F18 Worlds - a statement of multihull strength

According to someone who read The Daily Sail, it recently pointed out that the F18 worlds gathered 160 participants, even after the number of competitors per nation was capped.

For instance, it would seem that the UK was only allowed 20 entries, so 30 boats had to compete for the right to participate.

Compare this with:

- 32 participants at the 2009 18 foot skiff "worlds", the JJ Giltnan Cup
- 80 participants at the 2008 49er worlds in Melbourne
- 110 participants at the 2008 Star worlds.

So much for ISAF's assertion that there is no interest in multihulls!

Throw the H16 Worlds in there and really show them some multihull numbers

Yes, but the H16 should be compared to the Laser, both being one manufacturer boats.

Last F18 Worlds in Spain - 132 participants.

So maybe F18 is the right boat for the Olympics...

For clarity, is a "participant" a single boat, or are the participants the two sailors?

20 Lasers = 20 sailors, 20 F18's = 40 sailors. So which is the Participant, the boat or the sailor?

160 boats, 320 participants.

if popularity is your criteria... it's a Hobie 16!

You forget the A-class. Last Worlds 2009 in Australia 100 boats ( max allowed). Europeans A-class in France 89 boats.
Worlds in the US end 2007 around 90 boats from all over the world. The up coming Europeans in Austria expected number around 90 again.
So this is also a multihull class where ISAF could see that there is interst in mutlihull sailing.

Hans

H16 didnt thay cancel their world championships this year?

I think the point here is multi's get numbers and ISAF needs to recongize that along with the IOC.

Yeahbut...how many of those "numbers" are actually members of US Sailing? Isn't that how they keep score? We all know most cat racers are -rogue elements- and would not be part of any organization that would have them as a member!

]

Makes me wonder if we're actually the minority we are presumed to be...or if we are just the minority in the leadership of the sport. We have both a perception and an organizational problem. Easy to talk about - hard to fix.

That was more about the economy than anything else. H16 Worlds are sailed in provided boats. Hobie Cat Europe was concerned they wouldn't be able to sell the 60+ boats in a reasonable time after the event.

Is there anyway to get a multihull selection other than going thru US Sailing? Seriously Does ISAF ONLY recognize them as the "Governing Body" for the US?

Multihull selection for what? If you're talking about the Olympics, US Sailing is only one of the many national organizations that votes for the Olympic boat selection. Our problem is our reps maneuvered some tricky new voting rules and they did not vote for the multihull in the final outcome. Other countries did not vote for the multihull as well.

Be careful what you wish for...Good to remember that the Tornado One Design historically had several manufacturers and large fleets...

The boat selected will be OD. Only the Tiger has a shot as far as F18's go.

The Olympic selection (if returned to medal competion) has to be an internationally recognised class. Must also meet the ISAF standards for world wide and national championships. The new "One Design" Tornado , and Hobie Tiger F-18 are the final two boats on the list.

The Tiger? Nah, that would make too much sense. The IOC would probably pick some obscure or non-existant French cat, just like they did for the youth cat!

There were submisions from many manufactures but the Tiger was the only ISAF recognised class that fit the needs.

This shows how faulty the IOF selection proces is.

Catamaran sailing is simply not the way the committee thinks it is. Afterall, the Tiger class itself pushed through many design changes over the years making their OD claim rather strenuous.

Basically it is to only class that felt it necessary to hold up the facade of OD-ness while basically being a Formula based design in reality. How many Tigers are truly OD compliant ?

No, the committee needs to look at cat sailing in the way it is (has become) a field where Formula principles have become to dominate. They should choose a design that reflects that. Not some two hulled dinghy class equivalent.

Wouter

Really for the olympics, there should be two events:

- team sailing
- solo sailing (eventually men/women)

The point system should be eliminated, as it is hard to understand for the uninitiated, and replaced with some kind of elimination scheme so the boat finishing the last race in first place get the medal.

Add on-the-water umpires for immediate decisions (no more protests after the end of the race).

For equipement provide the boats and sell them after the event.

For team sailing use Extreme 40 on silly short constrained courses as they do for the iShare cup. It would be fun, entertaining, challenging and it's a SMOD class already. Throw in mandatory mixed sex crew for diversity, minimum two of each sex, One trimmer per sail, one skipper and one tactician not allowed to touch any controls on the boat.

For solo sailing, get some flying moths (or whatever is the current solo craze) on the same course with the same rules.

That would be good for the sport. That would be exciting. Highly visible. Marketable. But that will never happen because of politics.

The thing about cats is, we are a minority, fact, so we have less classes, there are many cat classes but few of them have a strong international following compared to dinghy classes. If you want to race an international two person cat, these days most people probably would go F18, (some people who have strong H16 fleets may go H16), if we compare this to the dinghy world there are many international two person dinghies- 49er, international 14, fireball, cherub, list goes on. Still we're too fast for the olympics.

And just to throw another aspect into the hat: We had 98 Hobie Tigers sailing at the Tiger Worlds here in Santa Barbara in'05.



J

Wasn't that the carnage 30knot year?

[quote=JakeMakes me wonder if we're actually the minority we are presumed to be... [/quote]

Since most aren't affiliated with the various organizing authorities, would that make us "illegal immigrants"?

GREAT but the biggest North American Tiger regatta in 08 was the NA's with 12 boats and 35 or so Class Members. The market is speaking pretty clearly.... OD is not winning the day in the USA.
(Source Nahca standings)

I think this fact makes Wouter's point. The One Design racing model is dying. (not that the Hobie Tiger as a boat is dying)

ISAF want's a "level" playing field for the olympics.. They are run by committee and the politics of each country wanting an advantage. What you get is a muddled mess which can't examine reality and see a proper way forward. They have ruined the Tornado Class over the years... Now they have pushed it to be the One Design Tornado Class solely for the Olympics. IMO... let ISAF continue to kill the Tornado class with love and keep it as the Olympic boat for the 50 teams that are racing world wide.. Why drive the Tiger or the F18 class in the same state?

Catamarans organizations should sell ISAF on a two tier model. The notion is that the F18 class is the perfect entry to high level training platform for ultimately stepping up to the Tornado. It's the same crew weight and skill set PLUS it's accessible to the world's sailors.

Current teams for this years Hobie Tiger North American is at 19 rsvp's so far . That event is in November.

[quote=Mark Schneider
Catamarans organizations should sell ISAF on a two tier model. The notion is that the F18 class is the perfect entry to high level training platform for ultimately stepping up to the Tornado. It's the same crew weight and skill set PLUS it's accessible to the world's sailors. [/quote]

Spot on. Perhaps also add a smaller cat such as the Hobie Dragoon (3 teir model)

For example

29er to the 49er
420 to the 470

The Tornado was not a recognised International Class when it was selected for the Olympics. It was designed for the Olympics as was the 49er. Thye both gained International status later on down the track. I beleive the RSX is likewise. It would be interesting to see how many Olympic classes were actually Internationaly recognised before selection. The Laser is one of them off course. Were any of the others????

Wasn't that the carnage 30knot year?

Yep!!! On the way to the gate in the last "windiest" race of the day. We were a lil overstood and took the chute down.

Tom

More proof required. I can't tell its you... :P

It was pretty nuts. We pulled a bunch of you guys out of the water that's for sure.

J

A lot but not us we got a 6th pl finish in that one. We were still racing when . When they told us go to the beach. Of course we had already flipped once, in 2nd, chasing a French team. On the way upwind we were debating puttin up the chute. Rounding the weather mark in 2nd, we the lead boat set their chute and the decision was made.

Congratulations, you found a limited piece of data to support the conclusion you wanted to draw...

One design is second to WHAT, exactly?

The F18 situation is the US is somewhat unique. Tiger sailors, given the chance to do a Tiger NAs or a F18 NAs seem to be going to the larger event (this has been discussed at length here).

That in NO WAY means ALL OD cat sailing is slipping to open classes. Hobie 16s and A-Cats, at a minimum, have larger NAs than any "open" class events.

Further, at points regattas, H16s, A-Cats and Tigers tend to have larger classes than any open fleets.

Mike

TA the 3rd tier idea is good, but not with a dragoon please, something with another foot of bow would be nice

The dragoon is alright boat, but its not long enough, its nigh on imposible to eficently fligh the hull downwind, as soon as its efficent to 90% of the time you end sticking the nose in! I have managed to pitch pole it up wind.

Erm, I think you will find that the A class is an "open" class; you could not call an A class a OD boat.

Did you read the thread?

Original Post. WOW... look at the F18 turnout... A Formula Class! the Sailing World should take notice with respect to Olympics.

Wouter expanded on the idea... ISAF is looking backward. It's a mistake... The F18 is not one design... it's formula and the majority of Tiger sailors have updated their boat to compete... OH... the Class rules changed yearly to keep these developments OD class legal. ISAF should drop the OD mania and pick a formulae class.

Mark,wrote.. The OD focus of F18 sailors is going...going and almost gone. . the Hobie Tiger ONE DESIGN CLASS... started with 100 boats in the US... and has declined to a dozen boats over several years despite the growth of the F18 class and the continual rule changes to keep up with F18 changes. My point is the USA F18 sailors have bought the formulae concept (like the rest of the world) ... not the frozen in time one design concept. (FYI... the A class is another Formula Class). This data makes wouter's point that the Formulae classes are replacing OD classes embeded within them. This debate is about F18's. My statement does not infer or paint with a broad brush the Hobie 16 class for instance.. (err.. what point regattas are the A class invited to?)

I disagree with Wouter that they should pick a formula class for the Olympics... I also disagree that they should pick the OD Tiger Class. It destroys a sailboat racing class. Instead I proposed a two tier path... F18 stays the way it is... (above ISAF BS politics and the pressures.) The Formula class is an entry point for new racers and a high level training platform world wide. Teams can move up to Olympic ISAF grade one events on the One Design Tornado for Olympics.

SteveM and NAcaraKid agree with my point and add a junior boat as well.

Nobody is talking about OPEN CLASS RACING IN THIS THREAD...Nobody is saying ALL OD will go the way of the dodo bird. You toss out a huge red herring.
Tiger sailors racing in the F18 class is not OD sailors slipping to the dreaded Open class.

Open class racing addresses a different problem. IMO If you are not getting 10 boats in your formulae or OD class.. Open class racing probably grows the pool of sailors in the long run. (Seems to work well where catamaran racing is far more popular but hey... why should we pay attention) But this is a different thread.

Now... the NAHCA debate of what should they do with TWO F18 class boats (Tiger and Wildcat) is a giggle and relevant to the F18 Class and possible Olympic selection. For years.. the F18 sailors have requested NAHCA drop the restriction that the OA not allow an F18 class. Now you have two Hobie F18 designs that will race each other in the rest of the world... but if the OD mania rules... not in a Hobie regatta.... It's a sad giggle what such rigidity has wrought.

Hobie has to pretend that the Tiger OD model is going great guns world wide for the Olympic ISAF pitch... Obviously the USA scene is a little out of tune with this song ... BUT... it's far better then the US Tornado racing scene. It's an ISAF battle and will be decided in the fall. (By the way... have they asked the class if the Tiger want's to become Olympic?)

I predict that once the IOC decides if sailing gets more slots and ISAF gives them to catamarans and then ISAF chooses a OD between the ... OD Tiger or OD Tornado the politics will change. If the Tiger is not picked.... the Tiger OD class will gracefully fold into the F18 world. The NA scene will have a chance to serve the sailors and not the politics/ business model of dealers.

So.... New thread if you are up for it.. ... Will the NAHCA continue to prevent their member club OA's from running F18 OD events or other formula one design events? ... (I won't even ask about serving the Hobie dead boats in an open class race)

Apologies, It's been a long week. I thought you were talking about OD in general, not just F18.

Personally, I see F18 and A-class as one-design for fleet racing. I know, that's not the correct definition, but if you're racing boat-for-boat without handicapping, that's close enough for me.

Yes, the rules of these classes evolve, but that's the price to pay if you want to race those boats. I don't think anyone goes into it not knowing that (or, they shouldn't unless they've been living under a rock). SMOD is a different animal, which I personally prefer, but everyone has a right to their choice.

BUT, that's not to say I agree that Hobie class regattas should be open to non-Hobie F18s. That has more to do with the support and purpose of the HCA and HCC.

Mike

AMEN!



I never really understood that, but it's your game so more power to you.

I am forced to giggle about all these hobie only regattas and the americans disscusing how the wildcat and tiger can race together, but thats cause im used to bigger catamaran opens where any one any boat can compete .

"I never really understood that, but it's your game so more power to you."

What's so hard to understand? This couldn't be any simpler.

For HCA, go to hca-na.org, look up the bylaws. You'll see this:

"Section 1. Purpose: The purpose of the Hobie Class Association of North America is to establish and promote Hobie Cat sailing and racing in its geographic boundaries in collaboration with the National and International sailing authorities."

There's nothing in there that says we should (one could argue, may) use our resources to promote non-Hobie classes.

Obviously, the HCC is in business to build Hobies, so there's nothing to think about there. They provide a ridiculous amount of support to the HCA, and direct support to many of our events.

EDIT: As for the Wildcat/Tiger issue, as long as the events are Hobie-only, I think we're OK (based on the above). How the boats are scored is a different question. I don't see anything in the bylaws that says we can't use handicap scoring for Hobies, or some other arrangement that makes sense. Allowing handicap scoring for Hobies is NOT the same as opening the event to any manufacturer that shows up.

Mike

This has been debated to death and I already regret creating the post. Have a good weekend.