Tacking and right of way

Hi,

On the last regatta I oversailed the upwind mark because I wasn't sure if I could tack or not. I've checked the rules on this particular situation but it still isn't clear to me.... Anyone can help?

Here's the situation:

We were sailing upwind on port tack with an F18 behind us (about 5 boatlengths). The F18 was also sailing about 1 boatlength higher. We were both double trapping.

At a certain moment we had the feeling we had to tack if we didn't want to oversail the mark, but the F18 kept on sailing and we didn't dare to tack. Eventually when the F18 and we tacked we had oversailed the mark.

Now, could we tack if we:
1) just announced the tack
2) announced the tack and made sure we were on the other tack by the time the F18 was there.
Is it enough that the sails are on the other tack or should we be going forward already?
3)announced the tack but were still tacking by the time the F18 was there?

I'm pretty sure 3 isn't an option, but what about the 2 others?

Regards,
Gill

As long as you could complete your tack; you can tack.

Wilder! I'm sure you meant that he could tack as long as he didn't break RRS 15: When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

Go for your layline and sail your proper course. It is good to announce your tack - they're expecting you to do it. They will take all the room you give them, but they almost certainly recognize it as a gift.

Yeah of course that would be obvious, you never want to tack and put yourself into a situation where a collision is eminent. In his initial post he says 5 boat lengths, imo that is plenty of room.

Double trapped? I'm not sure he felt there was enough room and he overstood because he wasn't sure of the rules. Don't let yourself be a marshmallow for someone who knows the rules better than you. That F18 probably beat him to the mark.

John,

In my option I would have been right in front of the F18 after the tack (meaning he would have to tack too or go behind my back -> 1 full boatlength, which seemed difficult to me).
So IMO the F18 would not have had room enough to keep clear. Meaning I couldn't tack.

However I think you're saying the opposite John.

btw we got to the top mark in front of them ;-)

Gill

If as per above you can tack and the other boat(s) have time and room as per above then you can do it.

YOu can aslo make it clear you are going to tack; as they are close, you can also pinch for a few seconds and they will then get the picture too.

With F16's they tack so quickly, you should be aiming for 10 seconds or below for wire to wire, so unless they are real close, it should not be a problem.

Can someone figure out how many seconds it would take the F18 to cover five boat lengths, if they are going, say, 15 mph?

15 knots = 25 feet per second. Five boatlengths = 90 feet.

About four seconds.

HOWEVER - I'd bet that F18 was anticipating the tack. They had no rights as the clear-astern boat on port. A hail from the F16 gives the F18 plenty of opportunity to keep clear as the F16 sails her proper course by tacking for the mark. The fact that the F16 made it to the mark first indicates to me that all is right with the universe - good job, Gill.

I came up with 4 seconds, too. So in that 4 seconds the F16 is only going to be halfway through its tack. If I were on the smaller, more fragile boat, I don't know if I would have the courage to "bet" that:

No. 1, the F18 knows the rules
No. 2, that the F18 is anticipating that you are going to tack.
No. 3, the F18 has the time, room or crew reactions to make and execute the decision to avoid me (and how) in that period of time.

I wouldn't put my boat, and maybe my life, on the line based on assumptions.

Didn't this situation used to be called tacking too close?

Also, what if the boat behind and to windward was a Hobie 16 instead of an F18? The Hobie 16 would not even be thinking about tacking yet because he has not yet reached his layline. It might not occur to him that the F16 needs to tack.

I know, I know -- I am probably overthinking this.

Tactically, you should have thought it out quite a bit sooner. Two things you could have done.
1) Pinched up a bit way before the layline. This would backwind the boat on your hip and they would have fallen lower. Then you would have been free to tack on your own layline call.
2) Drive off until you have enough room to make the tack to starboard without the possibility of them calling you for tacking too close.
Rick

Let's call your boat A (ahead), and the other boat B (behind) and analyze the situation in steps (which is how I like to walk through the rules during a protest hearing).

Step 1:
A is clear ahead and to leeward of B. B is obligated to keep clear of A under RRS 12 (on the same tack, not overlapped).

Step 2: A tacks. From the moment A passes head-to-wind, until she is on a close-hauled course, A is obligated to keep clear of B under RRS 13 (while tacking).

Step 3: A completes her tack. A is now on starbaord tack and B on port tack. B is obligated to keep clear of A under RRS 10 (on opposite tacks). A is obligated to initially give B room to keep clear under RRS 15 (acquiring right-of-way).

At all times, both A and B are required to avoid contact under RRS 14 (avoiding contact).

Now, if B has to take avoiding action during step 2, then A breaks rule 13. If B does not have enough time keep clear in a seamanlike way after A completes her tack (e.g., she crash-tacks or makes contact), then A breaks rule 15.

Note that B does not have to anticipate A's actions at any time. A may hail that she's tacking, but it's her actions that count. After A completes her tack, she must give B enough time to assess the situation, choose a course of action, and execute it in a seamanlike way.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but this is one of those situations where the give-way boat contols the right-of-way boat's action. Given the situation you were in, you did the right thing under the rules and let the F18 drive you past the layline.

As Rick pointed out, this is a tactical situation you want to anticipate and avoid. Some of the options you could have employed earlier are:
1) pinch up in front of the astern boat, so you are able to tack when you want,
2) foot away, so there is enough space between boats for the other to keep clear after you tack,
3) come in to the mark on the port-tack layline and scrape the astern boat off around the mark.

Of course, there are potential difficulties with each option. If you pinch up, the astern boat is likely to pinch up as well. If you foot off, the astern boat may foot too. If you approach the windward mark on the port layline, you may run afoul of other boats rounding the mark.

Regards,
Eric

John,

Proper course plays NO part in this situation.

F16 needs to COMPLETE the tack before the F18 needs to take avoiding action in order to "tack at will".

As stated by others, best bet is to either pinch up to drive the other boat away - it will not take much to force them away, or drive them low (by backwind of YOUR sail) more to make the "tack and gain rights" a sure thing; OR drive a little to leeward by footing a little to create more time to make sure the tack is complete and so rights are gained with time to FORCE the F18 to duck or tack.

It is best to anticipate this happening and try and make the other boat tack away before YOU want to tack.

Got myself in this fix a few times;

Also got the knack of sitting up in the trapeze, both hands on hips [Jam the tiller with your back foot] and glare at the trailing skipper until he really gets the message that you don't want him pushing you about!

Hi Simon -

Agree that the proper course rule doesn't apply - only meant to imply that the F18 should be expecting the F16 to tack, as her course is to the mark. I would hate to be the F18 in that situation, actually, knowing that in the breeze the F16 can probably sail a higher line and I'd need to get past their layline to get to my own, depending upon the distance to the mark. I'm not a short-tacker.

Hmm... wisecracks, anyone?

Funny, I was in the exact opposite situation last Wednesday: A 29er was in front of me, I was a couple of boat length behind and to windward. But my layline is further than their layline as a 29er points better than my Stealth.

I saw the skipper looking at me, looking at the mark, finally realizing he was screwed and that he would have to go further, to my layline.

I took pity of him, shouted "You tack, I'll avoid you". He said thank you then tacked, I ducked his stern, tacked 10 boat length further and beat them to the mark. It is a far better way of proceeding IMHO.

BTW, they used their huge masthead spi to pass me again on the way to the side mark, but on the hotter reach to the finish line I regained on them, cut their wind and beat them by a mere second. I'm nice, but not that nice.

I don't get it. ???

no, no , no. Once you start tacking you must keep clear and give other boats room to keep clear. You have started tacking once you go past head to wind. In this situation the F18 only has to "start" taking avoiding action once the F16 tack is complete, which is when the boat is pointing in the direction of a close-hauled course on the new tack. 1 boat length to windward and 5 astern isn't enough room in my opinion to complete a tack without the F18 having to start avoiding before you have completed the tack.

In this situation, the best thing to do tactically is to pinch early and climb above the F18 to make room for yourself to tack. Hopefully the F18 doesn't follow you up maintaining their tactical hold over you.

Rules wise though, if you don't want to continue too far past the layline, you are allowed to luff, due to proper course limitations, but tacking in this situation is asking for trouble.

I hope you mean 49er!!!

Forgot that other option, if the F18 calls "you tack" or similar in this situation, they have accepted responsibility to avoid you.

No. I meant 29er. We were sailing one of those drifter race, max wind speed was maybe 5knt, top. A 29er with two kids weighting less than me put together is as fast as me and my stealth in those conditions: they were single trapping downwind while I was unable to get a hull out of the water on any point of sail. The two 49er were far far ahead, they did an horizon job on the rest of the fleet.

WRONG; this is ONLY the case when tacking to avoid an obstruction and you call for "room to tack to avoid an obstruction". They then have the option of tacking at once to make room for you; or telling you to tack and they the avoid you.

I'm with Mary on this, this is tacking too close. If you're only halfway through your tack, even if the other boat is clear behind when you started tacking, they have to maneuver to avoid and you've fouled them.

The other very useful maneuver is to really pinch high as soon as you're close to the mark. You can use it as a "pick" and tack when you get to the other side. You're basically tacking around the mark. It's unlikely that the other boat would chase you, they would just sail their normal course and tack when they hit the layline.

Mike

The best thing to do obviously is to avoid it.
What works best IMHO is to just ask them directly by waving or do "the stare".

Rofl. Let me rephrase my story then:



Anyway, I find the f18 crews generally more aggressive. In my experience there are more skippers there willing to push the rules a little bit to gain any advantage, especially if it is just fouling an irrelevant boat from some other class they are not directly competing against. To make matter worse, due to their minimum weight, those boats are overbuild and build like tanks. A side sweep by one of those is going to cut any F16 in two. I would not take the risk.

Dude, seriously NOT cool! To imply that F18 sailors are more agressive and rule benders and hunting F16's simply because we sail an F18 is total rubbish! I think you'll find all classes large and small will have aggressive rule benders and it's not unique the F18 sailors. As for hunting F16's... don't you need a permit for that?

Also fouling someone and not doing a turn (I'm assuming that's your implication) is a douche move in any class and not unique to the F18 class. Now if you're saying that an F18 exercised their rights for no tactical advantage again a bit of douche move but again not unique to the F18 class.

We get it and we get it and we get it! Our boats are heavy! Do you seriously think that F18 sailors are thinking that because our boats are over built we will win a contest of contact... come on now... seriously!?

We really aren't out to get you... really... well, maybe.

Well good to hear that I did the right thing in the situation. Still have to learn quite a lot about tactics...

I'll also practice 'the stare' :-)

Concerning aggresive F18 crews, I have the experience that more of them are used to sailing regattas and therefore sail more on the edge during regattas. But always within the fairplay of the game.

We're of to Eurocat at Carnac Wednesday, I hope I'm not confronted with the discussed situation to much!

Gill

LMAO.

Okay. Let me clarify that. You are a US sailor. Your national association boast 20 members. Let me put that in perspective: Carnac next week is going to have around 400 cats on the water. Two third of those F18. My old sailing club, near Toulon has 36 F18 on the parking. Most of them sailed weekly during the summer. No other class is coming close in terms of numbers, the F18 is the king of the cat. F18 class is the class where the top cat sailors are. All the big names in cat sailing are racing F18, Ellen McArthur, Laurent Bourgnon, Franck Cammas and more.

The sailors are nice generally. I have good friends who are F18 sailors. I'd probably be a F18 sailor if I could find a regular crew/helm. But the on water competition is fierce.

In order to be competitive they have to know the rules. So they carry protest forms in their sailbag, store their rulebooks under their pillow and play subliminal tapes of rule interpretations while they sleep.

The screaming and shouting at the marks is legendary. Grafham last year was my first race sharing a course with F18 and I was shocked by the agressivity around the mark. This was repeated three weeks ago at the open they did at my club, we shared the water with them again. The level of testosterone was high. The race committee had to start them under black flag 4 times out of 6 because of general recalls. We never had anybody over the line in our fleet.

So when you are not used to this level of competition you know you have to be careful. They will not be lenient with you. They will never wave you across. They are sailing on the edge, for a win.

I'm not saying that they are there to get me. It's just that they are there to WIN. I'm not *that* competitive, and I'd rather avoid problems. So I douse my spi earlier so I can maneuver when one of those guys cut me off around the mark. I look around me and try to keep away from them.

So in that particular situation Gilo was in the F18 would expect him to know the rules, because he is always sailing with people who know the rules. As such he is not expecting him to tack in front of him. If you do, you will surprise him and that's dangerous. End of the story.

It's not just the F18. Dart 18 are a competitive bunch as well. Other cat fleets are generally not that aggressive. Spitfires, F16, Hurricane or Shearwater are a quieter bunch, there for a day on the water, not to pick a fight to WIN!

Don't get me wrong either. I enjoyed those races. There is bad apples in every bunch (like the bastard who ramed Mark P last year and then protested him. Nice going) but overall it raised my game. I loved it.

We're on the same page now.

I also agree that the smaller group the more passive the crowd can be (not always though). You say the Spitfires, F16, Hurricane or Shearwater crowd is quieter group, is that because of the boat they are on or their numbers? The simple fact of the matter is we are always trying to grow our respective fleets and with numbers comes greater competition and aggression. That is simply the trade off and I think this is what Hobie Alter meant by the racers ruining it. I guess what is one man's ruin is anothers paradise. I say bring on the numbers.

WOW!!! 400 boats on the water!!! Economy aside, what in the unholy FFFF are we doing wrong over here?????

Mike

This is America, to get those kinds of numbers we would have to hang 200 h.p. OBs off the back.

Alternately, how many NASCAR events in EU?

they don't have NASCAR, they have FORMULA racing...the Indy of the US... Indy car racing used to be bigger than NASCAR, but it isn't now....


Mike

Lots!

Why do we want big fleets to race in.... Because the competition around the race course is full on and constant... if you blink... you get passed by a lot of boats = great fun or a great horror! You are always racing someone on these courses. You have to pass boats and you have to round marks with lots of boats... You fit into the group that goes racing... The party is great... but not the reason you come back year after year. The experience of blink and you loose and the challenge of sailing against all those people is key.

What do we do in the USA... engage in fantasy and nostalgia.

We believe that a 4 boat one design fleet will grow to 10 boats and then 20 boats because all people are focused on one design racing and every weekend regatta should be run like the nationals identifying the top one design racer. The guy who wins every race gets bored and moves on. The guy who finishes last in every race gets bored and moves on. Racing in a small fleet can get pretty dull. BUT we know the past ... We believe that if ONLY we could go back to the hobie way of life of yore where the parties were legendary... That casual racers will come out in droves and join the hard core racers (See Hobie Alter Interview of not letting the racers ruin things). So... we continue running the same game plan year after year.

In the EU.... they don't break up 60 boats into 12 classes on their average weekend of racing. They understand that good sailors need to race other good sailors... no matter what boat they are on. The competition will keep those guys interested. Competition at the bottom will be equally as keen. It becomes personal if X beats you again this weekend.

Fact. Lots of new sailors get old race boats and come give it a try... they are parsed into a small open fleet or a small B fleet .. They don't have a good enough time to get into the sport of racing and never come back.

So… we need to ask… What is missing?
What is the fundamental joy in racing sailboats… IMO.. its passing another boat. We need to recreate this today. ITS MISSING all too often.
Second… make sure everyone feels welcome in the group,
Third, a great party usually follows the first two and great food and booze certainly help… but a party alone won’t get you to return the next year if the first two are missing…. Take a look at spring fever… best deal and party that I know of… but about 30 % of the sailors do not bother to return to the event within three years of going. Ouch! IMO… they say… great party, great regatta… Nah… not worth going back next year. Been there… done that.
Finally… Oh yeah… the scores and trophies, camping, giveaways etc..

Identify what’s missing and we will do better.
Your mileage may vary!

I have never found that to be the case when sharing the racecourse with F18s. The F18 skippers I've met all know that getting tied up with other boats (especially ones in other classes) only slows you down. For example, at CatFest some years back, I was sailing hot downwind on starboard tack in good breeze on a converging course with an F18 under spin on port. Had we actually met, he could have tried to cross (and risk a foul), or he could have rounded up to sail above me (risking a capsize in a gust). Instead, he gybed early, put some distance between us, and gybed back again (crossing easily). I think that was a smart and courteous move. He kept a good lookout, knew the rules, foresaw a problem situation, and acted early to avoid it at minimum cost with no fuss.

I do know some sailors who regard other fleet boats as interlopers on their racecourse, but I certainly don't feel that way about the F18 racers. In fact, I once suggested to the best cat sailor I know that we should campaign an F18 together.

Regards,
Eric

And, there's nothing wrong with politely asking "will you let me tack?". In many such situtations, staying together is actually disavantageous for both boats - especially if they are in different classes. I know I'd rather have a boat that outpoints me off of my lee-bow and would probably wave her across.

Here is a (slighly different, but still illustrative) case in point. At Spring Fever a few years back, I was sailing downwind on starboard tack behind and to leeward of a Hobie 16. I wanted to sail farther before gybing, but would either have to sail through his shadow or fight to roll him. I could tell by the way he kept looking back that he wanted to gybe. So I called out "do you want to gybe?". He said yes and I told him to go ahead. He gybed; I sailed past his stern - we both came out ahead. Encounters on the water don't always have to be hostile.

Regards,
Eric

true...but if you ask for it, you may receive.

It is different over here. The F18 fleet comes to the "open opens" over here and these events are usually F18 worlds qual events for us; thus the Ccompetition is high and there are big things at stake. Also, because the fleet is big and well stocked with talent, no-one usually gets clear and can ease off. How many times do you get a good lead and can then ease off a bit? I've done it and it's the "safe" thing to do; but when you are sailing around with 8 oir 10 otgher boats who are all going the same speed, inches matter and so people do not ease off as thet never get clear away!!!

in the few years of catsailing i have been doing, nothing compares to the aggressiveness of monoslug sailors as far as rules go. Was racing the flying scot this weekend, rouned A in 2nd place as the wind was dying. the boat behind caught a small puff and came down and below us, came up about 4 bootlenghts to start drifting just us and tap us. That is headhunting, legal but bull **** was to act.
At least here in the US I do not see that out of catsailors in the level I sail in.

My personal goal on the race course is to avoid situations like that if at all possible. Being able to sail your own race is always faster if not always possible. As Rick pointed out, if there was a good distance to the leg going into the mark, then working the whole leg to either pinch up high enough to be clear of foot to be clear earlier so the issue of rights around a mark are not inquestion.

Next option is to ask if you can go. Sometimes they will oblige, but ususally there is just a stare at least untill they are clear to tack themselves. Here it pays to know your competition.

If the situation is close enough to be of any question then your only real option is to wait it out, run a better tack and drive over them as it sound like you did. The other other options are all potentail bad outcomes.

If they are not skilled in boat handling or your tack is not as fast as you planned a collision is very likely.

If they happen to be one of the few who try and use rules to win, even if you were in the right, you will likely be in the protest room trying to prove it. Not a good way to spend the evening.

More Haters Dave,
just give up, get an A cat and let Kathy sip fruity drinks on the beach!

Okay Mark, make your vision of the ideal regatta a reality. Clearly the rest of us are getting it wrong and nothing convinces more than success. Oh, and dude Spring Fever kicks a$$, on the water off the water and on the 8 hour trip home!

I do find it interesting that the class you're in (the A class) is probably one the most isolationist fleets out there. Seems like every time I turn around they are having an 'A' cat only event. I'm not knocking it they are clearly getting something right. According to your vision though the 'A' cat fleet is doing it ALL wrong, yet...

I'm still trying to figure out how every other thread around here gets morphed into a "Whats wrong with catsailing in the US?" thread and therefore a soapbox from which Mark can go ahead and show us just how many keyboards he goes through in a year.

That was my fault, should have seen it coming. Sorry about opening that door. (That's not to say it wouldn't have happened anyway).

Mike

Sounds like a good time to use Team Roanoke's Foghorn Leghorn thing also.

"I say, I say there!", "Pay attention, boy!"