Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!

I figured I'd start a thread for all the haters to post tripe about the venerable Nacra 20, since it seems to be the fashionable thing to trash on it now.
Chuck all ready had the first post at the awards.
Fire away!

Huh, what? Someone is going to have to pry my Nacra 20 tiller out of my hands cause I'm not planning on letting go anytime soon. I love that boat (I missed the awards ceremony so I could pick up our dog at the Kennel before they charged me another day). What happened at the awards?

There just happened to be a lot of weather this year that really favored the F18 - so what? That's why I don't think handicap scoring a race like this makes sense if the fleet is large enough to be scored by class.

Chuck expressed the motion to "phase out" the Nacra 20 from the Tybee and make it F18 only.

OR...you could start a "fix the F18 P-number" type thread.

I knew I shouldn't have taken you off the ignore list.

I talked to Chuck after the awards re those comments. The bottom line is this, as long as we I-20s keep showing up in numbers and supporting the race, we are going to be in it. So that part is up to us. The other thread of this argument is how do we get Nacra to open up the sail plan (as it apparently is in Europe) to make us more competitive and sail design evolves, and or hold Elliot Patterson more accountable for quality control it this is in fact a real issue. I do agree we all put alot of extra stress on our spins this year with our tight double traps as we tried to follow the f-18s upwind, and this could certainly have led to failure.

So how do we open up the I-20 to box rules for sail design???

Man, you are quick! Just throwing some love atcha Davey Poo! Take it as the joke it was meant please.

I've got an idea, since both Mishca and JC have won this race on the I20, ASK THEM which boat they think is faster. I'm certain if they had both been on I20's this time they would have come in 1-2 no matter how many f18's you put in their way. Of course, due to their current sponsorship status, they probably can't tell you what they really think.

Call me.

Oh. Great. I sure am glad that Chuck sold us that 20 last year.

Personally, I see a big fat cart sitting in front of a horse there - until you start to run out of boat slots, why would you even consider such an announcement? Do the F18's not like to race with 20s? I hope next year will be another good year - but I wouldn't be so sure of myself that this year's good attendance wasn't an irregular happening (which was definitely based on the efforts of a few of the sailors themselves). If they're back to 8 boats next year because the 20's feel like they've been mistreated - what are they going to do then?

When is the Great Texas?

We get together as an owners association and start controlling our own destiny, instead of letting the "Class Assoc." (jack, mark Biggers, Skip Elliott,) keep gouging and jerking us around.Since Performance was bought by Euorpeans, they don't seem to have a care in the world for the N-20 anymore( no viable F-20 class in Europe) , except to jack our prices to the sky.

Any N-20 owner's that have an interest in this should PM me with contact info, so we can at least get a database of owner's together.

Larry,
Chuck's got an agenda, history repeats itself. This exact situation was where the Tybee 500 was born.Now he's acting exactly like his nemesis and the end result is bound to be the same.

Todd Hart

I think building an owner's group and starting some discussion is a good idea but let's not jump to any conclusions on sails, manufacturers, parts, etc. There are a lot of pros and cons with any change of that nature.

My thoughts on the subject are over at velocitysailing.com


Anyone trying to contact me today, please be aware that the Atlantic claimed my cellphone this week. Even waterproof hardcases are no match for this race. I'll try to get it replaced today.

$187 for a snuffer sock.Just the frickin' sock!
$28 for a gudgeon bolt
$11,000 for a mast
12 sails checked in with the race committee to be replaced.

If I'm jumping to conclusions it's not a very big leap.

Just remember the fate of the 6.0NA.

Conclusion is there has been a recent spinnaker issues that EP is well aware of and (so far) seems very willing to address. Pricing is a problem. An owner's association can work with the manufacturer to bring all this back down to reason.

All I'm saying is that unleashing a bazooka on the current class rules (although it would feel good) may not be the only solution.

All you guys with blown chutes (like me), please get in touch with me. EP's offer of "fixing my chute and stitching the seams" is not going to cut it.

velocitytrey (at) gmail.com

I'm glad this thread is going and that folks are thinking about working as owners to get to the right solution, whatever that is. The N20 is a great boat and it needs sails that match the boat's capabilities.

I was disappointed in the kite breakdowns and felt they were undeserved. I've sailed on a lot of boats, and the way we treated our kite was no different than hard racing on any boat. The new "Ronald McDonald" kite (whose coloring I grew to like in the videos) that Tad and I sailed was so much more unstable than our old one. The sheet loads were much higher. We didn't realize how good the old one was until switching back to it from sailing with the new one for a few days and suffering two failures. The new kite was good at a lake, but not on Tybee.

I sailed Trey's new blue kite a bit after the final finish on Saturday and was impressed by it - it seemed to be somewhere in the middle between our old one and new one.

That kind of variance is not good for a high end performance boat.

I think people really need to realsise something here.

Mischa Heemskerk won the race not a F18, Mischa is one of the World's best cat sailors, and through my reckoning he would of won it on a 20 or a F18. The sailors are the most important thing on a boat.

If you really wanted to ask Mischa i am sure he would give you his unbiased thoughts to which was best because he is one of the most genuine guys i have met.

Maybe we all ready did!

This thread is not about Mischa or an F-18.
Your right he is an extremely genuine, intelligent and funny guy.

One more demand for change
The Pirates of the Chesapeake way in!

I just ordered a new sock from ahpc... 145 + shipping.... my old one is about 1 year old.... and shredding! It was made out of mylar sail cloth... not sure why. this new one will be under a tarp. i have learned.

Let's hold off the lynch mob heading for EP for just a little while - they seem to have had an honest quality issue with the glue on the sails and have expressed an open willingness to deal with the issue. Besides being a little extreme, if we continue down this big negative loud path, it could actually inhibit an agreeable resolution.

This kind of thing is NOT that uncommon. As was recently relayed to me by another Tybee sailor, a similar thing happened with Melges 24 spinnakers made by North Sails some time ago with them blowing apart at a steady pace at a North American or World's Championship (I don't recall which).

Give EP a chance to make it right - I'm sure they will as they are a reputable sailmaker and have been making Nacra sails for a loooooong time and I would say that, in general, their quality is at least on par (if not substantially better) than many other manufacturer supplied sails. These things do happen in all kinds of business and technology and while I think it's reasonable to expect recovery on the equipment loss/failure, we should also focus on learning from it and add one more sewing/reinforcement task to our preparation for a race like this.

I own niether of these boats and should probably stay out of it, but the arguement that Mischa or JC would have won on either boat is irrelavent. 3rd and 4th place were also taken by F18's with two more in 7th and 8th. The conditions being better for an F18 with its closer reaching ability under spin is a much better arguement.

Just curious, did all you guys dry the spin after every race and take it off?
I've heard that prologned exposure to water can have a bad effect on the glue.

No, we leave them in the sock. This is my 5th Tybee 500, and I've followed the same practice for the other 4 with no problems.

I've had nothing but good experiences with Skip Elliot and his sail loft. He's always done right by me. Sounds like he is willing to look at this issue. I've been using and abusing his sails for years and I've been very pleased with their durability.

I do think an owners association is a good idea. However I would be against opening up development on the sails. That is one of the reasons I chose the N20 class. I'm not a sailmaker and don't plan on running to a new cut every year.

I do think it would be a better communication vehicle for the factory to work issues with the owners association. And the owners association to be able to communicate issues to it's members.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005

I think that people are misunderstanding the purpose of this thread.

I think Todd meant this instance of bus-tossing was referencing the comments at the awards ceremony.

No lynch mob, and again this thread isn't about EP. I just got off the phone with Harry and he's being helpful, we'll see how it pans out. He's making an effort to find the problem.
This thread is about the future of the Nacra 20. I'm with you it'll be awfully hard to get me off of this boat. It's more important to me than Chuck and the Tybee 500.

BINGO

Now that is something I just don't understand.

Sure I compared the F18's to the N20's, but only a positive for the F18's. NOT to knock the N20's. Why not have two fleets as was done this year ?

The more the merrier right and both designs are close enough to not run into other problems. As when a Prindle 15 would be entered.

Wouter

6 - F-18s
17 - N20s

It was foolish and insulting for the organizer(?) to make such a comment. Next year the winds will favor the N20s and it will be a different tune. To my knowledge, this is the first year that the F-18s dominated and it is a clear example of the difference between the two platforms just like the reverse all of the other Tybees. Dumb and he probably regrets it now.

Yeah, assuming that the 20's continue to support the race. I'm not saying anything - I'm just saying that I'm tired of feeling like I get kicked in the head for all the effort...not to mention all the energy Velocity put into getting boats on the line.

The funny thing is this; I don't think it has anything to do with what boat is faster / better. They've been mumbling this thought for over a year now and I think it's waaaay to early to even consider it. FIRST; nobody knows that the attendance this year (by either the 20s or the F18s) wasn't a periodic / tidal thing or even a fluke resulting from the collective efforts on part of the sailors (who feel a little insulted now). Second, they haven't reached the maximum number of boats (30) yet - so why would you even start to consider limiting the classes?

Clearly, there's a big push somewhere to see this race with one overall winner scored on handicap. I think this week proved that is a whimsical and silly idea - at least from the water...maybe the spectators enjoyed it? In this kind of racing, scoring under handicap removes the contest from one of skill or ability but places it firmly into the capabilities of the platforms based on what direction and how strong the wind is blowing. Let's call it the "weather lottery" instead of a race.

Frankly, few of the 20's gave much thought about where the F18s were as their capabilities are completely different and we all had plenty of battling to keep us busy within our own class. I raced against Nacra 20s in the Tybee and admired the F18s. I imagine the F18s approached it the same way.

That said, I seriously enjoyed myself on the water with Frank and racing all you other folks. From a competitive standpoint, I feel it was one of the most challenging years so far and certainly the largest fleets I've raced against in this event.

I freaking LOVE this guy... but not in a gay way, not that there anything wrong with that.

Regrets it??? .... I doubt it!

The race is a lot of work and the juice you get in putting this on is in having the top international and domestic teams compete in your race.

From Mike Worrell onwards... they always look overseas and see the Archipelago Raid, Texel, Carnac and the PR that these events generate. Then they decide that the grass is greener!... So... the solution is to convert their race to the F18 class... Worrell tried to get a deal with F18's before he took on the F18HT class in his fiasco. Result= no Worrel.

Heck this year they ran the race as you might in the EU with all boats competing on handicap in SCHRS and then in their one design fleets. IMO....Perfect!
( Hell, The turnout was the best it's been in years... Now... if you don't know the sailor... you root for your flavor of boat).

Why drop the N20's??... Because he still can't purge the uniquely American bias that One Design sailing is the only legitimate and ultimate race!

For the record... on the east coast... note that the F18... still did not make a class of 10 boats in the Tybee... Spring Fever??.... nah... only 9 boats. Steeple chase??... nah... only 2 boats. Tradewinds??... nah only 8 boats. Am I missing a 10 boat F18 event??? more to the point... 10 F18's distance racing. (maybe the Texas race gets to ten F18 boats)

What's really needed is a skilled person who can explain to the public the multiple races going on out on the ocean. Hell, I bet the boy friend vs girl friend story line... or the father vs son story line or even... the david and goliath story of 18's versus 20 footers are much more interesting to the general public then who won the 8 boat F18 race (er... hobie cat to the masses).

The US obsession on one design one design one design will kill us! (and could kill the Tybee quicker then you think)!

Sigh!

If the race is scored only on corrected time, you can count me out.

I KNOW I'm not the only one with this opinion. Good luck getting to 20+ boats full of Europeans.

What the hell was the matter with the way it was done this year? We had the biggest turnout ever and it was FUN RACING! I got to see all my friends from shores near and far, and got to spend a week out on the ocean instead of sitting here being angry at a keyboard.

er...
I said score it like they did this year..

Was that a problem?

What did your keyboard ever do to you?

Agreed. If you do this, boats will have good angles and so the "boat" will win.



Attitude like that will put people off. IF I had the money, I would love to do a Tybee. I looked at doing it a few years ago when Will Sunnucks came over but I could not get all the things I needed in line.



Nothing I can see. We sailors understand the sailing, the "public" were probably more interested in the father vs son, boyfriend vs girlfriend!!!

I should have said ... "ONLY of European teams"

I realize the error of my statement now that I re-read it.

Mark, you ignore the fact that there is a significantly larger sailor base in Europe for these kind of handicap events. You also haven't recognized that we DO have those big handicap races too (Steeplechase / Round the Island / Statue Race) and even those races are seeing relatively low attendance here in the US. Your example of the Archipelago Raid is probably the closest type of racing in Europe to the Tybee (though more grueling) and it IS a strict one design for F18 only.

A race like the Tybee 500 can only support a limited number of entries...about 30. If the one design classes will support it, it makes sense to keep it one design in a few limited classes to keep the racing closer, more understandable, and more relateable for the spectators. Lastly, the sailors who are putting their boats on the beach again and again like it as one design (most of them) - who can argue with that?

You did, however, hit the nail on the head with respect to what I believe these race organizers have in their visions...but they, too, fail to recognize that which is right before them - there are limited teams to draw from in the US and the sailors on those beaches are the ones that are making these races happen. It's a nice lofty goal to get a huge international draw for the race - but the reality of it hasn't ever amounted to anything more than two teams (typically very talented teams mind you...but no more than two in any given year).

It is a large expensive logistical nightmare for us who live only 1,000 miles away and can drag, stuff, and trailer our boats, gear, and ground crew to the start line. I can't imagine what it would take to try and make that happen flying across the pond. One thing for sure, however, if they really do want to see an international draw, the race management needs to start working on shipping container packages, sailing/hotel/transportation package deals, and intend to do a whole lot more planning along the lines of where Worrell was headed.

Perhaps it would be worth someone from the Tybee team talking to the organisers of the Aruba Regatta re shipping boats around. There are (I think) two containers organised from here (both leave from Amsterdam I think). They might be able to give the Tybee team a pointer to setting up a boat shipment plan and some contacts at P+O Ned LLoyd.

You guys are drunk or stoned. What I heard Chuck say was that the 20 had a place in the race as long as there is a fleet, which he intended to reassure 20 owners who had been hearing that the curtain was closing. When he said that maybe the F18 was inevitable, he absolutely was looking into the crystal ball - I agree with him, incidentally. The 20 is headed for the heap... there are other great boats like the Jav, 6.0 and 5.5 there to soften the landing. I'm not being mean - it just happens. Chuck wants international participation to make the event viable - that is a fantasy if you keep the F18 out.

We at TVS offerred this package. The Pirates team took us up on it, and as far as I could tell, were happy customers.

We also helped out Mischa with a bit of his logistics but not in the same capacity.



What we all heard was him saying "I can see this race being F18 only in two years."

I know I wasn't the only one that heard that. A SPECTATOR that was present at the award ceremony expressed to me how she wanted the whole 20 fleet to stand up and leave when he said that!

Whether its a perception/reality thing or not here Jdub, the 20 fleet is definitely reading the writing on the wall, and we're not feelin the bear-hug love dude

I don't think anyone is even close to suggesting we "keep the F18 out" and I too agree that it is the future of the race. However, it's far too early and I think the race should continue to support both classes until, at least, they start running out of beach and hotel resources. It's better for everyone to have more boats.

I can also live with the handicap and fleet scoring but would prefer to see the handicap part toned down a little from the headlines because it's not representative of the sailors and the racing on the water.

So what do you want that is different than the reality that the race is open to the 20 fleet as long as they show up?

[music] R.E.S.P.E.C.T. [/music] for what the 20 has done for the race so far and the fact that it is the only thing still keeping the race alive.

Jake - love ya man, but the 20 didn't do jack for the race. The teams make the race, and the teams have been on several boats over the years. In fact, I would hazard that without the Tybee, MKL and the Steeplechase, the 20 would already be gone.

This can only be settled by "on the water Jousting"... Saddle up

From my post at Velocitysailing.com

Jdub hasn't ever "jousted" in the Tybee.

Not on the water, anyway.

From Grace O'Malley at SA:

"Or since JW was hangin' off his team's boat in 2000, where was that, Kill Devil?? Trying to hold it down, that was too funny.... "

Surely there is proof! "A picture, a picture! My kingdom for a picture."- some ol' dead guy

Jake, you can always speak your mind with me - you've earned my respect. Don't delete posts - you can't hurt my feelings.

Tad - I disagree. The race is run by someone who loves the event and the sailors in it. I guaran-damn-tee you that the boat itself doesn't matter to him. Seperate the emotional attachment - there have been a lot of different boats in the coastal races of May.

Pete - I was ground crew. I have never sailed the event am I'm extremely unlikely to do so. I have enduring regard for those who push off the beach - we're incredibly fortunate they have all come back to us safely. The risk to life is staggering and I have looked too deeply into the maw of that darkness.

I suffer from an over active imagination (or too much caffeine). There was a reference to jousting, I was envisioning you as the trusty squire trying to control the charger.

Speaking of jousting, Seth almost skewered me in the ear Saturday!

from a spectators point of view:

I could care less what boat is sailed... I could care less who wins.... all i care is that there was good sailing.... exciting pictures, some good video is great! overcoming equip failures... and for goodness sake... MAKE SURE THERE IS ENOUGH GUMBO !!!

and once again: for all involved... Hats off!

Jake
I don't think we are far apart... But to be sure... Did you have a problem with how the race was scored this year.
Handicap and in One Design?

All I'm saying is, if you don't have any skin in the game, you shouldn't be pulling any strings. Hush.

Cart before the horse? Making it only F18 will not grow the race. Mischa and crew will not come back if it is only an F18 event.

Don't bite the hand that feeds...

There have been a lot of different people in it too.

This particular one doesn't want to be shown the door on account of the fact that his boat isn't welcome anymore.

Plus, historical data on the Tybee 500 speaks for itself.

The race wouldn't have happened without the N20, and the N20 wouldn't be as alive as it is without the race.

Why are you so content with consigning the class that has served the race so well to the scrap heap in the dead boat society? I hazard to say that you're reveling in it.

Trey - go forth into the world and collect some wisdom. Save this post of yours to teach you humility and the pain of shame.

What ever happened to the follow on 500, The Atlantic 500? It was supposed to allow the competitors who so chose, to continue racing up to the original VA Beach Worell finish, for the full 1,000 miles, scored as two separate events.

I always thought that was a good way to break up the race and might even draw a few more people in for the north half. Is that second 500 pretty much toast?

The "second 500" was called the OBX 500 and completed what they hoped to be the "Atlantic 1,000". Pretty much, the second 500 is tougher than the first 500 in several ways. Not only is course more difficult and the water much colder, at that time you've already sailed 500 miles. It pretty much sucks, but like Tawd, I'd rather run the northern 500 than the southern.

I think the one thing that can be said that we'd all agree on is that the organizer setting the boat is a BAD moved. Let the sailors run what they're happy with and trust...

Just a little historical data for those that care: boats entered. I removed teams withdrawn prior to the start when I had the data.

Worrell 1000
1997 - 21
1998 - 22
1999 - 13
2000 – 18
2001 - 21
2002 -19

T500
2003 – 27
-I-20 – 15
-18HT – 8
-6.0 spi - 4
2004 - 16
2005 - 11
2006 – 9
-I-20 - 9
2007 – 13
-I-20 - 12
-F-18 – 1
2008 – 10
2009 – 24
-I-20 – 18
-F-18 - 6

Again, the organizer (Chuck) said 20s and 18s are invited next year. Chuck did not say he was "phasing out" the 20 - he was repeating an argument he'd been given that the 20 was declining before making the flat statement that the race is about the sailors and the 20 was welcome as long as there was a class of them that wanted to come. Taking the "phase out" part out of contecxt is what has spun this up. Someone should step up and put the pin back in the grenade.

A few facts (in my opinion facts anyway)...

1) You will never get the I20 out of the hands of the mysterious Nacra Class. Many have tried including myself (I had many long phone conversations with Jack about this). So, the fact is I20 owners have little to no control over their class.

2) The F18 is the future of this type of catamaran sailing. Its is. Stop saying its not. I feel for Trey, Foggy, Jake, Jay, and all others that have significant funds invested in I20s, however current short term investments does not change the fact that the I20 class simply does not have the long term potential for growth that the F18 class does.

3) If the race were to switch to F18s today, people would sail them. Just like when the open racing went away people sailed Nacra 6.0s, and when Nacra 6.0s went away people sailed I20s. At each corner there was the normal resistance to what ended up being the natural progression of the sport.


From a media coverage point of view, I think the race is much better off head to head. Catamaran sailing is hard enough to explain to non-sailing viewers. To explain that a boat that (as an example) finished third to the beach won the race because of a rating. Yeah.

I dont care what boat is sailed, I personally prefer the I20 over the F18. I simply believe right now that F18 has more long term potential, and again I think this race should be head to head, and that the playing field should be somewhat controlled as either one-design or formula.

My motivation is to see the race in a format where I might, might, be able to convince a sponsor to cover our costs to film the entire week. This in turn would pull in more coverage, which makes it easier for 1) Chuck to get sponsors and 2) the sailors to get sponsors. Putting on a marketing hat, Id like to see 30 F18s, racing head to head, with top sailors not just from the US, but from around the world, all on boats that have mandatory tricked out graphics covering the entire boat and sails.

Pretty pictures and close racing is what is needed, not handicapped racing!!!

As N20 sailors, we sure know who it should be - and he doesn't like to use a computer. He has our email addresses.

But Brian

The facts on the ground are not supporting the vision.

The original vision that Chuck promoted was a tough week long race that raised the bar over the weekend distance races.... A race for sailors... not a media blitz.

So.. the bullpen of F18 sailors racing in weekend distance races.... not so good.

It all depends on how you spin it... David and Goliath trying to get to the beach first on elapsed is a winning market plan

Two questions... can the organizers do the race on a limited budget.

Can the teams raise the money to fund the race for sailors supported by sailors model.

if one of those can't survive... you have a problem.

It is a Nacra 20 sailor that is stirring this shitpot and is misrepresenting even a conversation that took place today during which he was even further assured that he had misunderstood what was said. What responsibility Chuck has was already accepted and clarified. Even before I saw this ridiculous thread I'd posted on the official site that the 20s are invited back. Take responsibility. You start imagining that Chuck "owes" you something and I think it will be a short ride.

Brian,
Put about 50lbs on your spindly little frame, start looking for a 130 lb crew and still see if your so gung ho about the F-18. It's NOT an option for guys like me,Tad, Trey, or Lee.
So when are you gonna bring those 30 F-18s? There were what 7 this year? Versus 17 N-20s. It's pretty obvious that J.W. has been the little bird in Chuck's ear, now it's looking like your on the other shoulder.
And JW ,I really didn't know you were so forgetful, I believe you were standing in Steudebakers when Chuck jumped on Mike's crate and started this race. He started it because Mike was going to the F-18ht, that sure seems to me that the race was created around the boat.What your saying Chuck said at the awards is NOT what was said and there's a whole lot of witnesses to prove it. Whether your lying ,forgetful, or just didn't hear him properly, your WRONG.

Todd Hart

Mark, your point is well taken, if the race can be maintained on a low budget by both the organizer and the sailors, then there is no issue. Race on.

My understanding is that this model is not sustainable by the organizer. Now, maybe thats just smoke being blown and we will continue on, but thats not what Ive been told. Again, my motivation is to help the race gain sponsorship, which cannot happen without media coverage.

Not that it matters but 160 + 50 + 130 = 340 lbs. Not sure what the issue is with that, Im sure there would be plenty of competition. Not sure why your taking this so personal or feel like you have to insult me to make your point.

Todd, I'm not wrong or forgetful on this point. Chuck keeps his own counsel, and the fact that you were there when Chuck stood up should be proof enough. Right now, this second, you are delusional. When you get back to earth, I'll take the beer and nothing more need be said.

Mark - yes I felt the race was good this year and though I didn't really even consider the handicap ratings, I was happy enough that we did have fleet scoring. I liked having the two fleets but never considered ourselves as actually racing against the F18s because one way or another some performance aspect of the boats was going to be the deciding factor - not my skill or my ability to adjust and manage the wind and sea conditions. I had a great time at the event and thought it was a great fleet - this conversation sure makes it seem otherwise ... but that's not the case.

Brian, you've mischaracterized my position - I actually think the F18 is the future of the race when that day comes. However, I do think it's silly to even think about it now until they show enough momentum to be self sustaining. I also don't believe that there is any significant section of F18 sailors that wouldn't do the race because there is also a Nacra 20 fleet so, again, I don't know why this whole thing keeps coming up. The 20 class has continued to surprise and show up in force while the F18 has just started to dangle a toe in the water after three years of being invited. It's also probable that three of those F18 teams would not have been there had not one of the 20 teams given them the help to put it together.


John, I deleted that post because it didn't really add anything and didn't have time to make one that did. I agree there is a symbiosis between the survival of the Tybee500 and the N20 but I don't think it's fair to say one could have survived without the other. The sailors that own and sail 20s have paid the large majority of the money, blood, sweat, and energy that have kept the Tybee alive. Also remember that one of the sparks that started the Tybee 500 was because the Worrell dictated a boat change that was unfavorable to several teams.





So where do I actually stand? I like sailing with both the F18 and N20 fleet (or any other fleet of significant size). I, obviously, don't think it is competitive to score them on handicap - but it's a relatively minor point in my opinion. I also don't care to hear about either class being excluded because it's just silly for everyone at this point. I also agree that if the Tybee grows to the point that they cap out entries at 30 and have to turn away 10 F18 teams that would have otherwise made it 30 F18 teams, then it makes sense to go F18 only.

What I really have an issue with is all this talk about F18 only now after the effort put forth by the predominantly Nacra 20 sailing teams. I mean, seriously, why even mention it? And before we talk about what was or wasn't said at the awards (I was not there), it has been talked about and discussed for nearly a year now from the authority. The Nacra 20 teams did make a significant impact on this event this and every prior year of it's running and if the Nacra 20 owning teams did not show up for the last 7 years, the Tybee500 would not be here today - we were told as much last year when it was said that the race couldn't survive any longer with 12 or less entries. Velocity, Royal, and Seacats alone built half of the fleet this year and they're all 20 based. These teams (Velocity and Royal mostly) put in enormous effort to bring in the additional teams on their own. Velocity brought in Sailing Anarchy which seems to have generated a great deal of exposure. We did so to keep it alive because we were promised it would die if we didn't so it should be expected for us to feel a little offended when the race starts mentioning excluding our current and favorite boats. While I don't think anyone completely disagrees with the notion, the timing, presentation, and the suggestion that it might be in the next two years is an utterly inappropriate way to say "thanks for helping us make the race survive".

A view form outside.

1, there are a number of teams in the US who have I20's.

2, There are many more F18 is the world. Hang on guys, don;t kill me yet.

3, This year, from the out side, it looked like it went OK with two types of boat on the course. (yes, the SI's might need tightening, but that is not the point here). And the wind-on-course favoured the 18's this year.

4, People from outside the US, I BELIEVE, will not buy an I20 to enter this race. Making it I20 ONLY would ensure no-one outside current ownership group (or charter), would enter the race.

5, If you want the race to grow, you need a boat option that is attractive to non-us residents. This, IMO, menas to grow the race, you need the F18

6, Given the sucess of this year, and a hope of an improving economic situation, I would HOPE you'll get more F18's next year (and keep the same no of I20's).

7, the race limit of 30?, is that because of "beach space" or simply getting 2 flights of 15 thru the surf? Why not 3 flights of 15 or even 4.

8, If the Aruba regatta can get most of the boats in via container, I do not see whay you could not get a container full from this side of the pond, the only issue is shoreside support and trailers / towing.

What I heard Chuck say was that he thought the F-18 was the future of the race, but next year would be the same as this year, and the question of fleets would be revisited then. He did express his dislike of handicap racing, but said that the 20's would be welcome in the coming years if there was a viable fleet. I think that when entries get to the 30 boat cap or class participation falters then maybe it will be time to change the program. What I got from what Chuck said was that the 20's will be welcome as long as the fleet is strong. I think Chuck was looking down the road when he said the F-18 was the future. There is merit in this statement, not just in this race, but in racing in general. Just 2 more cents from someone that was there.

I just received a call from Chuck Bargeron and he said he did not mean what he said. The reason, I assume, that JW knew what he meant was because he told me he asked JW to take over for him because he was "loosing it" from lack of sleep.I think JW just heard more than we did.
He told me that he never intended to throw the N-20 to the curb and as long as we bring enough numbers for a fleet ,we'll always be in the race. Read Larry's/cat in the Hat post .Chuck was quite upset with me for not calling him to verify what he said. I take people for their word , he just said the wrong thing and has corrected himself.
BK and JW, I would love to further the N-20 clas but I would never stick a knife in the back of a rival class to do it. Some of the stuff the two of you said in the above posts sure seems that you have no problem with that. If I was a Squirrel headed midget or stickman commentator I'd be sailing on an F-18 I think they are great boats. I have no beef with the class it's just not suited for my weight but until you start bringing more numbers to the bigger races your just blowing smoke. Check the numbers!
Todd

I hate to do this again.. butt, who is BLR with 99 posts?

I called Chuck as well, and he basically said the same thing that he said to Todd. While I certainly understand that he didn't mean what he said, in my dealings with Chuck, he's always been a guy I could take at his word. Its probably why we were all so alarmed.

Chuck mentioned to me that the only reason he even said anything regarding the future of the 20 is because he fears for its future given the lack of development on the platform. I don't know whether its the lack of development of the 20 class, or the fact that the F18 class is constantly evolving - its kind of hard to gauge the status of a class when measured against a moving target.

BLR is Brett Robinson.

Todd, I've never talked down another class. I walk away from those that do. My view of the 20 and its future are based on the numbers. Good participation in regattas for the last couple of years - a noticable uptic and a welcome sight. Now, how many new ones were built in that time? Say, last year? This year? If you're hanging your hat on those numbers, you'll be asking to borrow my hat in short order. It is a great boat, as was the 6.0. I was very active in both those classes at one time. The 20, unless you guys do something, is headed down the same road. The only "knife in the back" posts I've seen today are from 20 drivers who are after their manufacturer - equally unwise.

The problem here John, is like Todd said... there is no alternative for some of us 20 sailors.

I'm the offspring of man who almost played for the Denver Nuggets. I'm not going to shrink, and finding someone who is 130lbs to sail a 500 mile race with me isn't going to be likely.

Then it is a good thing there is a Tybee 500 and several other races for you. I hope that the 20s keep coming out as they have been. But take it from someone who has been through it - once the manufacturer stops making the flavor you like, there is only so long you can "grow." After that, it is "maintain." Definitely spend time talking with Brian and Ding about the steps they took to try and get control of the class rules - don't repeat mistakes. Get the builder happy and satisfied that there is a market. Trashing them on the internets is suicide.

Now whatever you do don't try and tie this comment to any manufacturer. It is simply as question from an observer.

What about a new 20? say with an updated hull shape and rig?

Would there be demand for it?

What do you suggest?
My thoughts to keep it viable would be to open up the sails. EP or anyone could make them, but the shapes needs to be updated.The only manufacture complaints I've had is about the price gouging.

An Infusion 20 would be great, but with no new N-20s being built, I don't see that happening.

same width?

Us big boys have been wondering that for a while now. The Fox landed in the US like a brick and sunk. I don't think we've seen an Eagle here or any of the other proposed F20 type boats.

The I20 is getting dated.... The M20 is 50k+ We would like newer, lighter, faster, better for the fat boys club. Is that realistic right now? Not really. Here in the US, we're either our own market (see the H20, 6.0na and I20) and that's fizzling out, so now we're becoming a trickle down market from the EU (read F18).

Many of us hoped to see a F20 class start but lack of manufacturer support (i.e. boats that meet the same standard) is a MAJOR hurdle to cross. There have been talks of a US manufacturer producing a boat and we've even talked a/b producing a platform but it just doesn't look viable.

http://savannahnow.com/node/723941

"It's safe to say the F-18s are the future of this race," said race director Chuck Bargeron, a Tybee Island resident. "They are the hottest and biggest fleet around. Even the 20-foot sailors see it coming."

Personally I don't think anything needs to change about the N20 we've got except sail development.

I'm sure that I could think of 15 things that would be near the top of the list of things I would change about it, but the big one is the sails. This years' T500 vindicated what we've been seeing in EMSA for the past two years or so. Sail development makes faster boats.

The problem, I believe, is this..

Last year Chuck sat down the sailors and said the Tybee 500 needed a lot more boats to keep the race running.

This year, many teams worked extremely hard to bring more boats to the line and were very successful.

Chuck used the exact words "phase out" regarding the N20 class. Note: he said next year they were certainly invited.

The problem thus seems to be the agenda and future of the race. The N20 guys are surely not going to carry forth the amount of time, effort, and money they did this year if they are under the impression that they will be swiftly replaced if enough F18s show up. If it is believed that the F18s can bring 20 boats to the line next year then by all means make it an F18 race. Otherwise, as said earlier, don't bite the hand that feeds.


PS: are my statements honestly compromised by the number of posts I have? Are you familiar with the term ad hominem?

I can see the point regardig sail development, the F18 class is a newer generation so it has the upper hand in that.

Interestingly the Infusion hasn't changed sail design since 2006 so its not like a continual evolution, just steps..

It should be possible for a new 20 to be viable, what if the carbon rig was swaped for carbon hulls? then you have a lighter platform, masts have come a long way since the old teardrops so an alloy section would be fine (as seen on the Singapore 20's)

Isnt all this saying you can come if you have a fleet like saying:
You can come to the party, but only if you bring your own crowd?

The hobie tiger came out before the inter 20... if that is what your getting at?

The Tiger has had several updates to its sail plan, I think there have been 3 or 4 mainsail design and changes to jibs and kites. actually the kite sheeting position has changed a couple of times too.

No doubt at all macca, but that is why the tiger can still keep up, if it was SMOD and had the original pin head sail, where would they be now?

SMOD is just about money hungry manufactures as far as i am concerned.

Well, SMOD has its place. But its impossible to have a SMOD class remain competitive in a formula environment like F18.

For a time there were considerations of doing a VectorWorks 20 footer and even a Blade 20. The latter having more width and was intending to use the Tornado rig. Both of which have stalled and I don't see either being launched.

Personally I think that was a smart decision. There doesn't seem to be a market for a new 20 footer world wide (excepting any 20 footer that is chosen as the new olympic boat). The EU F20 class was pretty much killed when the Nacra N20 boats were reformed into the Nacra 20 One-Design class. Hobie discontinued the Fox shortly after or before (I can't remember) and the Eagle 20's are different with each new boat coming of the small production line. Markets at this time are what ? UK and NL and USA, although I think the UK has phased out the Nacr 20 as well. All other important nations like France and Australia simply do not have a 20 foot class worth mentioning other then the Tornado. And the tornado class is very small also.

Any new 20 footer must therefor make a start of its own and that is not in the card in the opinion of the guys playing with the designs like the V20 and the Blade 20. Additionally, the market in NL and USA doesn't appear to be very large at all. Doubtful if it can carry the development costs.

I understand this has nothing to do with a new Nacra 20; it is just background information. And if any manufacturer will do a new 20 footer then it is most likely Nacra as the others have move out of that range or have become convinced that it is unmarketable.

Wouter

Maybe this is a can of sh!t,

but why can't you 20 boys just do like Mr Smyth always did, and come up with a new sailplan and develop your own stuff? Create your own class, as it were?

I cite examples such as N6.0 Express, Prindle 19MX...

Mark Smith has an aftermarket main for his N20... you can do it!

Tami,
Alot of people have mentioned that. However a lot of people involved with the whole Nacra 6.0NA class warn us about being "cut off" from the factory. I certainly don't want to throw the manufacturer out or alienate them. Wouter is correct in saying that the marketplace wont support a new 20 footer - especially since all that needs to happen is the sailplan for the 20 be updated.

You guys make it sound like a conspiracy but it's straight and simple economics. Nacra is building boats on the west coast as fast as they can but they are almost all F18s - that's what people are ordering. For the 20's, as volume goes down, prices go up...I think the mast is a different issue and maybe the other prices have gone up a little more than they should - but it's a minor point and one that Nacra has very little business motivation to deal with since nobody is buying 20s (which started before the price increases).

Soooo what do you do? The only way (only way) classes survive is if you build your fleets and bring in new sailors. You bring in new sailors buying used boats who migrate to new or we buy new and sell down, working the ground, talking it up, and helping people get started. More sailors = more volume = more support from Nacra.

We own the boats so we could definitely open up the sails, the trampolines, rigging, and other soft goods to various manufacturers but we need to ask ourselves if this will help us grow new sailors. How significantly will it also serve to alienate ourselves from the single source of hulls, beams, and masts, etc by making their continued support of the boat even less business effective for them.

I'm not kicking F18 - I really like sailing F18...but as it relates to the 20, it is really the big problem through it's continued success and absorbing a significant amount of the sailor base. As a 20 class, I think we would serve ourselves better by continuing to promote the boat as the "Cadillac of the seas" and the king of distance racing. It does have a niche but I am of the opinion that any drastic changes in the class would only serve to weaken it.

I also don't care that the F18s are faster on some points of sail - so what? I know that when I race you guys in the Tybee that we're all running the same equipment and that I'm not up against Mr Daddy Warbucks, Todd Hart, who might have had a special spinnaker cut for the weather conditions he expected to see that week.

I'm not suggesting inaction - quite the contrary...It will take some energetic people and action, like what Velocity has been doing, to continue the little bit of positive growth the class has seen. Going after the manufacturer only serves to lessen their business motivation to continue support of the class. It's a complex issue.

Thank you Jake.

What I think I'm trying to suggest, is a manufacturer-backed, class-member influenced sail plan update.

I'd love to do exactly that, but as Tad said, fear of being cut off by the factory has that option stalled. The 6.0 died after they stepped away from the factory,but there also was the N-20 to fill the niche. NOW there is no boat to fill the niche, so I don't know how it would go. The factory stopped making 6.0s completely after they divorced themselves.
Parts like cross beams, castings, masts, and cast fittings would be pretty hard to outsource if Performance was spiteful enough to stop making them because we ,as owners, took it upon ourselves to change the boats. At this point I think that we've hit the wall and opening up the soft goods(sails, tramps, bags,) on the boat is the only way to extend it's life.
Maybe Carl Robert's was right years ago when he was pushing hard to go F-20, or maybe it's time has come, but something needs to be done. If we (owners) sit back and do nothing the class will go down. Everyone is predicting it, even though there is no proof yet of a major decline. Alot of the voices that are critical of the N-20 are X N-20 sailors and because they have switched are passionate about their new choice.
I would like anyone who reads this that owns a Nacra 20 to PM me their name, E-mail and contact number so I can at least try to get a contact group and possibly an owners association together. I know Dave Ingram and Brian Karr attempted something along these lines and input from them would be priceless if they are willing to provide it.With Perf. being bought out and the tables changed maybe the outcome will be different, we can only hope.
Todd Hart

Jake I guess you can type faster than me.

Macca,

I was origionally building a 20 and there is one in the shop virtually complete except final fitout and assembly. This was right about the time we got involved with the Blade.

At that time I was making this boat to do races like the Tybee, Steeple etc. The F20 class was making a lot of noise but could never get anyone to agree on what the formula would be, so that died. Chuck told us flat out that we would not be allowed to race it in the Tybee if we built it, because he wanted the race to be 1 design and had committed to the I20 at the time.

Without being allowed in the only major US distance race our customer base was now pretty slim. The customer base for a 20 is then limited to the to the guys who have a preconceived notion that they can not fit on a smaller boat. The group serious about racing cans were finally following the Europeans and the F18 was moving in the US.

I would love to see the 20 class open up and go somewhere. There are several completed designs going already to jump start it but no momentum. There is a base with the F18 and the trends in design really make most of the claims about crew weight competitiveness BS.

It's not BS, and Matt when you sail a season heavy we can talk. I've sailed both ways, lighter is better.

Finally the obvious truth from someone I trust.

Matt, Your 20 project sounds cool, I'd love to see it sometime, but I can see why you benched it.

OK let me rephrase it.

Weight makes a difference but where you place the weight makes a **** load more difference than the amount. (Within a range)

My bitch against the crying on boat size is that most of the claims are by people who aren't that heavy and would be right in the mix in the F18 class in crew weight for example, but stick with the too big claim. I feel it is primarily a carry over from the h16 days where weight REALLY did matter. With the full hulls it is not nearly as big a deal, and watching some of the loudest complainers sailing it is not the weight but the fact they move around like an elephant and are twice as slow in every manouver. A heavy guy who is smooth on the boat and can move correctly and quickly will sail just as fast, if not faster in some conditions than the light team.

Agree with most, the rest isn't worth the trouble debating but we can always talk about over a beer/rummy/whatever is available at KPRR... it's gonna be great!

I think Mischa and Eduard are combined something like 154 kg (340 lbs). Ashby and Bundock were around 160 kg (355 lbs) combined at a time. Never stopped them from winning their races.

I think experience in the F18 class has shown that you can't see a significant correllation between race results and crew weights when you stay in the range 140-165 kg (310lbs - 365lbs). The 140 kg limit is most due to having to sail with the smaller suit of sails.

I don't know how heavy Trey is but I dare quess he and his crew are not above 165 kg (365 lbs)

Wouter

Since you already hijacked it -

How many of you 20 Tybee guys are going to be a KPRR?
3 days and a great party planned, I am really looking forward to it.

M

Now this is the old Wouter. I'm not going this rabbit hole with you.

Trey and Alan are 172 kg (380 lbs), I think.

Tad and Bailey, 400lbs. (181kg)

Chums/Corpus is 420 lbs.

Matt:

Even back on the H-16 days, we were around 310-315 and we beat the lighter guy with superior boat handing/tactics. I agree it is HOW you move the weight than the weight up to a certain point when you are heaver.

Doug

Okay summarizing :

Trey and Alan 172 kg (380 lbs)
Tad and Bailey 181 kg (400 lbs)
Chums and Corpus 190 kg (420 lbs)


Trey and his man can get by on the F18; they are above the fold but not by that much. In a race like Tybee, that 1% difference is not going hurt as much as on a regular congested course. Getting stuck in the surf by more then 4 min compared to your competition will already do that for you in a 7 hour race day. And we have seen more then a few boats get stuck by that amount.

The other two teams, well yeah, they ARE above the fold for the F18 in the way of competitiveness. Still doesn't mean they can't race it and do well, but they'll need a tad more skills to win out over a team at about 150 kg. They must expect about 2.5-3.0% performance diff around a race course.

To put things in perspective, this would amount to about 1 hour and 40 minutes over the recent Tybee if (and that is a big if) the final result is 100% dominated by boat speed. However, I remember Mischa commenting on a particular day that it was mostly about finding the right spots with wind and hardly about boat speed. And either team totalled up a delay of 6 hours to their fellow and first N20 anyway.

But anyway, there is no reason to ditch the N20 so this is all academic anyway.

Wouter

For me its less about the weight, and more about the forgiving nature of the N20.

I don't really need anymore excuses to list for my poor performances, and the N20, so far, has been the one boat that could handle my beefcake the best.

I got no argument for you there.

Wouter

Chesapeake Nacra 20s range from 365 - 450ish.

Todd,

I'll send you an email with the 14 Nacra 20 owners contact info that we have here. Thanks for collecting.

BTW, nice beach landing...you scared the crap out of me. I have a hard time looking at that series of pics. Glad it ended up only with 8.5 style points instead of a trip to the ER!

90 wpm!

I bet if you called Nacra, they would sell you a Nacra 6.0 beam. Are you guys sure they really cut-off the 6.0 class? I never heard anything approaching that.

Todd, what Brian and I tried to do was get a bit more control over the changes that were being released to an OD class, rudders, snuffer system and self tacker and we had zero success. What you guys are thinking about doing is a bit different and I'd think Rick Bliss would be a good source to tap into. Also one of the biggest hurdles you'll run into is apathy. I know the Tybee teams are quite passionate right now but you have a LOT of N20 owners that don't do the Tybee and they may not see the same urgency or any urgency at all. It is an OD class after all, who cares if the sails are dated you're OD and EP has stepped up and appears to be making right by you guys. What you have going for you right now is there isn't another 20 on the market. As Macca and Matt have hinted at if a new 20 hits the market the N20 is the new N6.0 and it will happen over night.

Is your goal in opening up the sail plan for development to sail better against F18’s in the tiny wind band of double trapped spin reaching? If that’s the case why don’t you just create T500 spin rule and leave everything else as is. You can use your sporty flat spins for the T500 and DPN races and your other sails for the OD events. Just keep in mind, if you open up the sail plan you then have the overhead of getting measurement certs, and unless you can work out some kind of in house certification it’s going to be a bit of a pain.

Keep in mind opening up an OD class for development can very much be a double edge sword.

Dingo,

I think making it as simple as possible would be a better solution. Simply ASKING the manufacturer as a class to update the sailplan to a modern shape. This way there's no measurements, no certifications, and the new sails will be filtered in as people replace their OD sails.

I know it sounds simple but you'll get resistence at both ends. You WILL have owners that see absolutly no value in an updated a sailplan for an OD class. Be forewand it's going to be bit more work and frustration than being the Area D North rep.

I really hope it works out for you guys and best of luck.

I love this guy...but not in a man on man kind of way...not that there's anything wrong with that.

Yeah, well its going to take a better personality than me to spearhead any change. I'm not saying I'm the right one for either of the jobs (as evidenced by that left jab there :P well played)

yeah what's a little boot in the nuts between friends :-)

I've had quite a few over the past week. Between you and Todd I'm worried about my ability to procreate at this point :P

Please don't....

My thought (for what it's worth) is that IF they decide to push for a new suit of sails is that you specify ONE sail maker. Make sure you can get sails at or less than what PC or EP charges and that every suit that comes out of the loft is the same. Don't end up like the P19MX with everyone makeing their own sails and none of them measureing in.

Discussions with several lofts would have to happen and then settle on what's best for the class. Going to a completely open program would be terrible. This way you could eliminate measuring b/c you have a "certified" class sailmaker.

Ding ,
Thanks for the help. I spoke with Jack Young today and he recognizes all of my worries, which mirror everything you said. So far on my list I started last night I've got 34 owners and there's many more. Jack said the same thing about sail updates, and thinks that many are content with their old sails. He seems willing to try and help invigorate the class. I'm unemployed (lack of construction work) right now and have a little time to devote to this. I'd love to be racing against you and all the other good F-18 guys ,but I'm not willing to give up my favorite boat ever, to learn a boat that I'd be at a disadvantage from the beginning, until I have zero options. I value your opinion and any help you want to give will be accepted graciously. This stuff ain't my bag, but somebody's gotta do it.
Todd
The new sailing Chinese acrobat.

Ditto +10000

That's what makes you that guy.

How much difference do you think that it would make to the Inter18 if you put an Infusion rig on it?

It would go a bit better but still get slaughtered in an F18 fleet.

As much as i love it, I am afraid that the N20 is the same generation as the inter18.

You may be right, but I don't think it's even close to being maximized right now.
What are the main differences between the Infusion and the Nacra 20 (Hull shape and sail plan)? I know of the wingmast and know that is a benefit for sure, but I and many others would have a hard time taking off a good carbon mast to replace with a lightly tested aluminum mast, until a little more is known. What else? how do the rockers compare? The Infusion makes any boat look like an LR3 (skinny).
I'm just looking for some constructive help not pontification.I think re-building the wheel is fruitless but maximizing that wheel for performance is where we need to be. More importantly the sailors that own these need to sail them, this is the key to building the class.

I hope that anyone who reads this doesn't jump to the conclusion that this class is dwindling ,It's not. at all the big open regattas the N-20 as drawn more boats than any other spin boat.I'd just like to build on that momentum and bump it up a notch.
Todd

Im away for 2 days and I missed the best topic in 5 years of catsailor....Bullswan and Hobie 1616 should take note that this is a sailing website, not a political website. But I bet they dont read the sailing stuff anymore

My .02 There is no "NACRA class", get whoever you want to buld your sails within a box rule. Jack's proprietary rule over the NACRA class has to stop somewhere so we can afford to sail the 20's for years to come. He is not going to stop selling you a a $1000 beam because you bought a sail from someone else. Nor is he goig to not sell you a $12000 mast.
The 20's are getting older, and the demand for parts are going to increase over the years, and he will keep selling you those parts at an overpriced rate.

As a Nacra20 owner, I'm surprised that no one else has broght this up, but my main compliant about the EP sails isn't an outdated sailplan or glued spinnakers blowing up (which sucks), it's the inconsistencies of the sails themselves. I've got 5 different spinnakers, two of which were bought together in 2007. These sails aren't just a little off from each other due to age and blowing out, they are radically different. The 2 new ones that we bought at the same time had luff lengths that varied by 5 inches, the clew positions were different causeing different sheeting angles, on top of that one has an incrediable amount of draft compared to the other. So when picking our spin for this years Tybee, it wasn't a matter of which one we liked best, it was a matter of which one sucked the least.

I've got 3 main sails, two of them are pretty close in size and shape, while the newest one (again bought in 07) has a ton of luff curve forcing me to retune the spreader rack/diamond wire tension everytime I switch sails.

If I could just get an outdated quality sail from EP that was the same cut as everyone else I'd be happy, but when I forced to buy sails from one loft who either doesn't seem to be able or want to deliver quality and consistency, I get rather frustrated.

interesting you mention that...

I had sail #279 and replaced it with sail #501 about three years later. Sure, the 279 had a Worrell and a lot of other races on it, but would it really stretch that much?

I laid them on top of each other, and just the profile difference was notable. To say nothing of the luff profile.

Just a curious observation.

What methods do sail lofts use to verify tolerances? I've never done that sort of thing...

Interesting stuff.
Its a PITA in F18 getting a new sail measured and stamped before you can use it, but the upside is that if it is an odd shape/size, you get to know then and can chuck it back at the sail maker.

WB, Harry told us that the sail panels for the spin anyways, were computer cut.

Most sails are computer cut, the sail maker tells the designer all the details, where the depth and shape is, lengths, curves, roach, type of boat. Then the designer designs it and cuts all the panles out, sail maker then puts it together.
If not computer cut a template is used for each panel for large amount of sails.
Skilled sailmakers can also floor cut one of or the first ones of sails, but that requiers and very good sailmaker.

Yeah, but look at the width of the seams. If the person assembling the sail overlaps a little too much or too little, the shape (and size) changes.

BINGO!

Alec
Kudo's to you and Keith.... Great Job!

Were you ever able to get a better shape in that main sail?

I hoped one of the Nacra experts down there had some great ideas.... (short of tearing the sail apart and starting over).

Mark

I know that no one is really serious about bringing back the Inter18 to Formula 18 racing but I think we would be surprised. With an updated mast and sailplan I think it would fair pretty well. The reason for not trying this is cost. By the time you get to a competitive class legal Inter18 boat you could have bought something proven. We sometimes allow a carbon masted I18 sail with us and they are not bad.

Later,
Dan

I think if you throw a N20 under a bus you need to make sure the passengers are people you don't like. The 20 should be fine.

On a slightly more relevent note. My wifey used to build spinnakers for a loft in SF. It as much art as science, but the consistancy and quality goes up with volume and experience. Her loft (Pineapple)was/is absolutely awesome at building consistant and fast sails for the classes they supported. If EP was serious about building decent sails for these great boats they could and would.

You guys need to revolt and open up the sail making within a measurement rule. Who owns the class / boats, you or Nacra?!?!?!

Herbie,

So far EP has been more than accomodating in their offer to resolve our faulty spins.

As for the sail development... I don't think open "revolt" is going to accomplish much to be honest. Working within the infrastructure already established will bring about change much faster IMO.

Its not like there haven't been changes to the N20 platform before. Snuffer/spin pole, rudder shapes, alum rig (which hasn't yet shown up yet tho) so the precedent is already there for the manufacturer to change things and remain class legal. To be honest, I really like it this way as opposed to something like the laser, where the owners have to have a vote on whether they can put a stupid bungie on their outhaul.

I'm not sure I follow, but maybe revolt is too strong of a word. Many very successful one design classes have the sail making open within a measurement rule (Melges, J22, Etchells, in fact most OD keel boats.. not that I'm a fan of racing keel boats). The key benefits of this are competition amongst the makers to keep costs down / quality up and local service (a big one I think unless you live near where EP is).

But then you have to deal with getting the sails measured in by a certified measurer. There are definitely pros and cons to each approach.

What I noted between the two mainsails I had was
1) the head on the newer sail wasn't as wide as the older sail
2) the leech down near batten 5 & 6 was about 2" different

Also, the battens for one sail didn't fit the same way in the newer sail. I attributed this primarily to stretching. I had to cut the top battens about an inch on the new sail to keep it from sticking out so far...

I figure #279 sail was probably a bit different as well, as that was the earlier generation sail. I think the same was true with the three spinnakers I had (the shoulders looked different, even before they were heavily used - probably just my uneducated eye)

It's good to know that they're computer cut and good quality control.

And whatever the sail cut was or was not, the sail's effect on my performance was negligable compared to my sailing ability...

The contention that changing from one sail maker to open sail makers will necessitate the need to measure the sails is interesting.

In light of the fact that EP N-20 spinakers have different lenghts (as much as 18") and that EP mains have as much as 6" delta in luff lengths, etc., shouldn't all sails be measured to assure everyone is on the same footing?

Is there a site or rule book that outlines the dimensions of the sails for the N-20 class? I know that most other one-design classes have a specific set of luff, leech, mid-girth, foot, sail area and other criteria. Without such a rule, how do we know if the sails are to spec?

A set of rules that states that simply that the sails must be made by a specific sailmaker leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps, the fact that there might not be a specific set of dimensions is driven by the lack of consistantcy in the sailmakers sail sizes and cuts? Just wondering.

IMHO, all sails should be measured by an independent sail measurer to assure that everyone has the same size sails.

Unfortunately ,I think this may be the case. Another advantage of an open sail plan is the cost will drop the second it is implemented, I've heard by as much as 25%. Competition can be a wonderful thing.
EP has been excellent in dealing with the spin issues ,so far, so customer service is there. I just believe that the sail plan could be so much faster. If performance/nacra and EP are willing to tighten up the quality and advance the design then there would be no need to open up the sails. I'm sure they have the ability, it's just a matter of making it happen.

Those are interesting comments. Hobie had the same issue with the 18. In regards to sails the rule book only stated that a Hobie sail was a legal sail and all others were not. When I decided to seperate from the class rules I went searching for measurements to have a new sail made. Guess what, nobody could produce them. In fact when I called the factory the response I got was "if it is a Hobie sail then it is a legal sail". Now I am starting to wonder why this is such a closely gaurded seceret. I began measuring sails from other Hobie 18's on the beach. Out of the 10 sails I measured the luff was only the same length TWICE! The variance on my 10 test sails was five inches. For one design that is unacceptable. Makes it seem more like you are racing "Almost One Design".

ROFLMAO! SM(almost)OD!

You guys are dreaming and I have heard quit a few contrary aruments wihtin this thread.

Price is not likely to go down unless you happen to shop at some local bargain sail maker. To get a "Name brand" sail you are likely to pay even more than for the EP. Not much volume and you now spread it out even thinner so getting a Landy or Glaser to design and then back up a sail plan will not be cheap.

The big complaint here seems to center on different sails not all being the same. Open it up to different builders and you expect those to all be the same? You are now definitely not sailing 1-design.

Not that it matters, but what exactly are people trying to accomplish with this. Now everyone has to pay 20-40 bucks to play officialy with no more unifority to the class concept than you have now.

Not as big an issue as you think. Tornado has open sail makers. Quality/consistency is second to none. As for measurements, this is only needed at class sanctoned events (nationals, worlds etc) and takes about 30 min. per boat. There are ways to stream line the process...something like a class rule that to make a legal sail a manufacturer must certify it measures in/affix a label/stamp before selling the sails. If fraud is a concern, then enforce on site measurement in official/important events.

The reason the I20's have not evolved with current trends in sail plans is precisely b/c they are SMOD. The builder needs to keep his profit margins and without competition there is little incentive carry out sail development.

Matt... You should disclose that you build boats and purchase sails in bulk from sailmakers. Your perspective will be different then a sailor.



I agree with your price point idea. A better way to have descibed the trade off is would be to address the VALUE provided for your dollar.

The major international catamaran classes are Hobie 16, F18, A Class and Tornado. All but the Hobie 16 owners have decided that the best value for their $$$ comes from having a sail rule and having the CHOICE of sailmakers. Herbie reports that the majority of monohull OD classes ALSO choose the Value inherent in having multiple sailmakers.



This is a false choice... unless the sailors are one design as well.... eg same size and weight... you decidedly do not want one design sails. The majority of racing sailors, monohull or multihull interpret one design to mean a measurement rule which restricts the dimensions of the power plant. Historically catamaran builders convinced the consumer that their monopoly called ONE DESIGN SAILS was good for them. The competitive sailing world has mostly rejected this argument.



A red herring argument. The 20 to 40 bucks is going to an independent (from the sailmaker) class member who takes time certify TO THE CLASS OF SAILORS... that the sail rule is followed and the playing field is level. The 20 to 40 bucks ENSURES that the rule is followed to the class!... AND it validates the sail to the consumer who KNOWS he is not only legal for the class... but also he has the largest legal sail he is allowed... Not just one that is 4 inches too short... BUT measures in to the SMOD spec! If your independent sail does not measure in... or is not close to your specs.... the sailmaker fixes the problem!

I guess the bigger picture would be to ask what, specifically, needs to be changed with the current sail plan?

Are the sails to full/flat?
Materials too flimsy/heavy?
Sail life too long/short?
Sail shape unable to be changed by controls?
Is wind/angle performance band too narrow?
Sailplan not adaptable to various sized crews?

Its time some one lightened up!

now if there is going to be some n20's thrown under a bus, then this is the machine we need!!!!

could the new sail plain which is used in europe be used N20-OD? this seems be be a well thought of design
http://www.nacraeurope.com/product.php?product_id=21

If you're talking about the sails in the pics... I'm pretty sure thats the current sailplan since thats Trey and Boog on the boat.

Exactly what I was going to say.... Can't mistake that hair

Besides the fact that is the US-N20, I don't think it's how well thought out the design is that people are complaining a/b, it's the quality and consistency of the sails.

okay. I gleaned from the conversations that the "sail plan" needed to be changed, not just the supplier.

Jay,

I think that the main issues brought up in this thread, other than the initial question about the N-20's future in the T-500, are:

1. Quality and consistency of the current sails is under scrutiny. It seems that the current sails lack consistancy and the situation begs for independent measurement of sails, regardless of who make them.
2. Sail development within the current "sail plan" criteria was suggested. For instance, without changing the sail area of the sails, there is certainly a lot of room for sail shape improvement. The spinnakers can have different entry shapes and draft (amount and placement), leading to huge differences in performance. The same "developments" can be accomplished in the main and jib, as well, through opening up the sails to other manufacturers.
3. Most importantly, some of the owners have expressed interest in becoming autominous (sp?) or having more say in the class.

There are other issues covered in the thread, but these seem to me to be the "biggies".

Steve

Thank you for the clarification.

With respect to point #2, I would suspect changes in the sail shape would be helpful only if it
(1) broadened the conditions that the sail plan is effective,
(2) increased sail plan efficiently in certain conditions,
(3) reduced mfg. costs, or
(4) all of the above (obviously preferable)

I think the N20 was originally optimized as a W/L racer, and has since proved its mettle as a near-coastal distance racer.

Given that those disciplines are so widely different in terms of the sail plan effectiveness, what ONE change to, say, the spinnaker shape would improve the N20 performance in both bouys and distance?

Would a finer entry on the spin be good for high angle reaching in a distance venue, but also reduce the ability to go deep and fast on a W/L course? I'm not a sail designer, so I don't know anything about that...

I think I'd focus on point #1 (quality control) first, before the 'nuclear option' (open source). I can't see the volume of sails needed for the N20 fleet being enough to gain any economy of scale or competition amongst suppliers ultimately resulting in lower cost to buyers.

I'm not even sure that the same sail supplier would want to offer optional sail materials for the class (like pentex vs. mylar vs. dacron on the sail plan), since it would reduce the number of sails constructed in each material, further reducing the sailmakers efficiency and ROI.

Fractioning the already small market base amongst other lofts, each of whom would most likely have to do their own R&D (doubtful EP or PC would share all that with them), and pass those costs to the buyer just doesn't sound like it would reduce costs...

On point #3 (taking control of the class), is this due mainly to the lack of communication between the class management and the owners? It would seem to me that this is the case.

Any thoughts?

I don't think there is as much concern a/b dramatically improving the shape or optimizing it for W/L or distance racing as there is a/b quality and consistancy. If everyone has the exact same main/jib/spi, so long as the shape is decent and the quality solid I think everyone would be happy.

and what would be the best way owners/buyers could 'encourage' this improvement to become reality?

I don't think a revolt to open development would do it....

Why such a big deal about improvements? If it's OD, then who cares so much? Of course, consistent quality means a lot, but will huge improvements start an "arms race" where everyone has to buy a new set of sails to be competitive?

Kind of a baited post,
Of course it doesn't matter to you, you've got your custom made sweetass tiger sails, and I'm sure you'll have custom sweetass wildcat sails. Whilst(how 'bout dat) we poke along with our 15 year old tanbark cotton sails. I'd like to see what we've got regulated and maximized, i.e. get the most from what we have .If EP or performance Europe can't fill the bill or handle the task, which there is no reason they couldn't then we should look into other avenues.I think they deserve the chance at least.EP's been making Nacra sails a long time,maybe they've gotten a little complacent ,it's just time to push for a little tweaking.OD or not people want to go as fast as they can for their money.

The big "IF". When we have to race against an F18 on handicap, it's not fair to do it with old technology sails when the number for the F18 isn't moving much but the sail plan is.

It sucks to finish so far ahead of one that you can't see it on the horizon and see him ahead of you on the line the next day. You can relate.

Plus OD would imply that all the sails are EXACTLY the same.

Seems to me that this is not a current problem... it's been the norm since the class was formed if you listen to the old guard in the fleet.

Snipe
505
Finn
Star
470
j/24
Farr 40
Lightning
Thistle
Tornado
The list goes on and on.
One Designs with multiple sail makers.

Hey Ding! Watch this!


This perfectly makes my prior point and this was clearly illuminated during the last Tybee 500. A strict measurement based handicap system can't accomodate for the differences between an open box rule (like F18) and a strict one design class (like N20). I'm not saying that if the wind was different, that they N20 wouldn't have been the boat to be on...I'm just saying.

I think Jake kind of hits on what I've been thinking.
I've not been on an F18 in a while but I remember how nice the sails on the Tiger are. You know Hobie didn't make those sails, Ulman did. On the F18 if your sails suck, your boat might as well be garbage too. On the 20, there has been no other choice for sails... and no class competition to drive quality in both shape and construction.

Yes Jake you made this point MONTHS ago! But, even a hybrid can't account for a every situation.

So making the event handicap got the 18's on the line and made the event more economically viable but, some of those that lost to the 18's feel they were beat by the number, and this is good, how?. I have a feeling this is why JW moved through handicap results quicky because we all know at the end of the day handicap results really don't mean much and they mean even less on a 5 day 547 mile distance race.

I don't have a rooster in this fight, but I have followed the dialoge and also the race, as many have done.

I thought the rivalry between the fleets was interesting, and close enough that the best sailors prevailed pretty much as you might predict.

Why corrupt a perfectly good One-Design class because of this one race?

You can simply modify the sail rule in the Sailing Instructions and NOR.

Those of us with "dead boats" have done it on our own. When/if you go to an Official Class event, you still can use the SMOD sails.

A race such as the Tybee mandates more durable components and you ought to be able to go outside the One-Design template if it is written into the Race Rules. You don't need to change the class to do that.

This isn't all about the Tybee, it's about the platform as a whole.The Tybee was the crucible and I beleive it opened alot of eyes.

Ding,
How did handicap make the race economically viable? For the organizer maybe.

I was just kidding (sort of) - I really don't care but was looking to divert the thread a little!

I think the system that JW selected had the best number comparison he could have chosen....it's especially difficult to handicap a distance race - as we all know.

I hear what you are saying Todd, but this will kill the class faster than leaving it alone. It has happened over and over.

Even the Hobie 16 has left literally thousands of viable boats in the lurch. By changing the minimum weight and sail shape alone, they have betrayed Hobie Alter’s basic tennent. They seem to be happy with 35 boat NA’s, but they could still get 100 if they had never changed the boat.

The N20 has a very dedicated following beyond the Tybee/distance crowd. Most of them are happy with their One-Design boat. You should respect that and the class will have longevity.

You can and should address the durability issues with the suppliers, but my wisdom says leave the class alone.

If you evolve the boat and leave the casual “bottom of the fleet” behind, you will have some pretty good sailors finishing in last place in 10 boat NA’s.

Yes for the organizer, I'm also assuming that more boats is better to a point.

What the heck are you Carolina boys doing surfing the forum on a holiday weekend? I have an excuse, it's raining buckets here with no end in sight. What else am I going to do, I already shagged the wife.

Just finished installing powered attic vents....much fiberglass in arms. Sailing tomorrow (it's drizzly here now).

I'm in Alachua and it is sunny and breezy, but the boat is in Carolina. If I can get enough done here next week I want to get to Keowee.

Jack,
I'm not sure where your getting the info from all the "content" N-20 owners, but as of the last week I've had ALOT of correspondence on alot of class issues, from what I've seen it's split . You can't compare the N-20 to the h-16, there's a world of difference. The n-20 is primarily a distance racing machine, it's a very capable marks racer. Not being a N-20 owner your looking at it from an H-16 point of view, which doesn't work.
The status quo will not keep the N-20 growing. No one has a plan, this is just a sounding board, right now. Sounds like your pretty out of touch with what's happening in the N-20 class. The casual bottom of the fleet are where they are going to be whether the hardcore racers get new sails or not. The nationals all ready are in the teens as far as racers go, and your solution is to do nothing and the class will flourish. One thing lot's of folks seem to overlook is that when other 20' boats classes died there was something there to fill the spot. There is nothing to replace the N-20 right now, and I don't see anything on the horizon(read Matt's post).When the 6.0 died it wasn't because the N.E guys opened up the class it died because the Inter 20 replaced it, for better or for worse.Big guys can't be competitive on the F-18, the need for the N-20 is there.

You are certainly on top of it Todd.

My coments are strictly my opinion and should be considered only that.

If there are no "bottom feeders" to worry about, then full speed ahead..damn the torpedos.

Guys,

in the UK, 20 years ago, Reg and Rob White launched the Hurricane 5.9. Some years later, Rob, Muself and a few others started to plau around with Asym kites on the boat - this was the days when the kite was in a bag on the tramp.

We then moved to pole mounted chutes

THeu then moved to self tacking jibs

Finnally the class (AS A CLASS) is moving to a new mainsail plan.

ALL THIS WAS DONE WITHIN THE CLASS!!!!!!

THe class has evolved with time.... I FEEL the N20 needs to do the same.

Isn't this whole thread dedicated to why a smaller boat can beat a bigger boat across the line? The N20 sailors say they were not racing the F18 sailors, but I BET the F18 sailors are racing the N20 sailors (this is documented in this thread, by the way). People on shorter boats have a reason to to try harder to beat the bigger boats (Napolean syndrome).

I think Performance shoud invest in an upgrade strategy for the mast and sail design for the N20 - similar to what they did with the F17. It is too soon to tell if the F17 fleet is divided over the upgrades - it it is a perfect experiment of a SMOD making changes to keep up with the fleet. Some think it went flawlessly and others thinks it stinks....

I LOVE the N20 as a big boy boat an wish it thrives. I one day aspire to be big enough to have one!!! Otherwise some other 20 footer will supplant the N20 as the distance racer of choice (that statement is compliment to the N20 and its design).

I agree, but it's time! I doubt very seriously I'll be capable of sailing an N-20 in 20 years, that's a snail's pace of evolution. If anyone would go back and read this whole thread, they'd see that we're trying to work within the class association first. So far the factory has been receptive to ideas, so there is no reason for a "revolution" hypothesizing the what if's is all that's being done here.
The first step is getting a cohesive owner's association together, we are well on our way on this step. From there we can approach the issues as needed with input from the ones who count THE Owners.

[quote=Team_Cat_Fever The first step is getting a cohesive owner's association together, we are well on our way on this step. From there we can approach the issues as needed with input from the ones who count THE Owners.

[/quote]

CORRECT
the current owners are you priority and you are doing the right thing by contacting them. Some of the strongest classes are rubbish boats but they are pushed along by a good owners association. [Not that the N20 is a rubbish boat by a long way]

quote/Isn't this whole thread dedicated to why a smaller boat can beat a bigger boat across the line? The N20 sailors say they were not racing the F18 sailors, but I BET the F18 sailors are racing the N20 sailors (this is documented in this thread, by the way). People on shorter boats have a reason to to try harder to beat the bigger boats (Napolean syndrome).quote/


I bought Napolean when I was trying to grow dreadlocks in high school. Tshan, Like I said in my post you "documented," I would do the same thing no matter what boat I was racing. What part of that sounds like Napoleon Syndrome?

Don't take my post the wrong way HillbillySplice. You boys have fun with this project.

Why is this N20 group surprised that this is happening is the real question!Just keep sailing because it is going to take years no decades for F18 to make a dent in this economy..

Who said anyone was surprised?

Euroneck,
If you want, this hillbilly can fix your rudders so they don't break and teach ya which side of the line to be on when the gun goes off. Only for you, don't tell nobody.

For our little bits of input - we sailed at about 420. We both dropped weight for this race, we possibly could get down to 405-410. Not having sailed an F-18, it's still hard to conceive that the weight would not be an issue. Even on the 20 you can feel it.

There are simply no F-18s where we sail. We've got A-Cats, N-20s, and F-16s.

Consistency and quality in the sails would be nice. Example conversation as we tried to get the main looking right - "you guys need some more spreader rake to take the belly out of that sail, you should be around 1.75"" "yeah, but we're already at 3.25 inches" "hmmm, good luck with that...". Not to pile on, but it goes with the new trampoline that doesn't have the proper number of holes cut for the rear lacing, the self tacker with the random alignment of the supports, and the daggerboards with 1/4"+ of material that had to be trimmed off from both the leading and trailing edges. The best that it seems you can do is buy your new sails and take them straight to a sailmaker to have them fixed.

On the owner's class thing - maybe the way to look at it is forming a group that represents distance racing, not the buoys side of things. That way the OD class can stay the same, but there could be a different set of things defined for distance events.

That's what I suggested but the acrobatic rooster only wants advice from "owners".

This topic isn't "For NACRA owners only!!!!!".

It is great for "Tawd" to be organizing the class. But why was this never done before?

NACRA builds great boats but it seems that they have a way of administering their classes that isn't in the best interest of the sailors. IMO, Hobie fails at it too.

Sails in particular have always been a sore spot for me. There are many reasons why free choice of sailmaker is beneficial to all, even the boat builder.

You have to have a published sail plan and you might want to measure in at big events, but that is a piece of cake to get done. Then you can have fat boy sails if you need them, whatever colors you want, and even sewn seams on your spinnaker right out of the bag!

You don't need to get into class politics to get the changes you want for offshore events. That is my advice, (worth what you pay).

Todd, you can get everything you want right now by Mandate. You only need to get approval from 10-20 distance/Tybee folks. If you try to shift the whole class you will be mired in small talk for years. You want people in Iowa or Indonesia voting on your visions?

BTW, you seem to think I am against modernizing your class...not the case. I approve but just think you are trying to move the mountain when you only need a load of sand.

Either way, keep it up big boy.

I think that may be a good idea, but I still think we need a full on owner's association no matter what type racing you do.I think it may be good to have a distance racing subset of the owner's association.Once we get in touch with everyone we'll see what the consensus is.
Todd

I can pretty much tell you that creating a separate set of rules for one type of race versus another is a quick way to kill the class. I know for a fact that I'm not going to want to buy two sets of sails for the same boat.

IMO fixing and updating the current sailplan over time is probably the best idea. Next year, the spin gets updated. 2 years later, the main, 2 years later, the jib. This way it gives everyone in the class who would normally replace their sails every X number of years the opportunity to plan when they move to the next cut.

How many official members does the N20 Class have anyway?

Tad,
I agree , I'd love to see changes happen faster than that, but I think that's the way it needs to be so no-one feels like they've been left out to dry.If the factory is unwilling to help THEN we address that problem when it arises. I can't imagine they wouldn't want to have the opportunity to sell more sails.

I'm enjoying this.

Only because I'm currently boatless, (other than sailing the boats at the local yacht club with my family- usually ensigns).

Without a doubt, my next ride will be a N20, of one of the F18s.

I'm currently at 162#'s, and about to turn 49. I'm leaning towards the F18, but my last boat was a fairly fast N6.0na +.

Todd, I think what you are doing, whatever direction you take, is still positive for the N20 class.

Although I now live WAY up north, I'm still planning to do some of the premier distance races again, like the GT300, and entering my first Ty500.

Anyone reading this, I speak spin, I drive very well, and I'll fly about anywhere on my expense to crew for you.

Here's my reasoning for the distance racing association - in doing SMOD, the builder/class association is going to go for the biggest group (to sell boats and grow the class), and that is going to be buoys. I'm not advocating a full set of different rules and such, but maybe some exceptions and extensions to the buoys rules that make sense (from gear life to safety to competitiveness) that buoys won't care about. This can be done on a class by class basis or an overall distance racing association. Maybe we can learn and apply some things for safety and speed...

Oct 12-15 -- NACRA North Americans, FWYC, Ft Walton, FL, tba

How many of the Tybee 20's will take the week and do the NA's?

That would be another week of vacation time...

Those are the folks that care about class legal equipment.... Everyone else just needs gear that measures in and belongs on the level playing field created by your rules.

What is the average age of the 20's in the Tybee? 5 years old perhaps.. A 6 year plan to phase in a new fixed sail plan would leave the age of the boat at 11 years... Hmm... a bit long in the tooth for a race boat.

Classes make changes quickly.... Those that want to stay with the class and be part of the future... move... those that don't plan to race in the class stay put. The A class has development in hulls and foils yearly and the class continues to grow. The difference with the N20 non class is that the A class has a clear racing program that is drawing 15 to 20 boats to the regional regattas and the rules for development are spelled out.

You guys should focus on the class racing program as well as the rules. Racers do races they want to compete in... The class just makes life easier to make it happen.

You're joking?
Any new boats?

F20 class is the only solution. And just make sure the N20 qualifies in similar fashion to what they did with the Taipan 4.9 (F16) and end the drama...

Swell also seems to be getting ready to produce a 20 footer so it seems plausible that other manufactures might be interested in participating.

A lot of the boats are getting up there in age. Mine is a 2001 model but honestly isn't showing any lasting signs of age. This winter I plan on redoing the bottoms AGAIN since Spring Fever screwed over my last bottom job and I also plan on re-painting the mast.

Larry had a lot of work done on his boat and let me tell you, it looked brand spankin new. Its amazing just what a little TLC does for these boats. As far as stiffness is concerned, I really have no way of accurately measuring it other than bow walking... and mine has negligible bow walk after I've seated the beams.

Yea you can clean them up good. Not a N-20, BUT this boat is a 86!!! Looks new.

Doug

A guy in my home town completely redid both hulls with paint(emron?) and gelcoat, and it really was amazing how much better a 9+ year boat looked. These boats do seem to hold up quite a while, so my approach and I think alot of the fleets is to keep maintaining them. It would be nice to add some new boats to the fleet however...

Larry's boat looks better than new!

I redid our blue boat in 2005 for 2006. I seem to remember it was a 1998 or 99 boat. We finished 3rd that year. The I20s do hold up quite well and just need a little TLC (like anything else).

Well,that is the fundamental question right...

Is it necessary to have some new boats come into the fleet, so that the new class members can purchase a 3 or 4 year old boat and go racing... or can you maintain the current racing program with the existing fleet of refurbished boats.

Im sorry, but I cant let that one slide.... there was HUGE drama, and in the end the majority of the 4.9 fleet shunned the f16 rules and never converted their boats.

I seem to recall wouter stiring them up no end.

In the way of the Swell 20 ftr, i'll be guessing ur talking about the storm. The Storm happened several years ago and got no where, they just havent updated the webby in ages.

I remember seeing pictures of the Storm with 3 guys in trapeze flying a hull.
Its hard enough finding 1 crew, let alone 2!

Reviving the F20 discussion from 2001, etc. makes a lot of sense. It seems the main resistance then was centered around the perameters of the N20 that were outside the box.

As suggested then (by Wouter, et al) just grandfatehr the N20 and go from there.

Problem solved and you may pick up a few "lesser boats" to trounce as well.

There are a lot of good old hulls out there, Hobie 20's, Nacra 6.0's and of course the I20's, seems all you need to do is agree on a spinnaker size, main and jib, and go from there.

The carbon mast thing could be a hold up if anyone thinks that gives the I20 an edge. Personally, I don't think it does that much for you and now with the light Alum. wing masts, you might be faster with one of those.

The F20 was proposed to combine different classes of 20 foot boats and have them race heads up. Then as now the boats are too different and folks too divided for it to move forward. From what I've observed from the people willing to do the work is NO interest in reviving the F20 class as it was proposed several years ago, and only a desire to update the sail plan within the N20 class. This one item alone will take time/effort and without a doubt will come at some cost to the class.

It's really unlikely that "lesser boats" are going to be all that interested in racing heads up. Jack do you want to sail your H20 heads up against the N20?

I do that now. What's the big deal?

And I have beaten a few of the cripples.

It will be hard to take any other 20 footer and compete in this class, but its not impossible. At least people will feel like they are racing Formula one design

So, you're racing heads up no handicap?

If they score a race on handicap I wouldn't turn it down.

However, there are races that I would do regardless if straight up was the rule...like the Mug Race or Statue on Liberty.

There are ways I could make my boat faster. I could even get an N20 if I wanted one.

That isn't the point.

There are N6.0/Fox/H20 etc. guys who might come out if allowed. If they need a handicap, too bad. If they have a box to fit into, then let it be. I don't think I am a lone voice in the wind...probably just the most naïve.

Jack, we've been down this road and they simply DON'T come out. It's great that you are willing to sail this way but the bottom line is most aren't.

Heck their is a perception within the F18 fleet that the older designs are not on par with the newer boats and yes I do think this perception is impacting attendance. Look at the number Tigers that sailed the 2005 NA champs and the 2008 NA champs.

The N6.0 guys are pretty much extinct and the H20 guys that are still getting it done I suspect are pretty hard core OD guys. The Fox although a pretty cool boat came and went before the glass could finish kicking off, and I think the handful that made it to the US are now gone or no longer sailed.

So, what the N20 guys are currently doing is the best option in my opinion and if a F20 class takes on a life of it's own based on that then great.

Is there any significant reason the organizers of any marquee race such as T-500 or GT-300 couldn't specify a particular platform (say, N20 or Tiger) and allow the sail plan to be open?

Other than additional manpower to measure the boats (which they do already?), would this allow for sailplan development on similar platforms to truely gauge performance increases?

If a particular sailplan was demonstrated to be better (from a statistically significant basis), it could then be phased in to the SMOD rules in the manner described earlier...

So, for instance, it is determined through testing and a race like the GT300 that a particular spin design offers the best performance over a wide range of conditions (good for bouys and distance, too), that design would then be incorporated into the fleet rules and phased in over a 3 year period (usually the efffective racing life of a spin, right?)...

As the T500 has already established, it is a good "testing ground" for sail construction, and I think this type of event could be utilized for R&D on sails and equipment for various platforms chosen for the event.

I agree on a few points made earlier:

The N20 isn't like the Getaway in that the majority of owners aren't going to leave them 'tied up' at the beach and take them out for an afternoon/sunset sail. Most owners are racing them in some form (local, regional, national, etc). So, it would lead one to think that most owners want the class to remain relatively current in terms of technology and performance, while still allowing a limit on the cost involved to race.

There isn't a 'replacement' to the N20 as of late that has gained a significant market share to threaten the future of the class.

There are many advantages to opening up the sail plan to other builders, but cost is definitely not one of them (because the class size is below the threshold of ROI for the lofts)

As I get older and fatter, I enjoy the 20 class more for its ease of use and better weight handling characteristcs. I could see a team at minimum weight having a better time on something smaller, but as we tip the scales closer to 400....

I respect that and shouldn't interfere.

My prediction still is...organized or not, there is such a divide in needs, that a split is inevitable. Even in the best situation, a new sail inventory, "one size fits all", will be Obamatized to the point of "why bother"?

I could be wrong (doubtful), but obviously none of my affair.

I also understand the "new boat" syndrome, and that will always happen in any senario. Didn't the Tigers do pretty well recently?

My battle is totally a different one....how to get some of the older boats out to fill in the tail end of the fleet. There are others, but we are all made to feel unwelcome...not worthy...etc. That is more why they don't come out than the fear of getting trounced.

Okay, I think that brings up the most fundamental point about attendance at regattas. Why, specifically, are you (or more generally, boats not at the pointy end of the standings) made to feel 'unwelcome, not worthy, etc.'?

I have never felt unwelcome at a catmaran event...

Splain?

Hey Jay, I will take this to the new thread and we can let the N20 guys work out their issues here.

That's because we talk behind your back...

I try to give you more material...

Ah, man, you've already given us enough to last for years!