Chesapeake Bay Cat Sailing Options

I unintentionally caused an off-topic diversion in a thread about the Hobie Fox, which led to a very useful exchange with Mark Schneider about why the Nacra 20 is popular in the Chesapeake Bay, apparently due to its tall mast and big sail area, which is good for the lighter winds on the Bay.

So as not to disrupt the above thread any further, I thought I should start a separate thread about the various options for sailing beach cats in the Chesapeake Bay area.

Here are some excerpts to get the discussion started...

Mark: I had a great time at the WRSC Spring Regatta last weekend. Volunteering on the RC was an excellent first-time experience and I was quite impressed by the A-cats, Nacra 20s, and 505 skiffs.

Although I loved WRSC and am tempted to join, being apparently restricted to two very high-tech catamaran classes (A-cat and Nacra 20) would be somewhat of a bummer. So I definitely need to investigate the open-class and Hobie events in the area before making any decisions.

I won't be able to make it to Gunpowder for a full day or overnight. But I may be able to come up for a few hours to check out the setup and say hello. What do you think would be the best day (Sat or Sun) and time (morning, afternoon) to see some racing and meet some Hobie sailors?

Thanks for any additional insight!

Saturday afternoon.... It's a hobie regatta... early starts violates the constitution! not to mention Hobie Fleet 54 has a great **** party on saturday at 5.... you control the rum or tequilla.

Thanks, Mark. Will try to come check it out.

And sorry I missed you at the Spring Regatta. After 5 hours on the RC boat focusing on sail numbers for 4 classes x 5 races (4 for the Contenders), I didn't have the energy to stick around very late on land. But checking the results, sure enough, you are there in 9th place in what seemed like a very competitive A-cat fleet. I mean, Tony Arends was there...

Where there no F16's at WRSC ?

Or where the guys down in Florida for the GYC event ?

I seem to remember the F16's growing as a class on the chesapeake. Slowly but surely. The F16 would surely be a good third option between F18, I-20 and A-cat. They seem to be doing very well among these in the WRCRA race series.

http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#SpringSummer
http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#SummerFall
http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#FrostBite


Interestingly enough it proofs that mast and hull length is less of a factor some make out to be ! It is the smallest boat in the series I-20, F18, A-cat but races them as good as first in anyway !


Wouter

Afircat,

Thanks for doing RC Duty. That is very kind of you. Saturday was without a doubt the nicest day of sailing I have seen on the Bay in my 9 years of racing here. A steadily building breeze with the occasional increases in pressure combined with very little wave action. Perfect! Three of us N20s were having very close racing with passing taking place upwind, downwind, at marks, and at the finish. Not passes that are 10 boats lengths apart, I mean passes within a boat length or less. Thanks again for doing RC!

I may be a little biased with the following:

Why is the N20 popular on the bay? It is a good light air boat. It’s a good heavy air boat. It is fairly easy to depower. It is relatively easy to sail fast; and yet to find speed advantage over others is still an interesting challenge. It does buoy racing really well. It can vie for line honors with the big negative PHRF monos in a 30 miles distance race even giving them a 10 minutes head start and the race is only 2.5 hours or so long. It can sail upwind with a 66’ “Upwind Sled”. The use of the words “sail” and “with” in the last sentence was used to be polite. (The words “spank” or “crush” could be substituted for a more accurate description however regrettable less “PC”).

This might be the biggest reason: It can handle a large range of crew weights well. If you look at our Fleet, we range in weight from 180 to say 250’ish (5’9” to 6’2”). That puts total crew weight in the 370 to 435 range. We are not fat people, just bigger than the cat sailors in other fleets. Before I digress too far with this, did I mention the N20s bows?

Upon my first glace at the N20 my attention was drawn to the plumb bow and the height and shape of the bow and the combined shear of the hull. Having started racing in a Thistle, I really like the plumb bow (***). Having owned and raced a H16 then a Nacra 6.0 the shape of the bow was frankly not attractive. After being out in some sizable waves it will probably grow on you like it did me. I can’t even walk by the bows without giving them a little shall we say pat-on-the-head and a “thank you, thank you, your unbelievable” being uttered.

Something important to me and maybe to you is it will handle 6 or so kids with four hanging from the traps and towing two more in an inflatable.

To borrow from Keith, your mileage may vary.

(***) Plumb bow will eat butt of A-cat without taking a scratch.

You talk to your boat too? I do the same. Kinda like days of thunder when Robert Duvall is talking to the car in the barn.

Africat,
I solved your dilemma by getting both an A-cat and an N-20. I'm new to the A, but have put thousands of miles on my 20 and love it. It is a true workhorse/race car in the cat world. Lot's of folks will tell you it's a dead or dying boat, but at most regattas I've been to ,they are bringing the same numbers or more than other classes except A-cats( when they want to show).
Thanks for helping out at WRSC, you let us have a really great weekend. Good luck with your decision. The Senegal part throws in an interesting wrinkle,as there will be different popular boats there versus here.
Todd Hart

Last weekend's event was for one design fleets (no open class) and the F-16s do not have the numbers in the area (yet) for fleet status. 3 more active F16s are needed to legitatemently claim fleet status. As of next week, there will be 5 active F-16s at WRSC.

The WRCRA race series is open to all beach cats and the competition is good amoung the currently active sailors/classes (A-Cat/F-16/N20 - throw in a Nacra 6.0NA and ARC-22).

Now I know why you refer to your class as NASCAT (LOL).

Wouter

The Hobie fleet 54 Gunpowder Regatta is this coming weekend about an hour up the bay and the F16's are planning on racing in Open class there.... They just don't like to call their shot and PR it much!

rubbin' racing baby! If you look closely at the Hallie Q you'll find some Gertie green from last year.

To quote a 505 skipper from Saturdays racing: "I can't believe how much power you were displaying" Context: 505 coming upwind on port, two N20 going downwind on port double trapped within a boat length of each other, one defending the other attacking. We both ducked him and it was close. He was cool with our duck just amazed with what was coming at him. I asked him to use his gym voice next time. All I heard was more noise coming from the N20 ahead and to leeward of us, and then my crew "bare off now"! Good Crew! There are several reason NASCAT fits us.;) Hopefully you guys will be in on it next time!

Mark: I'm not going to make it to Gunpowder. Too much family stuff going on right now and not quite ready to camp with the 6 month old.

Chris: The pleasure was mine. I'll be getting in touch to see if anybody can use me as backup crew for Tuesday evenings. Love your comment about six kids on the Nacra 20! Certainly cooler than 6 kids on a Hobie Getaway.

Todd: It's not impossible that I'll go the two-cat route in the long run. But for now, until the move to Senegal and probably until we get back Stateside again, the reasonable solution is probably going to be "no boat" and try to crew a bunch.

Thanks everybody for the excellent discussion!

High tech or not is I suppose a personal choice, but I think the idea that because a boat is more modern that it is more difficult to sail or maintain is not necessarily true.

As already mentioned, the more powerful and modern rigs just give you more options to sail on days when a H16/18 would be almost as boring has sailing with one hull.

Just do it (A, N20 or F16 are really the tickets right now). How about a partnership with someone who isn't getting their boat on the water enough???

Herbie: First, thanks again for connecting me with Peter for RC duty. I've never worked so hard on the water without actually handling any sails. What a blast!

I have nothing against high tech. Quite the opposite! I'm a total gearhead and love anything that uses technology to increase the fun and performance factor. The only Hobie I'm looking at right now is an FX-one, which is kind of like a big A-cat that you can also sail two-up. But I understand I wouldn't be allowed to keep an non-fleet cat at WRSC, right?

Realistically speaking, as I've mentioned above, I shouldn't buy a boat of my own right now and try to ship it across the Atlantic (and back again in 3 years). That would really be too involved. Instead, I need to hook up with boat owners in need of crew. As Chris was leaving last Saturday, he introduced me to another Nacra sailor, who suggested I get on their crew e-mail list. Is there a Nacra-specific distribution list? If so, how can I get on there to see if anybody can use last-minute crew for Tuesday evening cat sailing?

Looking at the rules for joining WRSC, to become a full-fledged member you have to own, outright or as a share, one of the OD fleets that are part of the club. Do I understand that correctly? But during one of the rare breaks on the RC boat, Peter mentioned that there were other options for boat-less membership. So I'll have to investigate that as well.

Finally, do you have somebody in mind when you suggest a "partnership with someone who isn't getting their boat on the water enough?" Buying a share in a boat may be a bit much right now. But it would probably still be a lot more reasonable than buying a whole boat and shipping that overseas.

Sail fast!

-Roland E.

Herbie53

Remember Hi-Tech just means the parts are more expensive and need to be replaced more often to preserve peak performance!!!! Do you know how long the top Tornado sailors use a set of sails for??? A spinnacker is used for (1)Regatta only then replaced.

Roland has a much more complex decision to make then just buying the highest tech boat availible ... he has a famiy to include in his decision.

Roland, when you get a chance come to RockHall Yacht Club (www.rockhallyachtclub) in Rock Hall Md. On June 19,20 &21st we have two different races: Down the River and The Annual One-Design Regatta (2-day). Camping on site, Clubhouse w/ resturant, bar, POOL!!! and most of the WRSC A-Catter's bring their families and attend.

So while I would love a A-Cat I would never try to do the C-100, Down the Bay, Worell, Tybe ... etc, etc, on a A-Cat

BUT I would take my ol' TheMightyHobie18 and start and COMPLETE any of those races ... if fact between my TheMightyHobie18 and P19 I've done the DTB and C100, +15 races ... should we add in the Statue of Liberty races also ???

And the more technical the boat ... the more experienced the crew must be .... Hows that work when you are trying to sail w/ your kids and start them sailing?????

I started sailing/racing w/ my niece when she was 9yrs old on my P19MX and realized it was too much boat for us to controll .... so we re-assembled my TheMightyHobie18 and have been racing her together for the last 4yrs. And I given Megan the "tiller" also during races ..... would you give a 14yr old the tiller to a +20,000 boat??? during a race????

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/P19MX

Harry,
You left out the really fun stuff,like having to hook a tractor to your lo-tech boat to move it. Also you left out the part about what the sterns of the Hi-tech boats look like. I'll spend a little more effort and cash to go alot faster. And YES I would give the helm of my $20,000 dollar boat to a 14 year old if they were experienced enough to handle it. The Hi-tech boats are actually more forgiving than older dacron powered heavyweights.
Kinda sounds like sour grapes on your part.
Todd

Todd,

Sour Grapes????

We've known each other for +20yrs .... Did I say anything not true????

Robbie replaces his spinnacker after every two day regatta and so does Lovell and Olgeltree so I've been told

Has an A-Cat ever completed a Down the Bay, C100, or Statue of Liberty Race????

How much experience on catmarans did you have before you purchased a 20' speed machine??? I remember a P16 and a P19, with years of racing ... and weren't there some additional cats in there.

Maybe Roland wants a hi-tech boat but shouldn't he learn first the unique lessons of sailing catamarans on a forgiving "tanker" before investing $$$'s in an unforgiving speed machine that requires the replacement of sails and parts more often to stay competitive. Just like you did???

What's starting to annoy me is the attitude that if you are not sailing a $20,000 catamaran you are not worthy .... Last year I was severely cut-off on a leeward/windward crossing stuation when I was the right of way vessel ... but since I was a lowly TheMightyHobie18 and not the A-Cat I had no rights it seems. I had to "bail" radically, teabagging my niece. Next time I just may hold my course and cut that A-Cat in half w/ my TheMightyHobie18 or P19 that I need a tractor to drag around.

There are alot of cat sailors out there that sail BORING H16's/TheMightyHobie18's and other older cats, that are excellent sailors and are having a good time.

It's about selecting the correct boat to get Roland (and his family), started sailing Catamarans, and wanting to keep sailing/racing Cats into the future, while developing his skill set.

It's just like if you knew someone who wants to race cars ... you are not going to put them in a INDY or Formula ONE car to start w/ ... or are you???

An A-Cat is a beautiful sailing machine ... delicate, fragile and must be treated w/ care. A Nacra20 is a big wonderfully strong catamaran that needs TWO experienced crewman to sail properly.

I wouldn't recommend either boat to a "Newbie"


Harry

Afircat,
I sailed out of WRCRA and have a boat I need to part with. Send me a message to my mailbox. And I can discuss further.
Kevin Cook

Roland,

FYI: Mr Kevin Cook is one of the most experienced catamaran sailors and boatbuilders on the Chesapeake Bay !!!! Besure to "pick his brain" throughly ....

His technical knowledge of catamaran sailing and construction methods is far above most of us mere mortals.

I would also ask for a ride on his new Trimaran he completed building last year!!!!!

Harry

Hey Harry,
I pretty much dive into everything at the most advanced level I can afford. The P-19 was what I raced after sailing with B.J. on the 16. Then I MXed it and added the 465 sq.ft. kite,then went to the 20.
"What's starting to annoy me is the attitude that if you are not sailing a $20,000 catamaran you are not worthy .... Last year I was severely cut-off on a leeward/windward crossing stuation when I was the right of way vessel ... but since I was a lowly TheMightyHobie18 and not the A-Cat I had no rights it seems. I had to "bail" radically, teabagging my niece. Next time I just may hold my course and cut that A-Cat in half w/ my TheMightyHobie18 or P19 that I need a tractor to drag around."
I get the opposite treatment on the 20 and the A, it's almost as if the Hobie 18s,17s and 16s on port are thinking "he'll get out of our way,'cause his boat cost more"Spring fever is a perfect example. That's BULLSH!T either way. Rules is rules.
I think you also missed the point. He was interested in WRSC and their 2 classes in cat right now are A-cat and N-20 with a growing F-16 class.
Todd

OK Harry, now I'm blushing...Put the tri back on her mooring at Pirate's Cove last Sunday. Rides always available to WRCRA members.
Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Could a lowly CRAC member get a ride sometime also???

Are you planning on competing in any of the CBYRA "Big Boat" regattas with that new Tri??? The Cruising Cats are a nice group of friendly people, and the competition is tight ... the F31's are tough to beat.

A group of us from CRAC/WRCRA/WRSC are crewing/sailing on "TripleThreat" (43' Corsair) and are having a good time. It would be nice to see you out on the water and at the after-race parties.


And Guys,

I apologize for being in a "pissie" mood yesterday ... but I do feel my comments are valid points. For a "Newbie", I believe a A-Cat or N20 for a first boat is problematic. We as a group are unique and specialized sailors ... and A-Cats and N20's are what I would call the "deep end of the pool" .... usually they don't recommend jumping straight away into the "deep end" .... but ... some people do ... and thrive!!!!

Harry

Kevin,
If you do decide to do any big boat racing on your tri, I'd love to crew for you. Just let me know. I'm sure there would be no shortage of folks to help race your boat.
I saw you coming into West River on Sunday after the regatta and she's a beautiful boat, great lines.
Todd

R,

"As Chris was leaving last Saturday, he introduced me to another Nacra sailor, who suggested I get on their crew e-mail list. Is there a Nacra-specific distribution list? If so, how can I get on there to see if anybody can use last-minute crew for Tuesday evening cat sailing?"

This "Chris" you speak of, was that me or one of the other 4 or so Chris or Kris-es at our club? If you want on the N20 email list then PM me and I will add you to the list. The Tuesday night racing email list is controlled by Keith, PM him.

"Looking at the rules for joining WRSC, to become a full-fledged member you have to own, outright or as a share, one of the OD fleets that are part of the club. Do I understand that correctly? But during one of the rare breaks on the RC boat, Peter mentioned that there were other options for boat-less membership. So I'll have to investigate that as well."

You don't have to own to be a full voting member, we will take all the money you want to give us. There are cheaper way to join. Once you PM me I'll give you my tele number and I will walk you thru the options.

"partnership"

Perhaps a better word is co-owning. This can be a very good way of getting the most out of your money. You should have an agreement, this doesn't have to be difficult to do, "the Yachtsmen Guide to Co-Ownership" has a sample agreement that could be used probably verbatim. I've co-owned and can tell you the good the bad and the potential ugly of it. We have some examples of co-ownership within our N20 fleet that seem to be working out really well.

When are you leaving? How many kids do you have? The whole Hi-tech thingy isn’t the argument for me. Its more important what mother nature is doing than how advanced or “Hi-tech” the boat is. Its about Power management. In my opinion, a higher-tech boat will be easier to manage power. We are not blowing thru sails even on a yearly basis.

An aside about the one day that I decided to NOT take my kids out on the N20 last year: Sunny, really warm, club packed with people and families, great day to show all these half boaters what a full boat can do, right? I stood by the launch ramp with my then 6 and 8 year old both fully stoked about it just being the three of us goin’ out on Gerite. I stood there for probably ten minutes, looking at the water and wind with sweat just running of me. To my kids disappoint, I declared we were going kayaking instead. My 8 year old son, who, lets say speaks his mind, pretty much called me out as being a big pussy. He stomps off with my 6 year old in tow to go and get the kayak paddles. Enter laser guy. Nice enough guy on the whole, he has his family there and is just amazed with my decision to not sail. Apparently, amazed enough to actually question my decision, with “are you kidding me, this has to be the greatest day for sailing I’ve seen on the bay.” I tried to explain to him that I actually like my kids and wasn’t going to scare them. I was significantly lacking crew weight and crew experience for those conditions and that although my boat is easy to depower the wind was simple blowing to hard. Even if I had another adult with me we wouldn’t have gone. That was not the conditions to be taking a N20, Blade or probably even a hobie 18 with kids on it out sailing. Race in it, you bet! Go yahoo sailing with experienced crew sure, but not with kids. He questioned me again about disappointing my kids, blah blah blah…. This was becoming a scene…I ended up cutting him off with I’ll ask for your opinion next time I desire it kind of statement. As were shoving off …now his wife is offended and tries to come to her husbands aid, blah blah blah… I think perhaps I was to direct but I asked her if she had ever been around the forestay? In there ensuing confusion, we had a great time kayaking, we went down wind seldom paddling then I ended up towing them both back; that was great exercise. We get back to the beach and there is laser guy trying to straighten his mast at one of the picnic tables. Me boy started to question him, and I stopped him, leave him alone he is gaining experience.

Chris,

Your post so eliquently makes the point that I was unable to make. When I was racing down at Solomons Island on my P19MX w/ Megan who was 10yrs old at the time, I realized how poor of a decision I had made that day when Megan BOUNCED headfirst off of the mast, with a loud, frightening, and scary BONNNNNNG and went spinning off into the jib still on the wire.... when a "Microburst" hit us.

To say my heart skipped a beat is an understatement, it skipped several I believe. But what was worse, was the guilt I felt afterwards. Now Megan wanted to sail the very next weekend and laughs now about bouncing off the mast.

So while I get GREAT pleasure sailing my P19MX ... I realized that I get even greater pleasure sailing w/ my niece, watching her learn, improve and grow. So I had a decision to make .... hence the pieces of my TheMightyHobie18 where gathered up from their various storage locations around the house/garage/shed and re-assembled. And we have been having alot of fun on my ol'TheMightyHobie18 .... but Megan is aggitating to race the P19MX this year ..... along w/ the TheMightyHobie18. And she now has a Laser (which we share, she sails it and I pay the bills ....)

Now I believe the F16 is a excellent selection for a young and growing family. Highly flexible sailplan so that the whole family can sail using the various configurations. And when I saw "Lucky Duck"/Ed and John McLaughlin yesterday at "Gunpowder" I gently needled them on when they would have a Fleet of F16's at WRSC. I hope that happens soon ....

And Chris ... you demostrated one of the most important qualities of being a skipper/captain. You analyzed the situation, made a decision and STUCK to it.

Harry Murphey

Ain't that the truth

Wouter

I agree Chris,Common sense is a good thing.
Your boy IS right though.
Tawd

Harry, I wasn't trying to make your point. Megan bouncing off your mast could happen on the Hobie 18 as well.

F16 thingy...yeah I like the f16s, and there to small for me.

Todd, Nice! Thats more like it.

Harry. I've done two Statue races on the A Cat so Bite Me!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (still laughing).

Harry,

I hadn't been back here in awhile. That was a near Sailing Anarchy level of "your full of it" reply that I cannot completely ignore. I realize the issue has been largely put to bed by others in my absence, but after brief and careless consideration have decided to engage the discussion.

I think your basic premise that high tech automatically means high maintenance, difficult to sail or frail is.... to put it most directly, wrong. If this were the case wouldn't we all still be sailing monohulls made of timber with square sails?

Adding technology to a boat can have numerous impacts, including ease of use and improved durability as well as performance. Yes, I know Acats are light and focused on performance, but besides being capable of sailing well in a wide range of breeze, the "high tech" lets me pull it up the beach when I'm tired and right it quickly when I need too (such as before drifting into the Pirates Cove Marina fairway after a showboating/hull flying failure).

Other than a carbon mast that failed due to a stainless bolt coming loose I have not had anything fail or wear out on an ACat that I wouldn't expect to wear out on any cat/boat (tramp lacing, trap lines, a single block on the mainsheet). Today we have two sanctioned and one budding fleet of cats at WRSC. The N20 does a great job for double handed racing in almost any condition and will do duty as a family cruiser on the river. The Acat is (IMHO) simply the most fun you can have racing a single handed boat of any kind. Ed and his F16 cohorts have found a boat that offers some aspects of both.

I don't think you meant to sound like a close minded establishment monohull sailor, but you sorta did.

Roland. It was great to met you Saturday at Gunpowder. I hope you don't think we're evil with the tone we take on some of our posts. It's all in fun and there's really much love. In fact just the other day Chris was walking hand in hand with an A Catter. It was a majic moment. Ed

Are you sure he wasn't just handing the A-catter a check to repair his boat. Gertie seems to have an appetite for A-cats.
Tawd

P.s. Ed you suck too. Frickin' Turncoat.

Harry and Todd: Thanks for the comments. While I haven't sailed cats actively in several years, I hope that my experience sailing cats growing up, and racing 420s in college, would take me somewhat beyond "newbie" status.

If I wasn't relocating overseas this summer, I would seriously consider an A-cat. Although I'm sure I would end up at the very back of the pack, I'm also confident that it would be a blast. Last time I sailed a Hobie 18 was an incredible experience. Rented an TheMightyHobie18 with wings from an outfit in Hyeres, France, with a girl from my high school during summer, a few weeks before graduation. Even though she had cruising experience, it was tougher than we expected sailing up the coast and camping on beaches. But the memories are priceless (see my avatar picture).

Kevin: That new tri sounds quite exciting. Thanks for the offer of a ride. Not sure I'm ready to acquire my own cat quite yet. Will get in touch if I decide it's a reasonable option to go that way.



Yup, I'm pretty sure it was you, Chris (Allen). PM sent. (I noted from the board at WRSC that your e-mail is your sail number, but couldn't remember the domain.) Not sure I have the contact for Kris, but we can figure that via PM.



Thanks for the kind offer. Would love to take you up on both the e-mail list(s) and help on joining WRSC. Thanks also for your thoughts on co-owning. I think that would be a good option for my purposes medium- to long-term. Short-term the goal is to get on the water as crew, and the list(s) will hopefully help with that.



We expect to leave in early August, so there's a little more than three months left. Two kids, boy is 7 months and daughter is 3.5 years. While I would consider taking the girl for a ride on a cat with an extra set of hands to help on a slow day close to shore, both are obviously too young to sail on a regular basis right now, and will be for some time. So the decision at this stage is more about me than the kids.

With that said, I'm sure I would appreciate and enjoy learning to sail a "high tech" boat. When I last sailed that Hobie 18 (see above), I remember it was heavy to handle. And I was in better shape then... So anything that is lighter to handle is a plus in my book.

-Roland E.

Thanks for the tip about RHYC, Harry. I noticed the event on the Hobie Div 11/Fleet 54 website. For a home club, I'm hoping for something on the West side of the Bay, so as to avoid bridge traffic. But Down the River and the Annual OD Regatta sound great. I may be traveling in Europe for work that week, but if not, will try to make it out.



Ed, now you've got me confused. I wasn't able to make it to Gunpowder, unfortunately. Were you at WRSC Spring Regatta too and we met there? I have to admit I'm getting somewhat mixed up between everybody's screen names and real names. Lots of new faces in a short period of time, and I'm terrible with names.

I certainly don't mind the comments. Passion for something (i.e. a boat) you believe in is healthy. And as Mike F alluded to above, Catsailor is quite mild compared to Sailing Anarchy, even though that place serves a very useful purpose as well.

And, awesome that you've done to Statue of Liberty races on an A-cat. Having lived in NYC for some years, that would have to be the coolest regatta, on a cool boat to boot. Will have to put that on my "to do" list for when I get back Stateside in 2012. (Yikes, that's far out!)

Ed,

I hadn't heard that you started and completed the "Statue" on a "A-Cat" not once but twice .... thats 36 miles (on the rumbline) each time on what can be some of the roughest sailing around.

I stand corrected and humbled by your achievement ... will you allow me to buy you some beverages and dinner when you visit RHYC in June????


Herbie53

Please read that second sentence in your first post carefully .... I've owned a TheMightyHobie18 since 1985 .... and WHAT did you compare my boat to ???? You flicked my "Irish" switch .....

I should have ignored it but ... I am Irish!!!!

Next, a set of new sails(from the Hobie Factory) cost $1300-$1400 currently .... the price set of sails for my P19MX currently (from recent quotes) $2200-$2500. And that doesn't include the spinnacker .... should we add another $1200-$1500 ??? Both sets last about the same length of time w/ the TheMightyHobie18 Dacron jib lasting just slightly longer then the P19MX Pentex jib. (The Pentex doesn't seem to like "flogging" and can start to de-laminate if "flogged" for any amount of time.)

I was also trying to point out to Roland (gently) that he may want to consider a "more child proof boat" let's say .... what would happen if some kids wanted to "Play" on an A-Cat ... you know climb all over, jumping up and down on the tramp ... let alone go for a ride .... can you take two people out on an A-Cat????? Even if one is small as a child????

It's been my observation (from watching my bud's getting married and starting families)... if the whole family can not participate in an activity, the family will fined and change to an activity that will allow them to participate together.

And then I don't know how many times I've seen the scenerio of someone buying "Too Much" boat and getting caught out on a breezy/windy day and coming back in w/ the "Sh_t Scared Out of Them" ..... I saw that alot w/ the female/male teams on the Hobie 20 (Miracle) when they first came out. A couple of my friends did that to their wives and that was it .... done!!!

And in closing ... high tech is not a Monohull vs Multihull issue. There are Hi-Tech multi's and also Mono's just as there are low tech Multi's and Mono's. What do you think it costs to campaign a Melges 24, a "J" boat or a Star boat??? If you discount my sailing sunfishs and frostbiting Lasers, I've been on one monohull sailboat (an Island Packet) and I couldn't get used to the boat heeling over 45* ... my beer kept on spilling. So just because I'm promoting selecting a meduim-tech boat doesn't make me a "MONOHULLER"!!!!!

Now when you come over to RHYC in June, I'll buy you a beer, or several and we'll have a good laugh about this ...

HarryMurphey

Ok so who's the guy from South Africa that I met at Gunpowder? I assumed it was you Roland because of the Africat handle. I'm old but I hope I'm not halucinating yet!! But then again, how would I know?

Ed

Harry,

I wasn't trying to flick your Irish with the TheMightyHobie18 comment, but I was doing nothing more and nothing less with the monohuller comparison.

I really have nothing against monohulls... campaigning a M24 on the cheap is about $4k per season, doing it right is about $10k (x any travel regattas), a set of sails is around $6k and if you want to sail in the top half you'll need them at least every other year... it takes 4 crew + helm that are willing to commit to sailing together season after season.

No where was I implying or saying that an ACat is a family daysailor, it's not. It isn't intended to carry the weight, the boom is too low, and the platform is narrow. What I will say is that it is the most fun you can have on a sailboat by yourself (or with your imaginary crew).

I think the real discussion is whether someone new to cat sailing (particulars of interest aside) is better off starting on an older, less expensive boat or just jumping into something a bit more current. For me buying as much of the lastest "technology" as I could afford made and makes sense. My first cat was an I20 and while it could be a bit sporty at times the modern sail plan, carbon mast, forgiving hull shape and well laid out sail controls were all big pluses.

I think the capper for Roland is that WRSC offers a pretty good OD sailing scene for the three boats mentioned above as well as a great place to bring the kids and just hang out (or heaven forbid, sail a monohull -- like one of the club optis or 420s).

"Are you sure he wasn't just handing the A-catter a check to repair his boat. Gertie seems to have an appetite for A-cats."

Gertie's getting hungry, one whole regatta and no munch, munch. Better bring your real boat next time you come up here, wouldn't want to classify you as a LALB sailor!

BTW, thanks for the laugh, I'm in f'in Lansing MI, somebody please shoot me!

That's funny, Ed. I've been wondering how people were going to interpret my handle.

Not sure who the guy from South Africa was. While I've been to South Africa before, I'm definitely not from there. And I wasn't at Gunpowder. I chose my handle because I'm about to relocate to Africa in August, and hope to sail cats a lot while over there. West Africa in my case.

Mike, I think we have a very similar approach to things. Although I sure would like to be able to keep something like a Hobie FX-one at WRSC for toodling around too. However, since I'm likely not going to get a boat before relocating to Senegal in August, that's really a non-issue right now. I wonder if Hobie makes an F-16? Maybe it will by the time I get back Stateside in 2012.



The way it's pouring rain here, Chris, I can't imagine Lansing being much worse than here. Eh? Definitely agree about the laugh, though. If we've got to be stuck on land reading Catsailor, it should at least be entertaining.

Hi Herbie/Mike,

Thank you for the nice post .... I do like the A-Cats, I know I can't afford one but I'm following Tony's progress on his project w/ keen interest. Maybe I will build one ....

I'm sorry I was in such a touchy mood on Saturday ... I was "sandbagged" into working Saturday afternoon instead of being able to go to Gunpowder .... (unfinished Friday job)

I hope you will be coming to RHYC on June 19, 20-21st. Would a draft 16oz Yuengling Lager be acceptable????

Harry

It is all a question of how much money one can spend or is willing to spend. However, I've become convinced that the most attractive tree of beach cat designs is something like depicted in the attached picture.

Of course there are "specials" like the Nacra 20 for the Tybee racing along the US eastern coast or the Hobie 16 for really cheap secondhanders or low tech fun filled racing on provided boats or indeed the SL16 as the youth boat. But neither of these has a very large footprint in the beach catamaran scene of tomorrow. At least for Europe the Nacra 500 seems to be speeding ahead and looks to overtake the H16's and SL16's in the various roles despite other plans by ISAF. Of course the H16's racing will always remain till the last "old salt" who grew up on them has died, but to give a counterexample. I think there are less then 10 H16's at my club of about 100 boats, and only 1 appears to be used for sailing. In the last 3 years the new Nacra 500's have eclipsed the H16's at my club and they are actively sailed. The new sail design by Peter Vink is a big improvement and these 500's are great little boats and take a spi upgrade well (unlike the H16's or Dart 18's).

The Nacra 500 (or predessor nacra 5.0) will handle any family use really well and is still viable for solo sailing by an adult. The hullshape is really well designed and handles chop really well. The modern rig is miles and miles ahead of even the newest H16's. And that links it up very well with any upgrade to say the F18's, F16's or the A-cats. If you are going to by a new boat then the Nacra 500 should be on top of your list. I really mean that.

The rest of the plot is pretty self explanatory. Formula 18 is THE class in beach cat sailing at the moment and looksto remain so for many years to come. The A-cat is the undisputed option for singlehanded racing while the F16 combines both into one single and less expensive package and is growing into viable fleets the world over.

The path to Olympic racing (used to be the tornado) is also obvious if you are planning into that direction. The best preparation for that run through the F18 class.

Of course, switching between the three "main" classes F18, F16 and A-cat is seen regulary depending on personal circumstances like local fleets or a change in family make-up. All three seem close enough in comparison to make switching easy.

The pricing/costs associated with these classes also runs from left to right with respect to getting more expensive.

And of course any cat design you can buy cheap and learn the ropes on is a good substitute for getting started on the Nacra 500 or Nacra 5.0

I hope this helps,

Wouter

Ohh, I forgot.

Of course neither Nacra or Hobie make a F16. But that is their bad call as they are trying to play the old game of strict Single Manufacturer One Design classes when the cat scene has changed profoundly in that respect.

HOWEVER !

Hobie does have a design that compares very closely to the new Nacra 500 and that is the Hobie MAX.

Hobie max specs on Hobie Europe website

A few Hobie MAX pictures


I really don't understand however why Hobie Corp is not running full force with that model.

It is simply the best model they have after their F18 designs in the way of design and usefulness, where of course the H16 is still 1st in popularity.


The specs of the MAX are almost identical to the Nacra 500 and these two boats could easily form a Formula class of their own. Sort of like a "tuned-down and cheaper F16 class" for recreational sailing oriented crews. But also one that is really viable for youth sailing as well, unlike the current ISAF selection that is the SL16 design. Although the SL16 share the same specs and could become part of this formula class as well.


Hobie MAX

Length 4.91 mtr
Beam 2.50 mtr
weight 150 kg
Mainsail 13.76 sq. mtr. x 7.44 mtr
Jib 3.66 sq. mtr x 5.08 mtr
Spi 15.0 sq. mtr


Nacra 500 ( To see pics of the Nacra 500 )

Length 5.05 mtr
Beam 2.44 mtr
weight 150 kg
Mainsail 13.83 sq. mtr. x 7.74 mtr
Jib 3.83 sq. mtr x 5.06 mtr
Spi 17.0 sq. mtr


Sirena SL16

Length 4.80 mtr
Beam 2.35 mtr
weight 152 kg
Mainsail 13.80 sq. mtr. x 7.40 mtr
Jib 3.80 sq. mtr x 5.30 mtr
Spi 17.0 sq. mtr



There is one big drawback of the Hobie MAX however. Hobie cat seem to ignore it to death and has priced it beyond the F16's and Nacra 500's ! Which is bloody rediculous if you ask me. There is no reason why the MAX must be at least a 1000 Euro's more expensive then a thorough bred F16. Even the most expensive (upgraded) Nacra 500 is at this time something like 3000 Euro's cheaper then the (standard) MAX, which is killing for the MAX in the current cat market.

But if you really want to have a Hobie product then maybe asking for the MAX at your local dealor may be a wise decision.

Wouter

Wow... The world spins in circles.

Right before the crash of cat sailing in the US... The major boat show, The Annapolis boat show had displays from Prindle 16 Nacra 5.0 Dart 18, Hobie 16 and the Isotope. I went with the intention of buying a Prindle 16, Since every rental Hobie 16 that I had sailed had so much weather helm that I was convinced that is how they normally sailed. Dart offered sailing demo's and nobody else was doing that.. (and I thought it was the best looking boat.) So... off to sandy point park for the demo... The Nacra dealer (now a good friend) shows up with a 5.0 to poach the prospects from the Dart dealer. The Dart dealer is a little guy with short man's complex and he winds up screaming at the Nacra guy, (6 foot and 200 lbs). He was poaching his leads and to the customers, he was making the point that the 5.0 violated his patent on the skeg design and the boat would be soon out of production... Oh and the Dart was the ISAF approved boat.. (who the hell were they?) yada yada yada... I wound up sailing both boats and bought the Dart... Bottom line... it was lighter then the Nacra 5.0 and seemed more responsive to a non sailor. Both boats never caught on and the Nacra 5.0 proved to be a much faster boat then it's 16 foot length would have you believe.

It's fascinating that the 5.0 is now Nacra's access to performance boats. In the US... the only boat that really survives in the US market today is the Hobie 16... We see a couple of new ones in the hands of the racers every year. We had one German guy get a 5.0 and sail it for a few years and then take it back to Germany.

Africat,

I would decide if you want to pay for a club to keep the mast up or trailer from the back yard.

The thing to keep in mind is that you need to have a good time when there is no wind... So, a pleasant club to hang out on the beach on those days is as important as the boat to sail when you have wind. The WAF is usually dependent on the bathroom facilities.... port a potties don't cut it.

If the WRSA fleet boats don't grab you right now... There are other marinas which don't race but allow you to put any boat you want on the beach. (I keep my boat at Podickory Point YC near the bay bridge)

If you trailer sail, You can trek to Sandy Point to rig and launch, but few catamarans go there anymore and it's a public beach or you can go racing with the Hobie fleets at clubs and beachs in the mid atlantic. .... All are very different experiences and they come at different price points and with tradeoffs. Make this call first and then the boat flavor second.

Since you plan to go overseas...and I assume that they will ship your boat for you... buy anything and sell it over there when you are done with your tour... The EU diplomats that I know had a Hobie 16 that changed owners every two years for 16 years at my club at Podickory.

Brilliant comments, Wouter!

I love the graphic you put together. Realistically speaking, I'll be sailing Hobie 16s -- as old as they are -- a lot for relatively cheap as soon as I get to Dakar. The experience sailing them will be worth more than any boat I can buy right now. When I get back to the US in 2012, whatever sailing club I choose, I can pick any cat that fits the bill then. No hurry now.



Wise words, Mark!

While I've thought of myself as a Hobie sailor for most of my life, I've come to realize that it's about more than brand loyalty. There's no way I am going to trailer a catamaran every time I want to sail. Absolutely no way! So a mast-up club is the only way to go for me. Mast-up is significantly more important to me than choice of boat. I'll sail a mast-up boat more -- regardless of whether I need to organize crew or not -- than anything I need to trailer and waste an hour setting up.

Also, I've just received word that I'm not going to be able to ship a beach cat in the container without extra cost, if it's possible at all. So I've decided not to buy a boat now. Instead, I'll sail whatever I find once I get to Dakar, i.e. Hobie 14, 16, and 21. If I still want a new boat, I'll just buy and ship something new from France.

So "make [the launch site] call first and then the boat flavor second" is excellent advice. Will definitely have to check out Podickory Point YC. Thank you!

-Roland E.

Best of luck Africat.



Hobie France makes all the interesting Hobies anyway ! So this might just be the smartest option anyway !

Fair winds to you !

Wouter

This is a very interesting thread, However way off topic.

Let's redirect this thread back to Chesapeake Bay sailing...

I would like to put some props out for an event next weekend in Virginia Beach... Sail the Bay Regatta. Hobie Fleet 32 always puts on a great event, great party and great sailing in the Chesapeake. This is always on my schedule. It conflicts with the Tybee, but if you are not involved with the Tybee... This one is worth the trip.

Find out more http://www.hobiefleet32.org/

Should be a good weekend. The A cats are trying to reciprocate the Va Beach guys trip north last month. So far 4 boats are planning on racing.

The open class is dead, The Hobie classes generally aim for Syracuse with the rest of division 11 and the madcatter but the F16's and N20's are on the fence, so...

Sic em!

Mark,

Just for everyone's edification, what format is this regatta being held/scored. "Open" Class ... "Hobie Only" ... and what classes (if known) will have a start.

Harry Murphey

Who is coming from Fleet 32

OPEN.... they don't discriminate. They have a good fleet of A cats and a 3 F18s registered. I'm planning to take the H16 with my daughter. They alway have a great H16 turnout. But with some F18s showing up, I may have to introduce my daughter to the F18... I'll make a last minute call depending on the wind.

It is also the Shark nationals. I gained a lot respect for those boats 2 years ago... It was blowing about 25 out of the NW, which made the bay like a washing machine. Those Sharks were just tanking their way through to chop and amazingly fast for a big ole wooden boat.