Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course

Take a look at this idea and let me know your thoughts.
Rick

Rick goofed on the course instructions. For the orange course, after the first time around the "A" mark, it would be windward-leewards between "B" and "C", not between "A" and "C." He will fix that on the diagram after lunch.

I don't see that this course is safer. The spin boats will be coming to the finish very "hot". Probably traped out under spin. Imo, the spin boats need to finish to weather, not on a reach.

What if both "B" marks were in close proximity, and constituted a gate for the yellow course? You would have very high closing speeds for both fleets, but you would also have the greatest visibilty for both fleets. Then if the orange "C" was directly downwind of "B" and orange finish was through the original start line you would maintain good separation of the fleets and optimal visibility.

Hi Rick,

You really, really, really want separate finish lines here.

Plan A: The safest thing to do is set up a mark boat positoned as a finish boat at the orange C mark. That will ensure complete separation and maximize safety for all. EDIT: It is best for the orange C mark to be a gate for this to work correctly, otherwise you'll have a potential for boats to be rounding the mark to port while others are trying to do a downwind finish. Tie the mark boat to the starboard gate mark for the finish line.

Plan B: Have the yellow course boats finish on the starboard side of the signal boat, and the orange boats on the port side. This would help if you're short on power boats. You'll need two people calling the finish. It would help to make the starboard finish pin yellow, and the port one orange. Then you can just tell the sailors to pay attention to their mark colors.

As a separate note, I wouldn't bother with the yellow B mark unless you have an abundance of mark boats, or an extremely steady wind. That's a lot of stuff to move around when the wind shifts.

Mike

Well, I know I am not crazy about Rick's current course suggestion. It's great to get LOTS of different suggestions and do some brainstorming. Keep it going.

Hi Pete,
Perhaps the course does reflect it very well, but the last leg for orange would still be downwind, not a screaming reach. It would be skewed to one side is all. And there would be good visibility for slow and fast boats to see what was coming.., there would be no blind-sided collisions. And they would all be going the same direction.
On your suggestion, Somehow, you lost me. Sorry, but would appreciate an enlightenment.

Brucat,
Keep in mind we are limited in powerboats, powerboat operators, people and marks.
The Yellow course absolutely HAS to have a couple of reaching legs for the H16s and Waves.., The Waves for sure hate W/L courses.., very boring for them.

As Mary said the more feedback the better.
Rick

Have faith Mary. Trapezoids can be scary in concept, but are brilliant when executed well in practice. I'm not aware of anything better for separating fleets (other than completely separate courses).

EDIT: Well, there's Digital N, but that's probably only fun for team racing.

Mike

Understand the boredom issue well, Rick. As a H16 racer, B marks are boring (follow the leader), unless it's blowing like stink.

As for constrained resources, your best bet is Plan B above. Your diagram already shows all the marks you need (just make the yellow finish pin yellow). You just need one set of eyes watching each side of the signal boat.

I misread your orange course, and now that I see it again, it should be:

S-A-B-C-B-C-B-C-F

Yes, that will be a screaming reach finish for orange, but it will help you a ton because everyone will want to finish at the orange pin, giving LOTS more separation from the barn doors coming down to the yellow finish line.

It's also strategically better for the sailors because it keeps the passing lanes open longer (B-C leg then short reach rather than B-F follow-the-leader down the whole course).

Hope this helps.

Mike

Disregard, I think Brucat said it better.

If you ask a Wave sailor if the reaches are boring, you will not get that answer. That is the reason the designated class course calls for two upwind legs, two reaches and one downwind. They hate downwind.

Two finish lines is plausible but I think not necessary. For example if the H16s are tacking downwind they might cross the line on a broad reach on starboard, having rights over the spin boats on port. However, both would be able to see each other and do something about it.
If the H16 was on port on a broad reach they would both be going the same direction (keeping in mind the spin boats would also be on a broad reach, not a screaming reach (diagram is not perfect).
The Waves will probably not even be in the area (either already finished or farther back. But even so, they would be visible to all downwind sailors on broad reaches, spin boats or not.

By having one finish line, we would have the start line ready to go and could get races off faster. Otherwise we would all be waiting for some very slow boat way back having to finish through the orange finish, and then reset the start mark after he finishes. More time consuming.
From my own experiences the worst RCs are the ones that fiddle around forever between races while I am bobbing around. That is why I always try to be a stickler about being prompt to start races and have as little dead time between races.

On the bay the RC's are having good results with a leeward start line. A single C mark above the start line a short A mark for dinghy's and slow cats with a finish boat a bit above the rumb line and then a long A mark for fast cats with an offset hippty hop when you have spin cats.

Courses are Start A C Finish to weather at the short A mark or insert an additional A C lap.

When your fleet finishes, they mosey back to the start area, The Class Flag goes up when all are back to the start area and you have your five minute sequence.

It allows a lot of boats and classes to use the same circle and you are never waiting long.

It keeps the majority of the fleet away from the start area so you don't have any interference with fleets with very different starting styles. EG... lasers think they are keeping clear of a starting cat fleet by reaching back and forth about 20 yards below the line.... The kids especially are stunned to find a cat screaming at them with a minute to go while creeping up to the line through their little parade.

A separate finish line on the other side of the signal boat causes troubles with a fleet finishing while another stages to start.... in the middle of their finish line.

The dinghy's really really want a traditional reach leg since it does not effect their tactical race (as does a vocal segment of the beach cat world.) But you have to move a lot of stuff when the wind changes.

You only need a gate when when one of your OD fleet is pushing 25 or 30 boats. With a single C mark, the fast boats always know the best way around the dinghy's is the outside route and rule become a little easier to follow.

We have a finish position program that records finish positions and times. If you have a wireless card you can send the results to the club for posting before the fleet hits the beach. The program is used for all of the Key West Race circles, Screwpile and Annapolis Race Week. Even if you don't send the results into a scorekeeper... it saves a hell of a lot of time not having to enter the sail numbers.

Rick,

I think if you use your existing course but move the start / finish line under the c-marks (outside the course) it will open up a whole lot of water for boats approaching C marks. With the start/finish in the course and lines closed (understandably) they really funneled a lot of opposing traffic around the ends of the lines.

Hi Rick,

I agree and was trying to make that point, but it didn't come across (all fleets want something different sometimes). I like reaches too, but only when there's more than 8 or 10 knots. But, I've watched Waves and 14s race straight downwind in light air, yuck...

I was just giving my best advice for maximum separation. I had a feeling you were concerned about banging out lots of starts, that's a major priority of mine too.

Most of the time I have to force myself to slow down so I don't burn people out. I'm usually finishing stragglers on the water, resetting the line and banging out starts as the last boats are just coming back to the area...

Mike

Could one course round to stb, and the other round to port?

I'm thinking that the real hazard is downwind/reaching legs with boats of different performance characteristics (non-spin/spin). Separating this portion might reduce chances of collisions because upwind the performance differences are less severe and visibility is better.

with B marks on different sides of the course, you could have them going on different sides, and converge only for C-A upwind and start/finish?

Think of two ABC courses (one inside the other like curent layout) with the B marks in different directions. Spin boat course would have a very short B mark (just to move the rhumbline away from the start/finish bouy) to the left (rounding to port), and non-spin boats would have longer B mark off to right (rounding to stb.).

Spin boats start upwind first, which gives non-spin boats time to leave A to stb. and reach to B before spin boats start upwind again...

Unless I misunderstand how this would work I have an issue with the last B rounding for the orange course: If you want to go deep to the finish you are basically doing a rounding followed by an immediate jibe, aka up to a 270 around the mark which may cause mayhem with the boats following you: you'll end up on port downwind, raising a spi and dodging traffic...

I think Rick's suggestion is good. The only problem with it is that last A mark rounding has to be followed by an immediate jibe. This would cause problems around A mark with traffic coming in on Starboard with Port downwind boats coming right at them.

My suggestion is below and would use the exact same amount of marks at Rick's course.

Looks like Plan A from my original post.

Mike

Yep, I think exactly the same as brucat's suggestion. I didn't read and comprehend everyone's posts. I certainly had no idea what Waterbug was talking about with port and starboard roundings. That really sounds like a mess.

I also moved B mark to be more square with A. I really hate going on a half downwind/half reach leg with a chute. In high winds it can be a recipe for disaster.

I see the same problem.., good observation. The last windward mark rounding (Orange B) could be pretty ugly.
Back to the drawing board.

At Savannah, the Solings came straight from the C (Orange leeward mark) to the finish on a reach.
That does not sound like a fun finish to me.
Rick

At the cost of one additional buoy you can put an offset mark on B. End of the problem with the rounding.

Not seeing how the offset would help. You'd still have the fleet crossing the course to finish from B, and worse, it's a one-way parade down the whole length of the course. B-F (at the starting boat) simply does not work for trapezoids.

Rick, most of the traps I've seen used are essentially inside-outside loops, with all boats finishing on the left side of the course somewhere (like John W's posted SIs). That is not what you want with Waves and spinnaker cats, so we have to think outside the box a bit.

I think you're basically there. There are going to be limitations, because your primary focus is to separate fleets for safety. Finishing the orange boats at their gate and the yellow boats at the starboard side of the signal boat is probably the best plan, because that will also allow you to have starts as fleets are finished (without waiting for everyone).

But of course, it's a balance. If you push to start the spin cats while waiting for the yellow boats to finish, you will have mixed boats on the same side of the course again...

Mike

For the Havamega, which will have Hobie 17s, 18s and Waves on the Bravo course, I'm planning to use a course similar to what was used at the youth championships (that John posted), except that I'll have a separate finish line for the Waves set about 200 yds to leeward of the starting line.

That way, the Waves will have their reaches and will be clear of the bigger boats.

This is also presuming I'll have the number of Waves there to justify using 5 extra marks and at least 4 mark boats to manage the course.

Put the waves on a reaching "figure 8" on the right hand side of the course, and everyone else on a w/l course off to the left...

Just so everyone is talking about the same thing, here's John's trapezoid link (was in another post):

http://www.abyc.org/upload/2009YouthWorldQualifierSIs.pdf

I've seen a finish line set up at Mark 5 at some Opti and Laser events (including Olympic Trials). This works well when the boats are of somewhat comparable speed, you send the first fleet(s) around the "other loop" and the later ones around the "inner loop." They all finish at the Mark 5 finish line, and this keeps the starting line clear and ready.

Not sure that this would work with spins and Waves, because I think eventually, the spinnakers are going to catch the Waves, but I suppose with some practice, we could get it to work.

If I'm understanding Matt correctly, he plans to send the Waves off first, over to the "outer loop" and eventually down to a finish line at Mark 5. The 17s and 18s would stay on the "inner loop" and do standard W/L courses, finishing at the signal boat. Or, are you thinking of another arrangement Matt?

Mike

That's basically it, Mike.

If I've got enough playground, I'm going to try to give the Waves an upwind finish after they round Mark 5. The mark boat assigned to that part of the course would set a line a couple hundred yards upwind of Mark 5, but still far enough below the main S/F line so they wouldn't interefere with the 18 and 17 finishers.

The Waves would go either S-1-2-3G-5-F or S-1-2-3G-2-3G-5-F, depending on the wind velocity. I can stage it so that everybody finishes about the same time.

The only "dangerous crossing" is when the Waves are reaching to Mark 2, since they'll be crossing the port layline to the 17s weather mark (further to weather of Wave's Mark 1). Waves will be on stbd.; 17s on port. Could get interesting.

BTW, these are the racing circles for the HAVAMEGA:


Alpha Course:
Tiger, H-20, FX-One

Bravo Course
H-18, H-17, Hobie Wave

Charlie Course:
H-14, H-16, H-16 TrapSeat, any other non-championship classes

Hi Matt,
Curious why the Wave would not be on the same course as the H14 as they are of similar speed -- 14s being a bit faster.
Rick

Charlie course (where the 14s are) is for the non-North American Championships (with the exception of the 16 Trapseat). The area's a lot more restricted than Bravo Course.

We're trying to give all the classes with NA championships cleaner wind and fewer chances for inter-class interference by putting them on the northern side of the island and restricting the circles to a maximum of 3 classes.

Of course, this could all fall apart if we don't get the number of mark boats (estimated between 9 and 15) and volunteers (as many as 55 each day) to pull this off.

I'll know a lot more when I get back from the test event next weekend.

Matt,

I think your modification of the trapezoid course is an improvement compared to the youth championships. I observed a few problems with the the youth champs course. For one, I don't think it is good to have a giant committee boat at the port end of the starting line. This can get messy. Also, it was difficult to run a new start while the other fleet was still on the 1-4 course. The gate was right in front of the start line (above the RC boat and not as shown in the SI's) so you can have the situation where boats are coming into the gate while the new fleet is starting. And this did happen. Also, the boats finishing upwind can get pushed into the starting area. The best modification I saw was at the Youth Worlds in Kingston. They had one start finish line (RC boat on stbd end) and finished boats sailing the outer windward leeward course (2-3)at mark 5. That way the S/F area was clear for starters or finishing boats on the 1-4 windward leeward course. With the waves starting first, I would think you would have the problem of the 17's catching them on the first weather leg.

Greg

This will not be a North Americans for the Waves. That is scheduled for Melbourne, FL
Rick

These courses are not going to make the Waves very happy.., way too much downwind sailing. The official course of IWCA is a triangle, windward and leeward finish. The reason is they all hate downwind sailing (very boring) and tacking downwind simply does not pay off. Thus, the official course offers two upwinds, two reaches and one downwind.

I know the class is open to all kinds of ideas, as long as it doesn't make for MORE downwind legs.., less preferrably.

Rick

HAVAMEGA is the HCA Wave North Americans.

Your event in FL is the IWCA North Americans.

It's kinda like the WBA and WBC in boxing.
Maybe we'll come up with some kick-butt belts for the champs to wear . .


. . . or not.

Great Idea

The first course has 3 upwind legs, 2 reaches and 1 downwind leg.
The second one has 4 upwind legs, 2 reaches and 2 downwind legs.

The Hobie 14 goes dead downwind, too - those legs are incredibly tactical (in a slow, painful death sort of way) as the fleet jockeys to maintain clear air from behind.

Matt's suggestions should work perfectly. The only thing I would add is to add a buffer between the start of the Waves and the warning for the following class (5 minutes should do it), to give enough time for the Waves to be out of the way before the 17s start running after them.

Mike