Rules Question

In going around a mark in no wind, you notice that you are (very very slowly) drifting sideways towards it.

Is it legal to push the mark out of the way while touching the anchor line only, not the mark itself? For example, by taking your hiking stick off, and pushing gently on the line beneath the water.

It seems unsportsmanlike, but my understanding is that the line attached to the mark is not considered part of the mark.

Oh man...why do you have to go there? I can't imagine that's within the "spirit" of the rules but I'm not sure about the legality. However, I can't imagine there is much tension on the anchor rode to the mark or that it's not just hanging below the mark in your scenario. Could you actually push on it without touching the mark? I doubt it.

Propulsion. You're right out.

If you get in a situation where you KNOW you are going to foul the mark, it is better just to slide around it and get clear and do a penalty turn out of everyone's way.

We have all seen (and been) boats that make erratic or drastic moves to "save it" after the question has become conclusive.

At that point you have no rights and may stack up a bunch of secondary fouls...and it just gets worse from there.

There's also the rule that if, as a result of breaking a rule, you help yourself to a high enough degree, the penalty turns aren't enough, and you are expected to retire.

I don't have time to look up the RRS number and exact verbiage, hopefully someone else here does...

Mike

Propulsion seems like a cop-out. Yes there would have been a little bit of counter-reaction, but only the slightest little bit and that in a direction exactly away from the mark.

For the record, I didn't do this, although I was sorely tempted . Doing a 360 in a dead calm is not fun.

Edit: I guess I should come clean. What I did do is blow on the mark. I think it nearly worked, but I did end up hitting the mark right near the transom. Several other boats saw me, and just laughed.

You have to realize that we were all just sitting there, just spitting into the water every now and then to try and see which way we were drifting.

Since you are in dead calm, I would think it reasonable to do your turn when the wind fills in.

Not a cop-out at all - you simply aren't allowed to use propulsion to get yourself around the course. I'm not suggesting one would gain forward motion by pushing on the anchor rode, but it would move the mark. In moving the mark, the skipper isn't using the sails as the sole propulsion. No different than ooching. By moving the mark, you have effectively changed the layline that you would have needed to have properly rounded.

Touching any part of a mark including its anchor line with any part of your boat is a penalty.

The wind never did fill in. It usually doesn't at this lake once the morning breeze departs.

hahahah....you blew the mark. That's hilarious...but I've done the same act - I didn't really plan on getting out of it and the action was more about entertaining the mark boat after I knew I was going to hit the mark anyway.

but seriously - I think John's right, you are pushing yourself off for the benefit of your boat around the course. It could well apply.

Nope. Per RRS Definition:

"An anchor line or an object attached temporarily or accidentally to a mark is not part of it"

I tried to write a response to this and.....why am I bothering?

OK, here it is, 44.1(b):
"if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire."

So, if you push yourself around the mark, and as a result beat three boats around the mark; rather than pushing yourself behind the mark, which would cause you to be behind those three boats, you're gaining a significant advantage (depends somewhat on the size of the fleet).

Propulsion may be a stretch, but 44.1(b) is not. Fair sailing rules may also be applied.

As for why we're having the discussion, if it's a drifter, the race may be abandoned, but doesn't have to be (think distance race), so this could very well be a real issue at some time in your sailing career.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Man, you guys do not think outside the box.

In this situation, your CREW is going to have to -accidently- fall overboard, and while underwater, grab the mark by the anchorline, and move the friggn' thing, then add an extra Kick when getting back on board over the transom. The extra kick may even help get the boat around.

No harm, no foul and the boat, nor crew, ever touched the mark.

Now, the real question is, why the heck were you out in the boat in no wind in the first place?? Go to the beach and drink heavily.

Look away while your crew clears the anchor line: Plausible deniability!



(Been watching too much 24 )

Can't get the crew to do it. In really light air races, my crew jumps off the boat right after we clear the start line, and then swims back across the line and bobs there in the water waiting for me to pick him up right before the finish.

You gotta finish with the crew you start with, but nothing says you gotta drag them around the entire race course!

Sorry, RRS 47.2 does say exactly that:


Regards,
Eric

I believe that moving the mark this way would be a breach of RRS 2 "Fair Sailing". The "extra kick" is clearly a violation of RRS 42.1 "Propulsion - Basic Rule".

Regards,
Eric

i think that you will find that that is NOT the case.

You can snagg your daggerboard or rudder on the rope and tow the bloody thing halfway to the windward mark as long as the bouy itself does not touch you.

don't ask me.....

Propulsion (RRS 42) is an interesting argument, but I don't really think it would apply in this case. The rule prohibits moving "a boat", not another object (e.g. mark). The ISAF interpretations state that any action that moves the boat in any direction with the force of one stroke of a paddle consitutes propulsion. pushing a small mark by its anchor line probably has much less force on a boat than one stroke of a paddle. A force that great would most likely cause the mark to touch whatever the crew member is pushing with.

I think RRS 2 "Fair Sailing" is a better argument, although it is still a gray area. It states

While some may believe that pushing the anchor line (thus moving the mark) is unsportsmanlike, I'm not sure that it "clearly violates" the principle of fair play.

I suspect that there would be a lot of variation on this call from protest committee to protest committee.

Regards,
Eric

It may be reasonable, but might not be legal. RRS 42.2 "One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalities" states (emphasis mine):

I once asked an international judge to clarify "promptly" for me, and he said to substitute the words "without delay".

Now, if the boat is truly becalmed such that it is not possible to get "well clear", then it's okay to wait. She must, however, take her penality as soon as possible when the wind allows.

Regards,
Eric

Also in this scenario, when the penalty happens at a windward mark, it is to your advantage to continue sailing close hauled (or reaching slightly) for a short distance to get away from where the boats are turning and then do your tack and gybe. The penalty turn consists of a tack and a gybe - not 360 degrees. So since you need to turn downwind anyway, you can actually get away with a 270 if your foul occurred at the top of the course.

Inadvertently snagging an anchor line and dragging a mark is a far cry from swimming underwater and deliberately moving it away from your boat to avoid contact. The first is accidental and cannot reasonably help you. The second seems (at least to me) to be an advantage gained unfairly.

Regards,
Eric

Rats! I knew there had to be a catch on that one.

Absolutely correct (and very good advice)! The faster you can pull off your turn(s), the better.

Continuing to sail upwind (or reaching) to get clear satisfies the "getting well clear...as soon as possible" part of RRS 44.2. Tacking and gybing in the same direction promptly satisfies turn portion. Nothing says the turn has to be a full 360 degrees (in fact, it may be less than 270 degrees). For what it's worth, that was true even when the rules were titled "360/720 Degree Penalty". Confusion over this issue is why the rules were renamed to "One/Two-Turns Penalty".

Regards,
Eric

So, in this same scenario, I can point the boat at the finish line, say "Tacking!" and push the main from port to starboard and then "Jibe Ho!" and push the main from starboard to port, and be exonerated? All while the nose is still pointed directly at the finish line?

Remember, there's no wind. I mean really no wind. How do you tell a tack from a jibe when there's no wind?

A tack and gybe involves your bows moving around as well, not just your sails.

IMO it seems like you are trying to find loop holes and cheat, not cool and if you are ever taken to the room you will lose, bad.

EDIT: I deleted my post questioning the validity of a normal tack counting as part of a penalty.

This is covered by Case 108 (ISAF website). It starts with 44.1(b) as I mentioned above (if you gained an advantage by breaking a rule, in this case touching the mark, you must retire). Also, as stated by others above, a tack at the weather mark may be counted as one of the two-turns.

Personally, I don't see how this can be construed as a "penalty" but that's not what the rule gods have come up with.

Mike

Thanks for assuming the worst, Robi.

I'd be very surprised if anyone in the same sucky situation didn't think about "loopholes" to get out of it. Not because you want to do better in the race, but because you don't want to sit out there bobbing in the hot sun for an extra 15 minutes while you do an agonizingly slow circle.

I guess the real sportsmen all give up wind the wind dies, so they never have to deal with these sorts of situations.

Read over the SI's. There's probably a minimum wind requirement for racing.

Rhino did this happen at Black Butte?

Yeah. We did get good wind for three of five races this year though, and only the last one was an absolute creeper. The earlier date probably helped.