Tradewinds Day 1

Early report has the fleets completing 4 races in 12 - 15 mph breeze. One bit of carnage news involved a N20 vs. a Wave. Mike Hill is done for the event, after scoring a bullet in the 2nd race. More to follow.

hmmmm, sounds like the Wave won that contest. Bummer for Mike.

Wave will win any contest short of a tug boat :P

Crushed bow on the N20, not a scratch on the wave. We just thought the N20's were bulletproof..

No pictures so it must not have happened.

oh...it happened.

I will catch hell for even mentioning it.. BUT... should N20s and Waves even be on the same course at the same?

I'd be scared to be on a wave with a bunch of spin boats (esp N20s) flying around.

Patrick, at tradewinds they are not on the same course. Waves usually run a smaller course that is inside the bigger course.

Imagine two triangles one inside the other, all non spin boats are on the inside course, all others are on the outside.

Problem is all boats cross into each others course lines. I am interested in knowing what happened? port/starboard? was a protest filed? etc etc.

Inquiring minds want to know.

If they use the same signal boat, they're on the same course.

Robles,

From what I heard, Mike was on port.

Disclaimer: This is the information that was passed to me from those at the event.

From what I have heard, BOTH boats were on port, but it was a windward-leeward situation -- Wave going to windward and N-20 going downwind.

My worst nightmare.

I will try to get the whole scenario for you soon.

closing speed would have been what... 20 kn or so? ouch.

If this is such a "big" event, then why not have separate race courses for spin and non-spin? Having both very slow and very fast boats on the same course is just crazy. This is one of the very reasons I have only attended one Tradewinds in the last 14 years. If everyone is coming into a gate or the same finish area, collision factor high!
My opinion.

Bob

And so the discussion on the PRO / Organizing Authority Liability discussion re Tradewinds starts.

background reading.... Glenn McCarthy in the why proof of liability thread and the Safety Boat standards by Paul Ullibari in the PRO liability thread.

Hey, Bob,
When you are down here in the hinterlands where there is little sailing at all, much less catamaran sailing, trying to find people and boats to help with a regatta is VERY difficult.

We are lucky if we get enough people to set up and run ONE course (with inside and outside courses).
Two SEPARATE courses would be impossible. We do the best with what we have to work with.

To me, it is always a miracle that we manage to get enough boats and people to make the regatta happen, when we don't have a fleet in our area to help out.

I always figure we are very lucky if we have two chase boats.

So what do you think? Should the Tradewinds Regatta just not happen any more? OR do you want to volunteer to bring additional powerboats and people for race committee so we can have two separate courses?

Big thanks to all those who did come from outside the Keys to help out with the event!!

Mary

Interesting comment from Bob. Even more interesting is the comment from Mark, are you implying that the PRO, RC or event organizers should/could be held responsible?

An even better is the reply from Mary to Bob, I am interested in reading what Bob has to say (I am sure others as well)

Internet sailing is great!

Mary, all,

Just expressing my opinion.

Bob

Bob and Mark,
Bob I respect your opinion, but without knowing any of the circumstances, it appears you have offended the RC/Mary. The more this kinda thing happens the less they'll want to put on events.
Mark,
Every time you bring up litigation and responsibility issues you put another nail in the coffin of grassroots catsailing. Most people don't even think of that kind of thing until you plant that seed in their head. Alot like the discussion we had at Spring Fever. ALOT of folks read this stuff. I know for you and alot of folks this stuff is an academic discussion but for the people who try to scrap together enough resources to put on a race, it's alot of stuff to put in the con category and quit doing it.
Mark, You are and have done great things for Catsailing but bringing up all these doomsday topics is definitely not one of them.
I hope this makes some sense, it did to me.
Todd

Bob I am sure you are very aware that opinions are like a$$holes.

Robbi

The context of the discussion is "What is the extent of the PRO/ OA liability."

Bob Curry's opinion is It's CRAZY to run the regatta this way. Why? he says it's unsafe to have spin and non spin boats on the course at gates and finishes.
Agree or disagree with the opinion on the merits. .. or if you are me... you say the issue about safety is out of bounds. All of the sailors knew they were coming to an event with 1 race circle and a mix of boats from Waves to Nacra 20's (NOR and the PR before the event). Each captain made their own judgment about safety. The PRO was not negligent in running a race with Wave's and Nacra 20's.

Bob Curry can say that race management is not good enough for him personally to have a good time and to drive from the panhandle. No problem with that opinion.

Second point.
Paul Ulibarri has written that there is an expectation of safety by sailors and the minimum requirement is three RC boats for the regatta. Moreover they would have trained safety personnel or the regatta is not safe. Agree or Disagree with the merits of that position or if you are like me you say the issue of the number of support boats/safety requirments is out of bounds.

Again, the decision to go racing was the captain's alone and if they did not like the ratio of support boats to racers or the looks of the support boat staff or powerboat they should stay on the beach.

It would be fine if the decide the race management is not good enough for their personal tastes. I do not think the OA is negligent for running the regatta with two support boats.

Mark,
I agree with you,(never thought I'd say that) but when you throw "And so the discussion on the PRO / Organizing Authority Liability discussion re Tradewinds starts." something like this up when there is an altercation it doesn't make folks want to jump in. It could be taken either way, because it followed Bob's post I figured you were backing his point of view. I expect about 15%, if that many, of the regattas I attend would meet P.U.'s guidelines. That would thin my racing season out considerably. Enough Hijack.

NOW ...Let's hear some Tradewinds stories, c'mon guys.

And if possible some pictures!

Pics are on the way, we got a few. (hundred)

To address the argument, the regatta ran GREAT! We had very few incidences . I can't even remember any race that I'd been in where thee was not some close calls. We had safety boats/mark boats watching the entire course

2 yrs ago I was glad there was sufficient chase boats there to pick my butt out of the water as my boat had sailed away from my crew and I, who were dead tired(fat and out of shape), maybe chip short? Dont remember, but they were great!

OK, since we're killing time telling stories of RC and TW past, I got rescued by a Wave and RC last year after a series of repeated righting-reflippings.

Where's da results?!! Top 3 in class at least?

The event was great, the RC did a great job of getting races off.

I think some people were scared off by the weather report, but once again never listen to the weatherman (like Bob), we had great sailing weather.

There were Waves all over, and I20s all over, and F16s, H16s, A-Cats, and F18s and even a couple sharks. You go around them like any other regatta.

Come on Bob, your scared of boats at the mark? Your scared, really??

Okay, here are first three in each class. Rick will have full results and story and pictures tomorrow on our home page.

A-Class (5 boats)
1. Smyth
2. Webbon
3. Pitt

F-16 Fleet (5 boats)
1. McDonald
2. Bohan
3. Cross

F-18 Fleet (8 boats)
1. Daniel/Rodriguez
2. Easton/Burd
3. Krantz/Lennard

Hobie 16 Fleet (9 boats)
1. Korzeniewski/Taxwell
2. Borg/Heatherington
3. Hilk/Korz

Nacra 20 Fleet (12 boats)
1. Newkirk/Holmes
2. Brown/White
3. Smith/Hoffman

Portsmouth Fleet (3 boats)
1. Davis (Hobie 17)
2. Pattenaude/Sherry (Shark)
3. Putney (Shark)

Wave Fleet (10 boats)
1. Leah White
2. Stan Woodruff
3. Dave White

52 boats and Bob is worried about too many boats around?

How big were the courses Mary. 1+ mile windward?

Outside course was 1.1 miles on Saturday and .9 on Sunday when the wind was lighter. Inside course was .2 to .3 miles shorter than the outside course.

Nice to once again see how easy it is to stir the pot!

Y'all make me proud.

BC

Bob - don't be a hater!

So nice size course for the outside loop; and the inside sounds about right for "slow" boats.




And this helps how?

Huh? Bob, I don't know where you have been sailing these last 20 years since the spinnaker boats started meshing in with all the rest of the non-spinnaker boats. But, all the regattas I have gone to ALL MY LIFE have had a mix of slow boat and fast boats.
Perhaps in a perfect world your perfect race course might show up. I believe you opinion was not very well thought out.

On another note, Dave White really felt sorry for Mike and Holly. Dave used to build boats and also said he would help repair it so they could continue to sail.
And you all are right, not even a scratch on the Wave.

I will have story and pictures up within a few hours.., 900 pictures to wade through!?!?!?!?!?
Rick

Whats more important is that there wasn't even a scratch on Dave Mike or Holly right?

Sorry I missed the regatta. I too, have been plucked from the water during a tradewinds event by a chase boat

Looks like Capt. Kirk is still out there teaching the young'uns how to do it.

Yes, all were walking and talking just fine.

Kirk and Glen won the Carlton Tucker Memorial Trophy for the winners of the largest class. In intro for Kirk, I said, "Just goes to show that old age and lechery prevail over youth."


Kirk had some great starts and was always in the hunt near the front of the pack. Great sailing on their part.


Rick

Mike's stb. hull suffered a nasty crunch/split extending about 1 foot back. It's fixable, as Jake repaired a boat with a similar type split back to the first bulkhead on another boat.

Ironically enough, Mike said his port hull was repaired earlier, and it suffered little (if any) damage.

Viewing the Wave, it would appear that Mike hit the main beam with his stb. hull. The Wave (# 66 I believe) has a main beam that sticks out about 2 inches from the rest of the hull, and that seems to be what really did the damage. I cannot begin to think what was going through the skipper's mind as the N20 came flying at him.

I'm sure Mike will give a firsthand report on here soon, but from what I understand, he was headed downwind (presumably on port) and was ducking another wave when the one he hit "came out of nowhere" from under the spinnaker. Mike and his crew were actively looking for other boats, but it was just one of those wierd sets of circumstances. The closing speed was very high, further complicating things.

Yes, having an inside course for non-spin boats helps, but the spin boats on the bigger course still picked their way through the other fleets on at least one of the legs in each race. The "B" mark may have helped keep the spin and non-spin boats apart on the first lap, but it was up to each skipper/crew after that to pick their course... (notice this last part)

To address Mary's points, if there were that many people around willing to set up to entirely different racing areas, it would be great. But the real world circumstances dictate doing what provides the most opportunity for the most people. I commend them for all their hard work at making a regatta like this possible.

Now, if we can convince all the other people to buy N20 or F18, we wouldn't have this problem, right?

I thought a "Master" of anything wouldn't be worried about sailing around slower boats. So as "Class Director" how do you run the races?

I don't understand why Mr. Curry thinks the Wave (or any "slow boat") was "the Problem". Any time you have any boats going upwind, while spinnaker boats are coming downwind, these things can happen.

We nearly T-boned Mike Krantz while we were coming downwind at high speed and we too were activly looking for other boats coming at us all day long. But we never saw him as we were also having a -developing situation- with a boat in our class as we converged on opposite gybes, and we were hailing him "Starboard".

Mike was below our kite coming upwind fast, so we never saw him, or heard him hailing us, as we were looking the other direction at the converging boat to our right, when all of a sudden, from behind the kite, out pops Mike, about 20 feet in front of us.

Luckily for all of us he was in the process of bearing off to let us by when he didn't see us bear away, and as soon as Andi saw him he pulled the tiller and slammed our bows down, sending me for a trip to the bow and back. Ask Seth about that!

There have been plenty of other similar incidents at most regattas with a good turnout. I never assume the other guy sees me unless I see his eyeballs and he waves at me, and me at him. We were damn lucky Mike moved for us or it would have been very ugly.

Sounds to me like all you "delicate" boat owners need to buy Waves, THEN we wouldn't have this problem!

If everyone had a wave we could do crazy 8 courses and play bumper boats!

Todd
GOOD!.... THAT IS MY FREAKIN POINT... IMO ignorance is not blissfull....While you have your head burried in the sand, dreaming of the grass roots days of sailing... somebody will bite your butt off or even worse DIE ...

When you don't take 100 percent responsibility to race or continue racing.... Its dangerous to me as a sailor on the course... as PRO, and as an Organizing Authority.

Accidents happen.... We deal with them. RR 1.1 is safety first.

It WOULD NOT BE AN ACCIDENT if some one goes out racing THINKING that X and Y and Z were REMOTELY responsible for their butt's safety or rescue. That would be NEGLIGENCE!

You get it... you race off shore and don't think anybody else will save your butt. Same standard for a buoy race or a casual sail off the beach.

Just look at all of the opinions which put responsibility on the PRO and OA...Bob Curry just declared spin boat and non spin boat race courses unsafe and cooked the OA for setting up the race this way. If a serious injury had occurred in the wave/n20 crash don't you think the insurance company on the hook for the money will be blaming the OA and their insurance company.

Now That will kill off a LOT of sailing!

Early Saturday morning conditions were so bad, I decided not to even take the boat of the trailer. But, by 11:00 it had laid down to 12-15 and remained nice the rest of the day.

Sunday was good as well, 8-10 I would guess, until a little after noon and then it got very squirrely i.e crazy shifts and wind around 6 with some puffs to 10.

There was some cloud cover on both days so at times it was a little chilly, until you remembered it's freakin' January!!

Good regatta, good crowd.

btw- My wife and I finally got a room at "The Islander". It's usually sold out and a little pricey, but it would be my choice. Plenty of room for boats and trailers and nice big rooms with 'fridge, stove and the like. If you're thinking about next year, book early, very early.

While I was fiddling around with boats, my wife stopped into a place called "Ocean Dawn Suites". No room for boats, but a very nice place. They mentioned they would like to be a sponsor next year.

We like being in the Keys, regardless of weather, so "Tradewinds" is our only must regatta.

Well **** far...Frank and I both had a great freaking time and will be back for yet another Tradewinds installment next year!

Or Waves!
Yes, I know it is redundant!
Rick

If everyone had waves, 1/2 of the fleet would be asleep at the tiller by the time they got to "A" mark.



But the older I get, the more appealing the "One string to pull" rule becomes

Asleep? You have got to be kidding. If you miss a wave, miss a shift, miss anything, you will be out the back of the fleet. The boats are all the same and the only way you can do well is to be right on top of your game. Asleep?

The competition in the Wave Fleet is absolutely awesome -- anyone can win at any time.
You cannot buy a victory with a better sail, better this or better that. A newer this or a new that.
All of the major regattas rarely see any one person, sail or whatever dominate.
This is pure and simply one design sailing at is level best.

I have sailed every type of hot, high-tech boat introduced to mankind and I can tell you that I have never had more fun and had better competition than I have had in the Wave Fleet.

I know many folks don't think of the Wave as a REAL boat, but believe me it is.

Look at history, by the way. Do you remember when the Hobie 14 came into existance. I was like you back then. I was sailing Sharks and Tornados. I remember yelling at a H14 sailor, "Get that little rubber ducky out of the way!"

Yet those little rubber ducks produced some great sailors, i.e., Bob Curry, Carlton Tucker, Hobie Alter, JR., Jeff Alter, Wayne Schaffer (sp?), et al

So, please don't knock the fastest growing catamaran class in America.

Rick

I tend to side with Rick on this one. I've raced Waves and although the speed isn't thrilling, the racing is very very close and every mistake will cost you hugely. The lack of speed is easily offset by the evenness of the platforms.

This is what monohull sailors say about their slow rides... "Oh the racing is close.... you catamarans sail to the ends of the course and only see each other at the marks... What fun is that... where are the tactics.

What makes the Wave better then a Laser.... no hiking and no trapeezing?

Hiking helps in a blow.

How many times a year do you get to race straight up against a lot of equal boats? Once or twice? The Waves have at least seven major races per year with nearly 30 competitive boats on the line.

Not many classes can say that, can they, Mark?
Rick

Rick... Not here to bash the wave. but I will give you the argument back.

You are making the slowness of the boat a feature, since the racing that follows is physically in close proximity.
Personally, I don't see this as a plus but a result of the boat being slow.

You are talking about 8 regattas a year in the USA. Again, that would not be a selling point to me. Regional championships without a regional schedule to race is not a plus for me.

Finally,
You are setting up the competitiveness of the fleet as a selling point and argue that most fleets can't do better.

In the USA, The 16, 17, 18, A Class, F18 and Nacra 20's all have far more racing across the country. I don't think they would agree that the wave class is remotely their equal with respect to competition. The Hobie 20, Isotope and Shark Class are more regional classes with about the same number of events.
At any rate,your argument is just an assertion and doesn't persuade me.

People race boats because they like to sail the particular boat and racing is another way to enjoy the boat and join people who share that same experience ... thus forming the class.

What is it about a WAVE relative to a laser or sunfish or pico that makes you want to sail and race it.

What is it about a WAVE that makes you want to sail it over a Hobie 14, Hobie 17, Isotope or A class.... leaving out the spin single handers.

This is not the proper thread or forum to be talking about all the advantages of any boat over another.

I'll just add that it all depends on what your idea of fun is.

Indianapolis hosts the Indy 500, Brickyard 400 and US Grand Prix: the highest levels of auto racing. But each event is surrounded by numerous short-track, dirt-track and even go-cart races around the area. The top name drivers often join in on these other races, because they say they're more FUN. And they usually get beaten by the up-and-coming drivers!