Why the Tiger rocks at distance racing

Check out this picture from the last day of the Tybee 500.

You can't do that to a Nacra 20 or Infusion mast without folding it - but the Tiger mast takes this punishment in its stride. 16:1 downhaul full on, Mast rotated back, main sheet cranked. That mast is bending off to leeward like crazy spilling air and letting us carry the kite 15 degrees higher than an Infusion can. You can use the downhaul on the Tiger like a rudder - keep the hull flying and vary your heading by 15 degrees by putting it on and off.

This is why I love the Tiger - it is tough as old boots. The rudder failures on Carrie/JC's Tiger were where someone had converted an older boat to the new rudders with the gudgeons spaced out. The bolts used were too small and kept shearing off. We've got the latest stock system - no issues.

Chris.

This spot for rent.

only because this discussion can get interesting.

I'll have a go.....

There is no difference to the height or speed you can sail an Infusion, tiger or capricorn with a shy kite. The method used on each boat differs but the outcome is the same.

So what is the secret for the wing mast boats then? There are some Infusion sailors who would like to know. I think one team tried a few settings on the last day of the Tybee that resulted in a folded mast.

That mast looks so wrong, but it sure does look like the boat is flying. it was a N20 that dismasted on the last day, all the f18's finished.

Dazz,

It was an F18 Infusion that dismasted - Team Mooseburd. They jury rigged the boat using a spin pole as a mast to fly the kite. They sailed 35 miles like this - finishing after dark. I took a look at the jury rig on Sunday morning. They carried the folded up mast on the tramp back to the beach. It creased up to an acute angle between the spreaders and hound.

The Nacra 20 that failed to finish suffered a failure in the cross beam attachement in the hull. I heard the plate tore lose from the glass. This is the second failure like this I've come across. I repaired Team Poison Girl's hull in the rear beam socket 2 years ago on the Great Texas race. This could be a good place for owners of high mileage Nacra 20s to inspect for stress cracking.

Chris.

By the way, I'm not talking about sailing for max VMG on a windward-leeward course - I agree there are lots of ways of skinning that cat and it varies boat to boat. I'm talking about spinnaker reaching while distance racing - the ability to make the kite work for as long as possible on a close reach with building wind.

As long as you have the rotation off and enough mainsheet tension to support the mast its all good. I cleat the mainsheet in this position and then play the traveller car to control angle of heel if I am trying to sail a high lane.

You can carry luff tension, but I wouldn't carry full max luff tension (its slow anyway). You need to balance the sail plan and if you are trying to depower the mainsail so much then you are usually carrying too much drag in the rest of your sail plan.

There is a crossover between shy kite and 2 sail reaching. many will be surprised that this occurs earlier than you think, So my advice is: if you are struggling to keep the boat upright with a shy kite and two on the wire, you are very close to that crossover.

Also, you need to run the kite halyard lower if you want to sail a high lane.

Over the last few years I have done some pretty silly things with the Infusion mast in some quite extreme conditions and I am yet to break one. and not for lack of trying!

Chris, I will stand corrected.

Chris:

The videos of you on SA were amazing!!!! The outboard boat could not catch you, LOL You made TCDYC proud. There will be a day when you win it.

Way to go,

Doug

Well done Chris, nice looking sail as well.

I felt a bit sorry for the N20 who's spins all fell apart, not something you want on a race like this (or any race for that matter!).
Wonder what the result would be had they been sailing the new Wildcat, with its higher volume of would probably been even better at the the light stuff.
Looked like JC/Carrie where carrying a Wildcat spin though.

Thanks for your advice on painting sails Tony - it worked out really well.

Misha had a Wildcat spin - I didn't notice if Carrie/JC were using one as well.

Painted sails, now that is interesting!
Is the sail in the picture really painted? Wow! Any information to share, like cloth in the sails, how to clean them, how to apply the paint and what paint to use? Durability?

It was a Mylar sail painted with automotive paint with a plasticiser added (the same type of additive they put in the paint when they paint plastic bumpers and what-nots). They've had some trouble with the solvents in the paint weakening the stitching in the sails - but seem to have resolved that.

I'm convinced that the tight, double trapped spin reaching is what might have caused the spin failures on the N20's. I know that we really had that thing cranked in all week.

Clean asked Pattison what going on with his sail, here is his response:

"At this point I really don't know too much about it. I did get a call Friday afternoon from a person that told me it had happened. All I can tell you right now is that we switched the tape we use on them a few years ago after one sail failed with the old style tape. Since switching we have not had any failures, however it is obvious from this regatta that this tape is not strong enough either. We will certainly stand behind any of the sails that failed.

In the mean time I need to get more information on those sails so I can trace back to when they were built and see if they were all done with the same batch of tape or see if there were any other similarities or differences. If you have one of these sails please call me at the loft on Monday. I will need to know the serial number that is stamped on our logo on your sail.

Harry Pattison
Elliott / Pattison Sailmakers
949 645-6697 "

I'm going to find out what he plans to do about the head of my spin that pulled out.

Did the luff tapes tear? Do the N20 spi have a luff line inside the tape for trimming?

Any pics of the damage to the spis?

The tapes held on mine. I think on Todd's they tore.

My hole started small, so small that I didn't notice it until I saw a weird reflection on the jib coming from behind the spin (which should have been blocking the wind) Over time it got bigger and bigger until it stretched across the whole mid-horizontal seem and down to the middle snuffer patch.

Two days later, during a double trap spin reach, the head grommet pulled out of the chute.

While they are addressing the issue of quality, they should be made aware of the size differences as well. I was told there has been as much as 18" difference in luff measurements. I'm glad I had the inclination to have mine totally stiched before the race.

That's quite amusing. Did you gather all that info from your computer or out on the water with us?

All tape separation, no tear in anything except the luff tape from load.

"I'm going to find out what he plans to do about the head of my spin that pulled out."
Most likely nothing, I had the same thing happen in my last Worrell and that's why we had reinforcement straps on every corner.
Tawd

Even tho the spin is barely a year old?

So was mine, when it pulled out.I use the gromett for a keychain fob, an expensive keychain fob.
This year's was hoisted for the first time in Islamorada.

Flumpmaster,
I have a print pic of my I-20 mast coming in at a Worrell finish that looks the same. I can't find the pic ,but when I do I'll post it. So they will take it, show some respect.If it wasn't for the Nacra 20 there would be NO Tybee 500 for you to have participated in.
It was good meeting you this week.hope to see you soon.
Tawd

Reinforcing the grommets has been standard fare for us for several years - this is the first time I've had a seam come apart...but at least most of the entire fleet had the same issues. We'll add stitching the seams to our prep list in the future.

I don't necessarily think it was the tight reaching - sure, that puts some extra stress on the sail but ours let go on the day we were running deep in 12 to 16 knots of breeze after already holding up for 50 miles or more on the same angle of sail.

It sounds like EP will graciously take care of the problems - it sucks that several of us had the issues we did but it's not much different than in NASCAR when they get a bad tire compound with their supplied tires that results in a lot of flat right front tires. That's racing.

I can't comment on durability beyond 500 miles with a fair amount of double trap reaching - but so far so good. I got the idea from the Dutch sailors at the Tiger Worlds. Tony got a few hints from the guy who paints his sails - after that it was down to experimentation with some squares cut from a wrecked main before I pulled the trigger and sprayed a nearly new main. I finished painting it the evening before we left for the race - just enough time to put on the graphics and throw it in the bag. It still smells of fresh paint!

I will post a how to once I have decompressed a little - I think this is a super cool thing to do - it brings back the vibrancy to the sport of the original colored Hobie sails - but you can do so much more with paint and vinyl. This is something the public really identifies with.

Be warned though - this is a lot of work - requires a modicum of skill spraying and the paint involved is 2 pack urethane - so air fed full face mask and a suit covering all exposed skin is the order of the day. Do not try using Krylon fusion - we tried - it does not adhere well to Pentex even after keying the surface. My materials cost for painting the sails was around $400 - $450 (3 quarts of paint and some rather expensive additives).

Chris.

Spot on Chris!

-Todd

Not knowing anything about the N20 class rules: cant you guys buy a spin from Nacra Europe (read: Performance Sails)?

Atually, I get that info from a number of long distance races on the infusion, against tigers and capricorns.. races such as round Texel and a little race called the Archipelago raid...

A how-to would be great, and I totally agree that sails like yours is a splendid addition!

Hey Chris,
How 'bout using some lead paint next time?

Tawd

How many Archipelago raids have you done? Looks cool.
Lee and I are gonna come do it on a little boat called an RC 27.Maybe a 22 if we can drop a little weight.

Painted sails are nice but from my experience of them they add a fair bit of weight. Mischa at Eurocat told me his black Bulthaup sails are 2kgs heavier than normal sails.

Nope, Mischa closed that loophole back in 2007 when he chartered by boat

Suggestion for modifying this thread's title:
"Why the Tiger rocks at predominantly close reaching distance racing"

;-)

Or to stop a **** fight
"why do F18s rock at predominatly close reaching distance racing"

My point exactly Mike.

• In the US the 2 most challenging long distance races are coastal, and run at a time of year when a thermal sea breeze is quite likely to develop.
• This is why being able to close reach is important - you are not going to be sailing close hauled or on a dead down wind run if you are tracking paralell to a long, fairly straight coastline in thermal sea breeze conditions.
• This is why the F-18s have an advantage over the Nacra 20 in this type of condition.
• Anyone seriously suggesting maxing the downhaul and rotating the mast back on a wing mast rig when double trapped in 15 knots of breeze? The result is likely going to be expensive. An old school mast of equal cross sectional weight can be made stronger in the minor axis than a wing mast - and hence you can get away with making these moves on a Tiger rig.
• Max down haul / rotated back = spilling a lot from the top. This depowering is in addition to raising boards, traveling down a little etc.
• So the Tiger has an extra trick in the play book when depowering in wind conditions that are reasonably likely to be encountered at some point in one of these races. The wing mast F-18s will have to drop more traveller earlier. This eventually leads to the transition where 3 sail reaching no longer pays because the slot at the back of the kite is pinched off when you are travelled down a long way.
• She/he who can keep the traveller more centered for longer when reaching with the kite will be faster and will make the kite work for longer before having to drop it and jib reach.

I'm not suggesting an F-18 is going to be faster than a Nacra 20 running down wind in huge air. I would suggest that on average it may be better suited to coastal distance racing with reasonable sea breeze (reaching conditions). Which conditions are you likely to see on average on these races?

Chris.

There have been some years that were upwind for almost the entire race. Others have been downwind much of trip, while others saw an extreme variance. Don't you know it's all about Al Gore, the Intarwebs, and global warming? Trying to assign an "average" to what you're going to expect in regards to wind is useless. Leave that one to God. Or ask Forest Gump.

Did Al Gore invent "upwind" ?

Our box of chocolates melted the first day.

But the salted pop tart shake was awesome.

On a wing mast, Chris, you release the cunningham to run and reach. The technique is different and I didn't learn it until the 2008 F18 Championship. I think as that technique dessiminates through the fleet, you'll see less mistakes made. I consider the wingmast an advancement in boatspeed and in sail tuning. I do not consider it a step backward in durability.

Bring the breeze a little more forward to a jib reach and the 20 will EAT the F18's.

Really, because I have not really seen that in racing. The N20 maybe more dive resistant but in capable hands the F18 sure doesn't seem to reach any slower then the EU N20's. Of course if there is one course where a tall mast or (even) more sail area doesn't count then it must be the beam reach. See the Hobie 16 design for details.

As far as I can tell, but please correct me, the N20 has two sweet spots and that is downwind spi sailing (especially in rough conditions) and sailing in light winds. Although in the last case the performance difference to the F18's has gotten really small due to better sail development in the F18's.

Upwind in normal conditions and even the F16's keep up with the N20's. Or at least I do whenever I find the time to get on my boat and we all know that THAT says something. Also Matt McD. kept up with JC on the N20 a few times. Personally, I have a few tales about sailing through their lee's even. Upwind the N20's don't have much at all or at least in my humble experience.

Now, I don't really have a dog in this fight but it does appear that the F18 has a more alround performance profile and may be the preferred choice for any distance racing if the wind conditions are not really known in advance.

Wouter

In my opinion the quality of the EP sails are not very good. We had the head pull out of a brand new I20 main during the Steeple Chase causing us to retire on the first day. The trip to the regatta cost so much and was wasted with using such poor quality EP sails. We have never had a sail fail on any of the Infusions that we have owned with the performance sails. EP does not sew in any straps like the Performance sails you have to do that on your own and now it sounds like you have to have your kite stitched. It seems like you have to do a lot of work to brand new sails if you buy from EP. EP has known about the grommets pulling out for years but yet they still don't sew straps in there sails.

I take it all back.

Oh Dazz man... that my friend is clearly an Infusion with a folded mast.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_F9j0NIV9-EA/ShTGab-6dFI/AAAAAAAAA20/9_FuqEQvH38/s1600-h/DSC01660.JPG

Dave,

Go easy on him - they only sail their crude locally produced catamarans in the colonies and have only read about such thoroughbred machines as Infusions on the Internet :P