Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why?

A recent trend is for major beach cat regattas to require a show of proof of at least 100,000 in liability insurance coverage. (It's rarely checked and it's not like you could validate some one's proof of insurance anyway)

However, my local CBYRA races and major Championships like the Acura Key West Race Week don't require any proof of insurance.

http://www.premiere-racing.com/keywest09/forms/KW09_NOR_pt1-2.pdf

Section 14 details responsibility... (It's clearly the skipper's total responsibility)

Why do beach cat organizing authorities decide they want to have something to say on insurance liability when the issue is between two private parties (with or without their insurance companies)

Seems to me that society has a pretty elaborate civil system to handle this dispute.... Hell you can even get a shot on Judge Judy's show if you want.

It can't be the price of the boat.... the real nightmare is the financial cost of a serious personal injury that you would be liable for ... That would pertain to all skippers, laser on up!

Anyone have a plausible reason?

I assert that it sounds like a good thing to require this liability proof but we organizers are making a big mistake. (We now include the organizing authority into the dispute if we don't do this properly)

I assert that there is a good reason that the pro's running regattas don't ask for proof of liability!

My guess, the major championship organizers have their own insurance and assume they will be sued regardless of whether the racers have insurance. They have covered their butt, and assume the racers should do the same but leave it up to them.

I will always argue for proof of insurance at our regattas. Two years ago we made it mandatory, and it did force a few sailors to get insurance the days before the regatta that did not have it. Then on Friday night a squall came through and tossed a number of boats. One of the owners whose brand new boat was tossed got insurance the day before, and yes he was really happy he got it.

I also think its a good idea to require skippers to have liability insurance in case they do run someone over coming to or leaving the beach. At our past ocean regattas I have seen several instances were a catsailor almost hit a swimmer while trying to navigate the surf. Sailors should have liability insurance for that slim chance that they accidentally hit someone. As an organizer, I think it partly your responsibility to make sure they have it.

I will always argue for proof of insurance at our regattas. Two years ago we made it mandatory, and it did force a few sailors to get insurance the days before the regatta that did not have it. Then on Friday night a squall came through and tossed a number of boats. One of the owners whose brand new boat was tossed got insurance the day before, and yes he was really happy he got it.

Yes he was... It was insured with Progressive, within a week I had a brand new hull and the boat was ready to go!

Brian,
I still don't get why you the organizer feel the need to muck around in this can of worms. How can you be "SURE THEY HAVE IT" How can you validate their certificate... they could photoshop one in minutes. In this day an age their insurance company could have folded last week. What good comes of it for the OA?

I agree, I want everyone to have liability insurance at the events I attend... BUT as an OA... I don't want any responsibility for it.

Liability is a legal matter. Sailboat racing is a game defined by the Racing rules,Prescriptions, SI's and NOR ... Don't mix the game with the legal liability crap. The powers that be have worked really hard to keep the two things well apart.

Your good intention opens the door for lots of trouble.

If the cat sailor hits the swimmer...Seems to me it's his problem... not the regatta chair's.

What happens if the cat sailor lied and has no insurance and no assets. If I am the swimmer... I come after you in court because YOU did not verify that he had insurance and he would not have been out there if you had done your job as you said you would. You have some financial liability for my injury. It doesn't matter if the swimmer wins or looses on the merits... You opened the door to my claim and now you are in court (your time, your lawyer, your stress, your $$$ etc etc).

I assert that most YC's and the big regattas don't want to get involved in this stuff and leave it up to individual captain's responsibility to have liability insurance.

See the NOR for Key West... They use the word responsibility many many times.... never liability.

The prescriptions to the racing rules define responsibility... not liability and are very clear they don't speak to matters of liability keeping it very clear that the game rules and participants do not settle a legal issue.
That's for the civil courts.

Your best of intention puts the innocent Organizing Authority in the middle of a legal xxx contest. Not to mention... your Org Authority Regatta liability insurance coverage is a big pot of money to go after (Standard is a million bucks). Why offer up the target?

Every event I have been to in the UK, we are asked to Sign that we have insurance, BUT it is never checked....

Why, well the reasons I have been told is that if someone checks that you have insurance, then it is THEIR call to say if it is

a, Valid
b, appropiate
c, Up-to-date
d, real

If you do not ask for proof, the responsibility for the provision and validity lies with the person signing that they HAVE insurance.

I have been to ONE EU regatta (30 years ago) that required us to present our insurance documents, but none since.

Only Round Texel and one other race actually checks if you have insurance.
Not sure what the legal reason is but it may be part of the conditions from the organising regatta's insurance policy.

I could mock up something that looked official quite easily on my PC; if inspected(and approved), would this transfer liability to the organisation?

I believe that that would technically be considered fraud on your part.

Brian, you know I'm right there with you on the insurance thing, but Mark is making sense to me. After having to play the heavy at the Area Qualifiers that is a part of the job I'd like to see go away. After 6 months of emails, forum posts, and publishing the NOR and SI's on the host website well in advance people were still without the proper documentation then you're faced with that decision and we all know which way it goes.

At this point I'm convinced that if something goes down and it goes to the lawyers EVERYONE will be on the hook regardless of the documentation and insurance is just a buffer.

I still feel like we are guessing when it comes to this issue. Melbourne Yacht Club got sued, do you know what they require for their regatta's and what the release wording is? Have they changed the wording for their release?

I'd like to point out at last years Alter Cup they required insurance documentation and they retained a copy during the event. If we do continue to require proof of insurance then we should go the next step and require a copy. Also, you and I are no longer fleet officers so now all we have to do is sail aint it cool!

The organizer states it is required... they have now taken basic "reasonable" steps toward governing an event that has coverage in the event of a claim. Even though they can be named a defendant still... they have taken reasonable steps.. this could sway a judge or jury they have liability in a lawsuit.

Similar to renting a car, they check to see you have a license, but don't run the license to verify it is in effect.

if they don't take these "steps"... they have not taken reasonable responsibility and probably have more liability in any claims.

Matt, are you out there?

I don't know the specific reason, but proof of insurance is collected and copies maintained at Hobie NAs. We require it in a lot of Hobie SIs for "lower" events, but it is rarely (if ever) verified. I believe that we use the same regatta insurance for these events as all points regattas, etc.

If I had to guess (which I hate doing), I would say it's enforced at the international events (NAs) to be sure that the foreign guests at these events have coverage that is appropriate for the venue (which is not always in the US).

Mike

I really think organizers should require proof of insurance. The real problem is that people do forget it and that is a hard call on the RC's part as to what to do. I think if they signed something saying they had it in case they forgot it I would be ok with it.

The real reason in my mind is to protect the other competitors from some jerk that would do damage to someones boat and then not pay to cover the damages. I know this happened to a friend of mine a long time ago. My friend had simple liability coverage on his boat. He was at a major regatta and got cut in two by a guy from the Virgin Islands. This guy was found at fault for a Port/Starboard protest hearing. He disappeared back to the VI and was never seen again. My friend was out the full cost of his boat - about 8K back then.

My coverage has certainly been worth it. Bob Curry can attest to that.

I think it was pointed out in an earlier post that the regatta organizer's insurance REQUIRES that all participants carry their own insurance.

I have not read US Sailing's regatta liabiltiy policy in a few years, so someone who has a policy currently should probably check that (or call their agent).

If the organizer's coverage requires the participants to carry coverage, then the organizer's policy should outline what is "acceptable" in terms of relieving the organizer of negligence.

Maybe all they need to do is state that insurance is required in the SI.

Maybe the participant has to affirm that they have coverage on the entry form (by their signature)

Maybe they need a copy of the certificate of insurance

Maybe they need a carrier name and policy number, and have to individually verify (geeze, I hope not - that's waay to much work)

Andrew

Why don't the YC's with valuable property require proof of insurance..... Your due diligence argument should apply to them in spades.... My answer...their lawyers told them "Don't do it.... Don't undercut the responsibilities of the skipper."

You wrote


Why again would you want to take ANY responsibility from the skipper and place it on the OA and their staff?

I guess you could carry that argument further. If a YC doesn't really have any assets, why bother with insurance in the first place? It gives personal injury attorneys a reason to sue, right?

I personally don't agree with that comment, but I've had many people say it....

Dave and Mike Hill,

I think that the practice that Scooby point's to is the right way to go!

I don't have a problem with a statement that the skippers sign stating... "I certify that I have 100,000 in liability insurance." (This is the way we used to run things BTW)

If the skipper lies and events come back to bite them... the civil courts will resolve it.

From the sailing side of things... The sport would ban the skipper from future racing. All of the sailing rules are grounded in Corinthian ideals where you self police the game of sailboat racing.

Having this explicit liability agreement on your registration form is not essential but it is a good way to highlight the importance and EXPECTATION of liability insurance.

For example, the huge Chi to Mac race has an enormous list of required gear.... Most of it would be quite useful to save your life as a matter of fact. The OA does not certify that your boat has all of the gear before you race...You agreed to race with all of the gear. What they do is spot check the top boats and a few others in the class for a couple of random items. If you cheated... they toss you.

The game of sailing deals with cheaters by DSQ.

The Coast Guard, State, Federal Law deal with safety, safety gear and liability issues.

Okay insurance boy... I called our rep at Chubb (USSailing Insurance) the last time this issue was brought to a head. There response was yes, the participants are required to carry insurance. I also took that to mean that if you allowed someone to sail without insurance then that was Chubb's out to deny a claim.

That is what spooks me! So, we are either caught by assuming the responsibility of checking insurance or changing the wording and putting the responsibility on the competitor and run the risk of being denied when a claim is filed.

I hate this part of the sport (yes, more than sailing open), it really sucks all the fun out of the game!

Is it time to leave for the Keys yet!!!!?

Thanks for that insight, Ding.

Yes, insurance favorite word is EXCLUDE. It's just above the word PREMIUM in their list of favorites....

THATS IT! I AM CALLING MATLOCK, PERRY MASON and Judge WAPNER TO SETTLE THIS!

So let me get this straight.

1) The OA's insurance company requires that the participants carry and prove insurance.
2) In the case of an "event on the water", the participants insurance is liable.

What then is the risk to the OA's insurance company? Is it there "just in case" the participant's insurance company goes after the OA with lawyers?

Water

Neither Gowrie Barden (USSA insurance) or the David Agency (formerly Meyers Briggs) require individual liability insurance as a pre condition for the OA to purchase regatta liability insurance.

Property owners, may require individual insurance to use their property. Many YC's or marina's will require liability coverage as a condition for keeping your property on their property.

Property owners often require the OA to insure their property for booze, and other liability for the event. That insurance is separate (On the Beach Insurance) and costs you another 400 plus 50 (or so) to name the property owner.

I have never seen a requirement for an individual to have liability coverage.

International events are different. Many examples of one competitor with or without insurance telling the other to get lost (see Mike Hill's story). Events like OCR require you to hand in a zerox of your liability coverage. The USSA OD individual insurance program was modeled on the coverage that the Tornado Olympic guys needed for international events. (it includes boat charters, chartering,)

If you want to do the insurance proof... I think you have to go all the way and collect a copy of the proof of insurance.

Note added.
Dave, that is not the story I got from Chubb.. or David. This was three years ago. Again. If were true... almost every YC would require racers to show proof of insurance... Fact of the matter... all of the CBYRA YC's on the bay DO NOT MENTION LIABILITY INSURANCE nor does the Key West RW NOR.

Gawd, I feel like we are in the same spot as that other issue we were discussing...

Not sure what you mean here. The only way to get banned that I'm aware of is by US SAILING / ISAF. I doubt they would do that over insurance.

If you really want to know what your OA coverage is good for, try banning someone from events. The lawyers will line up for that one.

Mike

Mike
Yes, the YC or OA would petition USSA to ban the individual from all events for sportsmanship. (Time consuming and a PIA).
How else would you run the game?

Of course we could always use the instant justice in the sand solution favored by many for racing violations. In this instance... you would get about 10 fleet members with bats and educate the S.O.B. This is an entirely new game though.

Personally, I choose plan A.... but no doubt... Plan B is fast and a reasonable deterrent to the S.O.B and every body else.

I guess my point is that banning people is a very, very extreme case, and while negligence may be ugly, it may not get someone banned.

It may be hard to prove that someone intended to be fraudulent to the point that they should be banned.

The bats would be cheaper and probably more effective. Wave them around, just don't actually use them. Of course, you'll probably just get sued for making someone feel uncomfortable... and yes, the lawyers would go after Louisville Slugger, and maybe the poor bastard who owned the ash forest...

Mike

As a race organizer, you can reject any entry for any reason, or even no reason, partcularly if you state it in the NOR. Even the Rules of Racing state that you can cancel or exclude a competitor so long as you do it before the start and state the reason.

You CAN, does not equal, this is a good idea.

This has gotten YCs on the banned list...

Mike

I guess some current policy holder needs to confirm one way or another.

I think most YC don't have to ask about insurance because the boats are bigger (over 16') and are registered (which requires proof of insurance). ??

I have never heard of registration requiring proof of insurance.

Alter Cup Area D South Eliminations
Kelly Park River Regatta

That's just two.

Current Tybee NOR - http://www.tybee500.com/race/nor/1/09_tybee_nor.pdf

7. Entrants will be weighed prior to the start, safety equipment will be verified, and
sails will be officially measured and marked by Race Officials. Factory hull numbers
and rating certificates may be required. Proof of liability insurance will be required,
with a copy submitted with registration. Sailing instructions will be available online
shortly after advanced registration.

I mean registration of boats, i.e. licensing!

You are thinking about cars. Boats are different. In MD... it's all about the motor for registration purposes.

do you think the Opti parent does not have liability coverage on his kid's Opti?

Size has nothing to do with liability. YC's don't ask about this insurance coverage stuff because it's a nightmare of paperwork and NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.

I'm not positive, but the GYC regattas may require proof of insurance. It's a requirement of membership.

Membership in the club yes!...

The question here is "Is it a requirement for guests to race" and are you asked to state that you have 100K liability insurance... or are you asked to present proof of insurance.

Think of the liability insurance requirement as part of the game versus a pre-requisite that you must prove in order to participate in the game. If you make it a pre requisite... you better do it properly.

I would certainly agree with that statement. If you're going to do it, you'd be best served by not going 1/2 a**, because that's the sure way to lose....

Yes I agree.

So far, the only reason that I have heard of for requiring proof of insurance is for regattas with international competitors because they can leave the country and not be touched.

Even so, I personally know of a very famous Swedish Olympic medalist who skipped out of a high speed port starboard crunch and refused to pay damages. So even though he had liability coverage... it doesn't mean that you will be covered. S had to use his own insurance and pay the 800 dollar deductible...

Even getting a copy of someone insurance doesnt mean they still have it. Theres nothing stopping someone from getting a policy, paying the premium, and then cancelling it a week later and getting a refund. They still have the piece of paper that says they are insured. Its my understanding that this happens with auto insuance a lot! People get insurance to register their car and then cancel it right after.

Reasoning for requiring insurance is:

1) It is a reminder to those that would normally have gotten insurance and have forgotten, or have simply been too busy.
2) It can be a real benefit when a boat(s) gets damaged on or off the race course.
3) Beachcats are inheriently different than monohulls. We launch and return in areas populated by other people. We have an increased risk for personal liability.
4) It is yet another liability buffer.

Of course its not full proof, but I believe that the vast majority of catsailors I have met are responsible people, and when they say they have insurance, they are being honest about it. I think the majority of catsailors realize insurance is being required because of the benefits to the individual sailors and the event, and not because we like to be a PITA.

We have had two sailors drive their mast up boats on trailers into power lines over the years. No one was hurt and they were good guys who Im sure would not have sued anyone, but their family and relatives? Who knows. Id rather they have insurance just in case.

As for the MYC suit, my understanding (and I very well may be wrong on the details) was that the suit was brought by a sailor who was also a lawyer and it was not over a particular accident, it was more related to a rating and scoring issue. I believe he did eventually lose and it ended up costing everyone a lot of money and time.

At the end of the day, requiring insurance is a relatively simple, inexpensive way, we can add a level of responsibility to our sport while providing some good benefits.

Brian

Most YC's don't require liability insurance
Your point of view is that your club should require it. Ok

The problem is when you require proof to gain entry into the game of racing and don't collect the copy.

If you resolve the issue with a statement on the entry form to the effect of

I certify that I have XXX amount of third party liability insurance.

I suggest this language meets your goals.

You would not open any can of worms and be in line with the EU and not out of line with the YC policy in this country.

Brian... two more questions.

Have you thought through "what you do with the insurance information that you have collected"

If two boats have a collision and one of them demands insurance information from the other but is refused by the sailor and he is now standing in front of you as the OA and demanding you turn over the insurance info ... What do you as the OA do?
If you turn over the copy.... do you violate someone's privacy? Do you call the police? Can he sue you for turning over the paper... It's just an amazing snake pit.

What are you going to do with the certs that you collect. File em... Destroy them by shredding, toss em in the dumpster on the way out of the club. Is this really what your OA wants to be doing?

In the case where the OA held a copy of my documentation it was mailed back to me at the end of the event.

Guess we won't know what does or doesn't work until someone get's sued for damages.

Mail the proof of insurance back...
right! that is the only way to deal with the privacy issue. Can you say... total pain in the butt... not to mention expensive!

Put the statement in the registration form. Keep it part of the game of sailing and don't make it more difficult.

You've made some good points but I'm still not convinced your way is the best way.

Anyway, I'm done. It's time for me to pack the truck and head to the Keys... now where did I put that insurance paperwork.

Mark,

We dont collect the insurance forms, we ask to see them and check to see if they are current. Not a big deal at all, very little effort.

I understand the argument that we problably could go ahead and not check for insurance. If I had to bet, Id guess others dont do it mainly because they perceive it to be a hassle and unnecessary.

I think its important not becuase of all the detailed legal reasons, because it can potentially help a fellow catsailor, and I look at the the people I sail with as good friends. It certainly helped Timbo out when his boat was trashed, and seeing one friend get out of a bad situation was worth the effort.

If a little bit of effort on our part helps out one catsailor every few years Id think it would be worth it. Maybe YCs dont look at it that way? Maybe thats why I sail catamarans.

David has a good point: Are we done yet?

Collect proof of insurance, if nothing else at international events.

Hosts of Hobie NAs go through a lot of work to make insurance available in the event someone shows up without (they can pay to play, even just for the week). This is a step above and beyond, in the interest of helping our fellow sailors. They're not allowed on the water without meeting the minimum requirement, and we don't want to send them home without giving them the chance to have insurance to race.

Waivers are probably fine for everything else (sign here to verify that you're inured...).

If someone cancels their insurance, or photoshops something, or lies, or whatever, that's the individual being fraudulent.

Mike

Agreed, but only if spotted by a hassled person at check in for an event.

My point is that checking the bit of paper adds no value to the process and MAY transfer SOME of the liability.

faq's

Someone wrote me and asked if I would chip into this thread. I handle individual boat insurance, and Regatta Liability insurance (for clubs through The David Agency) being the first to ever provide this type of insurance 30 years ago and have lots of experience with injuries and sadly, deaths.

I always find this stuff easier when breaking it down into pieces:

BOAT OWNER
With or without insurance, the Boat Owner is responsible financially for the operation of his or her boat. He or she can be sued for damaging other peoples property (example - hitting a starboard tack boat), or injuring people (crew gets hit in the head with a boom), of a fatality (boat turtles and the crew gets trapped in the rigging). Let's say for anyone of these examples, the court provides an award to the plaintiff for $750,000 (sank a really big boat, made crew a quadraplegic or the crew died). Without insurance, the individual is responsible to come up with that money. They will find their wages attached for many years (possibly their whole life) and have very little take home pay. Now if they elected to buy insurance on their boat, or as a poster showed previously that in many Home, Condo and Apartment Liability Policies, that Liability Insurance is automatically included at no-charge for sailboats under 26' in length, their insurer will pay the loss up to the policy limit. Now, if the individual bought a $100,000 limit, the insurer pays the $100,000 and walks away (they also will pay all of the lawyers bills for the lawsuit previously mentioned in addition to the $100,000). However, the Boat Owners wages will be attached for the remaining $650,000 (think OJ and how the Goldman family continues to chase after any money he has, years after the verdict). While a lawyer is free to correct me, it is my understanding that filing for personal bankruptcy will not erase the attachment of wages for the remainder of your life, they still go after your wages after coming out of bankruptcy.

What does requiring the boat owners to have insurance at an event do for the boat owners in this instance? It just may help them in the event of calamity, but it also provides another layer of bureaucracy where many studies in sailing have shown that we need to break down barriers to the sport, not add barriers to the sport.

For those who have discussed that "proof of insurance" is meaningless, I would disagree. When you call your agent and ask for a certificate of insurance (which is proof that there is insurance coverage), it includes the effective date and expiration date of the policy, the limit, the Boat Owner's name, the isnurer, and a notice that requires the insurance company to notify the Organizing Authority IF the policy is cancelled for any reason (such as the guy just bought it for the certificate of insurance and then turned around and canceled it 24 hours later after he registered for the event, or had stopped paying his or her premium and canceled for failure to pay premium). Could someone photoshop one? Yes. Would it be a violation of the rules? Yes. When discovered could there be a Rule 69 hearing? Yes. And it would be incredibly easy to prove as the agency's name is right there on the certificate and a simple phone call can uncover a photoshop document faster than a New York Minute? Yes.

This is no different than turning short of the mark and continuing in the race in my book.

Enough about the Boat Owner.

THE ORGANIZING AUTHORITY (OA)
By running an event, the OA can be open to be sued, just as much as anyone else around. Of course the OA needs to do something negligent in order to be found guilty. Did they hoist a marks to port flag, and then switch to a marks to starboard flag during the starting sequence? Were there huge crashes at the windward mark, capsizes, turtles, and injuries and death as half the fleet was turning one way, and the other half the other way around the mark? That would be pretty negligent.

Actually what is the most common in claims is simply someone went overboard and died. Whether the OA is negligent or not, we have defended many of these lawsuits in the Regatta Liability insurance program. If the OA does not have insurance, their bank account will be emptied, more than likely they will file for bankruptcy and cease operations permanently. The injured party will not have any other way to squeeze money out of this entity.

If the OA purchases Regatta Liability insurance, their lawyers bill and any judgment, award or settlement can be paid out of this coverage.

CROSS OVER BETWEEN BOAT OWNER AND OA
With or without insurance, both the boat owner and the OA can be sued separately or together for a single accident, which is common. The same thing said before applies, if either one or both does not have insurance, the individual can have their wages attached, the OA more than likely goes bankrupt. But if both have the ability to pay without insurance (maybe large cash reserves at the club, or the boat owner is very wealthy) or if they both have insurance, what occurs is interesting. Sticking with the earlier story, the Jury awards $750,000 and finds both the boat owner and club liable. What occurs next is that the judge determines proportionately the amount each is responsible for. Let's say the example was an overboard with a fatality. The judge may find that the Boat owner is 90% responsible and the OA 10% responsible (maybe the OA watched the whole thing, never stepped in to offer help, or radio'd for professional help, or anything). These judgments are joint and several. What this means is, if one can't pay their share and the other one can, the other one picks up the full amount, regardless what their proportionate shares are!

Why would an OA make everyone have insurance? 1. It protects their insurance from getting stuck with the potential of many claims (if the guy has no insurance and the crew is injured, it will help prevent the OA from getting involved and save the concerns and headaches of the OA having to deal with someone else's negligence that is not theirs to begin with). 2. I have seen many cases where crew have been injured and either no insurance or low limits of insurance have lead to sad situations where the crew is financially distressed for the rest of their lives.

But I admit, I do recommend to OA's not to require insurance of the participants as long as they have Regatta Liability Insurance (through me, as I can not talk about other knock-offs out there, what they require or don't require). Most certainly the coverage I offer does not require anything such as waivers, boat owners to have insurance or any barriers, I like to hear of participation increasing and making things easy for sailors). I see it as a barrier to entrance in the sport. I see it as a headache for the participant to contact their agent, make sure they get the copy forwarded to the OA, the OA needing to check each and create a long-range filing system (lawsuits might take years before they are filed before the OA is even aware of it, and that recordkeeping is now critical since they required it to begin with).

Yes, it is not fair that the OA gets dragged into accidents which are not their responsibility to begin with. Comparing it to all of the planning, and the time consumed trying to make an event good and prosperous, and then after the spotlight has turned off and have to deal with the headaches, it doe not seem fair for the volunteers. This does happen and it shakes the confidence of the volunteers, typically leading to them finding someone else to take over.

So weigh it for yourselves, are the volunteers at your events due some relief from the possible injuries sustained at the events you go to have fun at, and are still dealing with the potential of being in courts, taking depositions, all because some guy at the event didn't buy insurance at all?

Glen,

Thanks for an excellent and informative post. This really helped my understanding of the insurance/liability issues associated with running events (which I do).

Chris.

Thank for the clarifications Glenn, this answers a few other questions that have come up recently

Thank you Glenn for an outstanding description of how the system works.

Much better to have a pro directly address the issues.

Many thanks

The RR of sailing suggest this language in the NOR

21 Insurance
" Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of xxxxx per event or the equivalent.

Mark Schneider

So, what constitutes "Proof of Insurance" ???

Real proof would follow this kind of standard


Glenn McCarthy

If you canceled the insurance after your company sends it to the OA.... the company is required to notify the OA. This is the level of proof that you would need as an OA.

Anything less then that is basically a silly attempt to find out if you are honest and a man of your word. The general technique is a visual inspection of a piece of paper you say is accurate, up to date and paid for that you get from your company or create on your own. I prefer to be taken at my word with my signature.

Mind you... Since liability insurance covers YOU and your financial loss its hard to see why you would want to misrepresent it. Its crazy to think that the other people are safer out on the reac course. There is no promise that your liability insurance will pay the other guy if they don't agree you were guilty of something.... they make that call, courts resolve the difference of opinion.

Either a Declaration Page from your policy (comes with the bill) or a Binder (comes from the insurance co. before they issue the policy)

You can also have your insurance agent generate a "Certificate of Insurance" on a standard form. Generally, they'll do that at no charge and fax/e-mail it to whoever needs it.

The certificate is the easiest, and could be e-mailed to whomever requested it... Coming from a licensed agent, the OA could be assured the coverage is from a reputable source...