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What the hell, we need another Tybee thread.

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/18/09 11:50 PM

I'm just curious, but were the N20's & F18's scored on a corrected time, or on actual time?

What are the limitations on what you can race? Does it have to be a N20 or a F18. Or, if somebody showed up with a different 18-20ft boat could they race? As in Tornado, 18sq, Fox, etc.
Posted By: Robi

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/18/09 11:52 PM

oh no first!

Now taking private biddings, please contact me via PM for this spot.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/18/09 11:58 PM

From a spectator point of view of view I think the classes supplement each other.
Light crews on F18, heavier crews on N20.
And a little bit of health rivalry between the classes to keep everyone sharp.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
From a spectator point of view of view I think the classes supplement each other.
Light crews on F18, heavier crews on N20.
And a little bit of health rivalry between the classes to keep everyone sharp.


That's the way we saw it on the water.
Posted By: KevinRejda

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:32 AM

Amen, I overheard some 20 guys saying "so much for the 18's, our race is the 20's". That doesn't mean they were OK with the 18's beating them, only that they saw the advantage the 18's had in this year's conditions. I'm sure the 18 guys were jazzed to be competitive with the 20's. I do not see a problem with 2 fleets, as long as the numbers are there.
Posted By: windswept

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Or, if somebody showed up with a different 18-20ft boat could they race? As in Tornado, 18sq, Fox, etc.

My understanding is that you have 2 classes, F-18 and N-20, Tornados not invited.
Posted By: Jake

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by KevinRejda
Amen, I overheard some 20 guys saying "so much for the 18's, our race is the 20's". That doesn't mean they were OK with the 18's beating them, only that they saw the advantage the 18's had in this year's conditions. I'm sure the 18 guys were jazzed to be competitive with the 20's. I do not see a problem with 2 fleets, as long as the numbers are there.


I agree with that.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by windswept
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Or, if somebody showed up with a different 18-20ft boat could they race? As in Tornado, 18sq, Fox, etc.

My understanding is that you have 2 classes, F-18 and N-20, Tornados not invited.


They were invited a couple years back, and no one came. If the numbers were there for a fleet,now, who knows.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:30 AM

Chuck just told me that if 5 boats came to him with a check in an envelope then "we would talk".
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:41 AM

Why not just quit the "My boat is better than your boat" and gt back to the days when we raced for the pure JOY of racing and sailing the boat.

Doug
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:46 AM

That's in a different thread Doug. Now go back to your corner until you can be nice.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:52 AM

I was being nice. Just said why all the fighting. We all because we love it. Right?

Doug
Posted By: Brian_Mc

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:08 AM

I think the two classes are great for the race! I also wish you guys would come up with a way to modernize the 20's rig. Why not maximize a great boat's ability? Keeping some diversity really adds to the event for me as a fan. This is my favorite Tybee so far, and a lot of that is due to the teams. There is a spirit that pervades this event, and I think this sport. People help the competition! I've never seen that in any other sport!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by KevinRejda
Amen, I overheard some 20 guys saying "so much for the 18's, our race is the 20's". That doesn't mean they were OK with the 18's beating them, only that they saw the advantage the 18's had in this year's conditions. I'm sure the 18 guys were jazzed to be competitive with the 20's. I do not see a problem with 2 fleets, as long as the numbers are there.


I call bull ****..

You want to tell me that Mischa was only worried about Carrie and TCDYC and did not care to beat, Steve Lohmeyer the winner of several previous races on a N20.... Bull... I don't believe it.

Every racer knows who the competition is... Sailors are racing against their peers.. They are racing those top flight guys... no matter what flavor of boat they are on. This is human nature and it operates right on down the pecking order.

If someone was first to the beach on a N20... Do you really believe They ignored the time the first F18 finished... BS!

Find me somebody who let a boat pass them because they were in the other class... I simply don't believe it.

It is quite normal to have several games in play out there... hell... todd and tad were betting rum.

I think the race was scored properly using SCHRS and then in one design fleets. I would also sort the finishes by elapsed time and publish that result as well. EVERYBODY can find the race that matters to them.

Anything else is just spin ...
Posted By: pgp

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 10:03 AM

Do you think that would include F16s!? Seriously, I'd be interested in doing the first leg, maybe the second.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 11:07 AM


Nice try Pete, but F16's will never be on the start line of the Tybee 500.

They are too nervous in boat handling and that REALLY wears you down after more then a few hours sailing.

F16 are course boats with sufficient capabilities for a distance race of a single day or so. Not for working your way up the coast in storms and breaking waves for a whole week long.

Even if the boats can take it (they probably can) , the crews riding them can't.


Hell, not even I harbor such illusions ! grin

Wouter
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter

Even if the boats can take it (they probably can) , the crews riding them can't.

Wouter


Wouter, I'd prefer if I spoke for myself as an F16 sailor. I'm sure I could do a Tybee if I could afford it.

I assume you meant to say...

Originally Posted by Wouter

Even if the boats can take it (they probably can) , I cannot

Wouter

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:32 PM

Mark,

The F18's certainly were racing the 20's.

For the most part, the 20's weren't racing the 18's. From my post yesterday on my site:

Quote
While I can certainly understand why people chose to compare the platforms, thats not what this race is about. I know that I wasn’t racing the F18’s. I didn’t care about them once we were racing. If one rolled over me to windward, thats fine, I’m not racing them. My competition was more than stiff in the class alone. When I spoke to Steve Lohmeyer on the beach at Fernandina, I asked him what he was going to do today. ”Just keep Trey within 17 minutes of us, thats all we need to do”. I found it particularly telling that Steve, multiple time OVERALL winner of this race, and by any means an accomplished catamaran sailor with an impressive resume, didn’t say something to the effect that “we need to finish an hour in front of Mischa to win.” Whether Steve was being realistic with his goals for the day or he simply didn’t care about racing against the F18’s, I don’t exactly know - but I do know that he finished the overall race in front of Trey.


I think an F16 could do the race. I really do. I do also think that you'd be experiencing some pretty challenging conditions outside of canaveral. There are some serious waves out there that are pretty hard to describe. The warning buoy's that we have to go around out there are yellow balls the size of volkswagons. I've NEVER seen one in my 3 roundings of the cape. You have to be right up on them to see them since the swells are so large, things just disappear when you're in the troughs.
Posted By: Jake

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Originally Posted by KevinRejda
Amen, I overheard some 20 guys saying "so much for the 18's, our race is the 20's". That doesn't mean they were OK with the 18's beating them, only that they saw the advantage the 18's had in this year's conditions. I'm sure the 18 guys were jazzed to be competitive with the 20's. I do not see a problem with 2 fleets, as long as the numbers are there.


I call bull ****..


Find me somebody who let a boat pass them because they were in the other class... I simply don't believe it.

It is quite normal to have several games in play out there... hell... todd and tad were betting rum.

I think the race was scored properly using SCHRS and then in one design fleets. I would also sort the finishes by elapsed time and publish that result as well. EVERYBODY can find the race that matters to them.

Anything else is just spin ...


Mark, this is a different kind of racing that I don't know if you have experienced. We don't spend all day trying to cover someone and keep them in our shadow or pressed to the surf line - it only serves to slow you both down while your staring at 80 miles of ocean in front of your bow and a fast fleet all around. Different people have different skills in odd wave and wind angles, wave height and wind speed. You certainly don't slow down to make the pass easy, but you don't fight too hard to keep them behind you if they have speed even if they're in the same class - it kills you both. This is more akin to a drag race than a buoy race.

There are times in certain waves and wind I had a good bit of speed on every 20 in the fleet but if I wasted my speed by engaging in a fruitless battle while I had the advantage, that 3000 feet I could have gained by locking horns with someone, would be gone and next time we gybe or the wave state changes slightly, Lohemeyer will probably be back into one of his (more plentiful) advantaged points of sail and around me in no time flat. Everyone seems to understand that and there is very little boat on boat engagement (until you start to approach the finish line where you will see some engagement).

Believe me - and I'm telling the complete honest truth; At NO TIME did I ever engage a battle with an F18 because it would have been pointless. I never saw any other 20 engage with an F18 on the course either.

Look at car races like the 24 hour Lemans where you have mixed classes racing on an endurance race course - how many times to do you see a slower class trying to block and hold a faster class down...you don't - because it doesn't make sense for either of them. The slower guy, if in front, doesn't slow down to let them by but they don't fight the pass.
Posted By: pgp

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Mark,

The F18's certainly were racing the 20's.

For the most part, the 20's weren't racing the 18's. From my post yesterday on my site:

Quote
While I can certainly understand why people chose to compare the platforms, thats not what this race is about. I know that I wasn’t racing the F18’s. I didn’t care about them once we were racing. If one rolled over me to windward, thats fine, I’m not racing them. My competition was more than stiff in the class alone. When I spoke to Steve Lohmeyer on the beach at Fernandina, I asked him what he was going to do today. ”Just keep Trey within 17 minutes of us, thats all we need to do”. I found it particularly telling that Steve, multiple time OVERALL winner of this race, and by any means an accomplished catamaran sailor with an impressive resume, didn’t say something to the effect that “we need to finish an hour in front of Mischa to win.” Whether Steve was being realistic with his goals for the day or he simply didn’t care about racing against the F18’s, I don’t exactly know - but I do know that he finished the overall race in front of Trey.


I think an F16 could do the race. I really do. I do also think that you'd be experiencing some pretty challenging conditions outside of canaveral. There are some serious waves out there that are pretty hard to describe. The warning buoy's that we have to go around out there are yellow balls the size of volkswagons. I've NEVER seen one in my 3 roundings of the cape. You have to be right up on them to see them since the swells are so large, things just disappear when you're in the troughs.


My interest would be in adding color to the overall event. I've no interest in trying to compete with anyone in open water. Karl's comment about how gorgeous the water is peeked my interest and I'm sure he was refering to the 1st leg.
Posted By: KevinRejda

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:16 PM

Mark
Reread my post, you are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:32 PM

I was trying to say that racing these F16 boats, that are every bit as sensitive to weight placement as an A-cat, will wear any crew out more rapidly then the N20's or F18's. That has also been the experience from F18 crews that sailed on my boat. Now, that is fine for bouy racing and single day distance racing, but is PROBABLY also a significant discriminating factor for the week long slug that is the Tybee 500.

So if you want me to write :

Quote

Even if the boats can take it (they probably can) , I cannot


Then that is fine, no argument from me, as long as you do realize what that comment still encloses.

Ohh and the rougth conditions that the Tybee and Worrell races got over the years are pretty standard operating conditions where I sail. That is with maybe excepting the swell, but the chop we get here makes up for that.

Wouter
Posted By: Matt M

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Every racer knows who the competition is... Sailors are racing against their peers.. They are racing those top flight guys... no matter what flavor of boat they are on. This is human nature and it operates right on down the pecking order.

If someone was first to the beach on a N20... Do you really believe They ignored the time the first F18 finished... BS!

Find me somebody who let a boat pass them because they were in the other class... I simply don't believe it.



While it bothers me to agree with Mark, here he is spot on.

There was a very large spread of skill levels present in this race. The 18's were right in the mix with the 20's in light air because of the drivers more than the percieved pointing ability of the designs. More boats means more people will have someone right with them during the race reguardless of the type of boat. If the boats are close enough in thoeretical performance I do not see what difference it makes in allowing them in the race. If there was sufficient support to field 30+ boats of a 1 design then put on restrictions, but up untill then let it be open.

We had quite a lively discussion on the beach at Cocoa about this. Why not run an F16 in this race. The handicap number is very close to the F18. Several F16's have finished first to the beach in distance races against the 18 and 20 against crews that were in this race. The organizers can do what they want with their race but in theory it would be bennefical for the beach crews to restrict the race to skill as opposed to boat type if you want try and get them all to finish as close as possible.

Brian's vision of an event that draws media attention needs to be looked at. You gotta think there is a lot of media potential for the non-sailors to have a david and golliath kind of race within the race too. If you are selling Video to sailors in the US the attendance is pretty limited. To really gain viewership and hence exposure there has to be some reason for non sailors to watch. Like it or not this will probably result in some of the sailors having to bend their ideas on what the race is about.
I watched some car rally event on TV last night where they talked cosntantly about the structure of the event being about and around the coverage being what made the event sucessfull. They had enough in it, that they even loaded all the cars up and flew them to China for 1 leg of the race. After watchin the special i still could not tell you what the rules for the race were and I could give a crap about cars or car racing, but I watched and was interested because of how it was produced. (Lots of party and scantily clad women helped also)

My thoughts.

M
Posted By: Wouter

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:46 PM

Quote

My interest would be in adding color to the overall event. I've no interest in trying to compete with anyone in open water. Karl's comment about how gorgeous the water is peeked my interest and I'm sure he was refering to the 1st leg.



Well, by means go for it (or have someone else) do it. In medium conditions it will fine. It is the rough stuff that will wear you out. However, if anyone has the physique and more importantly the mental stamina for that, then the (newest) F16 boats will be about as good as the F18's. I refer to the newest boats as the first generation F16's did lack some dive resistance in rough conditions by comparison. The VIper, Aussie Blade and the new Falcon has solved that together with the first generation of Stealths (T-foils).


And Matt, if anybody can do it on a F16 then you'll by at the top of that list. You handled the conditions at the GC2007 and the subsequent NAM-REM race quite admirably. I envison a normal to bad Tybee 500 to be about 20 times the length of the NAM-REM race we had that year.


But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's.

Wouter
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:52 PM

Quote
But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's


Someone check downstairs. I think it hath frozen over!
laugh
Posted By: Wouter

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:57 PM



Hey, How do you like the NEW wouter so far ?

Wouter grin
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's


Someone check downstairs. I think it hath frozen over!
laugh


Now that IS funny......
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 01:59 PM

Off to a good start. :P
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter


Hey, How do you like the NEW wouter so far ?

Wouter grin

the NEW Wouter,
I'm not sure if you got castrated or grew a pair, but so far I've agreed with most of what you had to say. I'm now loading my .45 to eat a hollowpoint.What's the world coming to.
The big question to see if you've really changed.
What do you think of Sam Evans?
Tawd
Posted By: Wing nut

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Do you think that would include F16s!? Seriously, I'd be interested in doing the first leg, maybe the second.


Pgp,

If you want to give distance racing a try maybe you should consider the Round the Island race at FWYC in June. It is a race around Santa Rosa Island the Island is approx 44mi long the race ends up being about 100miles. They start in the bay near FWYC at 7:00 am go out the Desting pass, sail east to west to the Pensacola pass back into the ICW and return to FWYC. It is open to all multi hulls 16' and larger. There will be everything from H16's to large tri's racing. It is common for the slower non spin boats to take 24 hours to complete this race.
Posted By: Jake

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Wouter


Hey, How do you like the NEW wouter so far ?

Wouter grin

the NEW Wouter,
I'm not sure if you got castrated or grew a pair, but so far I've agreed with most of what you had to say. I'm now loading my .45 to eat a hollowpoint.What's the world coming to.
The big question to see if you've really changed.
What do you think of Sam Evans?
Tawd


I can hear the clink, thunk...thunk...thunk... as the grenade hits the floor. Why you gotta go there?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:16 PM

As far as F-16 in the Tybee pitch it to Chuck. 5 boats and CHECKS goes along way with any race organizer.He'll need a new group of boats if the 20s don't come back.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:17 PM

And it's not just been in this thread and I like this new guy. Where is Wouter and what have done with the body?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
But I propose to get back to the topic as this isn't really about F16's


Someone check downstairs. I think it hath frozen over!
laugh


Hath, or Hoth? Unless global warming has ramped up on Hoth I think we're ok. smile

Pete- you'd f-ing die on an F16 if it got rough. If I were the organizers I wouldn't allow a single hand boat, and you'll get pounded to death with two people on a short platform.

I'm not a huge fan of handicap racing. To my way of thinking it should be a run what ya brung kind of format. If boat "A" slides across the finish line first, boat "A" should be the winner of that race/leg, not boat "J" that finished however much later, but won because it has a different rating. I can't say whether or not this would invite more people to the Tybee, or if its even a good idea to bring more people to the Tybee. The last thing you want is people like me out there clutching to half a boat and needing rescue, just because they brought the wrong tool for the job. you want honest competitiors, not people doing it just for fun if it. Competitors prepare better

[disclaimer]Karl B. has not done any distance racing, does not intend to do any real distance racing, and is potentially talking out his butt[/disclaimer] whistle
Posted By: pgp

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:03 PM

I'm coming up for Juana's in September, but can't get up there this summer. All out of kitchen passes for awhile.

I'll surely do Juana's short (25 miles?) race and try to get over to Hiram's Haul next time.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:03 PM

Sorry Kevin.... I just picked your post to comment on because you were reporting people's point of view ... of i am not racing against X. (as opposed to one of the participants who is knee deep in the drama)

It doesn't really matter if you think you are racing the smaller boat... He is certainly racing you on the larger boat... Now you can keep score or don't keep score... but human nature will focus on the difference... and the little boat beating the big boat will be noticed and discussed.

This debate was argued 3 or 4 months ago... The one design proponents (no... I am not racing the F18... keep that handicap stuff far away from the pristine race that is the Tybee versus me... score it on handicap and all ways but Sunday.... Euro style (for lack of a better word).

What happened?...
The end result was ONE RACE, scored on handicap AND two Races in one design F18 and N20. Pretending that no racing existed between the two fleets or between the sailors in each area of the pecking order is just silly and the OA saw this. Matt M makes my point in a more polite manner.

My position is consistent... The racing scene in the US is at a tipping point in most regions of the country. Hell,the Tybee race is seemingly in doubt again.

Competition and passing boats is a fundamental element of sailboat racing. In any OD fleet you have a big range of skills and the pecking order doesn't change much... When it gets small.... it dies. So IMO, You need to make sure that these elements are in every race we run. Racing on handicap is not perfect but it gives the top guys somebody else to race against and so on down the pecking orders. When you can get 20 to 30 boats on the line...event after event it's a different story.

Either we recognize the reality or we watch race after race crater.

Posted By: Jake

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Sorry Kevin.... I just picked your post to comment on because you were reporting people's point of view ... of i am not racing against X. (as opposed to one of the participants who is knee deep in the drama)

It doesn't really matter if you think you are racing the smaller boat... He is certainly racing you on the larger boat... Now you can keep score or don't keep score... but human nature will focus on the difference... and the little boat beating the big boat will be noticed and discussed.

This debate was argued 3 or 4 months ago... The one design proponents (no... I am not racing the F18... keep that handicap stuff far away from the pristine race that is the Tybee versus me... score it on handicap and all ways but Sunday.... Euro style (for lack of a better word).

What happened?...
The end result was ONE RACE, scored on handicap AND two Races in one design F18 and N20. Pretending that no racing existed between the two fleets or between the sailors in each area of the pecking order is just silly and the OA saw this. Matt M makes my point in a more polite manner.

My position is consistent... The racing scene in the US is at a tipping point in most regions of the country. Hell,the Tybee race is seemingly in doubt again.

Competition and passing boats is a fundamental element of sailboat racing. In any OD fleet you have a big range of skills and the pecking order doesn't change much... When it gets small.... it dies. So IMO, You need to make sure that these elements are in every race we run. Racing on handicap is not perfect but it gives the top guys somebody else to race against and so on down the pecking orders. When you can get 20 to 30 boats on the line...event after event it's a different story.

Either we recognize the reality or we watch race after race crater.



If this is the case, why isn't the Steeplechase and Round the Island overun with entries for their handicap distance racing?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:13 PM

Quote
Pretending that no racing existed between the two fleets or between the sailors in each area of the pecking order is just silly and the OA saw this. Matt M makes my point in a more polite manner.


Pretending that you know what the kiss you're talking about when you weren't even there makes you look like an even bigger e-sailor than you truly are.

Quote
Hell,the Tybee race is seemingly in doubt again.


Because it was SOOOOOO popular when it WAS run on open handicap. Please.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:14 PM

****. I can't speak for the F-18s, they were probably in giant slayer mode racing us as hard as they could to try to prove a point.I ignored them from a competitive standpoint but did try to use them for reference. The conditions this year made us like apples and oranges.It could be that way anytime but this was a test.
Todd
Posted By: brucat

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:22 PM

Mark, you can say it all you want, but you can't MAKE us like handicap racing. There are those of us who HATE it, or will only tolerate it for 1-2 races a year. Why can't you accept that and work to promote racing of all types rather than shove this crap down our throats in every thread you come across?

37 Hobie 16As at Madcatter. Nuff said.

Mike
Posted By: Matt M

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:42 PM

<****. I can't speak for the F-18s, they were probably in giant slayer mode racing us as hard as they could to try to prove a point.I ignored them from a competitive standpoint but did try to use them for reference. The conditions this year made us like apples and oranges.It could be that way anytime but this was a test.
Todd


Follow the advice of your signature.

I have been there and have raced THIS event in a mixed fleet (I20 vs HT)

I do not prefer it but do race a lot of handicap events. The more boats the better. If your judging your speed against a F18 then you are "racing" that guy - however you want to look at it. Boats being close to you help you go faster even if they are not the same. In THIS way the mixed fleet help the event IMO

Too many people are trying to read too much into the results and make conculsions with no real basis. That is the detriment of mixed fleet racing, but a big part of human nature.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 03:57 PM

My bad, I guess I raced against you and didn't know it. That year I didn't race the HTs boat for boat either. To me racing another boat is changing your settings and tactics to get in front of or stay in front of a boat. We did not do that with the F18s or 18hts. Looking at one and saying " Damn they can reach high with that kite" is not racing them.
I think you should talk to Chuck and try to get the F-16s in. It would be especially nice to see some of the rarely sail smack talkers do it. The F-16s are plenty fast and you build the blades well enough, that I think they'd do fine.
Todd
Posted By: davidn

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 04:56 PM

"Pete- you'd f-ing die on an F16 if it got rough. If I were the organizers I wouldn't allow a single hand boat, and you'll get pounded to death with two people on a short platform."

Disclaimer; I've never done the Tybee and won't (I'm past the age to take that abuse for multiple days). However, I do remember the famed Worrell 1000, twice as long, was run with Hobie 16s early on. Were those sailors supermen or have we become wimpy over the years?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 04:57 PM

those guys were epic.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by davidn
"Pete- you'd f-ing die on an F16 if it got rough. If I were the organizers I wouldn't allow a single hand boat, and you'll get pounded to death with two people on a short platform."

Disclaimer; I've never done the Tybee and won't (I'm past the age to take that abuse for multiple days). However, I do remember the famed Worrell 1000, twice as long, was run with Hobie 16s early on. Were those sailors supermen or have we become wimpy over the years?


They swapped out a guy, so the teams were 3 men and there is a little bit of speed difference and energy output between a hobie 16 and a nacra 20, to say the least.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
there is a little bit of speed difference and energy output between a hobie 16 and a nacra 20, to say the least.


Unless it's a reach and it's blowing 25 then it's even smile
Posted By: Tornado

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Wing nut
Originally Posted by pgp
Do you think that would include F16s!? Seriously, I'd be interested in doing the first leg, maybe the second.


Pgp,

If you want to give distance racing a try maybe you should consider the Round the Island race at FWYC in June. It is a race around Santa Rosa Island the Island is approx 44mi long the race ends up being about 100miles. They start in the bay near FWYC at 7:00 am go out the Desting pass, sail east to west to the Pensacola pass back into the ICW and return to FWYC. It is open to all multi hulls 16' and larger. There will be everything from H16's to large tri's racing. It is common for the slower non spin boats to take 24 hours to complete this race.


GT300 might be an option for F16's...they allow ARC22 & Tornado.
There is also a "short" option to run just the weekend days and I think that is open to any beachcat.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Mark, you can say it all you want, but you can't MAKE us like handicap racing. There are those of us who HATE it, or will only tolerate it for 1-2 races a year. Why can't you accept that and work to promote racing of all types rather than shove this crap down our throats in every thread you come across?

37 Hobie 16As at Madcatter. Nuff said.

Mike


And the rest of the madcatter story... 50 Hobie 16's (outstanding!)
1 Hobie 20
1 FX1
7 Tigers

The Madcatter has an international rep for a great party, demonstrated record of hospitality...
Held on the most popular weekend of the year to run a regatta,
the best in one design hobie racing etc etc etc.

bottom line at madcatter
The North East Hobie 17 fleet ... gone.
The mid atlantic Hobie 18 fleet ... gone.
East Coast Hobie 20 fleet ... gone.
Hobie Tiger fleet ... hanging in there

Question?
What's missing?

Why do I bust your balls time and time again?
Because I have watched the decline for 20 years and I refuse to accept the status quo.

All you say is... we hate handicap... we love one design... So, more one design racing is the solution.

When faced with the attendance facts... not just at madcatter but at all of the big regattas, I would say that this approach year after year is insane!

I argue that the problem is no competition in small fleets...Either one design or open class. No amount of great party will solve this fundamental problem. I assert that a small fleet does not deliver the goods because you do not have much competition and the racing does not give people what they are looking for. So... we are loosing the casual racers .... the guys who do one or two regattas a year on old boats with new crews. These guys used to go to the big events.

Sure... the hard core guys don't want to compromise their racing experience and tolerate handicap racing... I got it.. I understand it. They are the ones running the show,
You are speaking for them... great! But, If we don't change course now and modify the structure of the racing... we will crater a bunch of fleets and loose sailors who by their very nature of choosing to stay in a small class are not likely to be hard core OD racers.

I think the game is about keeping them racing.

I will say it again... The Europeans don't seem to worry about handicap detracting from their racing.... they seem to just go racing in big starts with like boats grouped together, Then they score it out on handicap and OD, elapsed, masters, etc etc. The EU guys keep the races large (handicap) so that you can always be racing somebody... you don't get marginalized into a 5 boat fleet which craters in short order when people loose interest

The more small fleets you have... the more last place finishers you have and little chance to escape the bottom.

That's my reasoning and I am sticking to it.

Posted By: pgp

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 05:47 PM

My interest is not pure competition. 1) I think the more boats on the beach, the more public interest. If you're having a party, why not a big one? 2)Adventure. It's not like I'm gonna win the thing, but, I would like to come to the party.

It's a year away, I'll try and do some distance racing and see if I have the stamina. It sounds like an awfully big if.

Out of curiosity, what is the easiest leg?




Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 06:45 PM

This being my first time in the race, I wouldn't try to say a certain leg as a whole is easier than another.. to us, each leg had its own obstacles.

The first leg to Miami made us very nervous much of the way constantly trying to avoid reefs.

Then there was the mentally and physically exhausting Cocoa Beach leg that endured late into the night.

And of course, the Jacksonville Jetty on the way to Fernadina seems to be considered the "nastiest obstacle in the whole race."

But obviously, the easiest legs for us were the ones where the wind blew steadily from start to finish. The conditions of the day determine the difficulty of the leg. Honestly the last leg to Tybee was the least eventful for my crew and I.
Posted By: brucat

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 07:52 PM

Mark,

From where I sit, your "solution" was actually the root cause of the problem. I too watched it happen, and obviously have a very different opinion. It's no less valid than yours, but I don't jump on every regatta report thread for a handicap race and tell everyone to start sailing one-design.

Stop hijacking all the threads on the board with this nonsense.

Mike
Posted By: Robi

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 07:52 PM

Pete if you are seriously considering this, you should try to do the Miami To Key Largo race. Its an awesome race and its somewhat close to what the first leg is, but just in reverse.

If you do it next year let me know I wouldnt mind heading down that way.
Posted By: pgp

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 08:04 PM

That's an idea! I'll keep it in mind.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 08:43 PM

In my confused and exhausted state I'm trying to wrap my head around this to see what the problem is.

First, I think this was the closest N20 racing I've seen since the 2001 Worrell 1000! Congratulations to Steve and Jay on the win! I don't think Chuck is ever going to "exclude" any five of the same class boats who come with a check for entry, within reason of course. If he used the term "phase out" it is not a proper statement though.

He does show some foresight in thinking F18s are the "future." It is one of the most popular classes in the world now, mono or multi. He wants to grow his race and the best way to do that is to get one of the fastest growing fleets in the world to participate. Who can fault him for this? Yes, this year is the first year that F18s have shown up with any force, and the 20 was still the largest fleet. I don't see this as Chuck turning his back on the 20s. Congratulations to Mischa and Eduard on the F18 win!

With regard to the corrected time placings, I held my thanks for the organizers, race committee, Carrie, our sailing partners, TVS, Robbob and Mariooo, and the sailors for making the event the success it was this year during the class prizegiving because I thought the corrected time prizegiving would be more important. However, JW just whizzed through the corrected time places at the end, so I didn't get to give my speech. During the prizegiving, without a doubt more focus was given to the individual classes over the overall corrected. This was definately done on purpose to give more importance to the individual classes over the corrected.

The conditions didn't matter much to us. We were always guaging off of any boat around us, making adjustments, and trying to pass every boat on the course. We were racing everyone, working on placement on the course, leverage and boatspeed. No matter what cat we would have been on, our mindset would have been the same.

I have a bit of a unique position here, as I've competed in this race on both the N20 and the Tiger. I REALLY enjoy sailing both platforms in this race. Of course, there is enough room for both classes to participate in the Tybee.

I did want to win, but what is also important is the adventure and comraderie of this race. There was plenty of adventure, and I consider everyone at the event a friend, and I was glad to see you all. I only wish we had a layday to party it up a bit. I had an incredible amount of fun on and off the water!

I especially want to congratulate all of the first-timers who did the race. No matter what boat you were on, I'm sure you're hooked and are the future of races like this. I have known most of you for quite a while now, and I was proud to go up the coast with you. See you next year!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 08:59 PM

Pete,

I think the following would be good "appetizers" to see if you think (1) you or (2) your crew would be suited for the T-500.

Not necessarily in this order, but all right here in ole' FLA to reduce logistics costs:

Macho Man (day 2 optional) - Tampa -Always seemed to have a wide variety of conditions, from no wind to blast reaching. Also seemed to have a good pounding up the cost in chop. Day 2 isn't nearly as tough, but gives you a good idea of what kind of condition (fatigue, etc.) you'd face after a big day on the water.

Miami Key-Largo - Usually benign or pleasant weather conditions, but can be an off-water logistical nightmare. Good training for "Keys water" sailing (reefs/sandbars) and for getting your ground crew vetted.

Steeplechase- Key Largo- Probably best "T-500 Prep" race. Usually one or both of the days will be challenging weather conditions (wind over 15 kts. Upwind or blast reach in choppy water). Off-water logistics aren't too bad, since you can stay in same hotel the whole weekend

Keys 100 (former Hogsbreath) - Similar to Steeplechase, but logistics are more difficult

Hiram's Haul - Melbourne - Best "Taste of Distance" race. Short distance, logistics aren't too difficult. Protected water, which allows those in moderate shape to race in all but disastrous weather conditions.

RTI - Pensacola - Perhaps best "how long can I sit in this dang drysuit" test. Logistics are easy (one stop), but in all but the best years, you can expect to be on your boat more than 12 hours (in some cases closer to 24 hours).

Space Coast 45 - Melbourne - I think this is now held in protected water, which would make it a good race similar to Hiram's Haul Distance is slightly longer, too.

Everglades Challenge - west coast FL. Probably the most logistically equivalent to T-500. Never competed in it, but anecdotal evidence indicates the conditions may be slightly less ferocious than the T-500 on a bad week.

Any others I'm missing?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 09:04 PM

If you're into freezing your boy parts off you should look into the distance race on Lake of the Woods. Week long distance race in sub 50*F water.

http://www.lowisa.org/history/43/NORMainRegattaLOWISA43.pdf

or Leech Lake regatta, its about 30 miles.
http://www.leech-lake.com/events_regatta.php
Posted By: JeffS

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 09:35 PM

If it's not a rude question how much did it cost to do the race?
regards
Posted By: CatInTheHat

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 09:53 PM

Jeff, a very fair and excellent question. I bought my boat for 6500 four years ago (cheap). I have probably sunk 10k into it for new sails, tons of extra parts, and oops I broke my mast last year without insurance (Don't worry Chuck, I had liability). This year I only spent about 200 or less on parts during the race, 500 for entry and 3300 for food, drink, gas, hotels, and whatever for a family of four. This did not include my partners expenses for him and his family. So minimum for you, a partner, and 1 or two crew who all shared a room and 1 car and minimum breakage would be 3-4k. Insurance was 400 for 10000 with replacement value. i.e. they won't pro-rate, but will give you what it costs to replace the part. This is assuming elliot pattison replaces my spin, else add another grand or an insurance claim.
Posted By: F18_VB

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
If you're into freezing your boy parts off you should look into the distance race on Lake of the Woods. Week long distance race in sub 50*F water.

http://www.lowisa.org/history/43/NORMainRegattaLOWISA43.pdf

I would strongly recommend this race to anyone. Its a lot of fun. Logistics are easy. You are never more than a mile from shore, so there is little danger. Plus, its a nice vacation in the woods.

Lake of the woods is not 50 degree water. Its about 75 degrees. We never needed anything but shorts and T-shirts when I did it.

Logistics are easy because although the course may be about 50 miles each day, the start and finish of each day are not far apart. A handful of us beach cats shared a houseboat that met us at the finish of each race.

The race is open to all sailboats: dinghies, big keel boats, A-Scows, Cbeach cats, and F-boats. If you get in trouble on your beach cat, a slower boat will a little behind you.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/19/09 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by CatInTheHat
Jeff, a very fair and excellent question. I bought my boat for 6500 four years ago (cheap). I have probably sunk 10k into it for new sails, tons of extra parts, and oops I broke my mast last year without insurance (Don't worry Chuck, I had liability). This year I only spent about 200 or less on parts during the race, 500 for entry and 3300 for food, drink, gas, hotels, and whatever for a family of four. This did not include my partners expenses for him and his family. So minimum for you, a partner, and 1 or two crew who all shared a room and 1 car and minimum breakage would be 3-4k. Insurance was 400 for 10000 with replacement value. i.e. they won't pro-rate, but will give you what it costs to replace the part. This is assuming elliot pattison replaces my spin, else add another grand or an insurance claim.


Yeah, But didn't all four of you sleep in the back of a Datsun pick-up?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/20/09 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by F18_VB
Lake of the woods is not 50 degree water. Its about 75 degrees. We never needed anything but shorts and T-shirts when I did it.


I'm 300 miles south, and the lakes rarely get up to 75, unless its tiny. Everybody I had talked to said a dry suit was just about mandatory.


edit- That's fucked up. I just googled the snot outta water temp/Lake of the Woods. Some were claiming 60* in June. I can't believe it would actually get that warm. I wouldn't think it would be as bad as Superior with some rediculous annual average of 37*
Posted By: F18_VB

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/20/09 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I just googled the snot outta water temp/Lake of the Woods. Some were claiming 60* in June. I can't believe it would actually get that warm. I wouldn't think it would be as bad as Superior with some rediculous annual average of 37*

If its warm enough for these little girls, it is warm enough for a catamaran sailor. They might be Canadian though...
[Linked Image]

The race is in early August giving it two more months to warm up after June. While the lake is large, it is not very deep. So, it warms quickly.

Here is what I was describing with the house boats as a moving base:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tornado

Re: What the hell, we need another Tybee thread. - 05/20/09 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by F18_VBIf its warm enough for these little girls, it is warm enough for a catamaran sailor. They might be Canadian though...
[Linked Image</div><div class=" class="post-image" style="height:auto!important;max-width:100%!important;"/>



Yes, I think you're right...definately Canuck ;-)

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