type of government activity be treated in Ireland?

It is TOTALLY about the loss or erosion of freedoms.
Posted By: Dermot

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 05:54 PM

In the UK and Ireland the police "on the beat" are not armed. Because of the times we live in, we have to have special back up armed units that can arrive at an incident if necessary. The police themselves have always voted not to be armed, because they believe that there would be an escalation of incidences where guns were used.
I believe that CCTV is accepted and actually very popular over here. If there has been an incident like a robery, damage to a parked car, a fight, anything you can think of - the first reaction is "Did you check for CCTV" People will check with local banks, shops, filling stations etc. We have a "Crime Watch" program every few weeks where they show CCTV footage of roberies and many criminals are recognised and reported to the police. If you are law abiding you have nothing to fear.
Someone mentioned Hollywood a few days ago. I think that many Americans really believe that what they see in the movies is happening all over the Country, and this has them very jumpy.
You have a population of over 300m. Naturally some nasty things will happen - but most people will never come into contact with any of these crazies.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb



Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


Red light cameras are about making money for the city. The "fine" you pay does not even go on your record. It is all about cash. Ironically, in the great city of Houston, where I live and where they just installed some of those camera's, they have had an INCREASE in traffic accidents at those intersections since the installation of the cameras. My guess is that people who should have gone are now breaking hard to to try to stop only to be hit from behind. Althoug the same data did indicate a reduction in traffic related fatalities at the same intersections. All that data came from the City of Houston. And the reason for my initial comment, the City of Houston made 265k the first week the cameras were turned on.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb



Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


Red light cameras are about making money for the city. The "fine" you pay does not even go on your record. It is all about cash. Ironically, in the great city of Houston, where I live and where they just installed some of those camera's, they have had an INCREASE in traffic accidents at those intersections since the installation of the cameras. My guess is that people who should have gone are now breaking hard to to try to stop only to be hit from behind. Althoug the same data did indicate a reduction in traffic related fatalities at the same intersections. All that data came from the City of Houston. And the reason for my initial comment, the City of Houston made 265k the first week the cameras were turned on.


When they started installing those in our town, it was discovered that the company that builds the cameras was providing them for free....in exchange for a percentage of the money tickets generated.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 07:16 PM

While I personally don't mind cameras in public spaces for the very reasons Dermot indicated (No problem if you're not doing anything wrong), I'm sure there are plenty of people here and abroad that aren't so happy about someone "poking around in my business", even if what they are doing isn't wrong...

Interesting question regarding the cameras. Have they significantly REDUCED crime, or have they merely increased the capture/conviction rate?

And for the red-light camera discussion, if the monetary gain were out of the equation, would you vote to install them at intersections?

Even if fender-benders go up as a result, the reduction in fatalities is worth it, right?

And auto body shops must be laughing all the way to the bank, too....
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Red light cameras are about making money for the city.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/078ftoqz.asp
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 08:38 PM

so the point is, we're all bad drivers?

If this technology was more effective (and it will be with RFIDs on cars), would it not discourage people from driving carelessly/wrecklessly? Would this not reduce crashes and injuries?

Back to the public surveillance cameras... Would it bother you if the government used that data to keep an eye on your movements (even if they are legitimate and legal)?

Does it bother you if the government knew how many scoops of sugar you take in your coffee?

Even worse, if the gov't was contracting this surveillance out to a company, would it bother you that THEY know what you're up to? Like if they sold your data to a sugar-substitute marketing company?
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 08:59 PM

Are you "concerned" by the ability of the FASTPASS toll-transponders tracking your whereabouts? In Maine, they time your passage through one toll booth and compare it to the time through another toll booth to determine your speed. Then they mail you a ticket.

How about the new procedure of checking your cellphone records at the time of a crash to see if you were "distracted"? (I wonder how they know you were talking on it and not a passenger?)

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan

How about the new procedure of checking your cellphone records at the time of a crash to see if you were "distracted"? (I wonder how they know you were talking on it and not a passenger?)



because they can listen to the conversation.... smile

Do you think the internet is truly "free"? I'll bet lotsa people are watching us. I know China can do it with their population. Why can't people do it in the 'free' world? Because we're nicer?


Now, before everyone cubbyholes me as a conspiracy theorist, I'm merely pointing out that technology exists to perform these functions. Whether entities (good or bad) use them (or are using them) is not my point.

Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 09:56 PM

So....you want conspiracy theory. In the US bills a have a metalic strip in them. Stores have sensors at the exits that "monitor theft", but I hear that they also count your money in your wallet. Why you ask, because the banks are trying to get everybody off of cash and on to plastic because they make money every time your card is swiped. I don't personally believe that BS but I had a boss that did. As a result he would pull the strip out of every bill he ever got. What a nut job.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by bullswan
Are you "concerned" by the ability of the FASTPASS toll-transponders tracking your whereabouts? In Maine, they time your passage through one toll booth and compare it to the time through another toll booth to determine your speed. Then they mail you a ticket.


Wrong again. First of all, Maine uses EZ PASS, not FAST PASS. Secondly, NO STATE issues speeding tickets based on entry / exit time on a toll road.

Here's the reference: Snopes

A traffic officer needs to be involved in catching speeders to verify who is driving the vehicle. Otherwise, an owner of a vehicle who happens to have several other family members who drive the vehicle could get a speeding ticket for what another driver did, or even worse you could get ticketed for what your friend does while driving your vehicle.

Besides, they could have been doing this years ago - way before EZ PASS. When you get on the Turnpike, the toll card has the time printed on it, and it's probably encoded in the magstripe on the back. They could station cops at every exit point to write you a ticket when you get off and the toll card is read. But they don't. Because they can't.

Tinfoil hat alert.
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by bullswan
Are you "concerned" by the ability of the FASTPASS toll-transponders tracking your whereabouts? In Maine, they time your passage through one toll booth and compare it to the time through another toll booth to determine your speed. Then they mail you a ticket.


Wrong again. First of all, Maine uses EZ PASS, not FAST PASS. Secondly, NO STATE issues speeding tickets based on entry / exit time on a toll road.

Here's the reference: Snopes

A traffic officer needs to be involved in catching speeders to verify who is driving the vehicle. Otherwise, an owner of a vehicle who happens to have several other family members who drive the vehicle could get a speeding ticket for what another driver did, or even worse you could get ticketed for what your friend does while driving your vehicle.

Besides, they could have been doing this years ago - way before EZ PASS. When you get on the Turnpike, the toll card has the time printed on it, and it's probably encoded in the magstripe on the back. They could station cops at every exit point to write you a ticket when you get off and the toll card is read. But they don't. Because they can't.

Tinfoil hat alert.
[Linked Image]



Wrong, They do the turnpike thing. I know 2 folks who got tickets on the Jersey tpk. that way. They weren't mailed, there was a cop there.

Is that the new Hobie anti-electrocution helmet? I heard it's made from old comp tips.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/05/08 10:40 PM

Oh my goodness,
EZ pass and Fast pass are the same damn thing, aren't they?
Our NH transponder (I'm not sure which one it is) is what got the ticket.
My wife has a ticket she got for driving in Maine and she got it in the mail. There ARE troopers at every toll but not in every booth obviously but I have no idea if maybe the pictures they take of your car makes the difference? NO IDEA how it works.

A few years ago (late 80's maybe) I got a speeding ticket by aircraft and it was mailed to me. Come to think of it, I don't know how they knew I was driving the car then either.....

Posted By: mbounds

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/06/08 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
They weren't mailed, there was a cop there.
That's different. Are you sure they weren't caught speeding through the EZ PASS? That's infinitely more likely to happen.

Originally Posted by bullswan
Our NH transponder (I'm not sure which one it is) is what got the ticket.
My wife has a ticket she got for driving in Maine and she got it in the mail.
Same thing. Show me a copy of the ticket and I'll believe you. Otherwise, it's just anecdotal BS.

Oh, and Colin? There's a polyester stripe in currency, not magnetic. There's magnetic ink on the bills (just like there is on checks), but you can't read it from a distance, anymore than you could read cassette tape from a distance.

My whole point is - you guys spout off urban legends and conspiracy theories as if they were facts - which does nothing to improve your credibility when attempting to conduct an intelligent conversation.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/06/08 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by mbounds


Oh, and Colin? There's a polyester stripe in currency, not magnetic. There's magnetic ink on the bills (just like there is on checks), but you can't read it from a distance, anymore than you could read cassette tape from a distance.



As I said that theory was from a former boss. I believe I even called it "BS" in my original post. I personally don't subscribe to very many conspiracy theories.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/06/08 01:26 AM

I'm waiting for some jack hole to pass a law saying the Gov't can monitor OnStar and just mail you a ticket.

I need to go watch 1984 to sooth my nerves.

Matt- Next time I see you, I'm bringing my tinfoil helmet, want me to bring my spare? grin








Holy CRAP! Anyone else see that oil closed at $40.81 a barrel today?
Posted By: H17cat

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/06/08 07:22 PM

[b]I'll keep my Guns,
Freedom,& money..
You can keep the "Change"
[/b]


"WE'RE SENDING A MESSAGE TO WASHINGTON BY GIVING THIS HOT NEW STICKER AWAY FOR FREE! Our God-given rights as Americans are protected by the brave members of our armed forces and guaranteed by the US Constitution! Let everyone know where you stand by proudly displaying this powerful new bumper sticker".

May agree but, I will NOT be getting this bumper sticker, sure fire way to have your car tagged in this area.
Posted By: Mary

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/06/08 08:01 PM

It's hard to think of any bumper sticker these days that isn't going to offend SOMEbody. frown
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/07/08 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by H17cat
[b]I'll keep my Guns,
Freedom,& money..
You can keep the "Change"
[/b]


"WE'RE SENDING A MESSAGE TO WASHINGTON BY GIVING THIS HOT NEW STICKER AWAY FOR FREE! Our God-given rights as Americans are protected by the brave members of our armed forces and guaranteed by the US Constitution! Let everyone know where you stand by proudly displaying this powerful new bumper sticker".

May agree but, I will NOT be getting this bumper sticker, sure fire way to have your car tagged in this area.

Change it or lose it?
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/07/08 11:54 AM

I've been aware of the following situation for some time. Gun rights are the least of your worries.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28080381/?gt1=43001
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/08/08 02:48 PM

Interesting hypothetical situation I pondered this weekend since no one needed my highly refined skills in sloth, incompetency and gravitation for their regattas...

If the terrorist act in Mumbai was to occur here, would you be able to increase your survival odds if you were carrying a weapon?

How about if it was something a bit lesser in terms of coordination? What about a bank robbery? Or your in a convenience store that's held up?

Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/08/08 08:57 PM

I think if you are someone with the makeup of the Dr in the video that started this thread then the answer would be YES, you would increase your survival odds or at least cut back on some of their survival odds. I would guess less so with the situations with the bank or convenience store. Hard to tell, really. I don't think anyone knows what they would do until it happens.
Still, for me, the BIGGEST advantage of having a partially armed society is the difficulty a would-be assailant(s) would have planning such an occurance with the concern or uncertainty that they might just run into an armed adversary. Who would ever be able to tell you how many situations have been stopped at the drawing board because the risk was too great? It's unproveable. Isn't it?
Posted By: dacarls

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 02:09 AM

9mm Handguns for the Physically Impaired at your local Retirement Facility! This is a real breakthrough! What a fantastic opportunity for those with physical problems to assert their wishes in the Home, such as to repel unwanted attention from nosy suitemates, or from unwelcome medical personnel, or even relatives. Are these automatic or just semiautomatic weapons? Now---Automatic would be a bit much...
Note the 8 year old boy that recently couldn't quite handle a machinegun on full auto which recoiled up and shot his own head into pieces. And this was under direct parental supervision. Progress is wonderful. And if these weapons are made of plastic- which it looks like in the pic- metal detectors and X-ray wont find them, so they could be sold to school children to take to class!
What a wonderful opportunity for a financial wizard! Thank you 2nd Amendment.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 02:47 AM

On a side note. I was at my local range last weekend and the place was PACKED! They had 3 counters with 3 employees at each counter and it was almost a take-a-number situation.

I dropped off an application. wink

J
Posted By: arievd

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 03:10 AM

Well, the statistics show that you are 3x more likely to sustain a gun shot injury when you own a gun than if you don't... confused
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 04:13 AM

Let's say you own a car ... how many times are you more likely to be involved in a car accident??? Since there is a problem w/ auto theft and injuries from accidents because there are cars everywhere ... let's solve the problem by outlawing the private ownership of automoblies. That's basically the same principles you wish to apple to firearm ownership by private citizens to solve the gun violence problem.

I've been watching and reading this thread .... I would like to ask how many of you anti-gun liberals have actually owned a firearm in your lifetime ... how many of you have actually taken a Gun Safety Course or even handled and fired a firearm????

I am 51 yrs old and have been hunting and shooting since I was 12yrs old ... I was a participent in the very first pilot Gun Safety Course here in Pennsylvania offered by the Pennsylvania Game Commision in 1968 ...

Do you realize that you owe your personal freedom to make your statements to a group of New Englanders and Colonists of the origonal 13 Colonies who took their firearms down from their walls and out of their closets .... then went out to battle the strongest army in the world at the time because of the injustices that they suffered. Their guns made it possible.

So you are free because of private gun ownership ... you have the right to elect/select your own political leaders because of private gun ownership ....

So while you do not like it ... you are in-depted to private gun ownership ... it's what made you and keeps you "free" ....

Think about it ....

Harry Murphey
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 11:30 AM

Before we start regulating law abiding citizens, I would like to see tougher law enforcement.

It is my belief that much of the "gun craze" stems from a lack of confidence in the courts.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 11:38 AM

Again, I'm not an anti-gun activist but I am really tired of hearing the "car" argument. It's silly.

Cars are important to our advancement - they're important to our economy. They're important to us obtaining the work, food, and clothing that we need while allowing us enough time to work and get our kids to school. They're important for the deliveries that keep our businesses running. Cars were invented for this purpose. The fact that accidents happen from cars and deaths occur is a side affect and a penalty we pay that is easily offset by their usefulness and benefit to society.

Apply any of those statements to gun ownership today and it just sounds silly. Yes, in the frontier days, guns were important for food, clothing, and work...but not anymore.

Posted By: erice

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by HMurphey

who took their firearms down from their walls and out of their closets .... then went out to battle the strongest army in the world at the time because of the injustices that they suffered. Their guns made it possible.
Harry Murphey


think about where you are going with this...

Posted By: David Parker

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by erice
Originally Posted by HMurphey

who took their firearms down from their walls and out of their closets .... then went out to battle the strongest army in the world at the time because of the injustices that they suffered. Their guns made it possible.
Harry Murphey


think about where you are going with this...



Sure enough, it sounds like Iraq! Overthrow the evil King George (W)!!!

You have to wonder...would any of you hate an army of occupation enough to shoot police or BLOW YOURSEF UP in a market? Citizens of Iraq have been killing themselves over hatred of the USA for years now, HUNDREDS of suicides, a seemingly endless supply! These can't all be "virgin-hungry" religoius nut jobs. Why aren't the news channels interviewing some of these Iraqi "patriots" (before they do the deed, of course)? The US immortalizes the quote, "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country". Should we feel the pain of the armed but downtroden citizens of Iraq? Remember the movie "Red Dawn"? Those kids were armed and we rooted for them. Why aren't we rooting for the Iraqis?

Shouldn't those of you defending "gun rights" be defending the actions of the Iraqi insurgency (patriots)?

I'm as loyal an American as any of you. I'm only posing the question. However, I feel that a flame suit will not protect me here. And my personal page is wrong...If your looking for me I live in an igloo in Barrow AK.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by HMurphey
I would like to ask how many of you anti-gun liberals...

Does one have to be a liberal to be anti-gun? Does one have to be anti-gun to be a liberal?

Speaking for myself I'm pretty much middle of the road. I think I took a gun safety course in Boy Scouts but that was a looooong time ago.

Does the Army count? I qualified expert with the .45, .38, M-1, M-14, M-16, M-60, M-79 (those are fun to fire), and M-203, and instructed others on the M-16, M-60 and M-203.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by hobie1616

I qualified expert with the .45, .38, M-1,....


The M1 is one of the best rifles ever made in my opinion.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/09/08 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Again, I'm not an anti-gun activist but I am really tired of hearing the "car" argument. It's silly.

Cars are important to our advancement - they're important to our economy. They're important to us obtaining the work, food, and clothing that we need while allowing us enough time to work and get our kids to school. They're important for the deliveries that keep our businesses running. Cars were invented for this purpose. The fact that accidents happen from cars and deaths occur is a side affect and a penalty we pay that is easily offset by their usefulness and benefit to society.

Apply any of those statements to gun ownership today and it just sounds silly. Yes, in the frontier days, guns were important for food, clothing, and work...but not anymore.



What's wrong with public transportation? Take the bus. You don't need your car. It's greener, Isn't that something your all about? Why do you feel the need to state your not anti-gun at the beginning of your anti-gun arguments?
Todd
p.s.call Jon Britt back about shirts.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/10/08 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Again, I'm not an anti-gun activist but I am really tired of hearing the "car" argument. It's silly.

Cars are important to our advancement - they're important to our economy. They're important to us obtaining the work, food, and clothing that we need while allowing us enough time to work and get our kids to school. They're important for the deliveries that keep our businesses running. Cars were invented for this purpose. The fact that accidents happen from cars and deaths occur is a side affect and a penalty we pay that is easily offset by their usefulness and benefit to society.

Apply any of those statements to gun ownership today and it just sounds silly. Yes, in the frontier days, guns were important for food, clothing, and work...but not anymore.



What's wrong with public transportation? Take the bus. You don't need your car. It's greener, Isn't that something your all about? Why do you feel the need to state your not anti-gun at the beginning of your anti-gun arguments?
Todd
p.s.call Jon Britt back about shirts.


I just think the car argument is crap. I have a car. I don't need to take public transportation. The risk of accidental injury or death is easily offset by the benefit it provides me.

To continue this line of car comparison to the "other side" - why do you go to the grocery store if you have a gun? Go get your own food if the gun is so necessary that the side affect deaths that result from gun ownership or the irresponsibility surrounding them is not a big deal.

Again, I'm frustrated at the silly points and arguments made by either side. I pointed out the glaring holes in some of the statistics presented for anti-gun. I also feel that a car is in no way comparable to gun ownership but I don't care if you want to own a gun or not. There's nothing contradictory in my stance.

I've got Jon's demo shirt done - will call him tonight.

J
Posted By: bullswan

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/10/08 01:33 PM

I'd be very much interested in the viewpoints of all of you on this column by Thomas Sowell. For those of you that don't read him regularly, (I DO!) he is 78 years old but the brainpan is still chugging on all cylinders....


Soul Survivors
The meaning of Mumbai.

By Thomas Sowell

Will the horrors unleashed by Islamic terrorists in Mumbai cause any second thoughts by those who are so anxious to start weakening the American security systems currently in place, including government interceptions of international phone calls and the holding of terrorists at Guantanamo?

Maybe. But never underestimate partisan blindness in Washington or in the mainstream media where, if the Bush administration did it, then it must be wrong.

Contrary to some of the more mawkish notions of what a government is supposed to be, its top job is the protection of the people. Nobody on 9/11 would have thought that we would see nothing comparable again in this country for seven long years.

Many people seem to have forgotten how, in the wake of 9/11, every great national event — the World Series, Christmas, New Year’s, the Super Bowl — was under the shadow of a fear that this was when the terrorists would strike again.

They didn’t strike again here, even though they have struck in Spain, Indonesia, England, and India, among other places. Does anyone imagine that this was because they didn’t want to hit America again?

Could this have had anything to do with all the security precautions that liberals have been complaining about so bitterly, from the interception of international phone calls to forcing information out of captured terrorists?

Too many people refuse to acknowledge that benefits have costs, even if that cost means only having no more secrecy when making international phone calls than you have when sending e-mails, in a world where computer hackers abound. There are people who refuse to give up anything, even to save their own lives.

A very shrewd observer of the deterioration of Western societies, British writer Theodore Dalrymple, said: “This mental flabbiness is decadence, and at the same time a manifestation of the arrogant assumption that nothing can destroy us.”

There are growing numbers of things that can destroy us. The Roman Empire lasted a lot longer than the United States has lasted, and yet it too was destroyed.

Millions of lives were blighted for centuries thereafter, because the barbarians who destroyed Rome were incapable of replacing it with anything at all comparable. Neither are those who threaten to destroy the United States today.

The destruction of the United States will not require enough nuclear bombs to annihilate cities and towns across America. After all, the nuclear destruction of just two cities was enough to force Japan to surrender — and the Japanese had far more willingness to fight and die than most Americans have today.

How many Americans are willing to see New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles all disappear in nuclear mushroom clouds, rather than surrender to whatever outrageous demands the terrorists make?

Neither Barack Obama nor those with whom he will be surrounded in Washington show any signs of being serious about forestalling such a terrible choice by taking any action with any realistic chance of preventing a nuclear Iran.

Once suicidal fanatics have nuclear bombs, that is the point of no return. We, our children, and our grandchildren will live at the mercy of the merciless, who have a track record of sadism.

There are no concessions we can make that will buy off hate-filled terrorists. What they want — what they must have for their own self-respect, in a world where they suffer the humiliation of being visibly centuries behind the West in so many ways — is our being brought down in humiliation, including self-humiliation.

Even killing us will not be enough, just as killing Jews was not enough for the Nazis, who first had to subject them to soul-scarring humiliations and dehumanization in their death camps.

This kind of hatred may not be familiar to most Americans but what happened on 9/11 should give us a clue — and a warning.

The people who flew those planes into the World Trade Center buildings could not have been bought off by any concessions, not even the hundreds of billions of dollars we are spending in bailout money today.

They want our soul — and if they are willing to die and we are not, they will get it.

© 2008 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.
Posted By: Jake

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/10/08 02:16 PM

He misses the core of the terrorism problem; the reason this whole dilemma exists in the first place:

Why do the terrorist wish so badly to target the United States? It's not because we're just great and peachy in every way. Our aggressiveness and capital greed has fueled a lot of hatred. I think fortunately for us living in the states, this hatred is focused against us in other areas of the world right now. Yes, our homeland security is doing a decent job though I'm not entirely comfortable with the price we're paying for it.

I think it's ironic that the typical folks arguing valiantly for protection of their constitutional right for gun ownership are the same who argue in favor of the loss of other civil liberties as long as it's shrouded under the pretense of protection of the state. It's like policy derived from fear.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/11/08 03:29 PM

It is sad that firearm safety competency is not a requirement for purchase or use of a firearm. Knowledge is power....

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/11/08 03:37 PM

And to comment on that earlier post, nuclear materials are far too difficult to manufacture, transport, and smuggle.

Consider something infinitely more concealable, cheaper to construct, and potentially more fatal. Bio-weaponry.

A 2 oz shampoo bottle can contain enough virus or bacteria to wipe out 10% of the population. I think there was an old movie "Outbreak" that demonstrates how quickly something like this could blossom out to a national disaster.

Also, look up "operation dark night". Simulated war game involving a few janitors spraying a virus on plants in a shopping mall. To summarize: we failed miserably and the heath care system collapsed. 84% infection rate nationwide within 15 days, with a 60% mortality rate.

I could see someone doing this almost as much as I can see someone blowing themselves up. They don't care what happens to us after they pull the trigger. Their "cause" is chaos.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/11/08 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


The M1 is one of the best rifles ever made in my opinion.


Tried reloading under fire? That dang stripper clip will get you in trouble vs. the "new" bottom mag developed for the M/AR platforms.

There are many features on the M1 Garande that set the bar for all to follow. The top feeding magazine is not one of them. At that time in history, I would agree with your statement (or Gen. Patton). Not so sure compared to some of today's offerings.

And wait until you see the composite-cased and caseless ammo variants. All the bang and 20% less weight.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/11/08 09:48 PM

I thought the M1 had a removable box clip. Wasn't it the old M1 Garand that was the top feed? I've had quite a few different military type riffles. Since most of my shooting is hunting, my favorite is the SKS. It's more accurate than the AK47 with the same ammo. Also, it's never jammed on me. The stripper clips work pretty well but I also have a removable box clip for it. Great pig/coyote/mt lion shooter.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/11/08 09:59 PM

I meant the Garand, I've got a Korean War vintage one made by International Harvest, and a new Springfield when they did a run of them a few years ago.

I've managed to get my thumb caught in the action a couple of times over the years. The trick is to hold the action partially open with the side of your hand when pushing in the clip. Then the action doesn't close fully and you have to give it a bump to close it all the way. When I was in my early teens I was pretty good with one, now probably not so much. I don't think I've even shot mine in almost a year.

I like it a heck of alot more than my AR. I wouldn't mind one of the newer variations of the M14.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/11/08 10:16 PM

you are correct with regard to M1 Garande.

It's hard for me to pick a favorite. I am most attached to my first "bargain basement" savage 110FP, but probably only because it was my first reasonably accurate long rifle, and by far the cheapest. I may eventually try that new F class Savage. Definitely the best overall value for the intermediate enthusiast.

Robar SR90 is nice, but a bit much to drag around all day. I like bolt action... but I just put together an RRA 6.8mm SPC on an AR platform. Nice and easy...
Posted By: H17cat

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/12/08 07:25 AM

cool Checked out a M-1 Carbine at Joe's today. Regular $1,200 on sale for $800. Tempting, but I do not need one now. Had, M-2 Carbine, semi auto/full auto version in the Army. Was my favorite side arm.
Caleb
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/12/08 05:56 PM

I agree with you on the accuracy of the bolt actions. I have a Ruger M77 Mark II in a 300 Winchester. I bedded the action and free floated the barrel and the accuracy is awesome with good handloads. I have taken 2 Antelope in Wyoming at just over 1000 yards. I normaly wouldn't have tried a shot that far but I was trying to impress some buddies (plus a little lazy to try to get closer). I have a few friends who have the Savage 110s and can't believe the accuracy! Their on par with the Weatherby's as far as I'm concerned.
I've grown fond of the SKS due mostly to versatility and cheap ammo. I have a synthetic sporter stock on it allong with a lazer/hollogram sight. It does get a little underpowered for big hogs but a few extra shots evens things out in the end.
Posted By: fin.

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/14/08 01:34 PM

On the other end of the spectrum, a Marlin 30/30 lever action with wide angle scope is great for deer in Florida scrub. Ranges are rarely over 100 yards.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: great 2nd amendment video - 12/15/08 06:05 PM

You're right Pete. Although those deer are so stinkin' small down south, it's easier to just throw a golf club at them.
Posted By: Buccaneer

Redneck thread? - 12/17/08 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Tikipete
On the other end of the spectrum, a Marlin 30/30 lever action with wide angle scope is great for deer in Florida scrub. Ranges are rarely over 100 yards.


This must be the redneck thread... wink My mother has a 357 (no foolin). eek
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Redneck thread? - 01/16/09 04:39 PM

The citizens of England have something to say about loosing their rights to own firearms...watch this Video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTq2NEUlhDE

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Redneck thread? - 01/16/09 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Seeker
The citizens of England have something to say about loosing their rights to own firearms...watch this Video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTq2NEUlhDE

Regards,
Bob



Wow. That's terrific Bob. I haven't heard one word about any of this on OUR news. Wonder why?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Redneck thread? - 01/16/09 05:00 PM

Why don't you call and find out? Add my name to the list of inquiring minds.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Redneck thread? - 01/16/09 05:16 PM

Quote
I haven't heard one word about any of this on OUR news. Wonder why?

Especially since it is a reporter from the U.S.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Redneck thread? - 01/16/09 05:19 PM

This is the way it should be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6UJsfTAnA&feature=related
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Redneck thread? - 01/16/09 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Seeker
The citizens of England have something to say about loosing their rights to own firearms...watch this Video...

The background music should have been the Beatles singing Happiness Is A Warm Gun.
Posted By: AlecThigpen

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/18/09 06:05 AM

Personally, I wish everyone who was legally entitled to carry a weapon (firearm if you wish) could do so anywhere in the country, including the airlines. Those of us who don't present a danger to other law-abiding individuals outnumber those who do. As a commercial pilot, I often am armed in my plane.

The World Trade Center Buildings would still be standing if that were the case. Likely, no shot would have been fired, even more likely, the vermin would have not have chosen to attempt the hi-jack knowing that. And before you do the knee jerk response, a bullet through the fuselage doesn't cause depressurization of a pressurized airplane even with a missed shot. There is an over-abundance of bleed air.

By legally entitled, that means sober and mentally competent, and not a criminal, having passed a background check.

I certainly don't agree that only law enforcement should have weapons, as we have had plenty of criminals or domestically violent LEOs caught and convicted for various felonies. A not insignificant number of LEOs go into that career because they like the power of the uniform.

I don't hunt game, I respect those who do, but I enjoy shooting competitively for accuracy with rifles, speed and accuracy with pistols, as well as Trap, Sporting Clays, and Skeet with my shotgun. Those are freedoms I won't give up without a fight.

I have been on the wrong side of a gun in a robbery and have been armed ever since. I have had break-ins at my house twice, and have exercised restraint when chasing the thug to not shoot him. I have been chased down by someone just for passing through his neighborhood bearing a tag from another county, with him jumping out and beating on my car window at the first light I stopped at and screaming at me to stay out of his neighborhood. I didn't shoot him either, although I was prepared to do so if the window had broken and I felt my life was in immediate danger. I do insist on having the option. Each time gun control was in play and everyone lived. It is not a guaranteed outcome, but each instance of a threat must be taken seriously and with as much thought as the time allows.

Gun shows here require everyone, including the exhibitors, to check their firearms and have the action locked to prevent a cartridge from being loaded. The eight year old would never have been able to fire a shot in my state. His irresponsible father would have had to do that at another time away from the show. Stupid has no limitations.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/18/09 09:31 PM

Well put!!!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/19/09 05:42 PM

Last I checked, bad guys don't need licenses or permits to obtain or use firearms.

Is the permit/license process going to keep bad guys from getting or using firearms? Are we wasting tax dollars by making people get permits/licenses?

If they're going to jail for robbing a bank anyway, does it bother a bad guy if they get another couple of years in jail for robbing the bank with a firearm?

If firearms are banned in the UK, why are there firearm crimes committed there? Are you saying that the bad guys aren't complying with the ban?

Posted By: AlecThigpen

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/20/09 06:25 AM

Since people with criminal intent will find firearms or other weapons, it becomes imperative that the law abiding citizen be prepared to defend ourselves and family with any weapon we find effective and manageable.

I agree with Ted Nugent. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights should be my concealed carry permit, except that the right to defend one's self and family in any way necessary at any appropriate level, predates that document by a few million years.

All animals have the right to protect themselves, most carrying concealed or open weapons genetically engineered into them. The diversity of weapons in the animal kingdom is mind boggling, even at the human level of innovation.

The jail time for use of a gun in committing a felony is an extra ten years here over and above the base crime time.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/20/09 07:49 AM

Quote
All animals have the right to protect themselves, most carrying concealed or open weapons genetically engineered into them. The diversity of weapons in the animal kingdom is mind boggling, even at the human level of innovation.

Great idea laugh -- I could get a pet skunk to carry around with me and train it to fire on command.
Posted By: AlecThigpen

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/20/09 02:58 PM

That would be very effective! It would also deter any attacks or approaches by anyone in the near future following the initial discharge of the weapon. grin

Does the saying "This is going to hurt me more than it does you" mean anything? grin
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Right to Carry, 2nd Amendment - 01/20/09 08:43 PM

after a few episodes of "COPS", I don't think pepper spray/mace is very effective against meth-heads.... but it does piss them off pretty good...

So, it's TASER or better...
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