new rules and gates

Looks like Harry may have been right about the new rules and mark rounding when they are applied to gates.

From Dave Perry in Scuttlebutt
Rule 18.4 (gybing at a leeward mark) does not apply at a gate mark. This may be
the biggest “game change” in the new rules. When a leeward “gate” is being used
(two leeward marks close to one another that boats pass between and exit in
either direction), rule 18.4 does not apply (see rule 18.4). That means that
when a boat is approaching a gate mark on the inside with right of way over
other boats (and assuming that rule 17 does not apply; i.e., she did not become
overlapped from clear astern which would require her to not sail above her
proper course), she does not need to gybe to sail her proper course around that
mark for as long as she remains the right-of-way boat. She may sail farther from
the mark than needed to sail her proper course, even if she has no intention of
sailing over to the other gate mark. She might do this because she is having
difficulty lowering her spinnaker, or because she wants to push the outside boat
outside of the zone or over to the other mark. Outside keep-clear boats will
need to keep clear of her under rules 10 (port/starboard) or 11
(windward/leeward). The take-away here is, more than ever, outside boats should
not have their bows “locked” outside of boats they are giving room to or keeping
clear of at marks.

Boy I hope the PRO sets a wide gate!!!... are you listening, Mike, Mark, Matt

Holy $H!T........ Make sure you are the inside boat or make sure you are in a possition to gybee if needed.

Who is up to test the suggestion from Gurra Kranz now?

Ref: http://boating-sailing-news-info.my-ani.com/node/1522874

I still think the "no-rules" thing will be a nightmare.

You have to remember that Dave Perry has a monohull mindset. I've had the opportunity to talk with him before regarding catamaran tactics / rules situations and he admits he has little / no experience with cats.

Monohulls approach a gate at much shallower angles, and much slower speeds than catamarans. This rule tweak will affect them.

Catamarans, not so much. The right side is still king; coming into a gate on starboard is the way to be. The only way I can see this coming into play is if you are match racing somebody and want to mess with them - which could backfire if you're not careful (they jibe on top of you and now they're the inside boat going to the left gate).

My gates will continue to be (as they always have been) from 7 to 10 boatlengths wide, depending on wind, sea state and number of boats in the fleet.

The "no-rules" proposal is silly. It turns the whole race into a game of "chicken", where the driver with the biggest balls wins.

the way I interpret the rule, coming into the right gate on port, gives you all the rights in the world as inside boat. You can force the pinwheel to let you in with as much room as you like...

Which is the way it's always been . . .

(I'm assuming you mean the right gate looking downwind - my reference point for right vs. left is looking upwind.)

People still look at you funny when you're on port and they are on starboard and you are calling for room. Especially when they respond with 'starboard' and you respond with 'room'.

But, that 'take as much room as you want' thing, that could get messy.

Here is a link to the new rules: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2009-2012-[5950].pdf -> You are going to have to cut and paste this as I can't figure out how to make it a link. The [] in the link seems to mess up the ability to link it. I tried backslashing the "]" but that didn't work.

The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering.

Guys,

You are thinking that both boats can take "as much room as they want" as the inside boat .... but if you factor in "Port/Starboard" rights this could be interesting ...

Example: I come into the leeward gate gate on starboard and I can "take as much room as I want" so I sail past the left hand mark ... to the point that a port tacker who is planning to round the right hand mark says I do not leave him "all the room they wish" ... then the starboard boat gybes and rounds the left hand mark while the port tacker is forced "dead down wind" to avoid the collision and rounds the right hand mark eventually ....

Can I argue as the starboard boat and because I rounded the other mark that the port boat was never inside to me and I had Starboard rights

This will be interesting ....

HarryMurphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC-Open Class

long discussion on this thread.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubb...ords=new+rule&Search=true#Post159164

It depends on which gate you are going for; if you do not round one; and then stray into the other 3 BL circle then the onus switches as you are coing from the "wrong side"; IMO this rule has been worded very carefully to try and ensure people come from the "outside" of the course to each side of the gate (so they gybe round the gate).

Read the linked thread; we went into it in great detail.

Ok, you lost me...

Any good sites where they explain the rules graphically...? Starting and upwind mark is clear to me, but the gate not at all.

Please continue discussing... :-)

Inside Port has always had room to round rights inside the zone - they're overlapped and inside.

The one that still blows my mind is the boat coming in on starboard to a downwind mark (looking downwind at the approaching gate) may have rights if the port boat is able to give it to him...he may not if they can't. Don't try to force starboard rights on a freight train of ports within the zone - you might lose that one.

I guess it's all a comfort thing but I have this really uneasy feeling about the new rules...maybe it's just that I'm starting to get old and crusty. The first rule set that I truly learned and learned well were the 2005 to 2008 rules and I felt that those were really easy to learn. After reading the new rule changes and studying them a couple of times, I still feel pretty unclear about them. I even have Dave Perry's new book and I still have several unresolved questions. Does anybody else feel this way or am I just getting crusty?

Maybe all this confusion will be a good thing, make the Kamikazes think twice...

I agree with Matt, let's set the gates as usual and adjust if needed.

Jake's point is excellent, but remember that regardless of which side you're coming from, if you're inside, you can only get room if it can be given.

Every time the rules are changed people freak out. Let's all just take a deep breath and work it out on the water.

Mike

I assume you mean when on stbd and rounding the gate to port, in which case the stdb boat has rights to ROOM to round, if the port boat(s) can give it; back to the discussion we had over here

Somebody sanity-check this for me. If you follow all the links to Dave Perry's "game-changers" you will see that they also changed rule 18 to NOT make the inside boat on port a "right-of-way" boat anymore, it is simply entitled to "mark room" (again, if it can be given).

I would see this as a serious clarification that would limit the ability of the port boat to take out a starboard boat at the port gate mark (looking upwind). Since the port boat does not have "right of way" it should not be entitled to this new ability to go as far as they want before they turn to round the mark.

If this is true, this wouldn't actually change too much, because even though the port boat used to be called a right-of-way boat, it was essentially limited to room to gybe and round the mark (if inside of a starboard boat), and was expected to make a seamanlike rounding (meaning, no driving to China).

EDIT: I very clearly recall attending a Dave Perry seminar when these rules first came about, and gates were becoming popular (circa 2000). He went on and on about the fact that if you were inside on port, you had to round in a seamanlike manner. If you were inside on starboard, you were entitled to a tactical (enter wide, exit close) rounding. This was a major point of discussion that probably lasted for 45 minutes, and was brought up over and over through the course of the day, including some group exercises. Again, I think the verbiage of all the new rules taken together really have the same intent in this area (aka: DON'T PANIC!!!).

Mike

Check the definition of "mark room".

Jake - you're not crusty... at least not for feeling unsure about the new rules. Every four years, I take the class. Last time, I got Dave Perry - very entertaining. Sunday, I'm taking the North U class from Brad Dellenbaugh. I'm feeling pretty good about admitting the need to take the class - I'll be in good company with Pease Glaser, Ian Sammis, and a catsailor to be named later.

My opinion is that the rules have become overly complicated, that is why I push Gurras proposal forth from time to time. When there is a rules book (a real size book), a case study book, third party rules explanation books, classes and I know what, and people still dont get the rules straight, there must be a better way to do it.

For example, this youtube film was linked to in norwegian sailing media today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB-CKbd76CM&

A pretty simple case really, but it still ended in a crash.

Getting a really simple ruleset would slash costs for events and our organizations, and make it easier on the sport. Other sports manage with far simpler rules, and I dont see why sailing should not be able to do the same.

Looks like that was more a case of paying attention than knowing the rules.

I dont know if it was lack of attention on the leeward port, windward port (looks like there was room to tack but would starboard have missed windward port?), starboard tacker or lack of rules knowlegde.
My thinking is that we have all these rules, and still there are collisions and other infringements. What Gurra wants to try is very simple and would keep everybody focusing on avoiding collisions instead of estimating speeds and headings while analyzing the rules and how they apply before realizing one have put the boat in a really bad situation.

When was the last rules seminar did people attend?

When did your club last go over common situations and the rules interpretations?

When was the last protest heard and did the fleet understand the protest.... (or did it devolve that X was an **** for filling a protest...)

The philosophy ... the rules should be simple and clear is universally agreed on.. So why the problem?

Perhaps the space and timing problems presented by sailboat racing require some practice in using the rules.

IMO, the rules and their interpretation are part of the game that makes it interesting to play.

"Check the definition of "mark room"."

Scooby, I did, that's what led me to my conclusion (port inside has to go around the port mark without taking extra distance).

Are you trying to suggest something else?

Mike

Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)


That would depend on the game you want to play of course. But the tactics applied are applied becouse the rules open for it, not becouse it is an inherent part of sailing. Almost a theological/evolutional question of course, but a part I definately would like to see changed for what I think is better for our sport.

YES, The definition is "Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then too to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark room does not include room to tack....."

No mention of anything but proper course; we should all know that proper course is the course we would sail to finish quickest etc...; we also should know that this in wide and out tight.

Seamanship rounding is no longer part of the definition of the "mark room"/"room" concept and so we can make a tactical rounding WITHIN the bounds of the proper course limitations.

Thus we cannot use mark room to sail someone off the side of the course, but we do have the ability to make a tactical rounding.

Thanks for clarifying your interpretation, Scooby.

To make sure I understand, I will sum up what I think you're saying (as simply as possible to help everyone understand):

Inside boat at starboard gate mark (on starboard tack, naturally): All the rights to sail to China before gybing for the mark.

Inside boat at port gate mark (on port tack): Not the right-of-way boat, but if room can be given, rights to sail a tactical rounding around the mark.

First, I hope I have summarized this correctly.

Second, I'd be very interested to ask Dave Perry why he said the change to the new mark room rule is not a game-changer. Since port was limited to seamanlike before, changing to tactical now would certainly seem to be a game-changer.

Mike

Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)

Rolf, you are so right. I participated in my first F18-regatta last year, and promptly had a crash. Furthermore, participants of the regatta as well as experienced sailors I described the situation to afterwards had different opinions whose fault it was. As a newbie I accepted being the bad guy and paid.
I think regattas are fun, but I am really frightend to participate in another one. I agree with Gilo and would wish to see the different situations in form of diagrams!

Yes. But it could be interesting as the stbd boat at some point will be claiming mark room and may not claim p-s; they might need mark room to gybe to then round the mark and how much mark room do they need to gybe in?
I'd wager you can sail them to China as long as you do not claim to want mark room; Reading the definition, as soon as you claim mark room you have a burden of proper course, and so this DOES change the game, as in my opinion, you may be forced to gybe to forful your proper course obligation.
(I would be VERY interested in a judges opinion)



Not really(for this bit), just gives port a little more room to make a proper rounding.

Please let me know what Dave perry thinks. I've been thinking long and hard about this one.....

add another nail to the coffin...

Please explain....

just seems like things get more complicated I guess. puts up more barriers to getting into racing. people much smarter and more experienced than me on this forum get into disagreements over interpretations of the rules all the time. just another reason why someone off the beach wouldn't want to get involved.

This is my observation after being out of sailing for nearly 25 years...there are precious few beginners getting into racing.

We have discussed this dynamic before without any resolution, and I doubt if the trend can be reversed.

In the "old days" racing was a reasonable transition from recreational sailing. For the most part, beginners could participate without being intimidated by the rules and super competitive attitudes of the “old hands”.

Certainly you might get a stern word from a curmudgeon that you offended, but more often than not it was the beginning of a friendship.

Race committees were volunteers, some were good and some were bad. Courses were not always perfect. Racing was as much about sailing the course you were given well as was besting your rivals. The skills to do that required more seamanship, I think, than the cookie-cutter courses we now have.

I used to love the challenge of racing amognst the islands at Miami Yacht Club. Many folks hated it though! I wouldn't want every race to be that way, but some variety makes things interesting.

Now we have professional race committees and protests against them if the course isn’t perfect. We have top sailors who complain unless every race is a W/L, perfectly square to the wind. Races are abandoned when the wind shifts.

This need for perfection is well founded at the highest level events, but it perhaps has a negative effect on so called “friendly” competition at the lower levels.

I refer back to:



Having said that, the evolution of the rules is healthy. However, threats to lynch the PRO, even in jest, tend to exemplify the “win at any cost” and “a perfect course every time” mentality that keeps or drives beginners away from the sport.

we are talking about rule specifics here.

When I started racing 30 years ago; we were turored in the "go around the outside to start with" rules. It served me well.

This thred is delving deep into the rules for a discussion; we are not saying this will happen that much, or is something to be encouraged, just that we, sailors, are discussing the fine details of the rules we race under.

At our level the rules don't make much difference. If you try not to run into me, I'll try not to run into you. The guys that are really concerned about this will be half way up the course by the time you and I get there.

Just in case you were wondering, the weather is about perfect- 70 degrees, wind 10-12.

yeah, I figured it didn't necessarily apply to me
But what about when they are lapping you and me?

Yeah, I know, nice weather down there. I keep getting updates from my friend near Pensacola. There is 7 inches (+/-) of snow on the ground here. I know how to make it stop snowing though- buy a snowblower.

Pete, what happens when you meet the fastest boats after they have rounded or, heaven forbid, you are lapped and get to the gate at the same time as they? Not unrealistic in a mixed rating fleet where skill levels and boat speeds vary a lot? I was very uncertain about what to do in situations like that (yes, I have been lapped). Fortunately, the more experienced guys treated us more like an obstacle on the course than competitors and was really nice. If the rules took no more than 10-15 minutes to learn and understand, like in many other sports, my initiation would have been far less stress/angst filled.
I think Jack pointed out some important things in his post.

Simon, I really dont think the discussion here goes around finer points. The downwind rounding is one of the fastest and most complex situations you get on todays course. As the discussion here have showed, it is not very clear and widely understood what the rules say you can and shall do. If it was clear, surely the correct and full answers would come pretty immediately? I have scratched my head over the explanations and implications here as I am certain many others have done. Dont you agree that the rules are rather complex?

It is probably pointless to take the "rule complexity" discussion much farther. But it sure would be nice to have some open but experienced minds look over the rules and form much simplified alternative. Who knows, it might even work very well. Gurra is looking at it, and I know some others also are thinking along the same paths.

I guess my philosophy is more like golf. I don't compete directly with other boats, rather I just try to sail the best race I can. For me, that means staying out of trouble regardless of my "rights".

Mark Roundings are very much like a huge traffic merge.

All will go smoothly when everyone plays by the rules.... Add a new driver who doesn't drive with intention... or and **** who think getting one car further up the line is winning and the process slows down or fender benders happen.

So long as a new racer knows the basic rules (USSA puts them on a 4 x 7 laminated card for you) and understands when he is expected to round or jibe or go forward... everything goes smoothly. It's a cluster if they suddenly get the idea that they won't race at the mark rounding and don't take their turn.... (just like the new driver in the tunnel merge).

Scooby's point that in the beginning... staying on the outside will keep you out of trouble in the beginning is a great strategy to start ... but you still have to spend some time with the rules and know when to take your turn.

Yes, the rules are complex.

The thing is that the rules do need to be fairly complex as we are racing something (a boat) that cannot go in all directions (i.e. dead upwind) we race on a track that has things on it (other boats / sand banks / shipping etc) and the track itself moves, we cannot change direction quickly. We sail around things (marks), we start from a start line that is not marked, just the ends of it.

If we simply had port and stbd; what happens when one boat is sailing higher than the other; we need a rule for that too; what happens when we need to sail around something like a mark. P-S may be enough, but not always. what happens when we sail towards a sand bank?

Could the rules be made simpler by a complete re-write?

Yes, we could get rid of a lot of the "x rule switches off and Y applies". BUT it would mean a complete change to the structure of the rule set.

It might be nice to have a set of "starting rules; sailing to windward rules; rounding upwind marks etc" BUT how would we document the point one set changes to the other??? It is a complext sport we take part in.

Try sitting down and writing some rules, but just to ensure that each time 2 boats meet on the race course; one has to give way to the other; the simplest might be "biggest has rights, but is that LOA/ LWL / tonnage? etc....

I like the concept of the simplified rules for starting racing, but they are not enough for serious racing.

It is, and that is part of the attraction. Even if just sailing the things is indeed the best part of it.
However, I do think we could do better on the rules. I'll be watching what Gurra and the other guys come up with and come back on the subject from time to time

You know, your first sentence is the exact same philosophy Eric Twiname advocated and which I try to follow as well. The second sentence describes what the fastest sailors do, stay out of trouble. Sounds like you are a man to watch.

PS: Eric Twinames sailing books are excellent.

Scooby, I'll let you know if I hear back from Dave Perry or any of the other judges that I know. Do you have any judges in your area that you could ask and get back to us on their opinions?

As for Jack and any others concerned about simplicity for beginners, all I can say is that we try to make sure that those of us at the top and in the middle of the pack understand the rules enough to help the newbies learn. We make lots of efforts at the local level to hold learn-to-race seminars, etc. But, if we can't come to agreement on the rules ahead of time, we discuss it and if needed, consult with judges ahead of time or worst-case, in a protest (doesn't necessarily mean the rules need to be thrown away).

I recall my first year of racing Hobies in 1997. Through complete dumb luck, I was the third boat to the weather mark in a 30+ boat H16A fleet at Wildwood. I got passed by about 8 boats on my way to the gate. Once I got there, it was pretty clear that I had absolutely no clue what I was doing, so everyone avoided each other and I did two circles (just to be safe).

What is my point? When you're new, you have to be humble enough to assume that you're probably wrong and not to push your luck in tight situations. Always ask questions, you can always protest later.

I've raced with hundreds of people over the years, and can honestly say that I've only run into two or three people that gave bad advice or took advantage of newbies on the water. They were never at the front of the fleet, and I have not seen any of them in many, many years.

As tikipete alludes, there's a reason that you never see certain people at the front of the fleet go to the room. They know that screwing with one boat and forcing protests loses the rest of the fleet. It's better to stay clear and pass them later.

Mike

Don't be discouraged...the racing rules seem complex and at the fine details, they are. But, the basics are much simpler than traffic rules. The basic rules will serve you well in racing for a majority of your boat & mark meetings.
This doesn't mean the finers points and more complex rules should just be ingnored...just learn them over longer time periods. Try sailing/racing with a more experienced crew/skipper and get in a habit of de-breifing between races, at the end of day when situations are still fresh in your mind. If I have a situation on the water that I didn't feel I understood well enough (& I've been racing for many decades!), I pick up my Dave Perry's "The Racing Rules Explained" book as bed time reading that night and review the pertinent sections. This is how you learn to understand...it takes time but It is very rewarding and part of what makes racing so enjoyable.

A couple, but I am not spending much time at the sailing club as cash is tight at present and I am spending a fair bit of time teaching at present.

One thing that I'll never claim to be an expert on is the rules. For some reason, I can read technical documents, software development APIs, and historical documents from the 19th century just fine, but as soon as I try to read rules, I first get lost trying to reconstruct the scenario in my head, then I get frustrated, then I get bored and give up.

My solution to this problem is to sail with a guy who knows the rules - and to not get myself in a position where I'll be forced to know an obscure rule.

When in doubt, I'll go ahead and do the spin to alleviate any offense incurred, whether legitimate or not. I'm sure there are people who will say this is a bad thing to do, and it probably is, but the last thing I want is for there to be an angry person waiting for me when I get back to the beach.

Pete,

I'm akin to agree with you. I would most likely be sailing my own race, to minimize time on the course.

If I were being lapped by faster boats, or if I were lapping or passing slower boats, I would figure it's my job (as the faster boat) to avoid the slower boat, whether they be slower because of their boatspeed, or because they don't know the rules.

I've been in the fray of a busy mark rounding, and I'm sure I've traded paint with other people at times. Being in the fray in the first place is slow, probably much slower than a wide rounding around the 'parking lot' of boats with all their bad air (and tempers).

Agree 1000%...

Especially in light air, the last place to find yourself is in a pile of boats at a mark. You can expect to be parked for 5 minutes sometimes, which is an eternity. Add a strong current working against you, and wow, just watch the tempers explode...

Mike

OK, got some answers. I think a seminar will help a lot. Also, take a look at the new Speed and Smarts newsletter.

Q: Starboard boat, inside at starboard mark (looking upwind):

A: If the inside boat is on starboard, as she would be at the starboard gate mark looking upwind, the outside boats must not only give her mark-room (18.2(b)), they must also keep clear of her (rule 10). Furthermore, rule 18.4 does not apply as it is a gate mark, so she is not required to sail her proper course and gybe to round the mark. She can go where she pleases. It is not correct to say that if there is a parade on port, starboard must give way or that she is limited to only have room if it can be given. She is entitled to sail where she pleases, provided that if she changes course she complies with rule 16, Changing Course.

Q: Port boat, inside at port mark:

A; When the inside boat does not have right of way, as is the case at the port gate mark when the inside boat is on port and the outside boat is on starboard, the outside boat need only give mark-room - which is just enough space to sail "to" the mark in a seamanlke way (not proper course) and then space "at" the mark to sail her proper course around the mark. A boat is "at" the mark when her bow comes alongside it and she needs to make her turn around the mark. This is not a game change from the previous rules.

Q: Can an inside port boat now take a tactical rounding and call it proper course?

A: To reiterate, an inside keep clear boat is not entitled to sail her proper course until she is physically "at" the mark. Prior to that she must sail her "seamanlike" course exactly as she was required to do under the old rules. She may not sail a "swing wide/cut close" tactical rounding.

Me again... So, it seems that the only real change is that a starboard inside boat can do whatever he pleases, providing he gives opportunity to keep clear. This includes sailing over to the port mark, something that I personally feel may cause all sorts of unintended confusion and in turn, collisions.

Mike

Mike, I agree. After taking the Brad Dellenbaugh North U class on the new rules, it seems like coming in between noon and two o'clock on the starboard gate gives you all the advantages. Coming in ten o'clock to noon on the port gate gives you mark room, but guarantees you'll get driven down to by-the-lee if any starboard boat comes in who owes you mark room but nothing else (e.g., proper course). Risk is increased for those coming down the left side of the course. It seems like the rules writers only think in far-deeper gybe angles than we do.

Thanks for this; it helps but also prompts more questions.....

I cannot find a definition of "to" or "at" in the rules and so what is this and what does it really mean?

You state (I assume pass on) that "A boat is "at" the mark when her bow comes alongside it and she needs to make her turn around the mark.".

First; I assume "bow" means "foremost appendage of the hull" - so Spi pole in some cases?

Second, what is "alongside"? I could be "alongside" once my Spi pole breaks the line between both marks, or when the tip of my Spi pole is at a tangent to the mark? Do I have to be close to the mark to be "alongside" (I assume so).


YES, I know we are getting into very fine detail, but this happens.....

Great, I'll add a protractor to the list of required equipment for 2009 :P

But what if it's after 6pm and the keg has been tapped?

You'd fail the pee test.

Yes, those answers were passed on. What I'm taking away is this:

Realistically, regardless of the wide angles we sail, at the end of the day you have to avoid contact, and give time and opportunity for the give-way boat to avoid when you change course. So, although you have the right as in inside starboard boat (at the starboard mark) to do a Crazy-Ivan and fly over to the port mark, you'd have to be insane to try this in a crowd and expect to win a protest.

As for "at the mark" I'm seeing this for what it is. You're at the mark when your boat is there and you're going around the mark. Not a boat length away, etc. Looking at what Dave Perry said, the intent of the rule change (to "mark-room") wasn't to change the game, but to clarify who the "right-of-way" boat was (I wonder why they did this, maybe it has to do with collisions and damage?). Anyway, if you're port inside at the port mark, think of it under the old rules, you have the right to go there and make a seamanlike rounding, that's it.

Mike

Nice Rules Clinic at AYC on Saturday.

Keith, Alec and David were also listening from the cat fleet. It was great when the ONLY photo shown in rules talk was from a Tuesday night race on West River!

Terry Hutchinson gave some insight into his most famous rules fiasco…. (it cost New Zeeland the cup). The video showed the whole affair. After fouling Alingi in a port starboard at the weather mark… They were several boat lengths ahead but must take their penalty. The penalty is a tack and come past 90 degrees to the wind for 2 seconds.

From Terry’s point of view… They were past 90 for more then 4 seconds…. before the flag dropped. They lost the race by 2 secs! His point… It doesn’t matter what you think… it only matters what the judge can see or think.

Best line of the talk… I stink in the room making my case. … I want to sail hard and then enjoy the time at the dock afterwards. I have a sort of Nascar attitude where Rubbin’s racin and unless I have a hole in the boat.. I keep on racing.., no flags.

About the rules… Not that much has really changed for this cycle. BUT… if you read the new formulation of the rules a little too quickly… you might think the game is changed.

Be careful on your reading of the new term “mark room” Make sure you distinguish the two pieces of the definition.

Also, the new rule which would seem to give an overlapped group of down wind port tackers an excuse of Hey… I could not give you “the starboard tackers “ Mark Room for your tactical rounding is not what it mayseem. The judges emphasized that the overlap has existed for quite some while and the port tackers MUST give way to Starboard and cannot claim Crap… I just could not make way for you at the three boat length circle because of the overlaps … so sorry no room starboard.. you must bail out to avoid a collision. If you try it… you will be flicked. The game has not changed. The new rule is intended for rare instances when some one jibes into a position and the port tackers could not have anticipated this move and have no where to go.

Again… if you think the rules have changed …. Re read them or find an interpretation in the sailing press. They really have not changed that much. JW's and Bructas summary's match the AYC clinic.

Scooby, we asked about what the near the mark is. Answer it was a common sense definition given the conditions on the water.

Mark

Please clarify "If you try it… you will be flicked." Which one? Port or starboard?

I'm sorry I missed this thread earlier. I try to answer rules questions when I can and am happy to explain the latest changes. If I don't chime in on future rules discussions, please drop me an email to let me know it's going on.

Regards
Eric Rasmussen - avid cat racer / US Sailing Certified Judge / Area D Appeals Committee member.
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