Mainsheet / traveller routing question

Reading Catamaran Racing: For the 90's, it states 'A good way to keep the mainsheet on the boat is to tie a bungy cord across the trampoline about halfway between the fore and aft beams and through the loop of the mainsheet. (this is assuming your traveller line and mainsheet are continuous.)'
Currently I have separate mainsheet and traveller which are about a metre longer than required, when on the trap I run them both over my forward thigh with at least a metre overhang dangling in the water to hold them in place. As a novice sailor it appears to work well as everything is at hand when needed, I do have some concerns about pitchpoling in that it is easy to be tangled up and as I often sail alone it increases the danger. Also the extra length causes tangles and the odd capsize when things go wrong.

Anybody use the continuous line idea? I am currently splicing a split tail for my traveller and I'm thinking of giving it a go.

Things that appear to be negatives are:
1. Sheets will not sit naturally in place while on trapeze, will have to maintain grip due to bungy cord, harder to change between mains and traveller.
2. Loose colour coding to differentiate between main sheet and traveller - unless I do end to end splice in middle.

Positives
1. No more lines trailing the boat
2. Potentially safer?

continuous lines are nice for the trav/mainsheet. I haven't done the bungee idea because it would need to be a relatively tight/strong bungee to take up a meaningful amount of slack to make it worthwhile. Besides, seems like it would be another thing to get caught on on the tramp.

Just make sure that the back of the tramp is laced up tight with no gaps. If the sheet drages in the water; flick it back on the tramp and then it cannot wash away as you are always holding it.

I have always used a continuos line, less sheet to keep track of

It's difficult to know the best lenght for your style of sailing. Tie the traveler line and main sheet together until you figure it out.

A nice plastic loop which goes around the main/traveler line works great when this loop is attached with a bungee cord that brings it to the center of the boat. My A-class has this ring in the center of the trampoline and the other side of the bungee cord holds the righting lines (under the boat) in place. I have almost no fight against the lines and rarely have it dragging long in the water.

Regarding length, Rick Bliss had a great system. Every time he sailed, he cut off one inch. By the time the lines got too short, they were worn out. Then add 4 inches and repeat (but only cut once per month). Eventually every line gets to an optimal point.

Funny you should bring this up! browsing the a-class worlds site yesterday, there is a picture of Glen Ashby on his boat and you can see a ring holding his main to the tramp. 5 times world champ cant be wrong!!

That setup Ashby is shown with is the "Main Tamer" option offered on the Capricorn. I used it for the first time at the 2008 US Nationals with Goodall. The ring is tied to a bungee that passes through a grommet in the tramp. I was dubious about the mid-boom system, but I'm a believer now.

What keeps the Ratchet block from pulling the tramp up and down during puffs? Seems like it would be like using a bungee cord for a mainsheet. What is under the tramp to support the block?

On the Cap, it is a reinforced section of the tramp and a SS eyestrap with a pair of wide washers. The tramp does "tent" up when you're sheeting, as well as some bowing in the boom. At first, I couldn't take my eyes off of it, thinking it looked imminently catastrophic. It wasn't, though, and I eventually was able to tear my eyes away and focus on puffs again. It did not feel spongy and I found myself sheeting the main harder than I ever did before. It was pretty cool. Can't wait to hand it off to my crew (evil laugh...).

I have that setup on my 2000 Boyer Mark IV (though it probably didn't come stock). I can't wait to get my hands on my new Ashby mainsail in a week....and though I DO have a cape, I doubt the mainsail alone will do much much more than eliminate a mental excuse.

Can someone explain how tacking works with that system?
The idea is that you don't hand it over to the helm while tacking right?
What does the crew do during the tack?
Do you still get on board between the frontbeam and shroud?
How do you pass the sheet around the ratchet? (Assuming its still connected to the traveller).

That's the thing - you don't pass it around anything. When skip's ready to tack, crew goes across the boat holding the sheet the whole time, hooks up, and out you go with a final little trim once you're out. Skip still has to pass the tiller 'round the back, but no sheeting worries - just drive! It seemed like the amount of sheet dumped as the crew crossed the boat was just right to get through the tack - I didn't spend any time fumbling, I just held what I had and touched up the trim once I was set and could look up and forward again from the wire. In the breeze, Greg handed me the sheet right off the start line and didn't take it back until we were ready to 'round a-pin.

can you cleat it?

Ditto on can you cleat it?

JW , do you feel you lose anything in the puffs with the tramp flexing, after you/we spend so much on zero strtech lines?
I would like to go with something like this on my A cat(had boom sheeting) but I'd like to be able to cleat and not sweat the tramp flex thing. I tried an old jib block/cleat in the tramp position(has a padeye and a small backing plate) but it flopped around too much and lifted the tramp alot(even with a ton of tramp tension). I definely needed more refinement to the system but just went with a normal block set-up.
Appreciate your and others experienced input,
Todd

Ahhhh, yes. The question is often asked, "can you cleat it."

NO! Now sheet in! And quit whimpering, you're distracting me!

By Wednesday afternoon, after having either the mainsheet or the spin sheet in my hands and on the wire for something like eight or nine races, my hands were feeling it bigtime, even with gloves. Something to get used to... or stop crewing for great drivers.

Tawd - that tramp flex didn't take anything away at all. It was "tented" up when sheeted in, but once I had tension on it, it didn't flex more in the puffs (which were big on the first two days). Most of the time, I was easing a bit in the hard puffs anyway, and squeezing back on as the puff passed. Greg gave me the new trim mantra "half as much, twice as often." One reason I was completely nackered by mid-week and was very grateful the breeze dropped for Thursday.

pretty much kills the idea from a solo with spin POV! I tried yelling at myself when crewing for myself but just get annoyed with myself and want to drop myself as crew or throw myself off the boat.

I'm converting the 20 over a midboom sheeting system but there will actually be a cleat on the flip flop block on the boom.

Either that, or it will be a dual ended system so when going downwind the crew lets go of their end so it stops at a stopper ball and then I cleat the back off.

You people cleat your mains going upwind!?

One of the things that made sailing more fun for me was making that jump and adjusting the angle of the cleat so I could cleat the main when sailing solo. very easy to cleat and uncleat. It isn't like I cleat it and drop it. I understand the potential danger but in OH CRAP situation heading up works well to depower also.
If I sailed all the time and was able to maintain the strength in my arms then maybe I wouldn't find it so useful.

That's fine for marks but... Even On my A I sail more than just marks also, so cleating is important to me.I ain't as tough a crew as the SQUIRREL,I can admit that. I had also thought of the double ended sheet. Just use the terminal end down the boom.

I like that "half as much, twice as often.", that ,succintly, says what I've tried to tell alot of my crews.That will get used, along with my new V-40 talk "DAAPLOY ZE JAANNNAAAKKKEERRR" ala JC. Now I just gotta sail like 'em .
Tawd

Todd,

The very knowledgable "Catamaran Boat Mechanic" Mr John Schlossberg has been working w/ Mark Schnieder on a Mid-Boom Mainsheet Sheeting System w/ cleating for Mark's A-Cat. They've been working on it for awhile ... John makes the parts .... Mark breaks the parts ... John makes new carbon parts ... Mark breaks the new parts and has to buy more beer ... but from the last reports they are getting close to a system they are happy with ...

E-Mail John or Mark and find out what they have developed

Harry

Could one mount the mainsheet blocks upside down (so the cleat would be at the boom) then take the line out of range of the cleat- by changing the angle really high and taking the sheet out of the eyestrap holding it near the cleat- then strap a block with a swivel to the mid-boom where you want the sheet to come off?

Hey Harry,
I had mid boom sheeting and when I sheeted it would inevitably pull the boom farther than needed. It was almost like just tying a line to the boom and pulling it around. My set-up wasn't super refined , it was harken bullets and such, but I think if I try anything else it will be center/tramp sheeting or maybe both rear and tramp.
Todd

mid boom sheeting with cleat. I took a Ronstan rachet block and modified it with some custom carbon brackets.

I can sheet freely without it cleating when I'm on the wire and then pull the sheet forward and cleat it if I need a break.

I promised JC that'd I'd be standing up at the A mark rounding yelling this at the top of my lungs. :P

another view, its on a SS rod, so it swivels, flops side to side but not back to front.

I think that the cleat on the boom is better than the rachet on the tramp, cleaner, less on the tramp to get tangled in. Plus you dont have to worry about ripping the tramp.

OK getting back to the original question, as my NACRA does not have a boom it seems the preferred method is to use a continuous sheet for the traveller and main looped through a plastic ring in the centre of the tramp. Under this, I install a grommet and use shock cord from one of the beams to hold the plastic ring in place.

Currently I always go out on the trap with both the separate mains and traveller lines. With the continuous loop, the approach is to:

-going toward the weather I position the traveller at the centre and only take the mainsheet out with me on the trap, traveller goes forward to the plastic ring?

-reaching, I grab both sheet and traveller and manipulate both with one hand while under shock cord tension in order to control the boat - how?

-travelling downwind and jibing, position traveller at the inside of the lee hull keeping only the mainsheet in my hand?

Sorry your thread got hijacked there, bud. As for your questions, I think just about everyone ties the end of the traveler to the end of the mainsheet if they have separate lines. The knot is usually tied at a point to allow almost maximum traveler play to keep the traveler car from exploding by impacting the stops on either side of the boat. I use a single line with a figure-eight tied at that point - there really isn't much difference.

I wonder, from your questions, if perhaps your mainsheet might be too short. With the main and traveler connected, you should be able to sit and trim from the front beam in light airs, to being fully trapped while up near the front beam in marginal conditions. There shouldn't be any tension from the retainer bungee in these positions - that is your maximum distance. Trapping out in the normal skipper position should leave you with some slack either on the tramp or in your lap.

In most conditions while close-hauled, you will have the traveler centered and play the mainsheet. If it is connected to the traveler or you have a single line for both, then it is easy to fish up the traveler to drop the car an inch (or more) if the wind really picks up.

For reaching in most conditions, you can ease the traveler a couple of inches (probably a little more since your Nacra has a boomless mainsail), trap out and continue to play the mainsail. A sharp crew can help out a lot by either having the traveler in hand when it's woolly, or help control pitch by playing the jib to keep max speed.

Down wind, your traveler position really depends on the type of boat and the conditions. Boats that have booms and spinnakers might ease the traveler significantly when rounding the windward mark, but often it is centered again shortly after the spinnaker is hoisted and trimmed. Boomless rigs like the Wave (if equipped with the optional traveler) certainly ease it to the fullest extent. There's a lot of variation in between. What are you sailing? Re-read the first paragraph on page 87 of Rick's book and keep in mind that it was written some time ago. I think the second sentence, "however, the best way..." is more important than the first sentence "...just inside the leeward hull" in most circumstances.

To trim the main down wind, I know guys who only hold the traveler. This is more of a gross adjustment, however. I have been seeing more and more skippers that never cleat the main down wind, and work it quite aggressively throughout the leg.

Hope that helps and that more folks weigh in to get you going as fast as you want to go.

I tie my trav/main together

I cleat my main upwind... i keep it in hand, with a little tention.. so all i need is a flick to undo it

Ya, there is one problem w the ring/bungie system ... w/ a continueous system you only need to take one line out w/ you on the wire as you can work both the main and traveler from the same line just by changing where you grasp it. Once you use the ring/bungie system you will need to take both the main and traveller lines out w/ you

There's an ol' Hobie trick of installing foam pipe insulation(for 1"dia pipe) tied to the tramp lacing accross the rear and partially up the center in a "T" that helps keep the sheet lines on the boat

HarryMurphey

i keep most of the mainsheet inboard without any bungie/rings, and about 4 feet in my lap/across my legs. this keeps the line out of the water most of the time.

I can always get to the travler line if needed (they are tied together)

In response to John Williams, I sail a NACRA 4.5 (different to the American NACRA 450), 4.5 has 188 vs 165sqft and it is slightly lighter. I am in my first year of sailing, generally club racing it with a sloop rig, single handed. For the occasions I sail with crew I add a spinnaker off a 14sq.

Ever since I have had the boat the ratchet for the main has been seized. I have gotten into the habit of doing the coarse adjustment with the main then going out on the trap with the traveller for fine adjustment. I am about to buy a new Harken automatic ratchet triple, replace all the lines and then will relearn the correct technique.

Jon

Send your seized blocks back to Harken - they love to get that stuff to figure out why it failed. That improves the product for all of us down the road.

The 4.5 with a 'chute must be a lot of fun, Jon. Good on ya. I used to sail a 5.0 with a 'chute once-upon-a-time...

WOW... sounds like you will be really happy with new gear

I used to cross the (continuous) jib sheet and the main/traveler line. This trick helps to keep the main on the trampoline. I have no problem on the Stealth however, there is no gap in the back of the trampoline for the main sheet to fall through.

"I used to cross the (continuous) jib sheet and the main/traveler line."

This seems too simple and brilliant. Has anyone else tried this? I would think that if this really worked, everyone would be doing it. What are the cons of this?

Personally, it drives me insane to have my sheets mixed on the boat, but if this really works, I could probably force myself to get used to it.

Mike