Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals

Just pondering?????

How do Mischa H, Steve Lohmayer, JC, and the rest of the Tybee racers match up against Smyth, Guck, Struble, Melvin, the Glasers and the A-Cat National crowd?

Around the cans? Down the beach?

Most of both groups have done both and there is a history of the head to head match ups.

I look forward to the opinions.

Wow, way to stir the mud!

IMHO, the A-Catters are in their own league regardless of type of course. Regarding distance racing,

Let's see, put Smyth and Struble on the same boat for the Tybee....wait they have already done the Worrell together and smashed everyone. I would bet that this dynamic duo would rule the T-500 as well.

Around the bouys......

Guck outshown the top T-500 talent (??Mischa??)on the Tornado in Europe a couple years ago. I think that Struble placed on top of Mischa at the Tornado Worlds a few years back, but other than that I am not sure of much direct competition between the Mischa and the A-Catters. There doesn't to seem to be any head to head match ups recently, however. Regardless, Mischa is an excellent sailor both in distance racing and course racing.

After Mischa I think that there is a pretty step drop in talent level at the T-500. Steve L has been around for a while and is a top distance guy, but doesn't fair as well at the bouy races. JC is another talented sailor, but not at Smyth, Guck, Melvin, the Glassers, nor Struble's level. The "honorable mention sailors" (dare I say "second tier" sailors) at the A-Cat Nationals is a cut above their T-500 peers. Hodges, Hall, Cogan, Oliver, Arends.........the list goes on and on....

The A-Catters have dozens (hundreds)of World and National titles to their credit. How about the T-500 guys? Let us know?

Interesting question...............

I can't wait!

no contest,

A cat

I actually think it is time to put some of the A skippers on the F18 worlds entry listing.

Set them up for some nice cold perspective.

There is only one guy that has been succesful in both the A-cat and F18/Tornado class at the same time and that is Glenn Ashby. And many have seen him work harder for his wins in the F18 and Tornado classes then in the A-cat worlds he participated in. Point in case, he was 3rd in this years 160 boat F18 fleet at Carnac Eurocat 2009.

About Smyth I don't think there is much of an argument, but I'm not sure Matt Strubble will survive in the European catamaran fleets. Winning the North American nationals is an achivement, but it is not on a par with the European title in say the F18's or an Aussie title with Bundock, Booth, Brewin and Ashby on the starting line.

I also think that people are not giving JC enough credit. He came over last year and received his "perspective". He admitted so himself. But he has also been making steady improvements and is undoubtably a better sailor now then he was two years ago when he was already pretty dominant in the US scene.

Wouter

Ashby only beat US sailor Lars Guck by 2 points at the 2007 A-Class WC. Matt Struble sailed a brief Tornado campaign and in his first year of sailing finished 13th out of 70 boats at the Tornado European Championship. Oh and Matt is also a two time DN Iceboat World Champion. The A-Class WC is on par competition wise with the F-18 WC.

The usual spray by Wouter. The usual, nothing to see here, blah blah blah...

At lease he offered a reasoned opinion which is more than what I can say about your last post, Tiapanfc if you aren't prepared to back it up with your own reasoned opinion then why write your usual negative response, go Wout.

He finished about 1 minute behind Mischa on day one. Of course there was the OCS penalty.

I think that Wouter got off the original subject, that is, how do you compare the relative talent of the A-Cat Nationals and the Tybee-500?

Ashby is not in either race. Ashby is a pro and his livelyhood is all about sailing. This type of sailor in the US small catsailor ranks is not currently found. Ashby is an incredible sailor, especially on the A-Cat. Besides, Ashby is the CREW on the F-18 and Tornado teams, isn't he?

Agreed-Smyth is a legend and one of our last "pro" catsailors. Struble on the other hand is not a pro sailor, but I think he is a mechanical engineer working in the automotive industry. He has won the World Championship in the DN iceboats twice in a row. Wasn't one of his wins at DN WCs in Europe? Seen him sail-he is definately on level with Smyth. ENOUNGH SAID.

Back to the original question-Higher talent level at A-Cat NAs or T-500?

Mischa, Mike Eason, Chris Green, Mike Krantz, Steve Lohmeyer, and John Casey VERSES Randy Smyth, Matt Struble, Pete Melvin, Lars Guck, Bob Hodges, and Jay/Pease Glasser. How would you handicap this?

Because to be honest, it is just a pissing contest. The talented sailors always rise to the top, no whatever class they are in. Seems to me to be kind of a schoolyard "baseball" card debate.

Which could be fun in and of itself!

When Michael Jordan left basketball for baseball, I assumed he would excell. It didn't happen, at times he even looked foolish.

Around the cans, you have a chance to rest between races. Not so with the Tybee.

Imo, the two disciplines are too different to make a flat statement.

It takes every bit as much talent to crew on a Tornado or an F18 as it does to helm. If the crew is not at least as good as the helm they’re holding the team back (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

The next F18 Worlds Ashby is going to helm, should be interesting to see how that turns out.
He will probably still be in the top-5 or something.

mr Acat230,

Do you read your own comments ?




So Ashby won the A-cat worlds, but comes in 3rd with Bundy at the helm in Eurocat 2009 which is not even a F18 championship race.





So the answer is in. Even back in the day when Matt was full-on campaigning on the Tornado, he was outside the top 10 in the EU Tornado fleet. No disrespect to Matt, but it does show that a certain difference in competitiveness is to be found between US and EU racing fleets. Now try a 150+ F18 fleet where basically the who-is-who of Tornado sailing are participating in as well. There is a good change then that he'll will be outside the top 20.




I rest my case.




That is something else then the earlier claim made by Bvinning that there is "no contest, A-cat". Hinting the US A-cat class was superior in skill. Or the other poster who suggested that (and I quote) "second-tier" guys like Tony Arends, Ben Hall, Peter Cogan and Tracy Oliver are still one level up from the guys in the Tybee-500.

I was of course responding to those posts.

I'm convinced reality is just a tad different.


Fact is, of course, that the Tybee-500 attracts a different set of sailors and it is only just attracting some of bigger names of EU/F18 sailing. The real difference between this years Tybee and the US national A-cat fleet is the depth of talent. Here the Tybee is still lacking. But then again the Tybee is an out-of-the-ordinary event rather then a national fleet. Apples and Oranges.

WOuter

Its kind of an apples and oranges comparison as Todd noted, a team vs one up, and yes Wouter got off track, the original question was "how does the sailing talent at the Acat NA's stack up against the Tybee500."

If you look at the total list of sailors at both events the Acat Na's has more medals, and championships and a deeper bench.

Not to take anything away from the Tybee sailors, the Tybee is an amazing race, and its way tougher than sailing a cuple of bouy races on an acat. Its on my list.

Wouter
The original question was 2009 US Acat NA's vs 2009 US Tybee500 sailors.

You turned this into F18 US vs F18 Europe, which is not what we were discussing.

If you look at the total number of championships, medals, etc on the Acat fleet it a way longer list than the Tybee list, simple - 2009 Acat NA sailors have more, I think that Randy has more by himself. Acat fleet easily wins this rather silly arguement.

Wouter, Why dont you start your own thread on your other rather silly argument, F18 Europe vs F18 USA.

What are the ages, and years sailing cats for each of these competitors? I don't know how old JC is, but Trey Brown is young enough, as are many in the Tybee fleet, to be my son. The A Catters seem to be dominated by guys from my generation, or older.

Very true!
A few years back, during the Harken races many of the A-skippers were .... very... "experienced"

It was wild to watch a few 70+ guys lift their mast off the beam solo.... i had never been up close to an A-cat before then and had to manually reel my jaw back on my face.

I asked if i could feel the mast and he said... "it will cost you 20grand, cause after you feel it.. you will want to buy one"

i feel i would break that cat in 1/2 within a week...

I have sailed an A cat since and it was neat to be on such a light, responsive cat

Bill,




I understand that.

But that still doesn't make the following comment truthful.

"The "honorable mention sailors" (dare I say "second tier" sailors) at the A-Cat Nationals is a cut above their T-500 peers. Hodges, Hall, Cogan, Oliver, Arends.........the list goes on and on...."


I would rather claim that theses names are at best on a par with Heemskerk and JC. But we don't really known from real race data as they pretty much stick to A-cat racing only. We do know however that Ashby has beaten the lot of them many times over and is finding it alot harder to win those class races where sailors like Mischa have made a name for themselves. That is the reason for dragging in the US vs EU tangent.

Smyth may have a long list of international championships of various multihull classes under his belt but Strubble and Melvin are much less celebrated with respect to cat racing. Hell, just look over Melvins record shows this as his major achievements ;

2005 A-cat world champ
1997 A-cat world champ
1996 2nd at F18 European champs (F18 class was only formed in 1994 and was a very young class at the time)
1993 4th Tornado worlds
1988 14th Olympic games Tornado


Refering to the A-cat results is like bootstrapping yourself out of quicksand. You can't proof the skill level is high (as compared to other classes) in the A-cat class because former A-cat champions are sailing in it. In that case my own club races are of very high level as the F16 world champion is participating in those. So what are we left with is :

A pretty unconclusive 2nd at the (very young) F18 Europeans in 1996
A 14th at the Olympics in Korea (out of 20 in total)

That leaves a 4th place at the 1993 Tornado worlds. I think Mischa did something like that at one time as well. But he is still young and may do better in the future, same for JC.


So yeah, Smyth and the Glasers I'll give you that. Melvin is probably somewhere between the two fleets, but I'm personally not convinced that Strubble, Guck, Cogan, Arends, etc are a "cut above the Tybee sailors" as quoted. Truly and honestly, I think that if we place them on a par with Heemskerk and JC that we give them more then enough benefit of the doubt.

And personally I don't include any DN iceboating championships when comparing soft water sailing skills between sailors. I do landyachting myself (very comparable) and it is a different sport altogether.


Personally, I think it is time some of the "A-cat only" gods do some cross training in other cataraman classes if they want to proof their superiority. Ashby did and found it alot more challenging outside of the A-cat framework then inside of it. Which may well also explain why non A-cat based sailors have shorter lists of past championships.

That was my point.


And before anybody tries that other tangent. Yes I do also do judge "my own class" that way. The F16 champ of 2007 was only about 50th at the A-cat worlds.

Wouter

Wouter,

Comparing DN Ice Boats with landyachting is almost funny. DN class is well respected by all serious water-sailors. Karol (Poland) and Struble (USA) are great examples of the type of sailor involved (both multitime champs). Any "world-class" landyachters?

Even more crazy-comparing F16 World Champs with A-Class World Champs. Who is the F16 WC? Ashby, Melvin, or Booth would do "OK" against them-YA THINK? Maybe even Smyth, Struble, Guck, Hodges, Hall........?

HA HA

You mentioned Struble being given the benefit of the doubt when comparing favorably to John Casey or Heemskert (sp). I think that the last race I know that Casey and Struble raced against one another was at a Alter Cup which Struble won every race in the series. I could be wrong......

Regardless, sailors (keyboard jockeys) like you and myself are not worthy of making "calls" on some of the skill levels discussed. I am a "mid-fleeter" and I did see you sail a few years ago in Georgia. Have you been on a boat with any of these sailors or even in the same end of the fleet? Need I continue?

Isn't it a lot like running though? Sprinters don't necessarily do well at 400, even less so at longer distances. I'd guess the marathon is in a class by itself.

pgp,

Good analogy.

Smyth, Guck and Struble have won both at the big distance racing and at major bouy racing, as has Mischa.

Steve and PGP,

Those guys must be "bi-athletes"...haw haw...

Seriously, many catsailors do well in both the long hauls and around the cans.

Good luck to all the racers in both events. Hope the wind picks up (not too much-no thunderstorms please) for the Tybee folks, as it seems painfully light now.

The Tybee group is doing a great job on the "play by play". I am having trouble finding out anything about the A-Cat Nationals during the day.

I don't think someones sexual preference has anything to do with it!

Eduard Zaunen had to contend with seasickness and vomiting yesterday and still came in first! Given that dehydration is always a concern, his physical conditioning must be pretty good. And, since he appears to be the oldest competitor on the course, his grit is not in question.

I've never had to deal with that racing around the cans. Got a little quezy once, between races.

Maybe we could put off the discussion about F18 vs. A-Cat sailors until the third week in September as the Formula 18 North Americans will be finished by then. The event is Sept 8-12, 2009. Those planning attendance: Jay and Pease Glaser, Pete Melvin, Misha, all, at least most of, the West Coasters, a container containing as many as 10 sailors will be coming from Mike Krantz place, make sure you contact him to get on board. There will be Tigers, Wild Cats, Infusions, Capricorns and I do not know what else.

Most important to this subject is there will be A-Catters sailing on Formula 18s. I can tell you now, they are good. We have already experienced this at some of our regattas. There are an incredible addition of thoroughbreds entering the Formula 18s this year.

Later,
Dan

Dan,

Yep, that would go a loooong way in settling the argument.

Wouter

I'll take you all on, by myself, with my right arm tied behind my back, after a bottle of rum, on a Wednesday!

rawr!

Damn! After the day you just put in you're still rarin' to go.

All the best.

Way to go Velocity!!!

Who is Steve B?, with 4 posts? God's thoat' reveal thy true self, or be condemned to life with out wind!

Coming soon to a theatre near you "Devils and Deamons" don't miss it. Based on the novel by Tom B.

The A Cat class is loaded with talent from all corners of the world and a well deveoped international class.

The Tybee 500 can't attract the same talent since it is a 5 day logistics intense race. I don't think the question has a objective answer. IMHO.
Eric A

You're all talk. Go to bed Trey.

Trey I am going to take that to mean that you will be here for the event. I will alert the media!

Trey keeps using some lame excuse about being too big for a "toy Boat", so he wont even race against us here.

I say he's scared

Me too.

I would LOVE to have a bit of time on an A class. Anyone what to lend me one for a season?

I would sail an A cat to find out just how much I suck apparently, but I can't even compete with these "hacks" so what do I need to go blow $30k on a new boat for?

Tad, Hang in there! You may not be winning the race, but you are doing a fine job! Keep it up. Go Velocity!

I've got a spare A in the shed you could borrow. However the convict passages from the Old Dart ran out the century before last so you'll just have to spend 20 hours flying out.

Cheers
John Dowling
AUS 9

These are the final results:
http://www.tybee500.com/results/1/original/09_tybee_results.pdf

I still don't think we have found a good explanation why the F18s did so well.
I heard some people mention the light conditions but the F18 is not known for its light wind performance (not more than the N20 anyway).

Any ideas?

In no real order....

The F18's did have the better of the angles as at times they could carry their kites and the 20's could not.
The ratings are 7% different (roughly) and how much MORE talent does it take to get the last 10% out of the boat? A fair bit. How much MORE talent does it take to get the last 5%

And finally, and I've no idea if this might be real, but routing. Did Mischa sail shorter distances as well?
Shame all the boats did not have trackers, it would have been interesting to see the real distance travelled by all boats.

It's all about the sails.

First of all... the spin's were blowing up.... This is just unbelievable and obviously... very tough to compete with holes in your sails.

Our local team Pirates of the Chesapeake, got a new mainsail for the race... It was so full that the guys spent days trying everything short of tearing it up and rebuilding it. Maybe the more Nacra 20 centered Tybee sailors had some magic for them but I doubt it.

The spinnaker has only one gear. The F18 spins followed up on the Tornado development and are much better then the One design shape of the N20.

Both boats are 400 lbs, and 8.5 feet wide.... so... you would expect the one with the bigger motor to win in light winds seen this year... Since it's not even close... look no further then the sails.

World wide... you have F18's, F16's Tornado's, Marstrom 20's all open to sailmakers.... Only the Nacra 20 class continues with the SMOD model. Now we have a lot of evidence showing us the problem for the sailors who spend their money on lousy sails.

I'm catching up here slowly...the F18's did so well because it was a whole lot of tight spinnaker reaching. Their sail plans, spinnaker shape, and lesser sail area than the 20's allow them to point a little better and with a little more speed with the spinnakers up than the 20's. That's why the F18's did so well. For the periods that the wind was light and the angle set for a deeper spin run, the 20's would take off like rockets...but it wouldn't last for long as every day saw the wind clock east leaving a tight spin reach and the F18's stretching into the distance. I've never seen the race with this same breeze day after day....it was nice (except for the crew's hands).

In this case it's a half marathon

Interesting thread...
Having raced against most of the above mentioned in both acat worlds and tybee formats (although at the back of the pack and usually just seeing the acaters at the start and if they lapped me ), I have several thoughts:
1) all the above mentioned are awesome sailors, its like saying whose better, the beatles or the rolling stones. They are both great, but different.
2) In general the tybee is a younger mans race, the acat is a boat that you can stay with as you mature both intellectually and physically. The acaters by virtue of their longer careers will in general have longer resumes in which the earlier entries will include distance achievements, and no doubt todays tybee champs will likely evolve into an acat equivalent format as they mature.
3) That being said, the tybee is about endurance and maintenence of the "groove". Every second literally over 7 to 15 hours that you can't quickly refine and hold that boat at max efficiency, you will lose ground. I don't care if your hungry, thirsty, tired, gotta pee, got salt water or suntan lotion in your eye, your hands are cramped, you don't feel good, your nose itches, whatever, you gotta focus like a razor every minute, no break. Whoever can do that the best, the longest, is gonna win.

The acaters however will know more about finessing their one sail and everbalancing their very sensitive boat while maintaining the visual chess game of a quickly changing playing field, and will have very well honed mark rounding strategy and start strategy (and finishing strategy).

4) So one person can surely excel at both but maybe not at the same age or stage of their careers and/or have time to simultaneously hone both edges to stay at the top of both efforts, though there is heavy crossover in skills obviously.
5) I think we are all trying to find one boat that we can all buy (afford!) to compete on and compare ourselves with in both distance and bouy formats. Currently this is trending (strongly) to f-18 and we'll see more people pursieing the Mischa and JC patterns and exceling at both formats on the same platform.
6) Then we can hold the acat vs f-18 mega sail off in boat swapping alter cup format in a month long series in Pensacola.
7) Trey has to sail with both hand tied behind his back.

Ok whatever,
humbly,

Nice, perfectly stated!

You really can't sum it up better than that.

Well said! It is very different kinds of racing.

The Cat has stated this predicament rather nicely. Since there seems to be some "Age Bashing" coming up, let us state that at the A-cat NA's just finished: There were only 19 Regulars, 14 Masters (50 to 59) plus 9 Grand Masters (60 to 73 wonderful years of age). Yes, the top several were regulars. Live and let live say I.

Tracy Oliver is an excellent distance racer, and I wouldn't call him "second tier" nor most of the other names on your list.You must have a pretty small first tier.
Besides this is an asinine comparison. I do both, and they are about as different as you can get.You just as well compare Matt Struble to Lance Armstrong.
Tawd