Unwelcome at regattas

The quotes above were extracted from another thread and I felt this subject needed its own post.

Jack, please provide more detail into how folks are made to feel unwelcome, I'm assuming this applies more to the open fleet rather than the others.

Just a thought, to a newbie coming into the sport, sitting around the campfire trying to get a word in edgwise when we've all been in the sport forEVER by their perspective, can be a bit daunting.
But I've Never seen anyone treated badly at a regatta EVER based on the boat they sail. Only thing is groupings of boats, and that depends on the RC and how they think someone fits in to the pattern of Portsmouth ratings.
CARY
SEACATS
ACAT BOYER MARK IV

There has been a couple of recent regattas that tout themselves as catering to one or two classes. Which is fine if that is what they want...but when pressed, they say they're open to other classes if they'll show up in force. It's an interesting trend and I can see how that makes some feel unwelcome.

Cary, whenever you're around a campfire, it's hard for anyone to get a word in edgwise, upwise, or sideways.

When I showed up to my 1st regatta with my beat up 1976 5.2, there were others just like me. Today, there are alot of "pretty" boats, and I can see how they may not feel welcome, or maybe somewhat intimidated. But...I dont think its the sailors with the pretty boats, I think its the regatta itself.
There is not really a B or C fleet anymore perse like there used to be.....Shame on us!

My concern is there are situations where people are invited then once there made to feel unwelcome. Since Jack brought it up I'd like to get his take.

As for regattas catering to specific fleets or brand of boat as long as you know ahead of time that it is that type of regatta I don't see an issue. It's not like there is a shortage of regattas to attend.

Maybe the term unwelcome is a little strong, outsider may be a better term. I've felt it and can understand what I think he is saying. I did see a change in attitude in the SE last season. I did feel more welcome and more a part of the "in" crowd. I race open or with the F18s and really could care less about portsmouth. I had some great times last year and when money becomes available I will be back. For me its about going out of my way to engage the other sailors. There are some definate clicks, and attitude/arrogance that I attempt to avoid. I find most of the racers to be very easy to approach and enjoyable. You have to keep coming back to really begin to feel welcome!

You are right Dave. Years ago there used to be "B" and "C" fleets and were quite fun to sail. You didn't worry about having to know the rules book. Now in single fleet open regattas if you are in the mix with the hot shots they'll trounce you with the rule book, not to mention on the water. My wife is not as agressive as some of the sailor women out there and is/was very intimidated by the guys. She hasn't done a race in 10 years, and if momma ain't happy...

So we just sail.

Clayton
S27 Toute de Suite
Nacra 5.2

Dave, you see the numbers are getting we don't have the critical mass to support B and C fleets anymore. If the numbers were there you know the regatta organizers would be happy to create B and C fleets.

Dave you quit coming because your boat aint pretty enough?

It's just not isolated to the campfile... the beach the parking lot the restroom... the list goes on and on.

Damn, has does he know I dont show up?

Dave, I think there is a market to tap into, we just need to be more aggressive to go get them. Then make it interesting for them. I would love to see the guys that have the cool boats and have been around doing a rigging or sail trim clinic at EVERY REGATTA. Make it basic, engage the newbies, and I think we could get the C fleeters out.
Catapalooza was a great idea, now we need to expand on it.
BTW, the new guys arent hanging out on this site either, they are watching baseball with a mothballed boat in the back yard. We have to go find them again

Actually, many of the new guys are actually lurking here. You're right, we really need to get started on the 2nd edition of Catapalooza...let's start some planning / discussion this weekend at BWYD.

Excatly and here's one way how "WE" do it: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=90832

Every single one of us make it happen and are at fault for not getting it done! The days of us being able to show up at a regatta expecting numbers to magically appear are over, long over. Picking up the phone is incredibly effective. The larger the regatta the more diverse group becomes and the clickishness fades into the background noise.

As the author of the post on the SA forum says, pick up the phone emails simply don't cut it.

Awesome! Let's get this going...again!

As I understand it, Trey made his own little catapalooza down in Charleston this past weekend :P

Even way back at my first ever Cat regatta, I've never felt Unwelcome. I think you guys are the most open to all sailors I've ever been around, which is why I keep coming back. Back in my Mono days, everything was Club-centric and fleet centric, and if you weren't from "Their Club" or if you weren't sailing "Their boat" they wouldn't talk to you.

I've NEVER had that experience with you Cat sailors. The "Senior" People are usually the first to jump up and help out the new guy, at least that was my introduction to cat racing when I showed up with a beat down old Hobie 18, no comptip, no beach wheels or toy box, just all the -stuff- tied to the tramp, over in Ft. Pierce in about 1998? The Halloween regatta I think? Rick was there with his Taipan 5.9 with Hooter! I was drooling over it! Brian Karr was there and so was my son, Tommy, age 6 I think. What a mess we were! No idea what the -Hell- we were doing!

So many people dropped what they were doing to help me get the mast up, boat off the trailer, show me around, it was fantastic.

I want to take this opportunity to thank you all, as I was too overwhelmed back then, but without all that help, I would never have made it, or come back.

Thanks for being so supportive and inclusive all you guys/gals, you know who you are. I can't remember everyone, as you were all new to me then.

But to this day, I still have more "fun" from the social aspect than the racing, it's so great just to get to talk with kindred spirits over a few cold ones! The saiing is really only second most fun for me. Sometimes so frustrating, but you senior guys have taught me so much, for free! (well, maybe for a beer or two!)

Thanks!

The quotes above were extracted from another thread and I felt this subject needed its own post.

Jack, please provide more detail into how folks are made to feel unwelcome, I'm assuming this applies more to the open fleet rather than the others. [/quote]

First let me point out that I have demonstrated that folks with my point of view can in fact penetrate the "pointy end" with our inferior platforms.

Secondly, I haven't been treated poorly at any events...more with indifference I would say. Even that doesn't bother me. I'm able to deal with that.

I'm not even complaining, just observing.

It totally baffles me that all these old boats that have to be languishing somewhere, many in excellent condition, do not seem to have owners, new or old, who want to bring them to regattas. My take is that they (owners) feel out of place with the focus on several "modern" classes who can muster a quorum.

In theory, an open class should resolve this, and in fact it often does at some events. However, it is a known quotient that no one really likes handicap races, per se.

I don't know why the F18 and to a lesser degree the F16 class were able to break through the crap into viability and the F20 did not.

I can only go back through the archives for some clues.

I think my "not worthy" feeling comes from a perceived observation that "if it ain't N20, then it don't count and BTW, stay out of our business".

Their day is looming and they are naturally looking for solutions. Top dogs eventually end up on the porch. It is the way of the world.

Why not make a place for old dogs to run in a pack when the time comes? ...and that day ALWAYS does come.

That's my thought without contention implied. Thanks for asking.

I call total B.S. on the premise of this thread.
Cat sailors are the most open group of sailors I've ever been involved with. Anyone going to their first few events of a new undertaking/sport is going to feel like an outsider. That feeling goes away faster the more involved they get. I do a few different sports, I definitely feel like an outsider at kiteboarding because I'm just learning the ropes. I felt like an outsider at competitive shooting until I started to get more involved. I felt like an outsider at car racing when I tried that. The list goes on.
Jack ,
How many people at vintage car events are as open and helpful as catsailors at a regatta. For that matter how would you feel if I wanted to start dictating your rules at vintage events when I don't participate or own a vintage race car( back to the other N-20 thread, you seem to have taken offense to).
Just something to think, lotsa shoes ,try 'em all on.
Todd

Todd... you are missing the point by over interpreting the word "unwelcome"

The facts are..some of the existing fleets of catamarans are getting old and their OD class are in trouble.

Hobie 18... no longer made in the USA. 0 boats at north east championships... aka Madcatter
Hobie 17 .... no longer made ... 0 boats at north east championships.
Nacra 20.... existing fleet is getting older and few new boats are being added to the racing fleet.

OD Fleets that have died in the last several years are
Nacra 6.0's, 5.8's and 5.5 uni's... Prindles and Mysteres.

What do ALL OF THESE owners have in common...
My answer... They own good old boats and are not coming to regattas! AND ... they are probably not going to buy into a different class of boat when their old one is perfectly fine.

If you ask the question... What the hell is missing... I think you get much further.. then asking what is "unwelcome" about our regattas.

You make good points however, that really isn't what we are discussing hereTodd.

You have always been outgoing and friendly in person. However, you seem to have an adgenda that opposes courteous dialoge here.

I have no interest in your situation other than casul interest.

However, this thread isn't BS to a lot of folks.

You must have landed on your head.

I think intimidating may apply better in some cases. As our local fleets dwindled, we're left with a large majority of "serious" sailors; national champions, tybee sailors, and sailors with fast new(er) boats. The last Catapalooza - while not the highly organized and polished event it could (but will eventually) be - opened my eyes a little to those sailors that are around us. They're out there. There is just some trepidation about showing up with a rusty-dusty and some inexperience at our regattas. The truth is, none of us really feel any disregard for these sailors and I promise you we will be most helpful if asked...but we need events like Catapalooza to break down some of those barriers and rebuild the critical mass of newbie sailors to make the events seem openly welcoming to other newbies.

****.People need to stick around to get comfortable.If they are old guard with a dead class and don't want to switch boats then portsmouth is there for them. What kind of coddling do you propose to make them feel welcome? Where did you feel unwelcome?
Todd

Just a thought here. Events like Catapalooza are great. We sailed with some newsailors out to the island, wind picked up a bit and people teamed up on 20's and f-18's. I think that's awesome, however I think we should be careful. If our intention is to bring out "ol rusty" and get them sailing at our events again we should make a conserted effort to value the boat they brought. The temptation is to try to grow "our" fleet by introducing people to "our boat". More boats in OD is a good thing but there's nothing wrong with runnin' what you brung.

I think the comittment of the new folks needs to be strong enough to bring back B fleet, but with people who show up every now and then that's hard to do. I got my start ,and still sail with a club that let's ANYTHING sail, we have everything from prams to proas and snarks to Nacra 20s. It's all about a good time, hell I'm the vice commodore.It can be a little to relaxed for some hardcore racers, but it really helps balance me out.Anyone who finds this of interest is more than welcome to come out.Get up with me and I'll give you the details.
Todd

Todd or "Tawd" as you seem to like.

Your question is apples and oranges.

Since you asked, Vintage car races are about people having fun with whatever old POS they might have. It could be a million dollar Ferrari or an old home built one-off that never made sense, even in it's day.

We have a place for everyone to race safely if not fairly in respect to winning anything. We have so many classes (typically at least 60 per event) and we award medals three deep, that virtually everone gets several.

Nobody cares who finishes first except the guy that does.

Our events are down a little this year because of the economy. Just got back from Elkhart Lake where we had 150 this year as opposed to 170 last. Our big events get 400-500 cars. We must be doing something that people like.

Our sport could die overnight with fuel uncertainty and such. However, at the moment we must be on to something, wouldn't you say?

If someone thinks a rule could be written better or has a suggestion, I take it under consideration. That's how we present a better product. We don't stick our head in the sand....oops..sorry.

I'll bet I have more old shoes than you!

What you described sounds alike lot portsmouth to me, so there's your answer. It's pretty obvious that if anyone here tries to explain to you what they've learned from years of doing this ,you take offense and consider it looking down on you. So on that note I'll leave you to your stew.

If you don't get the Todd /Tawd thing I'll splain it to you in person.

Okay, what is missing? And if you say embrace handicap racing I'm gonna say make it happen and until then... it's just words on a forum.

Hot, young women, fun races (chugboat races, etc), and communal beer buckets.

Oh yeah, and media.

Bingo!
The Nacra way of life!

I didn't see it like that - the kids of the parents who were there want to ride on the big boats to see what it was like. It was their suggestion. However, I do agree that we didn't put enough emphasis on helping them with their own boats - capsize and recovery should be a main event. Trey is the professor in this area.

There are no handicaps. Once you're placed in a class as fairly as we can, you race heads-up. Nothing like Portsmouth. Again, apples and oranges.

If you don't "get it" I am not going to try and make you feel like an idiot.

Post deleted.
Sorry, Jack.

Lets go way back to say '82. I sailed with my dad on a 16, was a local fleet member and sailed "B" fleet. The crowds of spectators were huge, beer distributors provided tap trucks, every event had a specially designed t-shirt, awesome door prizes and great meals provided by local sponsors.
Today there is no fleet for me to join, regatta crowds are small, some times beer is provided, sometimes there is a t-shirt, usually a meal but not what it was. Its just not the same atmosphere now. Without the local fleet organization its much harder to get "outsiders" motivated.
Why is there no registration on the EMSA site? If there were it would at least give you a starting point for rallying the troops. Other than Trey Brown encouraging me to attend events I hear from no one in the sailing community. In fact, I will venture to say that Trey Brown has done as much or more for the sailing scene in the SE than anyone. I know of several other sailors that he encourages as well. No one else contacts these guys regularly and none of them sail an I-20. Its about organization and communication, if I don't know about an event how can I attend. Not all SE sailors even know that EMSA exists, much less that there is a website with race info. The masses are simply left out and uninformed, those in the click have all the info.
And lets not even bring up the subject of race management and what happens to a newbie if his boat gets damaged, his fault or not.

Please relax. I know both of you and you're both reasonable people and your hearts are in the right place....I think perhaps you're getting lost a little in the anonymity of the internet and (a far to easy to do) mis-understood ideas and methodology.

Maybe I should have been more clear. I don't think we intentionally steer new people to our fleet. It's just that we have been on some of the older boats and moved on to what we feel is a more exillerating ride. I think sometimes we assume that it is more exillerating for the new folks too. So my temptation is to enlighten them when I should be excited about their Hobie wave adding to the number of participants.

Don't make him get out the squeegee!

Zan,

You are right on here and this is what we talked about last year. I agree that this concept was misdirected at the event.

Jake,

I'm up for it again depending on the dates. I'll bring my own toilet paper since I am an butt!

Well said. Props to Trey, Jake, etc. for all their hard work at increasing regatta attendance in the SE.

IMO, preregistration is critical. New sailors will not pack up their boats and drive long distances to regattas unless they have some sort of idea what they are going for.

what if 1/2 the entry fee's went to getting bikini models? It works for boxing, nascar, football, basket ball...

PS i have felt ostracized, outcast and shun at events... and thats just my birthday party for starters!!!

Dave, I agree...Words... It's all that I have left.

On the Chesapeake... we were forced to shut down the open class for next year's Gunpowder event.... Only three F16's bothered to show for the May open class event this year. The goal is to keep the regatta alive so we hope that if it becomes Hobie Only and Syracuse moves their date to the fall that the three open boats will be replaced by a few extra Hobies.

I would prefer to use words then the action of killing off regattas and class starts.

What's left for open class racing is:
Va Beach's fleet 32 Open class race.
Rock Hall Open class (which will really be hobie 16's and 18's.)
Corsica and Cambridge... (ditto class participation) .. One of which will likely be killed off after this year because of a conflict with the 16 NA's and just not enough interest to keep the regattas going.
The only other Open event is the West River Pumpkin patch. which is a handicap race between three one design fleets at the club.

Bottom line.... No new sailors... No new sailors on old race boats... No sailors converting to one design boats replacing those that retire. Fewer racing sailors active on the bay.

A new sailor does not mind getting beat in a game he is just learning... I assert he resents being marginalized and not feeling included in the racing when the attention is focused on the magic and superiority of the 7 boat one design fleet while he putters around in the 5 boat open class fleet of dead boats like his.. So he is "inferior". No matter how friendly... the sailors are... he will feel unwelcome and not likely to come back.

A sea change is needed.... The sailors ... NOT the OA's. need to decide how best to keep the sport accessible.
I assert that we must agree to group every one together and race what you brung and then score it one design. Otherwise... the scene just gets smaller and smaller year by year. It means that we one design sailors have to give something up...

From my vantage point... the "stronger" the one design fleets have gotten... The fewer the number of racing sailors we have on the water year after year. Although we have one design fleets... nobody is remarking how healthy they look!

Here is another event scored just like the Tybee... Overall on handicap and then in smaller fleets... all PHRF handicap.
I am equally sure that each of the 35 sailors wished that the other 34 were sailing a boat ... just like theirs!

Down the Bay Overall

Fleet Results

But...
The three guys in PHRF C are racing Donnybrook the fastest boat on the bay... maybe one day.. they will save their time and correct out.... Racing against everyone keeps the little guys coming back.

No one in EMSA pre-registers. They play the weather, and show up when its good...bunch of fair weather pansies!

Todd, you and Jack need to kiss and make up, but no open mouth crap....dont you remebe we our conversation over Mexican trying to get him into an A cat?

Next catapalooza idea. No rocket ships! leave the N20, A cats, F18's and any other fast and overly complicated boats at home. Lets see some H16's, and whatever else we can drag out that might suit our new friends better for thier learning curve.

I think that's just you Dave. Or was it all of the Columbia crew? Could it have something to do with being scared to leave that pretty new clubhouse?

I was looking at boats when I first moved up to the Dallas area an was told IF you don't have a Hobie, you CAN'T race. That has been going on here far as long as I can remember. I am glad now I am moving back to Div 6 and PRAY someday we get the Dike built back. Will we see he days of B fleet and 100* local regatta? NO! But I think we can accept the new guys know matter WHAT they sail or how old there boat is. We need to bring as many new people in as we can and share the "sport" we love. After all it was the thrill of FLYING across the water and flying a hull in 79 that first got in into the sport, BECAUSE I got a lot of DFL at first and still loved it.

Doug

I assert that because you were part of a big group.... the second fact... did not matter to you!

If we can't get big groups of one design boats... we need to create big groups that race each other so people belong and feel welcome.

So why make a Div one type of boat only? They call Div 6, Hobie Nazi land.

Doug

I am an old cat sailor 64 years old. I still sail a 1996 Nacra 6.0 and have not raced since I was 60 but still sail almost every weekend and enjoy following the forums. I think that most of you that have voiced an opinion should go back and reread everything and ask yourself if you were one of those that had their boat in the back yard or were a new sailor is this what you would want to do with your precious spare time. It truly sounds and seems like most of the fun has left the regattas, when before that was the main reason we went sailing. If you want more people to join you will somehow have to control the cost. No everyone has the same balance in the checkbook. Would it be fair to say that it is now considered checkbook racing?

They call it Division 1 because it is Hobie Division 1, always has been.

Who's "they"? And, wtf are you talking about?

I do sincerely think you are confusing yourself with the rest of us!

You make a great point with a terrific idea...that's what I'll do. This Catapalooza, I'm bringing a Hobie 16 to sail on.

Jake

Got that nick name a long time ago Lee! If you are not Hobie, you don't race is what I was told by Fleet 23 when I was asking about boats in the area. That is why I look forward to getting back to Div 6.

Doug

Naaaaa, just that pretty new wife of Dave's taking up a little extra time.
At least Erin sails . . . Kinda nice to have Erin and Jeri taking turns handling the stick on my Mono, They have steady hands on the tiller and we get more time to drink. . .
Cary
SEACATS MARTINI TEAM

What about having a "Social Director" type person at every regatta, to welcome any newbies, introduce them around, answer questions, help them get registered, hook them up with someone with experience if they need help stepping their mast, etc??

I was reading all these posts and thinking back to my first cat regatta, at which I had NO IDEA what I was doing. If it had not been for Brian Karr and Tammy introducing me around, and all the others who helped me set up my boat, showed me how to use Beach Wheels, loaned me their beach wheels (I was going to back my boat down the ramp off the trailer, because I didn't know any better) got me out to the starting line on time, etc, etc, etc. I would have probably left in disgrace and never returned. They made me feel welcome, loaned me a spray top for Tom when it started raining, they could not have been nicer!

Every Fleet should have someone designated as the Social Director and Newbie Welcome Committee. Brian and Tammy did it for our old Nacra 5.5 fleet, Gina McDonald does it for the F16 fleet. Every fleet needs a "Go To" person to get the newbies pointed in the right direction, I think. And to introduce the Newbies around to the Old Heads.

Jack, I know plenty of asswipes.

You Sir, are NO butt! Jack took it upon himself to introduce this Newbie to Vintage Auto Racing, and thanks to him, I'm hooked. Now I just have to convince the wife I need another toy! Jack, if we had more guys like you doing the same thing for catsailing, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Somebody has to take it upon themselves to bring in new blood.

But really, we should each try to bring in at least one newbie every year, right? Sell them your old boat and buy a new one. Win-Win.

Brian Karr single handedly (well, with Tammy) developed our old 5.5 Dead Boat Society, remember? He got me to sell my old Hobie 18 when he found me a great deal on a used 5.5

We need more like BK and Jack! And more social directors at the regattas like Gina McDonald.

Thanks for all the help and fun, all you Social Directors.

This really isn't fair; bringing up this one-design argument again. It's the racers' choice: You can attend a one-design regatta and find out if it's really you or the boat, or you can travel to an open regatta and just have fun. Either way, it's the racers' choice. Let this whole thing alone; let the racers go where they want to go and don't shoot the RC that's trying to fill the bill for what the racers' want.

ACTUALLY I agree wholeheartedly That Regattas are expensive. After the Gas and the Food and the vacation days you burn, Then come the regatta fees.
But Don't Blame the Regatta Organizers.
I know WE try to keep costs affordable at Tommy Whiteside, but by the time you get a Tee shirt and breakfast for 70 people two days in a row, and preorder 100+ meals and hors d'oevres and pay the band, It all adds up prodigiously. Oh, There's also BEER expenses. All in all, $40 barely covers it. And just to put in in perspective, there are only 3.5 active SEACATS left that somehow pull this off every year.
BUT, It all gets done, usually at the last minute with the help of Columbia Sailing club and Lake Murray Yacht Racing Asssociation and Lake Murray Sailing Club and every favor we can call in and every sponsor we can beg.
But the first thing is to get the newbies out.
EMSA CLASS RULE SUGGESTION Why don't we as a DIVISION Vote to give the first regatta free to someone new. I'm not saying we automatically give them Tee Shirts and Hats and Dinners, just a free venue to race, it costs us nothing to make the offer. Just invite them to come join the experience and see if it is for them. If they want Hats and Dinner Tickets they can buy them before or afterwards (Most folks will) But let them sail in the event without a fee just to get them on the water and see if they like it.
Just my Suggestion. We need to do something different. BTW, I commend the KEOWEE BWYD folks for taking this to the extreme with this weekend's event. Way to go guys!!!
CARY

Timbo:

I agree with you 100%, When I started racing in 79 Hobies where all there were, but over the years I have always tried to help with what I knew. I would see someone on the beach looking at the boats and take them out. Are help them with there boat, I did it far the joy of passing on what I had learned in 30 years of sailing. I would even take my boat out and shadow them. Trying to help them trim or get out of irons. We where a family and everyone was welcome. Who cares what type of boat you have, we are sailors and we love the sport. I use to win a lot of trophy's, but now it has been a while. But I still race and sail because I LOVE it and will till I can't hold the tiller any more.

Doug

Is Dave the 1/2?

Hey Tim:
#1 Can I have yer F-16, or will you need it to sleep on the tramp when you ask the wife that one more toy story. . . . .

#2 Seriously I had the same thing. Showed up clueless at Spring Fever 11 years ago, missing a Forestay Chainplate for my H-16, Was gonna turn around and go home, Nigel took me to Alex who found me the part, That's why I'm still here . . .
Kindness of a stranger welcoming a new guy to the sport, We all have to take that attitude to build it back.

Jeez, I told a few folks that I was called an butt today.

Now there is no proof.

No TAWD, it's you man, it's always you . . .

All right Jack,
Your an butt.
How's that. I aim to please.
Tawd

Am I an honorary 1/2 Seacat. Which am I Sea or Cat or maybe aCa?

Thanks Pal!

I even added a little happy face for ya.

why do I always get thrown under the bus? I miss 1 year of sailing and this is the crap I get.
Im taking it out on yous guys this weekend, watch out!

It's because you went A cat Dave! We all know they don't want anyone else at their regattas!

Hey, I'm joking here, I totally get it and even support the idea of A cat only regattas. It's their game, if they only want A cats, no biggie. I know some guys get their knickers in a wad over it but I don't mind and I don't feel -left out- because if I really wanted in, I'd buy an A cat. I support these guys all getting together to talk about...A cats. I get it. It's a development type class and they want to see what's new, who's done what, how does that work, etc.

AND, having stumbled upon an A cat only regatta here and there, they have always been very welcoming to me and taken time to show me all the neet new stuff they are doing. I think it's great really.

And I understand Hobie Cat wanting to run Hobie Only regattas, again, that does not piss me off at all.

I get it.

Join the HCA and buy a Hobie and you too can play. I wish people would not get so "Offended" by such regattas. If you want your own regatta, like Ding has been saying, Put up or shut up.

The A cat guys have done plenty of -Put up- and I applaude them for it.

I may get an A cat someday, please don't hate me for it...

In the mean time, I'm happy to go to -ANY- regatta, no matter who is puting it on. If I were to have an F16 only regatta here in my back yard, would you hate me for that?

What if I don't have room in my backyard but for about 10 boats? But, not wanting to be a Dick, I open it up to everything, and 30 boats show up, and 20 of them are pissed they've got no room to set up?? So am I a snob for not allowing all the other boats?

I don't know Dave. I heard somebody down the street from the club was thinking about watering their lawn. I hope the sprinkler doesn't keep you away.

Sorry. Just bustn' yur chops.

Hate ? No. But it would go against the basic line of thinking that is at the core of F16 sailing.

Of course an exception is made for a national or world championship.

Other then that we are open class boats and aim to increase enjoyment by following the addagio "more on the line is better".

Wouter

"we are --open class boats-- and aim to increase enjoyment by following the addagio "more on the line is better".

WTF?

Speak for yourself Wout. I'll start with the Open Class when there are not enough F16's to make a fleet, 10 being my personal cut off.

And I like to start with the F18's or A cats if there are only a few of each of us, as we are pretty close to them usually, but if they are having their own "thing" going on, I won't be upset if they only want F18's or only A cats on their start line. No big whoop.

More is better of course, but I prefer enough of each (10 or more) to have our own starts. I'm sure they feel the same way.

Because it makes us laugh... duh dude.

So what's your recommendation for Kelly Park starts?

I actually speak for the basic premise on which the F16 class was formed. It is the same one that sees 2-up and 1-up F16 crews competiting directly with eachother without a "cut-off" as you put it.

Of course, the RC of a given regatta can decide to do what ever they want (kiddies course anyone ?) but the F16 class will never alter the premise on which it was founded. And that is "inclusiveness", not "divisiveness".

I'm not saying anything about "being upset" when the other classes feel that they need to protect their 10 boat start from the F16's. Some rather be a big fish in a small pond.

Wouter

Does anyone think that the thousand or so N00bs reading this or any other thread on Rick and Mary's site where we're whining about rules or complaining about other classes or seemingly complicating the whole cat racing scene is going to attract new sailors? I don't.

I actually had a guy from my yacht club who used to race cats in the 80's comment about how much drama he sees online within the cat sailing community (mostly on SA). To quote him, "You guys seem like a bunch of whiny little bi***** nowadays."And, "It doesn't seem fun anymore." Maybe we should stop the drama if we want to attract more sailors?

J

Not much whinning at GYC. http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/

Our only problem is attracting a H16 fleet. That and we only have two or three slips left.

In a thread titled unwelcome... It's interesting to look back at how the US classes got their start and how the sailors looked at being "welcomed" at a regatta (or not) in the begining.

(IMO Welcome is not personal... it's more about do you and your boat fit in to the racing scene)

So, when you are the new boat on the block... and want to come play... How do you get your start?

Historically, 4 current classes got their start in the USA about the same time. F18 (Tigers) F18HTs, F16s and the Nacra 17.

I think it is interesting to see how the class game plans played out with respect to open class racing and their one design programs.

The sailors formed the NAF18 organization and tried to finesse the measurement rules before getting completely aligned with the international class. Fundamentally, they figured the international appeal of the class coupled with US Hobie and Nacra dealer support would make them a sure winner and the clear dominant class. They held to the traditional approach of "start to race small one design fleets" and grow the numbers through one design racing. In fact, Hobie decided to really enforce this and Hobie Alter jr declared in a letter to the hobie classes... the Hobie racing classes would be the H16 and the Tiger in the future. They put in place their Hobie only policy for regattas they ran a year later. This divided the F18 class into Tigers and everyone else (who were obviously unwelcome). Since the idea was to quickly build a one design fleet... in a sense... if they got their one design group of three or four boats they were self contained and as true believers... they were sure to quickly grow to 10 or more boats. But, in many areas, they were pushed back into open class to race because of low critical mass. When they could not get OD race.. they were welcomed back into the open fleet.

The original class members in both the very new F16 class and the new to the USA F18HT class looked at the USA scene and saw the same problem. No critical mass of racers in most areas of the country. They also thought they were competing for slightly different niches of the US market then the F18 class. They took two different approaches.

The 18HT class thought that critical mass of racing sailors for one design racing on any spinnaker boat would be be very difficult to achieve in any geographical region. (The Nacra 20 fleet had not been able to make it happen after several years) Since they rated about the same as the Nacra 20's, the solution was to race in open class against the other small spinaker fleets and they would also organize an East coast racing schedule of one design HT events using separate existing events. They pioneered the fleet trailer idea (now used by Hobie Div 11 and the West Coast A class Sailors) They figured that the Worell and Little America's Cup initiatives would give the class lots of exposure. So, they welcomed racing in the open class fleet and then tried to add separate new events (EG, St Petersburg and Sail Newport regattas) for one design racing.

The F16 class saw the same problem of no critical mass and since they had no local builders or well funded international dealers. They adopted the grow slowly but surely through open class racing. They trusted that one up and two up sailing, even up would pay off in the long run (just like the Dart 18 class in Britan) and since they rated about the same as the F18... they saw the future as racing in open class and against the F18's even up (or handicap.. whatever). The had no pretense about getting a quick start to one design racing which would immediately divide them into one up and two up groups and were happy to be welcomed into the open class fleet.

The Nacra 17 class grew in Michigan and replaced the 5.5 uni OD fleet and drew from the N20 and F18 sailors in the region and they followed the CRAM model of one design fleet racing but also scoring against the rest of the open class fleet in the CRAM regattas. In most areas of the country, the F17 class is welcomed in open class.

The clear looser was the F18HT class. They could not maintain the energy or organization to compete locally in handcap buoy racing, the East Coast One design Fleet Trailer program and compete in the major distance races and the class cratered.

The F18 class did not take off and become the dominant two person high performance racing class in the USA as it clearly is in the EU. The Nacra 20 and the Hobie 20 maintain regional racing programs and in their core areas eclipse the F18 class. In several areas, the F18's are forced to compete in Open classes or very small one design fleets. They are strong in Canada and the West coast. Its fair to say that the international success of the F18 is very slowly working it's way through the US... eg New England seems to have flipped to the F18 in the last year or so.

The F16 class has more or less stayed with the run what you brung (one or two up)in open class and the more boats on the line the better philosophy. At the class's most successful event (re turnout) to date this year at Gulfport. They started and raced one up and two up in a fleet with F18's (although they did not report the scoring that way.)

Being welcomed at a regatta means that you and your flavor of boat fits in and you are racing against the crowd....

When you hear... Well... even though you started with me on your Prindle 18... I am only racing the other Hobie 18's...
You get the idea... you are just not welcome.
ditto when you hear... Well... the F18's started with us... but I assure you... the Nacra 20's were not racing against the F18's.

If you hear this conversation around the beer keg... somebody is sure to feel not welcome... (even if you keep their beer cold and topped off!)

You know that's a real easy excuse but I think it's bull. Last time he sailed was the eighties and doesn't sail now 30 years later because we are bunch of whiney b!tches on the internet come on man, that's not why he's staying home. As with any competive sport this is the baggage that comes with it. Anytime a group of people are passionate about something there's going to be heated exchanges of opposing ideas and complaining, it just is what it is.

Sailing is a GIGANTIC pain in the a$$ and if we didn't love it there are million things we could be doing and yes riding a couch is probably on the list. Some of us caught it bad but most don't because it's just not worth the hassle.

The eight hundred pound elephant in the room is, there are sailors focused on the competition and sailors where the competition is not all that important and these two groups of sailors have very different goals and trying to satisfy both groups can leave both unsatisfied.

You can see the evidence of this divergence with the A cat fleet and I'll be honest I don't hate what they are doing. So, is this were are heading to satisfy both sets of sailors?

This weekend, we have a couple of sailors that don't care to buoy race, but want to come out, sail, and hang out. Should we do the monohull thing and offer a cruising course? (yes).

It's an idea worth floating. I'm sure Mr. Scott will weigh in he does seem to be dialed into the other focus. He and his peeps are the A cat fleet at the other end of the spectrum.

You're right, that's not why he doesn't race cats any more, but it DOES influence his willingness to make it easy on us when we ask if we can use the club's resources and have a start at his events.

They were his words and therefore his perception not mine.

J

Thats definately a lame excuse! The chatter on the web is what keeps me interested. I learn from reading others experiences.

I love sailing my boat, I don't really love racing my boat. I typically am the only boat on the water where I sail and miss the crew that used to exist and sail with me. Racing is the only place I get to sail with others. So, to enjoy the company of other sailors a racing I must go. I realize that a certain understanding of the rules is necessary to race but I have no intention of learning every little thing, much less yelling it out on a race course. I also understand that lack of participation means no B or C fleets to compete with. I make every effort to avoid conflict on the water, giving right of way whether it is justified or not.
My answer to this question is: forget about the serious racers and make the event fun for everyone. Mix it up! Sitting and waiting for the next start is boring, what could we be doing between? Maybe hull flying distance comps, trapeze 360s, flip and right speed trails, drop apples in the water that must be picked up by the crew with their teeth. I convinced my wife to go racing based on my experiences in the early '80s, she was very disappointed. Now not only is she not interested but she resists me participating as well.
I will be cat sailing for as long as possible, racing is just not a part of the attraction and is not neccessary. Racing must be fun or recreational sailors will not spend their money and time on it, too many other options.

Windy drives the point home about how different these two groups are, and trying to satisfy both at the same time may not be a solution that is workable. Different events for the different groups on different weekends. We host two significant regattas with our local club, Hargar the Horrible and the Kelly Park River Regatta. Both regattas are very fun but fun for very different reasons. Hagar the Horrible is an event like Windy describes and KPRR is a full on race regatta. Very different vibe and mindset between the two events.

Are there two different groups of sailors that participate or is it the same gang?

Exactly What are the ACATS doing Dave?
All we are are the old guys who got tired of hauling backbreaking boats up the beach, who got tired of searching for crew, Who like to sail FAST, Don't mind welcoming a boat someone built in his garage, and still like to sail a one-design class.
Is there some perception we're doing something wrong or exclusionary?
We're more open than anyone except the F-16 fleet, only in that fact that we can't sail 2UP as an option.
I couldn't sail my 5.5 as an F-18 even though it met the measurements. You can sail a homebuilt Woody or an LR3 in A-Class.

It's rare anymore that one would feel unwelcome at a regatta.

One thing I've noticed. Our local Monohull fleet has a Leukemia Cup every year. Our participation started to dwindle in the bouy racing. So they started a long distance course on Saturday for folks that wanted to do that. Participation has soared. They had 27 boats in the distance race and only 4 in the spinnaker division of the bouy racing. Which is a complete turn around.

They do a reverse start like the mug race. So no big starting line problems.

Maybe we should try this as part of our regular regatta's? Might draw more people just to come out and cruise the course and see how they do. If you think it will take away from your bouy racing, it doesn't. The serious racers still seem to choose the bouy racing.

PS. The "distance" is pretty short. For Cat's I'd recommend under 20 miles total depending on wind and direction.

Mike Hill

There is overlap but how much I can't be sure, and I'm thinking there may not be all that much, I suspect you think differently.

Speaking for myself, I fall into the "serious racer" bucket and I'll probably pass on the flying the hull contest and such heck I can't attend the all the race focused regatta's I want to go to now so those types of events (for me) get a pass.

Ask yourself why Andrew Scott and his crew won't drive the 30 minutes (probably less) to race with the GYC folks (good friendly group too), and I'm pretty sure you won't catch the A cat crowd doing power reaches with Andrew and his peeps. I'm really thinking these two groups are really quite seperate. The common ground is the party, everyone loves a good party.

Does someone that considers themselves a serious racer trade a race regatta for a non-race regatta? Can a race and non-race event coexist at the same venue?

The SEACATS used to have 2 "funsails" a year. Bothe distance "races", but no trophies, nothing serious, just take off and sail. New Years day is still kinda that way, but just fast boats have shown up recently.

When and where do we want to start something going again?

Cary the Acat fleet has several A cat only events a year. That's all I'm saying I wasn't taking a shot just making an observation. It appears to be working for the fleet too.

Please explain: I couldn't sail my 5.5 as an F-18 even though it met the measurements

Oh Cary, for the record... an A cat is probably my next stop. Hopefully it's going to be several more years I love where I am now.

I wasn't trying to present a loaded question - I really don't know what crowds attend either regatta.

I’ve been watching this thread and have almost commented a few times but have stayed out of it. But, I feel like I need to add my 2 cents.
I would still consider myself a “new” sailor. I’ve only been sailing for about four years now, maybe a little more or less. I’ve only sailed a Hobie 16. I bought my boat from a buddy’s dad on a whim, before I had ever been on one or knew much about sailing. It is still one of the best purchases I have ever made.
I love to sail recreationally, but as of last year I’ve been bitten by the regatta bug pretty badly. I’ve attended Trey’s race in Raleigh, Sail the Bay twice, the Virginia Beach Version Race, Tommy Whiteside, Spring Fever, and the Duck Cup. With the exception of the Raleigh race they are all 3+ hours away from where I live. That being said, I will continue to attend these regattas because I am made to feel so welcome and that’s why I will continue to load my boat, fill my tank, and drive to all of those places again and again. I’ve met several of the people that are posting on this thread, and from my perspective they are all A+ dudes. Whether they have helped me rig my boat, given me a little advice, or let me drool over their immaculate high performance boats as they sit by my junker 16, they have never made me feel unwelcome. What I love so much about these regattas is that everyone is a sailor first, which boat you sail is a matter of personal preference. The last Sail the Bay was the first out of all the regattas I’ve attended that I wasn’t in dead last place. I have the sailors at these regattas to thank for that. It is their encouragement and help that motivates me to keep attending and try to improve as a racer.
That being said, I don’t know what the answer is to get more new people on boats and attend regattas. I do it just because I love it. Like someone else said on this thread, it is a lot of work to sail. I think that alone turns off a lot of people. I’ve been trying for years to convince all of my friends to buy a boat…. none have. Sailing takes a certain amount of dedication and time that some people aren’t willing to give.
But, before I make this any longer I’ll sign off by offering my opinion as “one” newish sailor out there showing up to these regattas. I have been made to feel very welcome regardless of who I am racing against (ie. Open or one design) or where it is located. After I have become a better sailor and have done this for a few more years I may have a different opinion about the whole one design or open class debate, but as for right now I am happy to go places where I feel like my 86 hobie and I fit in and where there are folks that jump at the opportunity to help out a newbie. See you guys at the Duck Cup.

Ding:
I'm not trying to be confrontational.
A-CLASS On a local level we're just finally glad to have built a class that has 5 boats showing up on the starting line again.
_____
Nacra 5.5 SL/spi to the best of my knowledge met the specs for an F-18 but would not be grandfathered into the class since it was not originally manufactured as an F-18.
________
Also if your F18 crew weight and sails don't match, ya can't race ,only that rule doesn't alway apply to everyone. . . and I'm not explaining that one, If ya don't know about it you might not have been paying attention.
I really hate that this is on topic but is several issues of this thread all at once.

James may have hit the nail on the head. If you arent into sailing, hanging out with a bunch of people who are infatuated with it might not fit your bill. Also, some new people grew up getting a "participation Trophy"....Sorry, you got to suffer a lot of defeats to start winning in sailboat racing...still doing alot of it myself.
Some people we just cant help into our sport

Cary, get back to work! Or go change my tires!

As for the 5.5 thing... you can build an F18 in your back yard and as long as it measures in it's good to go. So, if the 5.5 measures then I don't see an issue with it. If I've missed a rule please point it out.

As for the crew weight and sail plan, yes that's an area of contention and depending on event the wiggle room will vary. If you got screwed and it was me I apoligise for that, if it wasn't me then I can't address it. I can tell you this, I've never sent anyone home that had a weight and sail plan issue. I gave them the stink eye, but they sailed. If you felt that a team should not have been on the water you could have protested and they would have been flicked.

If your talking about Mosley's non stock sails that never got measured... he was always allowed to sail and yes he got a boot in the nuts but he was allowed to sail.

If the regatta is nationals the rules will be followed to the letter of the law though, no wiggle room.

Jake, I'm coming this weekend to BWYD also known as the couples regatta. I will most likely not buoy race day one, in order to get ourselves accustomed to my new boat, but will race day 2. No need for a cruising course for me, I will most likely just "screw" around on the lake, and pick your brain

By the way, I come to regattas because it's just too much fun and would not want to miss out... But honestly the support of my wife and her interest plays a HUGE roll, and if she was not interested in sailing, the regatta people, camping, racing and crewing it would not be such a given.

So getting the significant other interested and having something for them to do (if they are not crewing) is in my opinion important to cat sailing and regattas.

Man, this is out of hand, thrown under the bus again.
My sails came from an F18 certified sailmaker(Landenberger)
Dont put me in Cary's fight, he's talking about something else entirely different.

Bjorn, cant wait to see the new boat!

Nope, your Landenberger sails would have to be measured. We allowed sails that came stock with the boat to be 'certified' (this was a US thing) but not after market or third party sails. I'm pretty sure Traci told you that, she was a by the book kind of girl.

Dave, Im not going to argue about this on this site, but that aint how it happened.
Had Traci told me that, i would have felt pretty unwelcome at those regatta's though....

Did I mention I had an A Cat now?

I drove 3.5hrs to go to a day race which turned into a drifter about a month ago and the club kept announcing over the PA system that club members must prepurchase their tickets for the club member only dinner that night. Luckily us non members were able to buy a sausage sandwich before the 3.5hr drive home. When we organise our regattas we make sure there's cheap food and drink so that every one knows they're welcome and if we get blown out there's still a buzz around the club
regards

Ding:
Mosley doesn't own an F-18. He ain't in this discussion.
I been stewing on this for a while, The only real problem here is the preponderance of RULES.
I read the RRS cover to cover twice a year at least, Still learning them. Too damn Complicated to promote fun. . .
Ther are so many rules for so many situations, how can a new person EVER make sense of it all?
Lunatic Ravings edited for Content
Maybe a good Solution would be to Get Sammy and Valter in a locked room together somewhere, Just enough beer to make it friendly, and throw out every rule that can't be understood or just pisses someone off cause it's stupid or too damn complicated.
That would fix us.

Hey, how about this a deterrent to fun, random, recreational sailing:
Trying to get a rating for my F31. There is a "local" organization that provides these ratings. In order to get a rating I need my boat weight (not easy) and then have all my sails measured by a sailmaker - or competitor. Not worth it for one or two regattas a year. I guess it makes sense if you are serious about it, but I was going to get a rating to do one regatta. I think it would take a full day to take the sails off, either take it to a sailmaker (and how much do they charge?) or waste someone else's time, then put them back on.

yes... it suddenly occurred to me that you guys have to do this (I think) for a lot of the class events, but seems super painful to me.


Another thing that makes me not want to do regattas is the yelling that occurs at times. I crewed on a J29 for a year or so for fun, club level, races. The amount of screaming and yelling and name calling made me wonder why the hell anyone would voluntarily put themselves into that position.

And yes, there are so many rules (which there has to be I think) that I can't keep anything straight. I can sort of figure them out if I can think about it for a few minutes... but I chose to bail in on-the-water situations when I don't have the time to think about it and feel 100% certain I am in the right.

This board is turning into a bitch-fest...and I'm not talking about the posts.

AGREED, there need to be Rules otherwise we'd just have Sailing Anarchy(pun intended, couldn't resist)
My whole point with that rant was meant to point out how far out of scale we have gotten with rules that sometimes it overshadows the enjoyment with the complication of the competition.
For all us Serious Racers . . .
I bet we spend more time tuning and tweaking than just out on the water for a day's good time . . .
Wasn't that what made it all good in the first place?
On that Note, Jake's Right, this thread has taken a wrong turn,
I'm out of here.

What's up you bitches....

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I figure I'll put in my 2 cents.

I'll side with Todd about the unwelcome part... Everyone I know is willing to pitch in or offer advice to help a newbie. Even the rock stars are willing to jump in....I've seen Nigel step a mast for a neophyte and Smyth party hardy around the campfire. I'm sure all of us has tried to make newbies welcome.

Part of the problem has been that most of us old farts that have been around the sport for years have moved on to more performance boats.. Hence more expensive boats and it's decimated the entry-level fleets. With only performance type boats, it appears to a newbie that we are more elitist.

I sail a F18 and a H16... Being from Raleigh NC I'm also in the middle of 2 different groups of sailors. The SC/GA group is mostly made up of performance class boats and there are very few H16s at most events. The Virginia group still has a strong H16 fleet and the performance class is mostly limited to A Cats.

If I were a newbie showing up at a regatta on my beat up H16, I would not be as intimidated if there were several other H16s there.

We just need to do a better job of finding those persons with those boats and getting them to events. Most of these folks don't realize that these events... aka parties, aka learning opportunities exist.

The next time you see someone out on an old beater boat, take the time to tell them about the events coming up in your area and tell them about this website and your regional site with schedule.

I just want to add that if you need your bus or large truck to be made immobile ,Dave Mosley is the man boy for the job. He's the best tire chock I've ever seen. He usually volunteers for the job, and is great at it, because ,apparently he lives under a bus. I want my traps back.
Tawd

I think Mike Hill had the answer.



Mark, there are cat sailors in the RTP area. How about a local distance course run for fun? Low stress. Bring your own food. Just sail? Seems to be a few local cat sailors.

IMO, there are a number of questions that are getting mixed up on this thread. Get the questions right, the answers are easier. One is how to attract participants. The other is how to make a good regatta.

If there are too many "sea lawyers" who enjoy lots of rules just for a good argument, that's a separate problem. (That reminds me of the old saying: Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.) It's a separate problem from attracting new talent. And, if there is too much tight society, that's a another different problem. I can't think of any way to put a lot of beater boats on the same course as a bunch of A cats and make it fun...

How about working on increasing the size of the chase boat fleet to take out more spectators? (Bikini's?)
Increasing the number of spectators would add to the fun at the liars contest? (Saturday night)

But that is the premise of what you do at Spring Fever....
1 course, 4 starts and 12 classes.

I agree with your two questions though.


Obviously to attract participants... you can't have "unwelcome". (or what ever you want this term to mean)

Geez, I don't know where some of you sail, but I've NEVER felt unwelcome.
In fact, last year I showed up at a one day regatta late and was planning on doing some rec.sailing when they practically forced me to enter the remaining races. Before I knew it my boat was being dragged down the beach by four guys, it was all I could do to just keep up! It was good fun and I actually beat some guys on points (which was good for some laughs at the bar!
This type experience is typical, and even in my mono days it would not have surprised me.
I don't take part in many races these days, which is a shame. OTOH, If someone from the club were to call me up I would have a hard time not signing up... Then again, I really am hard pressed for time and my work as a pastor and minister means I can almost never race on Sundays, which is when my club holds most of their races.

Dennis

We do need to do another Sweet 16 or simular format race at Lake Jordan.... (Trey we miss you in Raleigh.) Maybe with the lull in the regatta season over the summer, we can pull something together late July or early Aug.

I'll be glad to head something up... I know there will be discusion about Catapolza at the BWYD regatta this weekend. Maybe we can tie this in and make it Catapolza North. Sorry, I can't make BWYD, but fill me in if you want to include a second Catapolza RTP event.

Obviously you got your life priorities all wrong. Time to go agnostic!

Mark, I'm in Graham and could help with something at Jordan or Falls etc. There is a FX1 in Burlington that would be interested, a Fox in High Point, Kyles 18 in Mebane, JD's 16 in Garner, you and Lloyd, and quite a few folks around that don't usually go racing. Get the NCSU crew involved and you've got a race. I have a motor boat that could be a chase boat. Let me know, e-mail is ncmbm@hotmail.com

Sounds like a great start... There is also Garland in Henderson, David Devon and Bill Crowell in Durham... James A in Fayetteville. We may also get some of the Wrightsville Beach boats there. There is good pool of boats in this area, we just need to get organized. Anyone interested.. please PM me with your name and email address.

Mark,
I'm definitely down to get something going in the area. I'll send you my e-mail when I get home from work. I'm sure some of the Wrightsville guys would come, they're just not as into the lake thing. Let's get it going, let me know if I can do anything to help out.

The Isotope fleet is also local to this area and I'd bet we could scare up a few boats. I'd love to come if I can fit it into my schedule. It's short notice, but you could piggyback on the Mayor's Cup (Lake Townsend - Greensboro) or Governor's Cup (Kerr Lake - Henderson) Regattas.

Regards,
Eric

Dennis, as a non-believer I never got this.
"He" says sunday is a day of rest, but not for "his" employees? Isnt that a paradox? When do YOU get to rest? On Monday?
You coming to Texel? The only regatta where everyone is welcome and the last finisher gets a heroes welcome (seriously).

I do understand that some feel "unwelcome" at regattas.
There used to be a 50nm long distance race which in the beginning was a 50/50 spread between "slow" boats (Prindles, H16, Nacra 5.2/5.5, etc) and "fast" boats (F18s, N20s, Ts, etc).
One of the problems that arose was that due to the huge speed difference it was getting harder each time to guarantee the safety of all the competitors.

oh no....not here...that' political thread is bad enough!

There is no way to guarantee the safety of any competitor. Are you sure that's what your meant to say?

And it's an F18 driver too... Yes the letter is being drafted now.

Maybe "guarantee" wasn't the right word, "manage" would be more appropriate (not a native speaker, sorry).

Anyway, the wording doesn't really matter.
The point I was trying to make was that a field of 50 cats spread out over 20nm is a lot harder to oversee rescue-wise than one spread over maybe 3nm.
(I should probably mention that this race was held in the spring when the water is still quite cold and you really need RIBs at both ends of the fleet.

The closing speeds and "blind spots" from the spinnakers of modern cats is a serious danger. It is only a matter of time until that is demonstrated.

Somebody had to say it!

Yeah I knew what you meant... it's Friday and I was just busting your balls a bit.

I believe a pretty good demonstration of that was provided at Tradewinds last year. N20 vs. Wave. Proved just how tough the rotomolded boats are! Thankfully, no one was hurt.

We are pretty sure we will have two separate courses next January for the Tradewinds.., one for the non-spin and one for the spins.
Rick

Well, hey. Thanks for the response.

I am just politicking for somewhat regular low-key get-togethers. At least to begin with.

Good but casual communication about location and time of some very simple distance races at Vista Point, Kerr, or Gaston, or wherever without the stress of big parties, complex events, and complex rules fits me.

We have groups of cyclers that get together and ride the Raleigh greenways here. Eat lunch somewhere and then pedal home. No big deal for money, organization, or rules -- but fun.

I think that if you don't build the fleet first, the rest of these problems -- rules, regattas, and hospitality -- stay unsolved.

Here ya go.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=180260#Post180260

I'd be up for some casual stuff. My TheMightyHobie18 is old and heavy, but would be fun to put it out there, sign me up.....

At 115 kg per Wave (a 13 foot long boat) the outcome could hardly have been different.

I'd be suprised if they don't pour concrete into those hulls.

Wouter