Unwelcome.... re Waves

Wow... just read Rick's editorial in the new Catsailor...

Sorry to hear that the actual Wave Class was tossed from the Hobie Havamega event because they don't follow the Hobie rules.

Nothing subtle about this message. They are clearly hanging out the "YOU are not welcome at our event sign"!

Arent the waves built in the USA?
Wow they are kicking out there own kind, what the hell?

I haven't seen the editorial yet, but I can categorically state that is not what happened. Another case of Mark stirring up **** that he knows nothing about.

The original NOR had the Waves using the IWCA rules. The IHCA had some issues with that, and offered to modify the IHCA Waves rules to allow aftermarket rudders and sails (the only real differences betweeen the rules) for this event. However, the aftermarket sails would need to "fit within the perimeter of the stock Wave sail". In consulting with a IWCA measurer, I was not convinced that that would happen. As the PRO for the event, I didn't want people showing up with aftermarket sails and being DSQ'd because they didn't measure in. Nor did I want to deal with measuring sails.

Hobie Cat (who is still planning on providing a trailer-load of charter boats to the event) got involved and stated that no modifications (including aftermarket sails) would be allowed on the charter boats.

So . . Gordo said "Screw it! I'm tired of dealing with the rule mongering - we'll just run it with the IHCA Rules." - which are different from the IWCA in only the two aspects described above.

Nobody "dis-invited" the Waves.

The HAVAMEGA will be the Wave North American Championship. All Wave owners / sailors are welcome. Hobie Cat is providing a lot of charter boats. You can bring your own boat, but it has to have a Hobie sail and stock rudders.

But doesnt that go against the class rules? ie IWCA?

Why have them compete if they cant use there own set of rules?

It sounds like someone would make an F16 event, and specify you can race in the event, but only TWO up, and the ONE ups wont be able to compete, ie going against class rules.

The "problem" is that there are two sets of class rules for the Wave.

"Rick's Rules" - the IWCA Rules
"Hobie's Rules" - the IHCA Rules

I won't get into a debate on whose rules take precedence where.

The HAVAMEGA is being run with the IHCA Rules.

Most, if not all of the "IWCA" is concentrated on the East Coast, so most, if not all, of those sailors will be chartering a boat for this event.

Hobie Cat is not allowing any changes to the charter boats, so the use of the IHCA Rules is entirely a moot point.

Hmm... You should read the published letter by Gorden Bagley... He is quite apologetic about the deal. He writes

"As a final remark I will say that were it not for the intrusion of one already named individual in all this, we'd be well on our way to a lot more fun than I now anticipate, and I believe Hobie Cat would have sold quite a few Waves in the process."

Why not just run the regatta as originally published using the IWCA rules and have the charter contract state that no changes may be made to the charter boats? The stock Wave certainly measures into the IWCA rules. Those that bring their boats increase the size of the fleet. No measurement required by you as the PRO.

Everybody welcomed!

Let's move from this posturing to the concrete. If you were going to attend the Havamega on your Wave under the IWCA and now under IHCA won't, post here now.

It's time to see who is just talking smack and who's really bummed by the decision. Be counted, post now, be honest.

J

Show up at the Nacra (Performance) North Americans and se if you can race with an aftermarket sail or rudder. The I-20's can't even use a different sail for Tybee.
They are welcome but only as a one design boat. So the sailors are welcome, The boats are welcome, The changes aren't welcome.

That's true, but it's an apples and oranges comparison. You're more likely to make a better comparison using the Nacra 6.0 NE (New England) where the New England group developed a rule using spinnakers outside of the Nacra 6.0NA rules. I do believe they were allowed to participate at the Nacra NA's in their own developed configuration.

The reason the N20 comparison doesn't work is because there hasn't been an upswell of owners who created their own racing rules and developed the class on their own. These Wave guys and girls made that whole class racing thing happen - and I believe there was HCA resistance to racing waves (or at least putting tighter control on sail shapes and sizes so the class could compete on a relatively even playing field with the stock equipment) at the time which sorta led to the sailors developing their own thing.

Havamega is Hobie turf and they certainly have the right to do what they want, but I can see why a few folks are steamed at the decision. Why NOT allow Wave racing under IWCA rules?

What I dont comprehend is all this talk on this forum that sport is dying etc and that we should as much as possible to bring more boats on the line, why limit yourselves?

I say the more the merrier. Its a HOBIE wave for crying out loud. Its saying NO to your own kind.

IMO very lame and not good for growing the sport.

Right. Which is exactly why I want to get a count of who is not going to attend because of the change. Let's not speculate. Let's see some hard numbers. Who'd we loose? Anyone?

J

Its simpler then that.

You invite the IWCA sailors to compete. Months go by... You change your mind and then say NO you are not welcome. Then it seems that you throw the regatta organizer under the bus as if it is his fault.

But... I am sure the 5 sailors (total) who raced a Wave last year in a single NAHCA regatta were consulted, 3 of them are class members so you have their contact info... and you are speaking for them. Right? The core of the NAHCA Wave Class are coming to the NA's... right J?

You would be better off just apologizing to the sailors, the regatta chair and the class pres who promoted the idea and saying you screwed up in the beginning. Stand there and say... We, the controlling power behind the class figureheads believe it's better to stand on principle of SMOD for the future... then grow the regatta and support sailors in the present.

Mark, you have a wonderful ability to twist facts to stir up ****. I'm seriously tempted to put you on my "ignore" list - an ingnominy you would share only with Wouter.

Who is the "you" in your statement, Mark? Me? The IHCA? Hobie Cat? Gordo? I didn't throw Gordo under the bus - if you read his e-mail, you'd know who he blamed it on.

Nobody ever said that the Wave sailors were not welcome at the HAVAMEGA. They are most certainly welcome - in fact, the Waves will be the only class with charter boats available at the event.

I repeat Jeremy's challenge - who was planning to go to the HAVAMEGA and will not now because of the rules change?

When I post, I speak for no one but myself as owner/ president of Surf City Catamarans inc. As supporting dealer at this event, I would like to simply know if this decision is going to result in fewer sailors in attendance; or if it's just another episode of Days of our Lives, brought to you by people that like to make-believe conflict.

Gordo's a good friend and does more for the sport than pretty much anyone here. He's going to read this and just be bummed that this discussion about his regatta is becoming a pissing match. There are a lot of phone calls and personal emails when a decision like this has to be made, and most of the time people that know about 1/4 of the story are the ones to post publicly.

I want some hard data to support my ideas on where I stand on the topic of this thread. My business spends a considerable chunk of change at the two largest catamaran manufacturers in the U.S., a big one in Europe, and a small one in AUS. Needless to say, I can call the owners or Presidents of these companies and voice my opinion from a businessperson's point of view, and feel they will take my ideas into consideration when making decisions. I want the facts to support what I say when I call, not some hyperbole.

J

OK, let's stop dancing around the real issue here and discuss that instead. As I understand it, the Charter Waves will have Stock rudders and Stock sails. Fair enough. But the Other Waves might have "Special Sails" and "Special Rudders".

OK, why not have 2 divisions then? Stock and Non-Stock? 3 more trophy's to hand out, that's all it would take, everybody's happy, you could even turn it into a "A Fleet, B Fleet" type thing.

Hey, some people just want to buy a Wave and go racing and -not- have to buy a custom sail and custom rudders too, think of the added expense.

You guys in the Non-Stock division can spend thousands on custom square tops, carbon rudders, etc. if you want to, but don't make it so that a guy on a stock boat won't be competitive.

And obviously, if you are going to allow custom sails, you have to Measure them. Somebody needs to step up and do it, that's all.

Matt... YOU seemed to blame Gordon Bagley for the final decision with this statement.

So . . Gordo said "Screw it! I'm tired of dealing with the rule mongering - we'll just run it with the IHCA Rules."

You are right... I was not in the loop... you were... You said Gordo did it. This surprised me since that's not consistent with his published letter.

If you have an electronic copy of his letter... please post it..

His letter to Rick White published in Catsailor paraphrasing says... Dan Mangus, Hobie marketing director did it and I am sending a message by changing the NOR as they insist. So he throws Dan Mangus under the bus.

J
The last line of the editorial.. Says "Most of the IWCA members have written me and opted to NOT attend ...."
Since Rick is the IWCA class president he might know and I will wait for his comment.

Now were getting to my point. I want to know how many. I want names.

J

Any chance someone could add a link to Rick's editorial?

Gordo is the event chairman. He is ultimately responsible for the decisions made regarding the event. I will not speak for him - the "letter" was the e-mail published by Rick in Catsailor. That is Gordo's statement and apology to the president of the IWCA regarding his decision.

If I understand the concept of the "Wave Class" rules correctly the custom sails are based/sized on "crew wieght". (isn't the F18 class the same way). I'm not sure why there are different rudder blades that are "Wave Class Legal".

Let's review some "History" ...

When the Hobie Wave was introduced (10 years ago???) the HCA-NA did not allow or include the "Waves" in "Hobie Racing" ... so the Wave Owners formed their own Class Association and developed their own rules. And their rules seem to be working for them.

So now the HCA-NA wants to welcome them (the Waves) into the HCA-NA after ten years of ignoring the Waves... but on only the IHCA terms???????

I hate hypocrisy .... and I can not post here in "proper company" my response ..... but it involves an Internationally reconized hand-gesture using the middle finger w/ a two word verbal utterence. I'm personally getting REALLY tired of the IHCA sticking their noses in when it suits them w/ their version of "One-Design" philosophy ... which (IMHO) IS NOT "One-Design" ... how do you explain sails that vary by 4-6" in both boltrope and chord lengths, but they all had a "Hobie sailmakers patch" on them and were thereby class legal ... or "OD" boats that varied in wieght by 10-15%!!!!

AND FYI: Last weekend @ RHYC a "US Sailing Instructors" course was held ... there were individuals from five different Sailing Schools/Programs that were using a beach cat in their programs .... do you care to hazard a quess as too which "beach cat" they are using ???? It ain't no H16!!!!!

We need to make these "Wave" sailors welcome .... part of the "Hobie Family" and the larger Multhull community. Like it or not the Hobie Wave is the "de-facto" current entry level boat for a large percentage of "new" multihull sailors.

Ignore them at HCA-NA's peril ....

Harry Murphey

You're history is a little off, Harry.

The Wave was introduced in 1995. The IHCA has had class rules for the Wave at least since 2001 (the oldest version of the IHCA Class Rules I have on my computer).

This issue didn't just surface today when the Catsailor came in the mail.

And to be fair to the IHCA, they offered to waive the rules regarding non-stock rudders and sails "if the sails fit within the perimeter of the stock Hobie sail", using the measurement procedure outlined in the IHCA class rules (5 random stock sails used to determine min / max dimensions).

The rudders are kind of a moot point, since only rudders made for the EZ-Loc rudder system (stock in the past couple of years) work with the EZ-Loc system.

Note that RRS 87 requires the permission of the Class Association (IHCA) to change class rules.

This is the very thing that pisses me off about todays boat manufacturers. They have totaly forgoten about the customer, the one who pays the bill. How can you call anything one design where the measurement is taken by using the average of 5 different sails? Where is the quality of not only the tolerance but the material itself? If I owned a new spinaker and was doing a race up the coast that I was spending thousands of dollars to do not to mention the time off of work and my spinaker came apart, I would go balistic. When the Hobie Tiger went up to 19k because of the exchange rate, why did the infusion go up as well even though it is built here in the states? Why does a Nacra 20 mast cost 11k when a far better spar can be made for under 5? Actually I know the answer to that one. So they can change to mast to aluminum and claim it is to keep cost down. This is why I would never buy a new boat from Nacra or Hobie. They play these little games at our expense and just what do we get in return. I disagree with the parts arguement. I have found that aside from the hulls themselves that almost all of the parts are from a subvendor. But if you buy it directly from the sub you are no longer class legal even though they make the same part for the manufacturer. And as for regatta support I don't see that either. Hobie has disowned our little fleet 8 just because we won't exlude non hobie boats. I guess they would rather watch the sport die due to lack of participation then allow their boats to compete against a different brand. Just seems as much as we spend on our boats we should be treated a little more like the reason they are in business. Enough with my rant, I am sure I will eat crow over it later.

Matt,

So the Hobie Wave was introduced in 1995 .... that means 14years (four additional years) of the NAHCA/HCA-NA not allowing "Waves" to come to a Hobie event. How does this help your argument/position???

It appears obvious to me that the IHCA rules are not working for the large majority of "Wave" competitors. Please explain to me how a 200lb competitor can compete w/ a 130lb competitor on a boat w/ minimal sailplan adjustments using the same size/cut sails. That is EXACTLY the same reason I sold my H16 and purchased a TheMightyHobie18 ... I was 225lbs at the time and generally competing on my H16 at a crew wieght of +360lbs .... in "heavy air" I could do ok ... in light air I was smoked ... can we say DFL!!!!!

So I can understand and agree w/ the IWCA's rule of varying the allowed sail area by crew wieght ... it is the same idea as the F18 class uses currently.

I do not agree w/ stupidity for stupids sake ... the boatowners should be able to determine their class rules that they wish too race under ... not some distant group that is in the pocket of the manufacture who wishes to ring out and controll every last penny spent by boatowners on their boat.

And there is nothing saying that the Hobie Factory can not make different size sails for different "Wave" crew wieghts.... except the "Hobie Factory" who (most likely)doesn't want to inventory several different sized sails for the Wave.

This is very similiar position to that of the Hobie Factory on another issue, as they will not produce and inventory a medium blue tramp for the TheMightyHobie18 which is the most popular color tramp ever on a TheMightyHobie18. (but they do produce medium blue tramps for other boats so they have the material availible) I was personally told by Matt Miller that he needed to reduce inventory costs and it doesn't matter what I, the customer wants. For twenty-five years I've worked hard to keep my boat looking good and now because of IHCA rules I'm being forced to purchase and install a tramp to remain "Class Legal" which color I absolutely ABHORE, does not match my Magnum wing covers and makes my boat look like a mis-matched "POS" in my opinion. And "Hobie" no longer makes Magnum Wing covers in ANY color at all ... so what are my options I ask????

So I have plenty of evidence that IHCA and the "Hobie Factory" will not and do not listen to the boatowners and customers .... they just do what they want to do ... and we have to live w/ it ... this is just driving more and more people away from the HCA-NA and "Hobiedom" who take their time, $$$$'s and interest and do something else. So we need to be listening to the boatowners since that is where the ideas and $$$$'s will come from, not the IHCA.

So keep on waving that "Hobie One-Design" flag per IHCA rules and see where it gets the HCA-NA ....

Harry Murphey

Neither Colin's nor Harry's rants are completely accurate.

At no time were Waves ever told they couldn't race at Hobie points regattas. The fact that few boats ever show up is not evidence that they are not welcome.

In fact, there was a Wave North Americans held in conjunction with the first Hobie Mega regatta in 2002.

The IHCA Rules Committee is not "in the pocket" of the manufacturers. Influenced, yes. The composition is:

Jeff Alter (Alter Family representative, Chairman)
Doug Skidmore (Hobie US)
Jean-François Collet / Michel Corigliano (Hobie Europe)
Erik Olsen (member at large, Netherlands)
Mal Gray (member at large, Australia)

No link. You would have to subscribe to Catamaran Sailor Magazine and get it in your mailbox. Go to "Subscribe" at the top of this page.

There is no varying of sail area. The sail area is strictly measured and is the same for stock and non-stock sails. The only difference is that the sails can be cut full, medium or flat, according to the crew weight or normal sailing conditions.

At the Wave Midwest Championship Regatta in Indianapolis on May 16 & 17, we had a Gold fleet for the serious (non-stock) racers and a Silver fleet for us casual racers with stock boats. I won the Silver fleet and came home with a beautiful trophy.

We had 7 boats in the Gold fleet, from Indiana, Ohio and South Carolina; and two boats in the Silver fleet from central Indiana. I think this was a very fair way to do it, and it illustrates that the folks who are serious enough to travel will be the ones serious enough for custom sails. I can't afford to travel or buy custom sails, but I love my stock boat and enjoyed joining in on the regatta, win or lose. Since I have a stock sail, it wasn't measured, but I think there was some comparison of the non-stock ones to make sure they were okay.

I overheard a conversation that some of the "serious" racers who wanted to attend Havamega were planning to charter boats but bring their own sails, and that was what got nixxed, so they decided not to go.

I have some photos, but I haven't figured out how to upload them with the new forum software yet. Hopefully a full story will be coming out soon.

No dog in this fight, but. . .when I get bad service at a restaurant, I don't complain, I just don't go back. My feeling is that it's the manager's job to stay on top of this stuff.

You'll probably never know who (whom?) you lost.

J [/quote]

No dog in this fight, but. . .when I get bad service at a restaurant, I don't complain, I just don't go back.
[/quote]

As a manager (not at a restaurant) this is my biggest challenge. Our operation is sizable enough that I don't have the luxury to oversee every transaction and business dealings. When an issue arrises I want to be proactive to correct it, but if I don't know the issue existed, it can never be fixed. I guess I prefer the approach of try to fix it once, if they still get it wrong, then never go back. My wife and I once had horrible service at a Chili's. I told the manager after our meal what a poor experience we had had. I wasn't expecting anything but the manager gave me a voucher for two entree's, free drinks, and a free dessert on our NEXT visit. I was very impressed with move. Now I have a lure to give the service one more try. We did and were so blown away by how great the service was that not only do we continue to go back, but I ended up hiring the waiter to come work for me as a cashier.

off topic - but I made the mistake of getting involved with Harry's trampoline problem on the hobie forums - I suggested
he buy the amish brand being pushed on ebay. - big mistake
not class legal - not made by hobie. funny thing is they are now being pushed in the Hobie Div 14 handbook - see page
23

http://www.div14.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/div14/downloads/2009RegattaFlyers/D14_Booklet_2009.pdf

Damned if you do - damned if you don't

I feel like Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along"!!!!

How is any of this promoting Catamaran Sailing?

Well, hopefully it gets people thinking about issues before they become serious problems.

Sailing is a lot of fun! There must be some reason people are staying away in droves.

[quote=mbounds
Nobody "dis-invited" the Waves.
[/quote]

I am a member of the IWCA and even though I wasn't planning on going I still feel dis-invited.

As far as the description of how it happened, I would classify it as FUBAR. This should have been worked out, in private before the NOR went out.

I was told, at some time, that a NOR is a contract and in the "gentleman's" world of sailing, we honor our word. If that's not good enough we should always honor our contract because we might have pre-registered a lawyer with time on their hands.

I will have to remember this the next time I buy a boat.

Matt,

Some observations first ... and then some philosophy

First, So the "Waves" are welcome .... then WHY are they not showing up? You may think they know they are welcome but the facts indicate differently. Something is "Not Working" for the Wave owners.

Secondly, The IHCA commitee has six members ... three work directly for a "Hobie Factory" ... the fourth (Jeff Alter) is tied directly financially to the "Hobie Factory" .... I believe (if I've done my math correctly) that is a 2/3 voting majority. And, where's the HCA-NA's "Member at Large" .... don't we rate????

It is a fact that many Hobie competitors on H16's and TheMightyHobie18's would take their new "Hobie Factory" sails and have them "Re-Cut" in the 80's and 90's. I believe Elliot-Patterson was one of the lofts doing this at the time. But since there was a "Hobie Factory" sailmakers patch (Actually "West Coast Catamaran") the sails were considered "class legal" and everyone "winked" at these sails at the time.

Also, My experiences have been largely IDENTICAL to Mr Casey Collins observations/experiences.


Now for some Philosophy:

There has been a theory put forth about the intelligence of a group of "average Joe's" vs a panel of "experts". It states that a group of 50 "average Joe's" will arrive at a correct solution a greater percentage of times vs the panel of "experts" (by a large margin in fact)

Secondly, I believe in "self-determination" ... or at least having some say/input in those that DO determine my fate. So when are the elections for the IHCA Commitee??? In fact, who picked these guys and "made them boss"??? In my opinion the IHCA commitee has made some decisions that have been proven to be extremely detramental for the overall long term health of our sport.

Matt, you are trying to defend a indefencable position my friend, analysis of longterm trends like HCA-NA membership and regatta attendence will show you this. The "same ol', same ol'" that the IHCA is promoting is not working. And sticking "one's head into the sand" is not going to work .... The IHCA must change (and soon) or the HCA-NA will soon perish.

I'll close w/ this point .... it is BECAUSE we care (alot) that people like Mr Casey Collins and myself "stick our necks out" and voice our opinions and try to instigate "change" .....

Harry Murphey

I have already been called an “butt” this week for butting in, so anything worse will be [cxxxxxd].

I AM however, a member of HCA-NA though.

Firstly, several folks have indicated that these discussions should be kept private so as not to scare away new folks, etc. I disagree; this is a forum and nothing reasonable should be off limits. It is certainly better to air beliefs, opinions, wisdoms, experiences, and such openly than to hold back because of feelings and sensitivities. It makes us all the better for it.

It is probably not a good idea to call each other names though.

Secondly, I know enough about Matt Bounds to recognize he is very knowledgeable and professional in all aspects of his devotion to cat sailing. Matt is “by the book”, as he should be, when he is PRO. His opinion in this is strictly following procedures and regulations as proscribed by proper authority.
His facts about the Wave history are probably accurate.

However, I believe Rick and Mary were given de facto authority to organize the Waves when HCA or Hobie didn’t feel there was an interest in racing Waves. It really doesn’t matter anyway and I’m sure IWCA will remain vibrant and healthy regardless.

Next, it is also true that I think the way HCA, and probably more accurately Hobie Corporate, have administered the ONE DESIGN aspect that Hobie Alter so passionately embraced, has been less than stellar. The boats do vary enough that you have to somehow get the right combination of sails and bits to optimize your equipment. Sails are a big variable, and you really don’t have much say in what you get. With no published plan there is no way to really even tell, just the Hobie Cat patch.

Now, I think there is an ethical if not procedural question about changing the NOR after it has been posted. In particular, when such a long period has transpired, it is hard to justify a major change in the policy. Folks have made plans and a dealer has made a substantial financial and logistic commitment. I would say that the change in policy is damaging and disheartening to all concerned. I see no winners in this scenario.

Though not a Wave sailor, I could be. I think all of us on this forum have become aware and appreciative of the Wave happenings and they deserve more respect, especially from their manufacturer.

To all:

NORs can and do change. It is far enough in advance of the event, that it is fair.

Now, if you were planning to come, are you really going to stay home just because of your sails? What does that say about YOU?

All this discussion about sail cutting is a joke. When I look at the results of major events with 100% supplied boats vs. BYOB, a funny thing happens... all the really good sailors find a way to win under both formats.

If you're really interested in growing the sport, show up and race.

Mike

Any chance of getting Hobie to charter sails to folks that don't have a stock Hobie sail but were planning to attend? Might not be ideal for all, but maybe some would consider that a reasonable compromise.

sm

I don't know Mary. I'm afraid you'd do a flyby and dump cochi frogs on my house if you got my address.

Come on H1616, pay up the $20 and get the mag like the rest of us do. You can use your real name, and they will not make the connection.

Still waiting for the reply from Jeremy's request for names of noshows, due to the NOR change. Good example of "put up or shut up".

Caleb Tarleton
two H-17's
plus six Waves and six H-16's at Sail Sand Point, all Class Legal

As I'm probably the only cat sailor in West Maui it wouldn't take Mary too long to make the connection.

I've still got the $500 waiting for Nothing But Nets.

Can you say public relations disaster ??

I'm reminded of the worst advertising slogan of all time,

"Nothing Sux like an Electrolux"

That having been said, Hobie Cat Company could have required that charter boats be used with all the factory supplied equipment and been well within their rights as the manufacturer/supplier.
Who could you rent a car from that would let you swap in your own engine for the weekend?
( Kind of apples and oranges I know, but hopefully you catch my drift)

If which sail someone used was that big an issue to someone, they could bring their own boat rather than take advantage of the convenience of a charter boat.

IHCA could have given a one time pass on using the IWCA rules.
If necessary, the event organizer could have scored the waves in two fleets if the non factory sails were that big of an issue.

To make the change after the NOR had been published and the waves invited to participate with the understanding that IWCA rules would be used is kind of like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

Obviously hard feelings and negative publicity are the net result.

Cut me I bleed Hobie, and it hurts me to see the company alienate a whole group of sailors.

The company has made it clear by their actions that the are much more focused on the recreational market i.e. sales of yaks and rotomolded boat sales to rental outfits and resorts.

I for one think the company and the HCA-NA are too intimate.

HCA-NA needs to stand on its own two feet and run its own business.
If necessary, we need to buy our soul back from the company store.

The Hobie Cat Company makes decisions based on what is in their best interest as a business.
Hobie Class Association of North America needs to do the same.

Stephen C

Quite the ego you've got.
I'm reasonably sure no one gives a rat's as$ who you are.

I have purely a sailing question. Consider this quote:



Are the stock sails to be supplied by Hobie for the charter boats so different or so terrible that any sailors, "serious" or not, would NOT attend on the basis of the sails alone? Do they really think the outcome will be so terribly different? A bad craftsman blames his tools. A good sailor always does well, even on a scrappy boat (identical boats!).

Who would carry such a chip on their shoulder that they would not sail, given the chance? These folks must have a chip on BOTH shoulders! The fabled non-attendance must be based in simple anger and has nothing to do with the fun of sailing, the fun of racing, or fun in life.

Back down, go sailing, and race by your IWCA rules when it's your regatta.

Have fun!

Time to watch Ridgemont High again. Spicoli says, "All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine." Man Law

Gordon,

The Division 14 booklet welcomes all advertisers (want to buy a Trane A/C unit?), we don't "push" product. Catsailor, our largest advertiser this year, can sell whatever they want, it's a FREE country.

Did you notice Bobby's ad mentioned carbon and hybrid arribasticks? not class legal!!!
Did you notice the link in the Division 14 website to the dreaded (JUST KIDDING!) Division 6!
It's all there for a purpose...to promote cat sailing.

Stephen,

I like what you said, and I agree. On the other hand, why not show up at the NAC, sail a chartered, brand spanking new boat, with a brand spanking new sail? Seems like a pretty level playing field to me, maybe even with a percieved advantage.

As someone that is responsible for cooking over 7,000 hot dogs at regattas, I have some thoughts.
All the players are trying to do the right things.
The trouble with actually stepping up and doing anything means mistakes will happen and not everyone will be happy.
I have had to make tough decisions while being involved with big events. It never makes everyone happy.
THE GOOD NEWS.
Gordo, Matt and company are working real hard to promote a big event.
Rick and Mary are, and have always, done a huge amount for the sport. Waves are now in the conversation.
I like what I'm hearing from Jake and company with the Catapalooza with newbies and entry level boats.
I've been hearing about the demise of HCA for a very long time. I know most of the people(VOLUNTEERS) involved and can tell you they are good people trying to do good things.

There is always next year to try and get it all right and have no one make any mistakes while we all get along and agree on everything.

Sarah and I working on a finish at Madcatter: I think squirrels were actually blown out of trees that day.

This was exactly my question/ point in another thread as well. This type of fight hurts us all.



I'm sorry you feel that way, but how can you be dis-invited to something you weren't going to in the first place? You can't. Seriously, I'm still looking for the hard numbers. Who did we loose. I'm probably the 3rd in line as far as getting new people on the water (it's the basis of my business model) behind Shaunna and Gordo here on the West Coast. As soon as a get a hard number, I'm making a call on behalf of the Wave sailors. Just let me know.



We don't know if that's the case Harry. As of right now, it's all hearsay and hyperbole. That's what I'm trying to find out. Is this a made up problem or legitimate.



That is one of the most brilliant paragraphs ever written on these forums Mike. Thank you. Take note, that type of attitude will grow the sport.


Thanks Caleb. That's exactly what it is. Time to put up, no make-believe. Not a one yet.



I will personally see to it that that happens. If anyone wants to set something up and work out the details, email me: jeremy (at) surfcitycatamarans.com



Many great points David, Thank you.

I agree, someone is going to have to back down. And since Hobie is generously offering a truck load of Waves, can't the IWCA just concede this once? Just for the sake of having fun at this one event? It doesn't seem like that big of issue to me really.

If you're really into the racing and the parties and the camaraderie, then show up. If you want to start some drama for drama's sake keep posting some rhetoric about an event that you weren't going to in the first place, don't even own that class of boat, and in some cases don't even own that manufacturers boat, therefore you should have no vested interest...other than talking smack. You are hurting cat sailing.

J

Okay, this is not what was intended and its a pretty big f'ing mess right now. Just so you know: This was ALL ME. I started it, rode it out as far as I could and tossed in the towel.
Here's how it goes: I have always thought that the Wave is the answer to alot of issues coming up in the multihull world. At 43, I tend to be one of the younger sailors almost every regatta I go to. The average age of US is moving up and up, and double trapping, finding crew, long boat set up times, arms race mentality etc.....wears you down, takes the wind out of your sails (so to speak) and causes you to play golf rather than sail. Enter the Wave. Trailer to water in 10 minutes, Under 5k (whatever...) new out of the box, NO crew, big soft squishy seats, A boat old guys/women can sail for cheap and take the complications out of life. Rick White has seen this. A hell of a long time BEFORE anyone else. I have only met Rick on two occasions, but I read all this and I like what he says and does. The IWCA is the result of not getting exactly what they wanted from the HCA. Everyone knows that. I asked Merrick, as a parting favor on his last couple days as Chair, to contact Rick and tell him we want to work with them however we can. He did, and we made some headway.
After HavaMega was conceived, we decided to ask if we can jump into bed with the IWCA on it and a few other events and I got a thumbs up from someone with authority and the ability to see the big picture here. So, we promoted the HavaMega, MWE and a few other events as HCA/IWCA joint events and there has been alot of talk and good to come out of it. The funny thing is, the only ones to bitch are people that have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Pisses me off ROYAL. Anyway, I get a call, at home, late at night, from the IHCA president on some satalite phone thing and he's asking me what the heck we're doing out here with the Waves, because he's got someone in friggin' Europe or somewhere bitching to him about what we're doing here. I am like,'what is the Wave Racing scene like over there and in Aus?' and he tells me that We're IT. Okay. Now this is ridiculous, because there is NO Wave racing within the HCA to speak of and if it wasn't for Rick and Co., there would be NONE anywhere except in the BVI on race week or whatever. So I explain that I am trying to work with the existing racers, playing by their rules (to not make anyone feel unwanted or differnet) and he's good with that. I am asked to not make this a permanent thing, but a short term alliance is acceptable. Couple years down the road, we'll have to move back to the IHCA rules, but I figure, what the hell. Cross that bridge later.
So, we're back to HavaMega. We work out with HC the charters, and get ready to start REALLY pushing the deal, then I get a call about some semantics regarding the NOR. (It doesn't matter by who, so lets not get into mudslinging or any of that ****, I just want all of you to know what the real story is). They want the NOR to reflect an 'exception' to the racing rules and want me to draft a proposal the IHCA rule committee and go through a bunch of red tape (this is after I said I intend on submitting a rudder change allowing EPOs on the Wave if so desired, then started that shitstorm) and then someone came up with the idea of running two starts, stock and modified and then something else and something else. Gordo and I were on the phone, and decided that the IWCA deserved our respect and admiration, nothing less. We decided we were NOT going to write up an exception (that HC said we could do) and we were NOT going to segregate boats. Screw it. Its the friggin Wave. You can put whatever sail you want on the thing. Its a Wave. Blow a tack, miss the B mark (that old guy that kicked my butt in Florida did that!) whatever. NOT a performance boat, but fun as hell nonetheless.
So here is where we are, where we started. YES, I am trying very hard to build a Wave Class within the HCA. I was trying jumpstart it with IWCA. It doesn't look like we can work it out the way I had hoped. Gordo had nothing to do with any of this, it was all my idea. Gordo is a team player, and was very insensed about the fact this didn't go the way we hoped.
There really is nobody to blame for anything, its just the way it goes. We hope that the 15 or so Charters we have available get used up by our friends out east, we meant no harm in any of this and apologize for the way it turned out.
Matt Bounds has been very helpful in this process as well, and his thought on sail measurment etc....are accurate.
What we have done recently, is approved a Jr. racing program for kids up to 16 years old racing Waves at our Youth NACs. Now we have 2 classes (including the 16).
Also, we have a proposal for the 2010 Wave/14/17/18 NAC for Ocean Springs Yacht Club, near Biloxi we're hopeful will be approved shortly. Wave HCA-NAC in the south is the best we can do right now.
Please direct your comments, anger, whatever to me, Chris Wessels HCA Chair xanderwess@yahoo.com and leave the others out of it. I take full responsibility for this situation.

I don't see what the problem is. If you race Hobie Europeans, you have to use all Hobie supplied parts. Same if you race Nacra championships. Leave all your special bits and pieces at home and race OD.

I can’t believe the HCA is wimping out on this. When we started working on this we had the HCA, Hobie Cat Company and the IWCA all on board. We also fully expected some flack from the IHCA and were prepared to deal with it. This is so completely disappointing to see the HCA once again run into its own political wall. It’s pure cowardice not to stand up to the IHCA. There is only one set of rules being used in Wave class racing on this planet and everyone knows what rules they are.

I started reaching out to the IWCA years ago when I first started as the HCA Vice Chair and soon decided that I wasn’t doing the Wave sailors any favors by getting them involved with the IHCA. It looked like there was hope for a while but I’m back to my original thought. The IHCA is a complete mess. My advice to the IWCA is RUN DON’T WALK.

Cowardice? Intersting choice of words. Wimping out? I don't think that's the case either. All I saw going forward after the pressure started, was ways to alienate and irritate the only Wave Racers on the planet. Everyone has their opinion. I get the One design speech every 10 minutes from someone. I actually had someone say to me that I was fragmenting the 14 class by pursuing the Wave initives. Hello??
I got an email from a guy that said its not fair for someone to have aftermarket, high tech parts on his boat when his is completely stock. I got an email from a guy that said its not fair for his 250lbs self to race against a 110lb kid with the same sail, when he can have a fuller sail make to compensate for the weight difference and make the race more fair (with no weight min needed on the Wave)
So, what is the right answer? What do we do? Lots of people pissing all over this (et tu, Bobby?) But I have yet to hear anyone say anything really positive or helpful in trying to figure a way to grow our sport and make it more accomdating to our aging, recession battered masses. I am of the opinion that the poison was better than the cure in the case of HavaMega and all the BS that would ensue. Seriously, all this ****, and how many IWCA boats would really have shown up anyway? What, 50? Come on.

We agree on this Chris. I just wish you had told the IHCA to take a hike. Someone needs to.

You know, as well as I, that you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

Oh I don't know, it just may be that time.

I know you are as POed as I am and I don't mean to lay any blame at your feet. I've just seen this kind of thing happen too many times before, and I haven't even been around that long.

No good deed goes unpunished.

How much are you getting fed? Is the food worth the ensuing B.S.?
There's a line somewhere ,they'll figure out they've crossed it once it's too late.

That's the problem, we don't know. No hard numbers posted yet. Still waiting.

Thanks Chris for putting in the hard work, you're truly in the middle.

J

OK, how about everyone calm down for a minute and think about what Chris said...

"I have yet to hear anyone say anything really positive or helpful in trying to figure a way to grow our sport and make it more accommodating to our aging, recession battered masses."

Here's an idea. Everyone who is SERIOUS about moving forward in a POSITIVE direction needs to drop their personal agendas and think about this.

Anyone in IWCA who was planning to come needs to contact the organizers and be recognized.

Hobie Cat can supply charter sails for the event that could be offered free of charge to the IWCA sailors.

IHCA, HCA-NA, IWCA and Catsailor and anyone else with a dog in the fight can chip in the cash to fund the charter sails as a GOOD FAITH effort.

Load up the sails with all the sponsor logos you want, who cares, if you're serious about getting more Waves racing at big events within the Hobie class, here's your opportunity on a silver platter.

Problem solved.

Mike

We have made a significant investment in our Youth Programs in the last year (much more $$ than usual) and that money comes from somewhere.........so keep that in mind when encouraging me make decisions that may affect some 13 year old somewhere who could have had a wicked good time at some NAC event, but couldn't becasue we didn't have a superior grant program at our disposal. Life is give and take. So is sailing.

If Chris would have told the IHCA to take a hike, there would be no charter boats, and I bet, based on an educated guess, there would have been 4 Waves show up. So 4 vs. 15(charter), that's what I'm thinking at this point until I hear something different.

J

Actually, there is a 3rd major difference between the 2 competing sets of class rules. IHCA has a 120 lb. minimum crew weight. IWCA has no minimum.

Interestingly, the Wave is a youth class, yet the minimum crew weight makes most youth sailors too light to race under the IHCA rules.

OK here you go. The IWCA is doing it right.

The root problems in the IHCA are

1) too much manufacturer control and
2) too much conflict of interest with so many classes under one association.

The IWCA avoids both problems.

What's the difference between this and Hobie not allowing any 16's with aftermarket sails.. If you weigh 250 pounds then maybe you shouldn't be racing a Wave.

The majority of Hobie 16 racers don't want to allow after market sails, the majority of Wave racers do.

OK, you guys want some hard numbers. (I do) I just got off the phone with the regatta chair and he said that there was only 1 IWCA racer that RSVPd, not registered, just RSVPd. Just ONE.

Moot point.

J

What is the IHCA position on RECUTTING (reshaping) stock sails for the weight challenged?

When was the last time the IHCA dsq'd anyone for a recut stock sail?
and how did(could) they prove it?

Certainly NOT when I sailed a H20 in the 90's, the recut sails were clearly faster than uncut,
and sailmakers had a nice business recutting sails.

That is true, and that will be fixed asap. Thanks for pointing that one out.
I know, I brought that up about the recut 20 sails (I had one with my 20 for a while) and peoples mouths dropped open. They couldn't believe it. You have a good point too, they would need to prove it.

Truth isn't always determined by majority vote.
At some point you have to just follow the rules and stop trying to change every little thing you don't like, otherwise you subject yourselves to a big, slippery slope.

And what problems are you referring to? As of yet there have been no problems concretely identified.

J

Well if we're done with this topic we could easily do another 10 pages on Appendix B for starters. You should probably start another thread.

Having read this thread from end to end, i am just glad i sail in the A-Class where everything is different. In tornados we used sails that measured in, but were not one design. This may change though and that would be a shame. If I sailed Waves, I would want the ability to sail with a fuller sail for weight reasons.

Gentleman,

This is not really about the HavaMega anymore .... this about us, the members of the HCA-NA being able to control our organization and impliment changes that we feel are needed. My analogy for the IHCA is that they are acting like a "ruling class" ...ie: Royalty. We, the ruling class knows whats best for you peasants, and must keep you sefe from yourself. Now we sent all the "royalty" packing here in America a long, long time ago ... I remember learning about something called "The American Revolution" ... so this kind of organzational structure doesn't work for too long here in the USA. It just goes against our basic "belief system".

Jeremy, I'll ask the question that nobody whats to hear or answer about the IHCA's biggest policy ... has the IHCA's policy of "Hobie Only" been a success??? Has Hobie sold more boats? .... Has regatta attendence increased because of this policy? Has the HCA-NA's membership increased???

Let's ask the Hobie owners south of Div11 (Maryland).... there isn't a Hobie "Points Regatta" south of Maryland down to the Florids Keys and across the "Gulf Coast to the Mexican Border .... Gulfport YC, Florida is BEGGING for a Hobie Fleet and can not find anyone interested. Why? There used to be numerous Hobie Fleets in this very large area and now there is how many active fleets since the "Hobie Only" Edict???

Matt and Brucat please do not give me any BS here .... prove me wrong by stating FACTS!!!!! I do have all my old "Hotlines" w/ the racing results listed, do you want me to dig them out? .... Digging your heads into the sand will not change the realility .... walking around telling me (and others) "you are just thinking negatively" will not change the reality either .... The analogy I think fits best is the story of "The Emperor and his New Clothes". Or I can put it bluntly ... I'm tired of the IHCA "pissing on my leg and telling me it's only raining". The ol' Hobie Guard has to reconize the facts and make changes to the IHCA before it's too late. Please note you'll only reconize when it's too late until after it truely is ....

The IWCA members were just "Dis-Invited" from every "Hobie Points Regatta (effectively) by the IHCA. They will not call or E-Mail you ... they will simply just go away and play somewhere else. (And Mike/Brucat, to answer your earlier question, at this point if I was a "Wave" sailor you could GIVE me a charter boat to use and airplane tickets to get to Havasu and I would tell you ...PISS-OFF ... I will not attend and race under IHCA rules, it's the principle. H_ll, I don't even want to race my TheMightyHobie18 under IHCA rules anymore ......)

Chris, Before you get some rule written making it illegal to "re-cut" your sails I would suggest that you ask two questions:

1) What was causing everyone to have their sails re-cut??? Poor quality?, poor design/under performance, no consistencey in performance from sail to sail?

2) What options do I have to fix a "poor" sail if I'm not allowed to have the sail Re-Cut?

I've had 4 sets of sails for my TheMightyHobie18 over the years ... two sets were good .... one set was "adequate" .... and another set should have been re-cut but I sold them off to a friend who is only a "Rec/Beach Sailor" w/ the statement not to use that set for racing as they did not perform well against other TheMightyHobie18's.

Harry Murphey

PS: Chris you are on the correct path, so I'll leave you w/ this latin phrase ... "illigitami non carbarundum" (Translation: Don't let the Bastards wear you down) Please note, the spelling may not be quite correct but it's close.

Spent the day down at Sail Sand Point, www.sailsandpoint.org working on our Waves and H-16's. Can not believe this thread is still dragging on. Finally got my Cat Sailor in the mail, it takes a little longer to make it to the NW. Excellent Editorial by Rick, and contrite letter from Gordo. Both have done extensive things for our sport. Rick has even brought his excellent program to the NW several times to teach us how to race. Gordo, has participated in many local regattas, and always picks up a local youth to crew. Gordo also tried to get us to take our six Waves down to Havasu, before he struck the deal with Hobie Cat. It was just too far, plus our local youth sailors can not take off the time from school.

But, this is a HCA event, and the HCA rules should apply. Rick has done a great job of building the IWCA, and turning the Wave into a race class that attracts sailors of all ages and experience. The HCA Wave Class is primarly to encourage Youth Sailors, and to build the future Cat Sailors.

Jeremy, who has a lot invested in this Regatta is still waiting for an answer. Sounds like there will be plenty of Charter boats. Certainly a great way to take part with a level playing field. Just like a Hobie Worlds, or other events with all new boats.

Which brings me back to some other thoughts on Hobie Cat Co, their dealers and HCA. Since I have been racing,volunteering, and other wise observing this group since 1971, perhaps I can offer some additional prospective. Thru all the ups and downs of their business, Hobie Cat and their dealers have always supported our local Hobie Cat Fleets and their events.

Our Boat Storage/Access yard at Sail Sand Point is full of other Cats, that have not supported their Fleets and now are members of the Dead Boat Society.

Sorry Rhodysail, but I can not agree with your objections. A Class must have the full support from the Manufacturer, Dealers, and Class Association to survive. We will never make it to the Olympic level, but there must be a corporative arrangement to allow our classes to survive.

And to Hobie1616 re your "I've still got the $500 waiting for Nothing but Nets" We will continue our Free Fast and Fun programs, http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm Next ones, Kirkland on June 20 and Mercer Island June 21. As a non profit, we will not ask for money on our free outreach programs to raise money for other groups.
We will however, glady accept donations to help grow our programs and scholarships.

Lastly, Stephen C. "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain" Could that be a reference to our North Americans at Harrison last year? Perhaps on the last race when the Squall blew thru?

Caleb Tarleton

One of the things which the IWCA rules specifically prohibit is a tiller extension. On my Wave, I have the new EZ-Lock rudders, which have very short tiller arms; so I have added a tiller extension, allowing me to sit farther forward to balance the boat. (Something I learned from reading Rick's book.) To legally participate in the IWCA-sanctioned regattas, I removed the tiller extension. No big deal.

Since all Waves came with Hobie sails and stock rudders, couldn't the folks who choose after-market sails and rudders for IWCA racing, simply put their stock ones back on for HCA events? IndyCar racers use different wings and foils for oval tracks vs. road courses. It's just a different set-up for different events.

I'm an advocate of stock boats, because I think it's such a great boat out of the box(es)! But I don't think anyone should be turned away (or dis-invited) who wants to race. Maybe a PHRF-type adjustment could be used for stock-vs-custom, if it makes that much of a difference.

As always, well said Caleb.
Hopefully things will work out.
I like the Act surprised, Show concern, Deny Deny Deny approach. Then go for forgiveness.
Just get all the boats there and figure it among that group.

Calab,

To be truely FAIR One-Design racing the wieght of the ALL boats and crews need to be equal w/ all the boats being identical .... are you proposing that all crews be wieghed and the lighter crews carry wieght to "equalize crew weights" between the competitors??? The IWCA competitors have developed rules that make the compitition fair for them. So why should the IHCA or me a TheMightyHobie18 racer ... or anyone else for that matter be able to tell the Wave racers what the (equipment)rules are for their class. I believe that they have the right to set their own (equipment)rules as any class should.

Pat,

I agree w/ you .... but the IWCA has already done that (IMHO) .... and the IHCA will not allow your suggestion anyway .... (I believe that is the whole point of this thread.)

Now for all you that think HCA-NA H16 Class is true One-Design racing I have a challange for you .... lets line up side by side four H16's, a 1975 boat, a 1985 boat, a 1995 boat and a 2005 boat .... lets wiegh and measure the boats/ sails (don't forget to test that "new" front crossbar for stiffness) .... I would think a tolerence of lets say 2% on all wieghts and diamentions would be reasonable .... (note T's and A-Cats tolerences are below 1/2%).... anyone care to take the challenge???? I'll even bet a $100 that the boats do not meet the criteria.

Bob Merrick and I am in agreement here ... the IHCA is controlled by the manufactures and it is time for the representatives tied to the manufactures to GO .... the IHCA committee needs and should be made up of Boatowners/competitors w/ the manufactures having a roll/input as advisors to the class(es).

Harry

We get around 40 Hobie one-design boats here at every regatta in div 3, the aclass races with the yacht club, the F18 guys in so-cal race with the ABYC,the Performance guys sail off the beach right by my shop with no inclination to race, so everybody is taken care of. I understand that it's different in other parts of the country, but that's how it is here. You rarely hear people from the West Coast complain about the rule, we're all out sailing what ever it is that we sail. If sailing is what you want, there are so many opportunities out there you just have to go find them, or develop them like I am currently doing with the SCYC here locally.

The edict? I'm personally indifferent. It just seems like another thing for people to complain about instead of using the effort to get out on the water and sail. We're about what, 5 years after the fact? It's time to stop the banter and get out there and race if that's what you want to do. If not, just stop the negativity, there's no reason to take everyone down that road with every other post.

For the record:
The motive for this thread is obvious. It was started by someone that has no vested interest in the Havamega or the Wave class, or even sailing Hobies for that matter. Most of the negativity is continued by someone that sails an F16, then furthered by someone that has interest in getting more 16s up to CORK and poopooing the Havamega 16 fleet for personal reasons. I count only one Wave sailor post. Then the thread is finished off by the old anti-edict guard. Nice. I hope everyone can read into the posts here a little bit and see the real agendas.

I hope that the critics here get a taste of their own medicine if they're ever a regatta chair for an event. You're just taking the wind out of the sails of a handful of great volunteers that are trying to do their best for the sport and in particular the Havamega. Very uncool.

J

Support yes
Total control no

Long thread...

Not one actual sailor who was planning to go and sail a Wave yet? Hummm.

I'm the first then.

I plan to go and sail a "stock" charter boat. Personally, I'm happy that some guy is not coming with a jacked up Wave, custom sails and custom rudders.

Yes, I work for Hobie Cat and I also have a personal, vested interest in the Wave because I was involved with the design and did much of the test sailing on this boat. I have NEVER felt it was good to open up the rules on this boat. It is a simple boat and sails very well with a variety of weights... stock. Custom sails are NOT needed and putting glass rudders on this boat is just silly.

As far as personal experience with varying winds and crew weights... I have a lot of time sailing on this boat. I have raced the Wave at a number of HCA events over the years. I have also raced a few events down at the Bitter End YC. They do a week long event each Thanks Giving week on Hobie Waves and Getaways. Last time (last fall) I was down there with Greg Thomas. He's a pretty good sailor right? He is pretty light too. I am heavy. I can tell you from PERSONAL experience that racing stock boats was very competitive. I found that the advantage can go to weight as the wind comes up and I didn't see a real disadvantage in lighter air against him or the various other sailors. The boat sails well AS IS.

Let the sailors skills and changing conditions be the variable.

If there had been any respect for the organizers things would have gone along unchanged.

Here's what the organizer had to say about it.

“As a final remark I will say that were it not for the intrusion of one already named individual in all this, we’d be on our way to a lot more fun than I now anticipate.”

I have so much respect for the organizer of this event. He has done so much for our class it's amazing. This is, in large part, why the recent change is so disappointing.

Then quit rubbing his nose in the big steaming pile. He doesn't deserve it.
J

I’d be surprised if he saw it that way.

Interesting Matt. So can you tell us how many changes were made to the wave by Hobie since it was introduced (tramp, ect.) I have heard some things aren't interchangable on earlier models.
So can I race my 21se at the Havamega? I remember being told when trying to Pre-register for Mid Winters once that I couldn't race since there were no other 21se's comming in 2002. I guess they didn't consider it a Hobie anymore. I was on the list to come race on an FX1 but all this has brought up some familiar feelings for me about Hobie Class Racing and the politics. Then to hear about the drama with a certain team not being able to bring some boats to race in the Tybee (which isn't HCA anyway) because Hobie USA was sqwakin' about it. So in response to Jeremy's direct question, I won't be comming. If Hobie US ever gets a dime from me again, it will most likely be to get parts for a Hobie Europe boat.
Have a Hobie Day!

Interesting... actually... from a N20 sailor? Right? What does the 21SE have to do with this?

Very little has changed on the Wave over the years. Actually... the tiller length is likely the most RADICAL change since it was designed. That made the rudders easier to put down and raise. Sorry... that was mostly a recreational sailors change though. The original rudders are class legal though.

Absolutely Lee! If you show up you'll be my honored guest. And if you give me the names of the person that told you that you couldn't race the 21 or the FX, I'd be glad to talk to them on your behalf.

Let me restate my question just so there's no confusion:
How many WAVE sailors are NOT going to show up to the Havamega that originally were before the NOR change? I am laser focused on getting an answer, so any extraneous argument isn't going to throw me off. Dig?

J

Well you already contacted the three Wave members of the NAHCA class so you have those three sailors commitments.... right?

Matt Miller makes 4.

Below are the names of the IWCA Wave sailors who did the NA's last year... They would be LIKELY folks to race a WAVE.
None of them appear to be regulars on this forum.....

So... your bleating like a stuck goat... or focused like a laser beam or whatever you are doing trying to make a point by demanding to know who was coming and now have canceled their plans...will take some more work on your part...

Oh... I KNOW!.... you might contact the IWACA Class President and ask if he would send out a very nice email from you in which you get to INVITE THEM AGAIN .... or Plan B... you could demand to know if they were coming before and not coming now?

BIG HINT.... (Likely that you need it) IT WOULD BE WELCOMING to write these guys.... apologize, explain and invite again.... Don't try plan B.... It just proves that you are an butt who does not know when to stop digging.

Idiot!

Published on Cat Sailor Front Page for the Last Wave NA's.
HelmName
Leah White
Patrick Green
David White
Mark Scarpelli
Ray Matuszak
Stan Woodruff
Jim Glanden
Steve Abbey
Skip Kaub
Paul Lindenberg
John Mcknight
Sharon Woodruff
Nelson Wright
Stewart Glegg
Bruce Fields
Marlyn Hahn
Larry Ferber
Tom Cottingham
Kathy Kulkoski
Kirk Spangler
Charlie Merritt

If none of THEM care enough to voice an opinion on this forum then why are YOU beating your chest



Quite honestly as I stated in my previous post, I feel that HCC and IHCA have given themselves a black eye by throwing their weight around.

For us as sailors to start tearing one another apart on a public forum is counter productive.

I have met Jeremy, and while he is a Hobie Dealer, he has done a lot for cat sailing on the west coast without regard for the breed of cat .

Mark, I have never met you, so I can only judge you by your words. Your unkind words and name calling leaves a very unfavorable impression.
You might have sent something that strongly worded in a private message and saved yourself some public embarrassment.

Isn't it about time we all toned things down a bit and let the Wave sailors speak for themselves.

Stephen

Thanks man. I've been called waaaay worse.

Why should I apologize to the class exactly? What'd I do? Oh, sponsor the regatta. I was going to go to bat for them Monday morning as soon as I got some hard numbers. There are no hard numbers as of yet. Difficut to make an argument.

Can someone please explain to Mr. Schneider that I have been on the phone with the regatta chair at least 3 times a week for the last 2 months talking about this, and I've called the powers that be twice to discuss it, and endured countless emails.
And can someone please tell me what class Mr. Schneider sails in so that I can make sure the next time they ask for raffle prizes or any manufacturer support from anyone in the marine industry the companies are informed that they may be called an 'idiot' or an 'butt' online.

This is ridiculous. You guys should really be ashamed at your reactions. The 6th graders I used to teach weren't this bad.

I'm done.

J

Wow! My issue with SMOD is not shapes or quality of equipment, but rather the inconsistency with what should be consistant. Cost is another factor as being experienced by N20 guys. My issue with Hobie is there abandonment of Fleet 8 when we opened up the racing to all makes under portsmouth. I race an SX, there is only one other that shows up with any consistency. With the F18's making their own class I need the I20's to have someone to race against. Despite our disownment, Hobie did throw down cash when we hosted the F18 NA's in 2007. They also spoke directly with me on the phone when I was converting my SX to use a Tiger mast so that I could dump the comptip that was ready to explode. They told me it wouldn't work, but they also told me to buy Hobie 20 parts versus Tiger parts and save money.

But, the name calling, and slandering of sponsors, and slandering of the Regatta Chair, is absolutely unacceptable. As the Chair for 07 F18NA's comments like that would have definately caused me to never VOLUNTEER again. If you don't like the way something is run, get off your a$$ and run it yourself. But do not ever slander someone in public who is VOLUNTEERING their time so that others can race. Doing so not only discourges that person from VOLUNTEERING again, but it will scare of other potential volunteers and racers alike, especially the new guys on the block.

I just don’t understand how upsetting the customer became an acceptable business model. This is baffling.

Somebody keeps asking for people that are not going to attend because of the change back to Hobie rules so I would like to say I am one of them. I can honestly say our whole fleet is not going to attend but do not want to speak for anyone but myself.
I race a wave with a North sail and think it is a much better system than trying to keep everything stock. The boat sails much better with the North as the stock is really flat. That is my opinion and points out the need for different cuts as some other sailor might find flat sails to there liking. As for the rudders they are all EPOS which are Hobie stock and nothing else has been changed on the boat. Most thriving one deign classes have this format. Example the Thistles. Not changed for over a half century except for the measured sails from any sail maker and have a hundred boats at nationals every year with some of the best sailors around. In my opinion different sails makes the racing closer than farther apart. Every sailors sails different some like to foot some like to pinch but all like to go fast and need to find a sail that works for them.
This discussion is needed but it is also getting way out of hand. We are all sailors looking to compete have fun and race catamarans.
I wish the event tremendous success, the people who race in it fun and safety, and for the sport of catamaran sailing to grow from it.
I myself know that I will miss not being there but will be somewhere else with my friends chasing them around A mark as close as could be.

Patrick Green Stock Hobie wave #11 North sail...

You'll have to explain what you are refering to on this.

Jeremy,
Thanks for supporting this event like you have. Looks like HCA has kind of put you in the middle of things. When I was doing some support for Sailboats of Bakersfield, I noticed you were doing an incredible job of reggatta support. You are truly an embassador of good will for the sport. I would have to say, if someone is pointing a finger at you calling you an "idiot", then there's three more pointed back at them. I'll be intouch with you off line about things comming up.

BTW, I can't remember who it was that told me I could't race at Midwinters. Whomever was in charge back then, I guess. It was through an e-mail. The resopnse was something like "You will not be allowed to race". I do remember that was a deciding factor for me on choosing which regatta to attend from there on out. When I was in Az, I chose Fleet 42 over the local Hobie fleet 66 because of the "exclusive" additude, even though I had a Hobie then too. I can understand the thought process behind all this but I don't agree with it. It also doesn't supprise me that any fast boat that Hobie sells now has to be designed and built in Europe.

Dissension with in the ranks of the Hobie Only Militia - there is a god!!!!

This horse is dead, you know what to do when the horse is dead. YOU GET OFF

Wow. There is a couple pretty nasty people out there. I said it before and I'll say it again: Leave Gordo, Jeremy and anyone else you want to blame, the kiss out of this. Jeremy is NOT an idiot, Jeremy is truley one of the coolest guys around, and he's doing what he does to support his family and his fun all at the same time. Don't we ALL wish we could do that.
None of this even matters anymore, so move on. Nothing to see here. We have Trapseaters lining up to come to HavaMega, there is a bajillion Tigers, 20 and 17s coming too. You want a large Wave event, then conform to the rules that have been set, and come to the Desert in Nov.
As far as you guys STILL complaining on not being able to come to one of the HCA-NA sanctioned events on your 'insert name here' boat, I don't know what to tell you. It is what it is and other than a few people here and there, we don't want or intend to change it.
Wave sailors: We (HCA-NA) will CONTINUE to offer One design racing at ALL of our approved events for the Hobie Wave. And the 21 too. 3+ boats gets you your own start. Anyone tells you differnt, please have them contact me or Matt Bounds.
Please stop. There are a few posters on this thread that I thought I was friendly with, but some of the comments made I am starting to take personally, and there are just too many nice people in our Hobie-universe and sailing group to deal with this name calling and bullshi#. Let it go. Be nice. Have a happy day with whatever boat you have. Be glad you have the means and ability to even have a great hobby like this and let people do what they are going to do.

Chris
Thanks for all that you have been doing everyday.
When I see posts like have been put up here, I go back to what mom said: Consider the source.
Another question I ask myself is: How do they know that?(did I miss something?)
When guys are not involved with the HCA or go on personnel attacks or have sailed in one regatta in ten years they lose credibility with me and really don't merit a response.
Keep up the good work.

It's unfortunate for the future of catsailing that so many people here would rather lash out at people and refuse to let go of the personal agendas than step forward to make something good happen. Very unfortunate.

I gave a reasonable option to resolve the issue at hand (Waves at HavaMega). Only one person even made reference to it, and again, showed how willing they are to make a personal agenda get in the way of event success.

I don't think we need to look at edicts, manufacturers, or anything else to understand why catsailing is on the decline. This thread shows the real issues all too well.

Mike

Sorry, I read your idea brucat, and if there are people serious about it, I'll talk to Gordo and see what kind of arm twisting I can do. Its a good idea, and didn't mean to gloss over it.

Hi Chris,

You, Jeremy, Gordo, and a host of others are doing great things. Sometimes that gets lost in these threads.

My last set of comments really had less to do with the actual idea that I offered (maybe it could help, who knows), than with the state of things in general.

The way this all went down certainly won't make it into a Top 10 list of best PR stints, but if people aren't willing to ALLOW something positive to come of it, nothing will. I have been the victim of this mentality in the past as well.

Mike

Hey Mark,
I think your trying to shoot the messenger. Jeremy seems to be caught in the middle, not the one you need to be railing against.
Hey Jeremy,
There's a real good possibility that those not coming don't get on this forum. I know I check it everyday, but as I discovered in trying to build the N-20 owner's list, lotsa folks don't.I've been getting a steady trickle at best, from the forum. I know it's crazy but some folks aren't as addicted as us.I'd also appreciate it if you didn't blackball Mark from the swag list, as I sail in the same class as him. He's done alot for cats for along time.
You two have alot more in common than you know.Your both trying to do the right thing.
Now let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya"

Todd

"Kumbaya"?

That belongs over here...

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=180335#Post180335



Mike

So long as everyone is looking for positive solutions consider this. Everyone agrees that a strong and viable Wave class is good for the sport. Having two sets of rules for two Wave classes works counter to that goal. The fact that the HCA is evidently not allowed to have any flexibility in working with the IWCA also runs counter to that goal.
So the question is how can we get the Wave class under one set of rules and thereby have the HCA and the IWCA working together?

You just have a Stock Wave and a Pro-stock Wave class. One runs the factory sail and rudders, the other you can run what you want, as long as the total sail area measures in to the IWCA rule. And you hand out 3 more trophies. What's the problem?

Experience has shown that the creation of class divisions is detrimental to the long-term viability of the class.

Example - Hobie 14 / 14 Turbo, Hobie 18 / Magnum / SX, NACRA 6.0 / NE, etc, etc.

There aren't enough Waves racing to create two separate classes.

That truly is the question though, Bob is right.

Don't forget the light/heavy classes the H17 had for a while.

So why not pick the strongest of the two and rejoice through support and sales. Hobie could certainly work up a competitive mainsail and an enhanced rudder system to support the class AND bring in a little revenue. All the Hobie pieces-parts exist to do it already. What about a competitive and consistent pentex main? Treat it like a business opportunity.

Perhaps Hobie could talk with the IWCA and negotiate a change in the IWCA rule for unilateral support of a Hobie-only rudder system in the future if Hobie agrees to make one available that meets the needs of the class. Allow the sailors to grandfather in pre-existing rudder systems. You know, it IS possible to work together and for both parties to benefit.

Much better people.
Bob, I thought we were going to have to give you a blanket party, you seem better now.

Jake: I already asked those questions almost exactly, but didn't get the enthusiastic YES I was hoping for. If the sail and rudder are the issues, I didn't understand why we (HC)don't try to conform to what is desired by the racers, as the social sailors won't know the diff, anyway. Who knows, maybe big brother is listening in on this thread? Maybe not.....
Oh yea, Pat: I was shoving bars of soap in a sock to go totally Full Metal Jacket on him at any moment.......

Spoken like a guy whose first name is the patron saint and last name ends in a vowel.

To All, I have read every post this evening. Sorry, but I'm slammed and spend little time on forums of late. I'd like to thank everyone who presented positive input on this issue as it has been an object of at least moderate stress for me the past month or so. Your words have been a great comfort. Anyone who was venting in negative tone, I can only say that while I don't sympathize entirely, I do understand the angst that exists over One Design Policy. Perhaps H1616 said it best with 'No good deed goes unpunished'. I will comment that the name of this thread is the most disheartening of all, as I never extended a "UNINVITED" notice to anyone. I truly want everyone to come! We are working feverishly to put together the biggest Cat party anyone could possibly imagine. Anyone who has changed their plans will be missing it, and it pains me no end to read that.

If you must know the real gist of this, it is that rules do matter. Yes, an official 'protest' of this event was brandished because of our decision to use the IWCA rules. That potentiality was viable at least amongst the powers that be. This would have been catastrophic for HAVAMEGA. If you want to send a message to the person or persons who made that threat, then come and participate anyway, regardless of your interests. I can assure you, we will roll out the red carpet for you. Lake Havasu City is ready and prepared to make this the most incredibly fun event you've seen in a great many years.

Yes, we'll race, but it is all about the party, and hangin' out with the whole catamaran community.

I consider this forum thread to have been one of the most enlightening and informative conversations amongst cat sailors to date. Thanks to Rick White for getting the ball rolling. Our communications have been very friendly, and I'm hoping to meet him at our event. He has a good understanding of what transpired, and has done his best to convey the recent developements. What a class act.

Let not your heart be troubled. We are on course, even through this bump in the road. If you all saw the results of the 'Dana Point 40th Anniversary Regatta', with over 100 boats on the beach, then as has been said so many times, "You ain't seen nothin' yet". Please feel free to contact me anytime about your questions and concerns about HAVAMEGA at gnbii@msn.com. I get over 50 emails a day about it, and it's an object of serious emotional attachment. That is why this particular issue has been so very difficult. Please, if you've changed your mind about coming, for your own pleasure, I'd ask humbly that you reconsider.

Thank you kindly for all of your efforts in promoting catamaran racing, which I consider 'The Best Place In All Of Sailing',

-Gordo Bagley, HAVAMEGA Regatta Chaiman, see havamega.com

Hi Todd,

Yes, in retrospect my calling Jeremy names was not needed to make my point and I apologize to him publicly.

We have exchanged private emails regarding our intentions.

I still stand by my basic point and think that a letter to the IWCA membership should go along way to settling the matter. Perhaps taking off on Gordo Bagley last post!

Mark

Well, hell just ****ing froze over and some pigs grew wings.

This is better. Thanks.

J

"Yes, we'll race, but it is all about the party, and hangin' out with the whole Hobie catamaran community."

Fixed it for you. Let's be honest.

Flying pork chops? yummmmm

PS Jeremy... you rock!

Pigs Grew Wings?!!!!!!!!!!1
That causes SWINE FLUE !!!
Thanks Gordo and Jeremy.

I sense a lot of anger in you, brother!

No anger here ,bro. Just trying to ease the tension a bit. Sometimes my humor is lost on people that haven't met me in person, I'm way worse. Sometimes it's just lost on people...
I'd be lying if I said I thought the edict was a good decision, but that's ancient history. What's done is done.I think it's been re-hashed enough.


I almost bought a Hobie Stand-up paddle board the other day, but I figured I better try one out first.
Tawd

p.s. I wouldn't let any of this stress you out, Gordo. You can't please all the people all the time.

p.s. I wouldn't let any of this stress you out, Gordo. You can't please all the people all the time. [/quote]

Yes, Ol' Honest Abe had that right!
Rest assured brother, I'm over it. The stress was pretty intense before the decision was made. I'm very pleased with this thread and the openness of everyone involved. You probably know that one reason I love this sport so intensely is due to the great friends around North America that have made my life a lot richer.

Ok so the HCA Chair and the event organizer agree but the plan got derailed. Someone somewhere thought this was a bad idea. We have heard that expressed already. Those people are the ones we need to hear from. What's their plan to bring these two groups together? Let's hear it.

Yes Bob, I hope HCC and IHCA have read this in its entirety and can find it in their best interest to spend time on it and make useful recommendations. It badly needs attention on that level. Right now, we're feeling pounded.

Oops, I should say - We're feeling pounded and don't deserve it. We don't get paid to do this. We have the greatest passion as well. The above mentioned need to find a way to work better so as not to throw water on that fire. I'm fairly thick skinned, but I notice not all others are and we're still loosing some and I'm not sure we're gaining enough to make up for it.

FYI: This is mostly a Class Association issue... not a factory one.

First and most important to the factory, We build the Wave to sell to the recreational market, so any design changes made are entirely related to that cause. The fact that it is enjoyable to race is great!

The original castings and rudders are readily available and already class legal (as factory supplied). I do not think adding EPOs fits that description.

I do not agree with making different sets of sails available. The less changes the better. You simply alienate the entry level guys to appease the hard core... This defeats the purpose of an entry level class. Why make it an "arms race" to sail Waves?

Matt,

The IWCA has had success creating a Wave racing class where there was none. They have found something and created that which did not exist before. While I agree that it is mostly a class rule issue, the factory and the IHCA rules are very closely tied together. It becomes a factory issue / opportunity to offer upgraded options for the boat to meet the wishes of the sailors who desire to race the boats.

There are two choices. Continue to try and push two Wave classes or combine the two. Since nobody seems to be actively racing under the HCA class Wave rules and it's clear that the IWCA doesn't feel that the current ancillary equipment supplied stock with the wave meets their needs, I (and others) suggested making a couple of minor compromises for the betterment of both interests that shouldn't cost much energy or expense or invalidate the Hobie sense for strict one design (supplier) of equipment.

The actively racing wave class decided they would like to have a better rudder system - so they made it happen. Hobie has had rudder choices with every other Hobie boat - why is this any different or less desirable? The IWCA decided that the sails provided by the factory, though completely satisfactory for the rental market, were far too inconsistent for their racing needs (entry level or not) so they went outside and made that happen too. 95 square feet of Pentex from a competent loft isn't going to break the bank...even for a newbie.

Hobie can either work with them to help continue to build on the early success of the class...or not. If Hobie doesn't feel Wave racing is worth the effort then that's all there is to say and things will remain as they are. I don't have a dog in the fight - but I really found your response interesting if nothing else than from a business perspective.

I second that Jake.

I have Hobie shorts, a Hobie (dead) boat and a current HCA-NA membership, although no Wave at present.

I am, however checking into renting one for Duck and might get on one at Put-In-Bay this summer. It would be nice to see a reasonable solution to these issues. The HCC has everything to gain, both in integrity and sales, to accept the class as IWCA has conceived and administered it.

Sorry, I don't agree that the factory needs to or should follow the lead of a group of sailors who have decided to alter their boats. This is entirely up to the IWCA. We don't control their decisions in any way. They are free to do as they please.

My point, and this is a personal opinion (I'm not the factory's decision maker here) is that in the World perspective of the Wave class, These types of changes to boats are not consistant with the HCA / IHCA or Hobie Cat Company's goals. These are more "Open Class" type changes. Hobie fleets were built on the KISS system (Keep it simple stupid). This has worked pretty well in the past and is still quite valid for the Wave today.

This partnership IS consistent with the HCA goals. That’s why they are trying to develop it. Hobie Cat USA has shot the HCA plan out of the water. So what’s the new plan? Throwing the checker board up in the air and going home is not a plan.

But Matt .....

I'll pass onto you something I learned in a College Business Marketing Course ....

"The Customer is always right .... even when they aren't."


It's that simple .... and the IWCA sailors are the customers, so they get to set the rules ....

.... Of course if HCA/HC-Europe/IHCA do not feel that the IWCA rules are consistent w/ their (Hobie's) rules/goals then of course they do not have to supply what the customer wishes ..... but my experience shows me, someone will.

Harry Murphey

Keep the words "Hobie Tiger" in the front of your mind and read the above post again !

Don't follow you.

The Tiger conforms to ISAF rules as a one design. Any rule changes are presented by the IHCA to ISAF for approval.

The IWCA has no such process or international standing / status.

I don't have a horse in this race... but

by far, far,far Hobie sells more Waves to beach resorts than people who race them. If they can mass produce sails that have no QA then what do the resorts care? Provided they don't fall apart I really doubt any resort is pushing for the ability to get sails from a different supplier (cause I really doubt they know it would even be a possibility). Besides, what do they care about racing anyway.

this discussion isn't far from the discussion about the N20, so it isn't a uniquely Hobie phenom. People just like to go after Hobie because of the "edict" and the rotomolded thing.

Your comment implies that the Wave sails are of low quality or inconsistant... This is a comment I have heard promoted by Rick. This is FAR from the truth. Our sails are cut by digital pattern on a plotter / cutter and are built with the same 5.6 oz Tejin dacron as we use on other boats. Tough, high quality material and built to last... and QUITE consistant over hundreds and hundreds of sails made each year. If Rick experienced some problems... they were long ago.

I apologize... I should not have implied that they were not making quality sails... but that if they did produce sails that had wide variation then the resorts wouldn't care.

It all doesn't matter. There is NO IHCA rules Wave class. It doesn't exist. Hobie Wave sailboats race with open sails. That's the way it is. Everyone doesn't have to like it (most do however) but everyone does need to accept it. It's game over on that front.
So what's the next step?

Uh? http://www.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/ihca/downloads/rulebook/RBook090101_1.pdf

Table of Contents
INTERNATIONAL HOBIE CLASS ASSOCIATION GENERAL RULES...........................................3
HOBIE DRAGOON CLASS RULES ..............................................................................................10
HOBIE WAVE CLASS RULES ......................................................................................................13

It does matter... and only a handfull of guys are sailing IWCA rules. Not "most". Their event lists are short and a significant number of the Waves sailing them are stock.

I have just read the editorial that Rick wrote in Catsailor magazine... that certainly explains the bitter tone in many of the posts on this subject.

I know Rick is very proud of the growth of the IWCA. Remember though, Hobie Cat also put in a large amount of effort and expense to provide charter boats and staff for those early events. This is how the fleet down in Key Largo was created. In reality, the growth of our Hobie Wave sales had enabled this... IWCA racing was not responsible for our sales growth by any means. As example, when racing was big for Hobie back in the 80's it amounted to less than 10% of its boat sales... racing is a far smaller percentage of sales these days. Recreation was and is what sells.

To be clear... Our Director of Marketing, Dan Mangus is not the evil doer here. His entire job at Hobie Cat is to promote and protect Hobie, its trademarks and the decades of work we have done to create Hobie products, Hobie Sailing and the life style World Wide.

What I understand that happened... The NOR for the event was written with a comment that IWCA rules would be used for Wave racing. This was the first mistake. This is a Hobie Class North Americans... a Major Hobie event. The IHCA has Wave Class rules. This was spotted by David Brookes / ICHA Director. This was seen as an issue and a bad precedent to be set at a Major Hobie event. To try and resolve the issue, a group of HCA and HCC people discussed the subject and proposed to have the racing governed by IHCA Wave rules and that an exception would be used to allow IWCA conforming boats race this event. This is where Dan and Hobie Cat left the discussion. A very reasonable compromise. Where this was derailed after that, I don't really know. Maybe someone will explain that to us here.

Further... I suspect many if not most IWCA sailors, who would have come, would not have traveled the thousands of miles West with their own boats anyway... so why not promote the use of the factory provided charter boats? I suppose... that would be seen as "giving in" to the factory and HCA? I really don't get it. They should come and sail.

Really? A piece of paper? Come on man you're smarter than that. Let's be pragmatic here.

Not really sure what your objective here is. This isn't even your racing class. You still race 16s, you want to open up the H16 class too? I don't think you would get many takers on that idea.

Look... Hobie Cat and the HCA had offered a solution... an exception to allow IWCA boats at Havamega. If they didn't want to play, thats their choice.

I am with Matt on this,take a breath and relax.Matt has a good point 16 sailors did not even want a new 6:1 downhaul on there boats.From a distance this all seems trivial.If you like racing the Wave go out buy a boat or better yet charter a new one.

You want pragmatic? Enable your PM.

J

I’ve sporadically put quite a bit of time into this issue over the years. I’ve done this because the HCA saw a benefit from having a partnership with the Wave class. It’s apparent that the HCA still thinks this is a good idea and so I was really disappointed to hear about how the entire thing was stymied. I want this to work because it would be good for the HCA and the HCA wants it. That’s my motivation.
It’s also very disappointing to see the manufacturer exert undue pressure on a class decision.

Did you not read that Brookes was the one to identify the "problem" .

Did you not read the part about the exception?

Hardly undue pressure by the Manufacturer. Common sense guidance maybe.

yea I read your post but I've seen this movie before

As have I... it gets REALLY old.

I agree. Way old.
So let’s break the mold. Be bold. Do something different. Take a little risk. Try a new way.
Who knows it just may work out.


...just a thought

Whats more bold than saying... bring 'em on. Thats what we did.

As far as I'm concerned, that can still happen. But (in the words of GW Bush) I'm not the decider.

I just realized what a loop this thing has been on. Matt Bounds had explained the whole thing in his first reply to this thread. 1st page.

Where it derailed is that Gordon and I talked at length abouit the 'exceptions' (which was a fair compromise, no question) and decided between us that we'd rather not go to the trouble to get IHCA rules committees and others involved in what we didn't feel would be a long term solution and having to deal with with it sooner than later seemed a better course of action for us. 15 pages later, I still think we were right to stop the train there. Who knows how many ruffled feathers there would be if we would have had to do this AFTER a successful HavaMega.

15 pages over the wave.....mmmmnnn Tiger , Wildcat , F-18....we had it figured out in 2001 but.... ah well..

...When do we get to start racing the Adventure Islands? It's a one-design sailing multihull...

My point is that, when it suited Hobie, there were many changes made to the spec of the original "One Design" Tiger. I remember hearing that ISAF were perturbed at the many changes to a "One Design".

I too am miffed by the way things seemed to have gone down. Indeed, neither I have a horse in this race but I too think some people are really missing the plot in today's catamaran scene. Selling to resorts is great, but sticking to SMOD like a religious dogma is really no recepy for succees these days. Opening up the sail plan (within size rules) is actually a very smart move for a class like the waves. Jake is right, a 95 sq. ft. aftermarket mainsail is not going to break the bank and the racing will only become more fair with it as the competitive range will be entlarged.

I too see a clear example in the history of the Hobie Tiger. Especially when compared to another new Hobie class like the FX-one (or non-F20 optimized Hobie Fox).

And other then that; since when do we regard an ISAF seal of approval as a positive thing ?

Those guys have lost the plot almost as much as the SMOD fanatics.

Wouter

While it would be fun to argue with you Wouter (fun as in, after I take this hot poker out of my eye), that's just another tangent from this thread.

I stand by what I've already posted. Regardless of how we got here, the first goal now needs to be to have everyone show up and race, to show that they care about growing the Wave as a racing class within HCA. HCA, HCC, IWCA (and others) should work together to help make that a reality.

Everything else is political agenda, and I think we're all getting very tired of it.

Mike

So basically you are saying that everybody, incl. the IWCA, should work towards having everybody adhere to the HCA position.

As in everybody is welcomed to negociate a solution to the situation under the criterium that the end result is the position exemplified by HCA.

Why don't you just ask the IWCA and god know who else to commit suicide as well ?



Now that is a true statement. But you shouldn't confuse your own position as being the high road.


But what do I care, it is no skin of my nose.

Wouter

A question for IWCA members and Hobie Cat.
If Hobie offered 3 wave sails, Standard, Full , Flat would the Iwca racers buy them or still want aftermarket manufactures?
Could Hobie build fuller and/or flatter sails as per customer request for the wave?
How would that influence cost?
Would Hobie be willing to "Grandfather" current IWCA aftermarket sails If they measured out correctly.

Then those with aftermarket sails would be able to keep racing, Hobie would get future sales in the sails. The two classes would be closer to making peace and getting more people to sail regattas on the waves.

I'm trying to be constructive here so if you have a negative comment for me about this please do it in PM or E-mail.

Those are rather strontg statments for someone who doesn't care.

Hobie18rich: That is another question I asked (altough I referred to them as a Papa, Mama and Baby Bear sails) when I was talking to the boys on the board,but that whole dilution of class thing came up again.
It was explained to me in the beginning that getting a sail for the Wave should be like buying a running shoe. You need to be fitted, bascially. Depending on weight, sailing ability and desire, as long as they conformed to the perimeter measurements, sail cloth thickness and materials. Makes sense when someone who really believes in it explains it to you.

What we have is an event with posted rules. How we got here needs to be irrelevant, if we are to build it to a sucess. That is the high road that needs to be taken.

What happens next in terms of long-term rules, etc. should be a separate issue, but for anyone to be taken seriously, showing up would be a good first step.

As for the IWCA vs IHCA Wave rules, I have watched this for a long, long, long time (since its inception, actually). The main point put forward originally by IWCA (published in Catsailor) was that SMOD sails cost more, that's why IWCA wanted to be able to use multiple sail makers. Now, it's gone down the road of making the sail fit your personal style, which gives ammunition to the IHCA SMOD position, as this has the potential to be viewed as an arms race.

Still, none of that matters for this event. If people choose not to show up, they simply will not have much political pull in the future. When you show up with lots of boats, you'll start getting attention. Who knows, when the good Wave sailors win with factory sails, this whole debate might just go the way of the dodo...

Mike

Mike/Brucat???

Let me see if I understand your statement correctly ......

So the IWCA doesn't want to follow "SMOD" as they have found that the IWCA sailors can purchase sails cheaper from Independent Sailmakers ...... and have also discovered that customized cuts for their wieght/sailing style seems to "level" the playing field while "measuring in" in terms of square area.

Hmmmmmm ........

So I'm expected to pay extra $$$$'s for a product from a manufacture that doesn't meet my needs while there is a manufacture that will make a product thats cheaper, improves the racing, and does meets my needs ... just so I can claim "SMOD".

I thought "SMOD" was to lead to cheaper, more cost effective racing/sailing ..... I'm really confused now .....

Harry Murphey

I am pretty sure I am one of maybe 3 Wave owners in this whole conversation.......funny don't you think?

Sounds like you want to keep it that way.

Brucat,

I think you have it all wrong, having a sail made to fit your weight opens the class up to more sailors and you get better less expensive sails. The a cats do this and it works for them. The F18 class has some of the best sails and better priced than the oem sails (not one F18 had sail issues in the Tybee like the N20 did with the oem sails.

Hobie Cat should not be involved in any of the rules and should not be involved in the racing members class. Hobie would care more about boat and part sales than the racing class. The A cats, F16, F18 are all doing well with out manufactures telling them what to do.

Since Hobie went Hobie only in division 9 most dealers have gone under and I have not seen any new Hobie's racing just A cats, F18s, F16s, N20 and some older Hobie cats and all boats are welcome. Most of us did sail Hobie's they just don't make boats that fit our needs anymore.

The one problem I have with being a Hobie class member is you really don't get to vote on upper management only your division chair and they don't put major issues to membership vote. If the IWCA sailors come to the event it won't change the IHCA minds. Going to the event with the IHCA rules would just show that the IHCA does not need to change. The IWCA should just keep doing what they are doing because it is working for them and they are building there class. If the IWCA wants to convert to the IHCA rules they should put it to a class vote. The classes should be about the sailors and having equal, fun, competitive, affordable and not a arms race. Hobie will say they have that but I think you could buy a lot of parts that did not change the performance of the boats a lot cheaper than having to buy from HC.

Someone in this thread wanted facts on what the Hobie only rule has done. The boats I have owned new 1985 H16, used 1989 TheMightyHobie18, used 1997 TheMightyHobie18, used H17, new 01 Nacra I20, new 2002 Tiger. Hobie only rule all new 05 Nacra F18, 06 Infusion, 07 Infusion, 09 Infusion. Hobie lost all my business that's around 67,000 spent on Nacra's and I am just one sailor.

Hobie stock main white list =$812

Calvert wave main list =$900
Tri-radial Pentex add $352 = $1252
Load path add $407 = $1307



No, you wouldn't be expected to pay more. Why would you buy a WAVE Main anyway... for your 18? That wouldn't make sense Harry. I think you'd be a little underpowered

J

In ten seconds of google searching I found a Wave main from a respectable loft for less than the Hobie stock sail.

The Calvert might be a little more, but I'm willing to bet the difference in price it's a whole lot better value than the stock sail. And it's probably made in the US instead of by slave-labor in Malaysia or wherever.

The mains that I quoted are on a website affiliated with the IWCA.

And if you want to support labor in the U.S. All Hobie rotomolded boats (sail/ kayaks) and sails (other than euro boats) are made here in the U.S. There used to be about 20 boat manufacturers here in CA, Catalina, Cal, Capitol Yachts, Hobie, Performance, etc. Now there are only about 3.

J

Hobie USA builds the sail right here in Oceanside California. Yes, Made in the USA.

I do know that a few of the "custom" sailmakers send their digital patterns to over seas lofts for production.

We purchased three new Factory Wave sails last year. They are excellent, well made, teflon bolt ropes etc. During the season our six Waves are on the water about 12 hours a day, seven days a week. Very rough use with young sailors. So far, the stock sails have lasted at least four years, with some minimum maintenance.
Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle

Thanks for the correction. I guess I should know better than to repeat hearsay.

The Calvert sails I've owned were built in the US, and of equivalent price but much better quality than class legal sails. I would be surprised if that doesn't hold true for the Wave.

What Class?

Quite honestly... hard to beat the Hobie Factory quality. I suspect you are referring to another manufacturer.

The latter part of this thread appears to be a debate about HCC factory sails against other lofts, rather than the original discussion, which some might object to, but it kind of gets to the heart of the IWCA vs. IHCA question. That's OK I guess, but it makes me realize how sweet a deal it is to be in a strict one-design format. My experience with strict One-Design is that it inspires humility, challenges in a very pure fashion a skippers technical and tactical skills on the course. I also like that I can stiff my H16 up, have a new set of sails, and be very competitive. Even better, I'm finding that the skippers that bought new boats this year are about in the same place on the course around me as they have been in the past, even though my boat is 4 years old and has been showing signs of fatigue for a couple of years. Also, I've observed that in this sport you have lots of different types of cat sailors --recreational, OD racing, Portsmouth racing and hotshots who want the fastest thing they can find, etc., etc. In racing, I find the most respect and commaraderie amongst the OD racers, and the reward of finishing well far more rewarding. Nevertheless, in every way I think that, in general, catamaran sailing is the best place to be. A really great group of people. Thanks for the fun!

That was kind on an butt hole thing to say. Why would you say that? Why would you think that? Or are you just flaming me to get me say something controversial? You should give me a call catfever guy, I would like that. Maybe I am missing your meaning. Maybe not.

Time to break it out


Would someone please show me documentation of when the HCA, in any of it's forms, ever allowed any thing but a Hobie to sail at it's events. This "Edict" thing drives me nuts.

I would like to see if the sails really make any difference.
It would be nice to have ten boats with stock sails race a week long event against ten boats that fit the wave class rules and see where the chips fall.
My gut tells me that the better sailor will do better and not the custom sail.

I have raced my 72 H14 with old sails way, way, way over weight and done ok.
I race the H16 way over weight and do ok.
I have a 1984 H16 with bad sails and a bent mast and regularly beat brand new boats at our club races.(did I mention I was way over weight?)
Have I mentioned the nut on the tiller lately?

I can't provide you documentation but I can tell you for a fact that there were at least two Hobie MidWinters East regattas that had an open class that included boats that were NOT Hobies (I was there). I started sailing multi's (TheMightyHobie18) in 95 and the 'X' boats (as they were referred to by the NAHCA) were allowed to sail at our points regattas. Once the "Hobie Edict" was announced Division 8 pretty much went away. The Hobie MidWinters East regatta still happens but that’s pretty much it for Hobie only regattas in division 8.

Div 9 had "X" brand boats since at least 1990 when I started racing, but Im sure before that also. When I joined, there was already a fleet of 18 Sq's, prindle 19's, and a NACRA 5.8 sailing(in Charlotte). I began racing the circuit around the Carolina's and was never turned away on my 1976 5.2, as a matter of fact, I was welcomed with open arms and alot of help from all the sailors. I sucked, but still had fun because of the people who WELCOMED me.
If you or your fleet were turning away "X" boats at that time, Im glad I didnt travel up there to be unwelcome.
Now do you see how this "edict" impacts us non Hobie people?

We are all catamaran people, we should not be brand loyal people, nor should we follow rules of exclusitivity. If you want "cat sailing" to die, keep on excluding boats and practicing SMOD practices.

MHO

I'd like to correct that. The 'edict' in the central Gulf didn't just impact non-Hobie sailors. In fact, that's one of the main reasons why the Texas guys (at least in the southern half of TX) separated. That's also why there aren't any Hobie points regattas central Gulf. In fact, although at the HCA they may be listing 'fleets' in the central Gulf, but except for whatever Brad at Sunjammers might be doing, these 'fleets' in actuality do NOT EXIST. (well, Ken Altman and a few guys at Singing River YC are beginning to scratch something up, but we're talking something like seven people.)

There just aren't enough Hobie sailors down here that they can justify excluding anyone. EVERYONE would lose out. In this part of the world, Hobie only regattas can't garner enough entrants to pay for themselves. Down here, regattas HAVE to be inclusive or they can't hold up.

And I don't see anyone round here running madly to buy Hobies, either. Nor would they, even with exclusivity - that would just piss people off and run them off the brand, as it has done. Racing around here has and continues to be open fleet, friendly, run whatcha brung affairs.


Here's the charter for the TCDYC guys, for instance:
"TCDYC Charter and Bylaws
Bylaws

The TCDYC Agrees to no laws and follows the wind in all matters
We are of the view that sailing is a matter of personal choice and a way of life
We intend that all persons should sail catamarans and we invite them to be with us when we do
We will speak to our members and friends in a respectful manner at all times
We will take actions that promote sailing catamarans and will avoid any actions that are prohibited on the beach
We do not collect dues or any money that is not freely given for the enjoyment of the sport
We will individually do what it takes to make sailing at the dike enjoyable and safe for all persons on the beach
We are mindful of the diverse group of attitudes and personalities that comprise TCDYC and its guests. At all times we commit to them and ourselves that we will act respectfully and honorably towards anyone on the beach
We are a unified group with the ability to sail safe and contribute to an enjoyable environment for everyone on the beach


Charter

To build a Yacht club that inspires its members to fulfill their dreams and participate in the possibilities of life.
To be examples of freedom and full self expression in the community
To create a lasting structure for future sailors to follow their desires to be one with the wind and the water"

Pat, you are focusing on the broken record crap but losing sight of the big picture.

Everyone agrees on the need to convert recreational sailors into novice racing sailors for the sport of catamaran racing to keep going... and the question is how?

Everyone agrees's that most of the recreational sailors are now getting rotomolded boats like Waves and Getaways.... and the question is how to enroll these guys in yacht clubs and fleets since they are not finding us now and asking to join. (They probably don't feel welcome. ie... they don't fit in with higher performance cats and sailors)

Everyone agrees that this group is one of the targets to get going racing in our Yacht Clubs and fleets. We also HOPE these guys will feed the H16 class and beyond...but just racing Waves will be just fine as well.

But, There are no IHCA wave sailors who go racing... (5 raced a regatta last year).... So, just inviting Hobie Waves to Hobie Regattas is not working. Bottom line..There is no IWCA Wave Class ..... There are just some rules on paper dictated by somebody somewhere.

The IWCA Wave racers were experienced racers who dropped back to the Wave, created a class along OD principles, and are keeping it going as a real OD class of individuals who sail the boat under a rule set they agree on. They HAVE attracted non racers into the class and are getting the boat to be an entry racing boat.... Your standard stock WAVE can join in and race and fit right into the class.

The IWCA model is to have experienced racers lead the class and set a standard for racing. They try to have events where recreational sailors will see them and they try to get the Newbies out racing. The experienced guys make the newbies feel welcome. The tend to run Wave only regattas on courses that the WAVES like ... not the W L courses that racers demand.

Bob Merrick's question is the right one... OK... Somebody does't like the IWCA deal.... What's the solution.... You can't blow up the IWCA deal and do nothing.

The IHCA class model for growing the Wave as an entry level race boat has been operating for several years (according to the paperwork) ... Last Year.. it got 5 boats to go racing. What ever the plan was... it's clearly not working

What is the NEW PLAN? Who is leading it and how does it fit in with Hobie points regattas. That is the big picture!

Mark, I think maybe that is a typo and was supposed to say, "no IHCA Wave Class..."

Pat,

I know you are familiar w/ Div11 and Fleet 54 for example ... but as you are mainly a H16 sailor you may have missed the "Open" Classes

For years there where "Open" Classes at several Hobie Events in Div11 .... these were started because we had fleet members w/ H21SE's, H18Mag, H18SX's, H14 Turbos etc, and were trying to develope friendly compitition and maybe convert some to buying Hobie Products. So we had a "Open Class" so these non-sanctioned boats could come out and play. At one point we had +15 boats competing in "Open" Class on non-HCA-NA sanctioned Hobies and boats produced by other manufacture's. We were all friends and were have alot of fun together. But the inconsistent quality of boat construction and sails by Hobie was undermining our efforts .... then came the infamous IHCA's "Hobie Edict". A Rule never discussed/voted/approved by the local rank & file sailors but instead forced down the throats of the local organizers by the (6) IHCA members that the majority of directly recieve their income (ie:rice bowl) from the Hobie Company/Organizations themselves. Please note that in Div's (north to south) 12, 9, 8, 15, 6 and 10 the "Edicts" effect has been devastating ... literly destroying the local catamaran sailing scene .... splitting long term friendships and making regattas un-sustainable. All these divisions collapsed and many others lost significate numbers of members. Now you do not need to believe me ... just take a look at the numbers from before the IHCA's "Hobie Edict" and after, the proof is there , if you wish to put aside your "Hobie Brand Loyalty" and actually reconize the numbers/trends.

And there is a another side effect .... Most of the "Open" Class Catamarans have joined local yacht clubs ... the "Hobie Sailors" have not. The "buzz" out of California and other places, is that the invitations to "Hobie Catters" will soon end if the YC's don't see increased membership and participation in the YC's. Take my example .... I joined a local YC 3 years ago, I cut the grass weekly, I volunteered to be on the RC for 4-5 events last year alone, and I help organize and cooked a "Homemade Meatball and Spagetti Diner for the Junior Sailing School that served 106 plates and raised approximently $+800.00 between contributions and dinner fees.

Now my YC host's two events/year that cat sailors participate in ... The Annual One-Design that has this year a H14 Class Start, A-Cat Class Start and a "Open" Class ... then there is the Hobie Points Regatta in September ..... and here is the real kicker .... I AM THE ONLY ACTIVE BEACH CAT SAILOR AT THE CLUB !!!!!! I work all spring/summer/fall at various duties so the YC agrees to host these events ... sacrificing my attendence at other events so these events happen. And the "Hobie Only" Edict is not helping .... on any level as it is promoting seperatism/elitism among the catamaran classes (just so a few can keep their jobs????)

(And I do not know how much longer I can convience the Club to host two seperate Regatta's for beach cats as they do not understand the reasoning and consider ALL "Beach Catters" to be from the "Dark Side".)

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18(mag)/ Fleet 54, Div11
P19MX/ CRAC, "Open" Class

The point is:
The HCA has bylaws and Fleets have charters. The bylaws have never allowed anything but Hobies at events.
Each fleet can have a commodore and each division has a chairman.
If you want something changed in the association then get it on the agenda to be discussed and voted on at the annual meetings.
Things should not be changed at the whim of any one person or small group.
I haven't met anyone yet that believes their ideas are bad. Everyone thinks their way is the best.

If NAMSA or the NACRA association want to amend their bylaws don't they go through a similar process?

I believe that the HCA should be looking at the F18 issue and also the Wave issues.
I have also discussed allowing fleets to invite other one design classes(ie Sharks ) to attend our regattas as guests.
My head is not in the sand, but there is a process to make changes.
If the issues are brought to the table and the division reps vote them down,then try again next year or work with another group as some have done.

Ok Pat,

When do we ... the rank and file HCA-NA members get to vote on the members forming the IHCA ... Give me a date!!!!!!

There is none, as these 6 people will not allow it to happen .... ever!!!!!!

That is why you argument/position is pure BULLSH-T, respectfully sir.

The HCA-NA will never be able to direct it's future as long as the IHCA can VETO any decision made by the HCA-NA officals that are at least appointed by Division deligates ... who are elected by the members themselves

Harry Murphey

PS: I truely wish you can prove me in-correct .... but in my +25yrs of Hobiedom there has never been an IHCA election that I'm aware of ..... Good Luck on changing the IHCA ... I've given up and will not even petition the IHCA for some minor rules changes for the TheMightyHobie18 Class ..... it's just a waste of my time.

I would have to say that your approach is anything but respectful.
I like to treat people online like I would face to face.
I have not met many people that would speak to me like that in person.

I believe this makes the point. The following proposal was approved at last years AGM. It's not enough to make everyone happy but it shows you that things are not all set in stone. The proposal was made by Chris and I but it was the result of input from many rank and file class members like yourself.

HCA Ranking System Proposal

Proposed by Bob Merrick and Chris Wessels

Proposal:

Results from the following types of events shall count towards the HCA Regional Rakings.

1- All events in which the HCA and/or an associated HCA Division and/or HCA fleet is the Organizing Authority. These events shall be HCA One-Design events. An HCA One-Design events is an event that conforms to the HCA One-Design policy. An explanation of this policy is available on the HCA website.

2- Up to three additional events in each HCA Division in which the Organizing Authority is not affiliated with the HCA. These events are subject to the following conditions.

Each Hobie Class (i.e. Hobie 16 or Hobie 20) in which ranking points will be awarded must

a) have at least five boats competing.

b) have a separate, one-design start.

c) compete using Hobie Class rules.

For an event to qualify under option 2 the Division Chair in which the event is to be held shall make a request by contacting the HCA Chair for approval prior to the event. This should be done 3-6 months ahead of time so that all sailors can be properly notified.

Results should be sent to the HCA scorekeeper from an official associated with the event.

All individuals scored in the HCA Regional Ranking must be HCA members.

Reason:

Introducing Option 2 events will help Divisions that don't currently host HCA One-Design regattas pick a few events in which to focus participation as a one-design fleet. It will also give these Divisions an incentive to host a few HCA One-Design events so that sailors can count a full five events in the ranking.

In the more active Divisions this will work to get good turnout at select multi-class events which is good exposure for the Hobie Class.

I'm with you Pat, I'm really not understanding how people think hostility is helping any of this.


I'll re-post my observation from the earlier post:

"As for the IWCA vs IHCA Wave rules, I have watched this for a long, long, long time (since its inception, actually). The main point put forward originally by IWCA (published in Catsailor) was that SMOD sails cost more, that's why IWCA wanted to be able to use multiple sail makers. Now, it's gone down the road of making the sail fit your personal style, which gives ammunition to the IHCA SMOD position, as this has the potential to be viewed as an arms race."

Where in this did I say that I agree with either position?


To clear up the REAL BS in this thread...

SMOD is a death-sentence? Wow. Several of you really need to spend some time reading this before you waste any more of my time posting here...

http://www.laserinternational.org/rules/Current%20Rules.pdf

Looks REMARKABLY like this:

http://www.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/ihca/downloads/rulebook/RBook090101_1.pdf

For those of us just refusing to let it sink in, here are the Cliffs Notes…

Lasers use multiple licensed builders, just like Hobie Cats.

Laser sails come from those licensed builders, just like Hobie Cats.

Laser sailors are required to be MEMBERS to participate (another subject of constant discord), just like Hobie Cat sailors.

And, Lasers are one of the most successful classes in the world, just like… wait for it… HOBIE CATS…

SMOD is clearly the problem, I can see that now…


Harry, if you were actually a member who gave an actual rats butt enough to be a member continuously (not just on odd years when it suits you), and to actually participate (as in, attend meetings), you would KNOW that the IHCA positions are ELECTED by the chairs of the regional associations. Here is the full list:

http://www.hobieclass.com/?MenuID=Links%2F10771%2F0&Page=1903


My overall point in this thread remains, one can blame anyone and everyone that one wants; but if one stays home, one is contributing to the shrinking base.

Mike

THANK YOU TO ALL WHO ARE PUTTING IN THE TIME AND EFFORT TO KEEP RACES HAPPENING.

I'm sorry, but I just have to say something about this. The Laser is arguably one of the most weight-sensitive boats ever designed. And that is probably why they have three different Laser classes: The Laser 4.7 for the younger kids moving into Laser (and it involves a separate mast section); the Laser Radial for older youth and women; and the Laser full rig.

The optimum crew weight on a full-rig Laser is about 165 pounds. (That is what I was told by an Olympic-level Laser sailor.)

So the Laser has three different classes with three different sails, all to accommodate three different weight and ability levels.

Red Herring...

There are multiple models of Hobie Cats, in part, to solve the same problem.

The three Laser rigs are NOT raced as one single design, rather as three separate classes. No attempt is made to balance the weight for single-class racing.

EDIT: How does this make your point about the Laser (not) being one of the most successful classes?

Mike

I agree with Mike and Pat on this one. I have been a member of NAHCA, or what ever the current name has been, since 1971. We have always had membership input on rules and membership leadership through the Hobie Cat Fleet and Divisions. Anyone that claims otherwise was either not there or did not take part.

Caleb Tarleton
Hobie Cat Fleet 95 and Div. 4

Of course not, because they are racing one-design within each class, which is already balanced out for weight by having the same sails in each weight class.

When you get up to the full-sail Laser rig, then the sailors themselves balance out their own weight. I can tell you that the top sailors keep themselves on very strict diet and exercise regimes to stay within the optimum weight for success.

How many catamaran sailors want to be that self-disciplined just for fun? Those Olympic Laser guys live on stuff that looks a lot like dog food.

I seen some food at regattas that looked like dog food for sure, but most of the guys I race with have never been on a strict diet other than a see-food diet.
Pat and I are pretty much exclusive members of the 'over 200lbs' Hobie 14 racers. Plus you add in the boats that are at least 30 years old and we wonder why we don't have a lot of 1st place 14 trophys at home.

You say hostility is not the answer but then you blast murphy for stating his opinion.

Also, since we are on Lasers, I WAS a member of the Laser class, raced 1 year with them. The 3 different classes you talk about, well when the wind picks up, some sailors switch to a radial sail, but still race SMOD, totally legal apparently. There was always alot of talk amongst the group about who should be sailing in what class, none of it was welcoming or uplifting.
Also, talking about SMOD keeps cost down? Try to by the new Laser downhaul kit. Its like $300, but I can buy a Harken pivoting exit block, a couple of small airblocks, 2 pieces of line for under $100, and I have the same thing. But thats not class legal beacuase I didnt buy it from Laser.
Im not trying to stir the pot, but when I see guys who are factory reps talking like factory reps, and guys who are Hobie dealers talking like factory reps, and people who clearly only see Hobie as the only brand, then I have to call BS.
I know what happened in my area, and it wasnt pretty. Maybe other parts of the country can fall victim to the SMOD fantacism and claim it works well for thier area, and maybe it does, but not here in the Southeast.

So what you're saying is that maybe we all need to join US SAILING and make an extra donation so our Olympic athletes can hire better nutritionists so they can eat actual food rather than dog food and get the same nutritional value, but... once again, this has nothing to do with the Laser class being unsuccessful. There are tons of people racing Lasers just for fun, just like we are.

As Pat already pointed out, fat people like us can and do have moments of brilliance. If I were concerned about my weight vs. trophy ratio, I'd either get to a gym or sail a leadmine.

Mike

BTW, my son owns and sails a H14, and I wish I could buy a Wave for him, but they are too expensive.

Hi Dave,

"You say hostility is not the answer but then you blast murphy for stating his opinion."

Harry brings that upon himself by forming opinions based on a complete lack of current (and/or factual) information, and instead of just stating an opinion and asking for clarification, immediately moves to attack volunteers.

"Also, since we are on Lasers, I WAS a member of the Laser class, raced 1 year with them. The 3 different classes you talk about, well when the wind picks up, some sailors switch to a radial sail, but still race SMOD, totally legal apparently. There was always alot of talk amongst the group about who should be sailing in what class, none of it was welcoming or uplifting."

If that's true, that is unfortunate. This does not happen where I live (and run Laser regattas).

"Also, talking about SMOD keeps cost down? Try to by the new Laser downhaul kit. Its like $300, but I can buy a Harken pivoting exit block, a couple of small airblocks, 2 pieces of line for under $100, and I have the same thing. But thats not class legal beacuase I didnt buy it from Laser."

Hobie Cat sailors are allowed to purchase blocks and lines from any manufacturer and supplier.

"Im not trying to stir the pot, but when I see guys who are factory reps talking like factory reps, and guys who are Hobie dealers talking like factory reps, and people who clearly only see Hobie as the only brand, then I have to call BS.
I know what happened in my area, and it wasnt pretty. Maybe other parts of the country can fall victim to the SMOD fantacism and claim it works well for thier area, and maybe it does, but not here in the Southeast."

If it looks and smells like stirring...

Mike

You know, almost everyone on this forum are probably genuinely nice guys, guys you want to hang out with at a regatta, its unfortunate that we all have differnet opinions, but we need to look at the big picture(IMHO) of how to keep Catamaran Racing alive. I dont have the answers, never said I did. I wish we could fix whatever it was that has brought the decline of our sport, whatever our opinions say it is.

The difference of opinions has the potential to be a good thing, after all, innovation is sometimes very helpful.

The problem comes in when people don't get their way and instead of letting it go or working to improve it over time, hold a huge grudge and rub it in the faces of those who are doing the work...

Mike

Nobody said anything about the Laser Class being unsuccessful. The class is enormously successful. But its success is because they recognized early on that one sail does not fit all.

Well, not early on enough for me, back when I was sailing a Laser.

Dave
I just bought Jacob (my 10 year old) a Wave, got a 2000 model from by boy Brad at Sunjammers and got a really nice boat for reasonable. Just keep looking. Jake won't touch the 14 (seen my older son pitch it a million times) but loves the Wave,so if you can find one, DO.
BTW- Harry means well, he just doesn't use the emoticons to express his intent (maybe we all should.....)anyway, cut him some slack. He has some frustrations up in his neck of the woods that may be unique, and maybe barks a little louder because of it.
Anyway, its beautiful here. Sunny and 75, and looking forward to our race this weekend on the Mississippi River that our militant friend Karl FX/Oneboy is in charge of.

Well, that's one way of looking at it...

I think HC is the one with the grudge and not helping. In the old division 9 now EMSA we have not really changed. We still have most of the same regattas put on by the same hard workers and most of the same sailors. The only real difference is we don't get any support from HC and we don't call them Hobie Regattas, but all cats are welcome. If five of the same class Hobie's show up they get there own start. I just don't get why HC has a problem with this. You are racing od if you get five of the same boat Hobie or whatever. If you don't have five of your same class you go into the open class same as if I went to a Hobie only regatta and was the only one of my class. The sailors spend all the time and money putting on the regatta and we used to call it Hobie regatta. It was free advertising for HC done at the expense of sailors that love the sport and want to see it grow.

Why don't you race the Waves together with the two different set of rules and score them together and separate to see if the different sails make a difference and call it a one time test. Maybe then everyone would be happy. The wave is a Hobie I think.

For the record, HCA and HCC don't have a problem with what you're doing. If that becomes more successful than the Hobie Cat regattas in the rest of the country, more power to you.

Mike

Mike,

I know HCA and HCC don't have a problem they don't own the water, boats or sailors. My point is they don't provide any support or help if we let the X boats come to our regattas. WE have a great regatta that all cats are welcome even Hobie's called Spring Fever put on by a great group of people that love the sport and friendship with no support from HC that I know of. I think the biggest turn out was around 180 boats with most years being around 100 boats. If we had Hobie only regattas there are not enough Hobie's left to have a regatta. One of the regattas we lost was put on by a Hobie dealer.
Where is the rest of the country ? I don't know of any Hobie only regattas in the southeast NC, SC, GA, FL, most TX, TN, AL, LA I may be wrong on some sates.

You forgot MS.

Keep runnin' your mouth and you'll see militant.

Lighten up francis. Its supposed to be cold as **** I read now. High of 54? build a fire on the viking and have dick hand out hot chocolate.

If that is what you you guys do at Hobie regattas NO THANKS !

LOL, Dick is our PRO.

"If that is what you you guys do at Hobie regattas NO THANKS !"

So now you don't like hot chocolate???

Mike

No, I like hot chocolate I am just scared of the Viking and Dick

I was over at the Hobie site and saw this.

Wanted: Enthusiastic Hobie Sailors to help organize a few regattas in a few different areas of the USA.
If you live in VA, NC, SC, GA, S.FLA, AL,TN, KY, OH, IN, IL and are interested, please contact me offlist xanderwess@yahoo.com or call 641-425-8720
This position's comp package will most likely include: Tee shirts, some BBQ, some pictures of you on the internet and meeting some new people with like interests. Sorry, no 401k at this time.
Thanks
Chris Wessels
HR director, HCA-NA

Equal Opportunity Employer

All the Hobie's are welcome at the regattas we already have why don't you just support those. Take your rose colored glasses off and open your eyes there's more than just Hobie sailors out there.

Jeez, here we go again. I am lookig for a few people to get 'Hobie' fleets going in those areas. There is someone else (I would think) to get the other manufacturers or just Catamaran fleets in general going. Please don't give me a bunch of **** for doing the job I was asked to do. You might note the tone of that request was pretty light too......no need to bring my post over here from the Hobie forum and throw a dark cloud over it.
Dick is our PRO and the Viking is our divisions main boat.

Dear Pat,

After a long and pleasent conversation w/ someone I repect immencely I will apologize if I upset you .... that was not my intention. I have friends in common w/ you and they speak highly of your committment and passion. And I had a absolutely outstanding experience at the 2007 TheMightyHobie18/H17 North Americans. But the experiences I've had here in Div11 have been markedly different then yours in Div16. I would like to recommend that you carefully read Miss Tami's, Mr David Lennard's and Mr Mosely's posts and ask yourself a simple question ... why have these people chosen to leave or never join Hobiedom??? Talking among the "Hobie Believers" will not give you solutions/answers to the issues. (It's similiar to have someone else read your termpaper for spelling mistakes)

Just a thought, are you upset w/ me because I am a HCA-NA member???

Now I spent 5-6 years studing Mech Eng at Drexel University, learning to use "scientific methods" to analyse problems and reach the proper conclusions. Now everyone's experiences can be different and therefore everyone can reach different conclusions ..... it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong though.


Now for Mike/Brucat,

You have been excellent as the membership chairperson in increasing the HCA-NA's membership but ..... your statement that I do not really care and I do not think or get my facts correct .... well I do take that personally. I quess I shouldn't personally have joined RHYC so we could have a "Hobie Points Regatta" since Fleet 54 is having big issues on paying the insurance coverage for races on the Chesapeake Bay, or loading my Gravely Tractor into my F150, drive two hours and mow/trim the RHYC Yacht Club's 7-8 acre's of grass, or ask the "Board" personally so they agree to host a H14 Class Start .... or host a Hobie Points Regatta when I'm the only Hobie member at the Yacht Club. (It woulds cost the Div approximently +$1000 /weekend additionally to rent the club and the facilities not including the actual regatta fee's if I were not a member. Devide that by 30-35 boats and tell me how much I'm saving the Div11 sailors each by my paying $425.00/yr for membership)and working my butt off. Nowhere in my posts did I use vulgar language, insult or call people names ... I only stated my opinions that have been developed from my personal experiences since I started sailing "Beach Cats" in 1982/83. (And when did you start sailing/racing Hobies? ... 1998???)

Now I'm asking you politely not to insult me PERSONALLY ... I am 3/4 Scotch-Irish, 1/4 German and all CELT!!! You remember the Celt's ... they were the guys who would strip naked ... paint their bodies blue ... pick-up a "Claymore Sword" and charge you screaming at the top of their lungs, while hacking you to pieces.

So you can disagree w/ me but, keep on making personal attacks on this "bear" .... and you WILL NOT enjoy the response as I will be brutal, vicious and direct .... Let's take your last post for example: "If it becomes more sucessful the the Hobie Cat Regatta's in the rest of the country, more power to you"

Now we are talking about Wave's racing, so let's compare Apples to Apples should we .... as mentioned earlier in this thread there have been 4-5 Waves that have appeared at HCA-NA events and raced under IHCA rules ... while the IWCA event in Florida last December attracked approximently 20 competitors that raced under IWCA rules and there is more events in this year before December.

Hmmmmmmmmm .....

Your words .... "more power to you ....." So you support the IWCA rules I would quess ... or do you want to change your rules ?????

The reason I dropped out of the NAHCA after being one of the early members .... We, the TheMightyHobie18 Class sailors had submitted some minor rule changes for the TheMightyHobie18 Class ... they were voted on and turned down at the Annual Meeting which was held at the H16 NA's .... THERE WASN"T A SINGLE TheMightyHobie18 SAILOR (in all likelyhood) IN ATTENDENCE!!!!! Here's an idea, let's hold the meeting at the different NA Championships on alternating years. (Do you think the reason I maybe misinformed on the IHCA selection process is since it has only been held at H16 events????? and I race TheMightyHobie18's .... daaaaaaaaa????)

And how are you promoting "membership" by personally attacking HCA-NA members because of their various views that don't align w/ yours?????

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/ Fleet 54/Div11
P19MX/ CRAC/Open Class

Chris,

Your fundamental mistake is that you are confusing a Hobie Fleet/Yacht club with the sailors racing one design on a Hobie xx at some YC's/catamaran club event.

If my Yacht Club, offers any group of catamarans a start if they have 5 or more boats... and you start a campaign to pull one of those sailors out and have him start a NEW Yacht Club and then have this Club/Fleet run a race with at least one Hobie in a class = a race.... What do you think I and the volunteers at the Yacht Club would have to say about your efforts?

Now consider the fact that many of these organizations USED to belong to the Hobie universe of yacht clubs before they were forced to choose a different path...

Instead of trying to compete with the existing organizations that make catamaran racing go in the states you mention you should find ways to support those clubs that are vital to cat racing in huge chunks of the country.

... Perhaps you should look for FLEET CAPTAINS who would beat the bushes for Hobie XX's ... organize the troops, and get them to turnout at the YC events in the region and try to make those events as successful as possible.

Respectfully
Mark

Mark, you are completely full of ****.

yeah... how so?

Ah lets see. If someone told you the sky was blue, you'd tell em' its red. All you want to do is be a disagreeable schmuck about EVERYTHING. Chris isn't out there to pirate other clubs fleets. It just isn't the intent.

http://www.grassrootsthemovie.com/gr/Home.html

Something very important that all of you are overlooking.

Slow down and think.

Harry, I've re-read your prior response to Pat several times, and still don't see how you don't see that as offensive, but I'm willing to take your word for it. I only responded to your posts with countering facts, and got irritated when it appeared that you were attacking volunteers.

Your last post is full of even more erroneous information. Here are some corrections:

I bought my first Hobie Cat in 1990 while in college. Started racing in 1996, bought my first new boat in 1997, now I'm on my third new one.

Since you took the time to ask around about Pat AFTER you started laying into him, perhaps you should do the same for me. I'll bet you a beer that I've been more involved in Hobie class management since 1997 than you have since 1982, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that gem.

I'm Irish too, not sure what type, but again, probably not a point worth discussing.

I personally agree with the HCA policies and class rules. I also stand by what I said, if someone invents a better mousetrap, I'm happy for them. It doesn't affect me an iota, I'm not paid for any of this either.

Here is an exact quote from my reply on Oct 3, 2008 when we started formally discussing this:

"So, if allowing these non-Hobie parts for this event results in a huge Wave turnout, and lots of the Waves are there just because they were able to use whatever cloth they have available, call it a victory, and consider moving to have the IHCA Wave class rules changed permanently afterwards (for points regattas, etc.)."

More fun facts... In the intervening years when you decided not to renew your membership, several HCA AGMs were held at events OTHER than the H16 NAs.

I'm ready for your apology.

Mike

Sailing is largley a corinthian sport. The rules bear out the honesty. Use the rule book consistently and it will solve the majority of the problems. The rules are clear(usually) and apply to all sailors. It is obvious to me that COMMUNICATION is the issue in this case. Debate is assigned to the RC. Don't stroke out about it here... BTW, I am Irish. Have another beer and go to bed.

THAT's why I'm so irritable today. Too much blood in my alcohol system!

Mike

Happy Hour cures many ills.

Root cause issues can be revealed by happy hour, in my experience.

Where do you want to meet? ;-} Las Vegas? Maybe?

Mark, you can look at it however you want. I have a responsibility to my org, and that's as far as I go with it. If you feel I have made a fundamental mistake, I am sorry for that, but I plan on doing what it is that I do, and more of it. We have a good/great thing going, and always have and if I ever become part of some other form of sailing organization, then I'll do what I do for them. Until then, I don't think I am out of line by trying to solicite Hobie Sailors in less active areas to help organize Hobie events. You go on and do what you do, and I'll critique it for you later.

Xan,Bru, Matt, et al ,
What happened to the Hobie fleets that were in those areas?
I'd say David just proved his point in spades, it's a shame no one will listen.

I don't often understand nor agree with Mark, but he wins the prize here.

What happened to the Hobie fleets?
They were not Hobie fleets any more.

When any of us that our members of the HCA join, we do so voluntarily and are expected to follow the bylaws of the group we joined. It's our choice. If you choose a different group, fine.
My fleet has always followed the bylaws that we agreed to abide by. That doesn't mean we don't debate them and sometimes want them changed to keep up with the changing times, we do.
Everyone wants facts and to see results.
Our way of doing things has worked at achieving the results we are after.
You can read Tom's account of our fleet race last night.
If the idea is to get people sailing, including women and youth.
I would bet that there is no catamaran group in the country that is even close to the amount of boats we have put on the line over the last 20 years. Yes they are mostly Hobie 16's, THAT WAS THE PLAN.

Harry, I don't much care what color you paint yourself.
I'm not to quick at the forgive and forget stuff.
To many people think they can do and say what ever they like and think an apology makes it all go away.
I took a few minutes to look over results from Division 11,12 and 16 over the last ten years and can only find your name one time. Last year at Wildwood.
Over the same ten years I have helped run a couple of Nationals, sailed in NAC's on both coasts, the Florida gulf and some corn field in Iowa.
Not to mention many weekend regattas in at least 4 different divisions.
You certainly have a right to your opinions. They would have a bit more merit with a lot more participation.

Bisesi,

The Syracuse fleet isn't successful because it stuck to a brand. Syracuse is successful because it has dynamic leadership.

There is a degree of truth to that, Tami. But, I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that the support of the Hobie Cat Company hasn't hurt (intentional, major understatement).

In this case, the importance of the brand, beyond company support, is as Pat alluded to above. It gives everyone a core to hone in onto. While others may be successful at bringing together a bunch of boats to sail on handicap, Hobie fleets choose to focus on bringing together Hobie Cats.

It's hard to argue with their success.

Mike

I shall argue, because your paradigm has NOT worked in my neck of the woods, and apparently isn't working in a large part of the country, as is evidenced by Wessels' stepping and fetching to get people to develop fleets.

You see, when the fastest multihull sailors in the country live near you, and NONE of them sail Hobie... well... it's VERY hard to argue with that.

Leadership and a lot of volunteers is a given for success.
We really have no way of knowing if the brand made a difference.
I believe it had to help some.

One of my favorite authors is Napoleon Hill. In his 17 principals of success book he discusses a clearly defined definite major purpose as a key to success.
Right or wrong, we have chose to make Hobie's and more specifically the H16 as our definite major purpose.
I feel like we have been successful, others may disagree with our goal, but it's hard to argue with the results.

I enjoy following what is happening with F16,17,18, A cats, waves,N20 and the Tybee race. There is strong leaders in each of those groups.
The trouble with strong leaders is we (ME) are usally single minded and hard headed(guilty) (look Chris, I used the face thing)
I hope all the groups promoting those classes and events also find the success they have defined.

Nice face, Pat.

But at what point of trying to further our causes do we realize that the success of our cause comes at the detriment of another cause?

I believe your cause to be mutually exclusive, which it is. By building the Hobie-only fleets, you'll be pulling boats away from EMSA regattas by splitting the fleets. We all have lower turnouts at that point.

By builing the fleet inside EMSA, you can still achieve your goal of larger fleets of Hobies; you'll still have one design fleets and starts (with 5 boats of course), but you'll have the comraderie and strength of larger regattas.

Hobie doesn't have to support the whole regatta, but they could support any given fleet inside the regatta.

Tami, I was referring to Fleet 204's success. Other areas have floundered, probably for the very reason that you gave, no strong local leadership. There's only so much that "upper management" can do.

"The fastest..." Some, but arguably not all.

Trey, in a nutshell, as a class, we (the HCA) don't care about building large mixed-bag regattas. As Pat and Chris have stated, this is the direction that the Hobie class has chosen as our best path forward. Others may disagree, but we feel that this is the direction we want to go. And, for those who may have forgotten, we tried it the other way, the results were worse for the Hobie classes (it was just taking longer for fleets and events in weaker areas to completely evoporate).

I also agree with Chris on another topic, that this is what we do for the Hobie class. Many of us support other events, and wear the appropriate hats at that time. There is a time and place for handicap racing, and it can be fun as well.

So, for anyone trying to pin me down, good luck...

Mike

And that is why you will fail in the Southeast.
I know this area, I know these sailors, and I know the boats.

And for the record: I've got no bias for any manufacturer, other than the fact that I support and help lead the fleet in which I sail (N20).

That's an honest opinion that may have merit, and I respect that.

Mike

So Mike, given these statements you make, you and Wessels are duty bound to admit that your goals are not to promote BEACH CATAMARAN sailing, but HOBIE sailing.

And your goals are not best for the SPORT, but only best for the BRAND.

You both would be abject hypocrites to suggest that your ultimate goals are to promote CATAMARAN sailing, as Wessels tried to state within this very thread, and Todd Hart did correct.

It has again become crystal clear to me that within the HCA as you two represent it there is no altruism whatsoever for the sport, it's all about the brand. That's fine, but be damned sure you don't make any inclusive or sport-altruistic statements, for that would be lying.

I had a dog....and his name was "Bingo".

Mike, As a past, and hopefully future member of your fleet, I ask how our racing health is? Since the Hobie only ruling fleet 28 has died, and as far as I know numbers are way down for our races and regattas. I'm not a racer, but know we used to regularly have A,B and C fleets for 16s. Many who ran races, and served as RC had moved to Nacras but contributed a great deal to running and promoting the fleet. Now we have separate clubs, and smaller core groups running them. For the past decade my time has been devoted to senior care, and aside from a couple afternoons at nationals, my volunteer time was limited to emails and the forums. I have always appreciated the work done by you, and the others that have managed to keep our fleet alive, but wonder how it plays out in this debate. Maybe Bob Merrick will comment on his view, since he is an active racer. Thanks, Brian PS: I did show up in New Bedford at the learn to sail put on by Rick Bliss, when none of our fleet officers did.

Ok, I guess I will get myself in some real hot water now.
When IHCA sent down their Hobie only enforcement to the HCA, part of the plan was to implement a national scoring system for each class. You earned points by attending Hobie only events.
If you ranked in the top 35 in the 16 class you were invited to the supplied boat Nationals in Ventura. This was thought to be a three year program at that time. It turned out to be one year. This ranking system also helps qualify people to attend the Worlds run by IHCA.
So the ranking system doesn't really do much anymore. The good guys can still go and qualify even if IHCA doesn't give us any spots(I Think).
So where I'm going is, HCA does need to keep it's eyes open to what is going on all over the country. I know Chris is not clueless and does see what's happening.
We could be the HCA with the primary objective to promote Hobie sailing and an overall objective to promote Catamaran sailing. I know I have posted things like this before, Why not explore inviting A cats, Sharks, all F18's to a Hobie regatta on a trial basis and see how we do. The pre-qualified spots at the Worlds might be put in jeopardy,but is that more important than the overall health of the sport and ultimately our organization?
I think we could certainly use guys like Trey, Jake, Rick and many more on the same team.

Ok Mike, I will turn in my cards now. I did plan on retiring anyway after my highest finish ever at a Madcatter.

I want everyone to realize that the strength of an individual fleet does not represent what is going on in the racing scene.

For example, here in Santa Cruz:
I've got about 60 boats on the beach every summer of which maybe 2 ever race.

We get about 80 members that join our local fleet every year of which maybe 1/3rd ever race.

We generally get from 30-45 boats at every regatta many that are not members of any fleet.

J

I see this as the right time and place for everything. I am NOT against any other cats.

I don't see how polluting the HCA goals and objectives with the goals and objectives of other classes is a good idea. This has not worked in the past, and can be viewed as a contributor to the current state that Brian mentions (of course, there were other factors). SMOD was even adopted by NENSA for a while to push to get upwards of 13 Nacra 6.0NAs on the line at some of our regattas. Open class racing was simply not getting it done in New England, other areas reported the same issue.

For me, this is very simple, yet so complex (paraphrased from BTE)...

I own a Hobie, and want my primary racing to be done with as many other SMOD Hobies as possible.

I also occasionally enjoy racing in distance races, where the "necessary evil" means racing handicap (my issue with this has to do with the scoring issues that have been hashed out ad nauseum on this forum, not being anti-Brand ABC Catamaran).

I also enjoy running regattas for ALL types of boats. Optis, Lasers, lead mines, etc. My favorite races are cats, because not only is it more fun to sail, but it's also more fun to watch faster boats.

So, yes, I can be interested in the health of the Hobie class as a SMOD entity, and be interested in catsailing in general.

Based on some postings here, that seems to be something that certain individuals cannot compute, but I assure you that is more of a reflection of them than me.

Pat, if I ever even get a trophy at Madcatter, I'll probably have the boat bronzed...

Mike

I confess I had hoped the show of good faith displayed by clubs like ABYC in inviting Hobie points events would be met with corresponding Hobie regattas that would invite other classes to their events. The San Diego Classic, for example, would be a fun event for the F18s to race. There aren't very many Hobie-only regattas in SoCal, but that is one I have heard is a good time.

At the same time, it would be folly to ignore the passionate feelings on this issue. The debate stressed our club (Fleet 35/The Key Team) to the breaking point. Similarly, I watched a Fleet 3 meeting disintegrate when x-class was mentioned as a possibility by someone typically viewed as one of the Hobie faithful. As a result, I generally clam up on the topic. If Pat can get away with the post above without getting his head taken off, though, I think the conversation might be at a point where it might advance rather than melt down.

[/tangential hijack]

Okey dokey, I postulate this to all of you:

If it were so very important to us all, a majority of us all, or even just the hardcore racers for that matter... that we onedesign race, then this debate wouldn't even be happening.

Why, you all should be asking, don't the dedicated racers all go out and buy the same damn boat?

N 42

Did she call me a hypocrite? I don't remember saying anything but 'I promote Hobie sailing'. Catamarans in general, or open class events or whatever else is going on everywhere else: I'll leave that up to someone else to promote. They got people to do that. The hypocritical thing (if you ask me) in my most humble opinion: is that there are people out there, that act as if they hate our organization, and continually throw up as many road blocks as humanly possible, make hurtful statements, make negative remarks ( and you know all the rest) and expect HCA to change to be the way they think we should be, THEN tell me that if we were to work to build our ranks in said areas of the country that WE would be having a negative impact on the sport. Hhmmmmm. I, as you can imagine, have gotten Private Emails about this thread from MANY differnt people from MANY different parts of the globe (yes, everyones sarcasm is read in differnt hemespheres) and its not very flattering for any of us to be doing this fire/volley crap back and forth. I shouldn't even say that, because I have YET to make or even see an 'anti-catamaran event' statement come out of me or any of the Hobie People that have been involved in this thread. I HAVE seen enough Anti Hobie **** to choke a donkey. Tami, please don't call me a hypocrite. I have not minced words and I am not trying to be part of some grand scheme to undermine the existing racing scene anywhere. I am just trying to establish a few Hobie events here and there so all us Hobie-people north of the Mason Dixon line have a nice place to come spend our vacation money.
Don't you live around Biloxi? We are hopefully bringing some people down there for a pretty sizeable event next spring. Does that mean nothing to you? I was co-host of the Area K qualifier a few years ago, had 30ish boats, so don't go telling anyone I am anti Open Class racing. I got my butt kicked by N-20s all day long at that event. My H20 was great up wind then bye bye.....
Next?

You guys are always welcome at our events, even if you have a Northern drawl. We'll even roll the carpet out to you for travelling so far. Are you saying that you'll only travel to race in a Hobie-only event?

Pat B wrote


Really!... these are the results you are proud of?

Madcatter 2006 vs Madcatter 2009
H16 60 boats down to 50 boats.
H17 9 boats down to 0 boats.
TheMightyHobie18 2 boats down to 0 boats
Tiger 20 boats down to 7 boats.

You are right... I can't argue that you are not getting what you wanted...

What happened to the other sailors?

Mike wrote


Most people would call a regatta that has three classes (H16, 17 and 18) a mixed bag!

Why do you forget that its an ASSOCIATION OF SEVERAL CLASSES (real classes like Hobie 18's or just on paper class like Hobie Waves) The conflict of interest is enormous!



Right!... now you send poor Wessels out there to put humpty dumpty back together again ....But... Humpty Dumpty looks like a Hobie Only event which failed in the first place!

If it actually happened it would pull boats away from another regatta trying to break even and attract boats and it will certainly piss of the volunteers working at running events already.

Note added. re Pat's last post.
Consider what the world would look like if the Class association represented ONE CLASS of boats and just supported one design racing of 5 or more of those single class legal boats in any event in the country.

The yacht clubs aka hobie fleets would then be free to support all their local sailors and make money running races for classes that agree to come. BEFORE the Hobie EDICT... Hobie Fleet 54 ran races for the International Canoes at Gunpowder. (basically a half catamaran) They have also run races for International 14's. Mystere 6.0's, A class and god forbid... Open class

IMO... separate supporting the OD class business from the individuals who form a club and host a regatta.

Wessels, your words:
"Yes, we'll race, but it is all about the party, and hangin' out with the whole catamaran community." (italics mine)

I'm pretty damned sure that the WHOLE catamaran community includes boats which are NOT Hobie. So yes, you did say something other than 'i promote hobie sailing.'


" I am just trying to establish a few Hobie events here and there so all us Hobie-people north of the Mason Dixon line have a nice place to come spend our vacation money."

You "hobie-people" (your words, is that like 'white people?') already have very good events down here which are established for many MANY years to come vacation to. You can support those, THEY ARE ESTABLISHED. Do you not understand? PRECEDENT. PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED. GETTING ALONG. UNIFIED. JUST FINE. WELCOME TO ALL AND SUNDRY, INCLUDING HOBIES. SO BRING YOUR butt ON DOWN AND DON'T FUK WITH US.

Here. Let me explain. It would be one thing if a: there were no previously established groups at all; or b: there were established SMOD groups which you would be building on. But the game is very much changed when you and your ilk seek to barge in to a situation well established and smoothly running and impress exclusivity and divisiveness upon it. Therein lies the anger, and apparently it's not unique to my area.

Hobie let Pandora open the box, and now with the edict seeks to close it. Live with the consequences.

Where is Sylvester McMonkey McBean when you need him?

This has really turned into the "Sneetches on the Beaches"!

Fleets are dying left and right from all classes and categories of boats. It's not Hobie's fault there are 20 abandoned H16's at my club, anymore than it's their fault there are 20 abandoned Highlanders, or 12 abandoned Interlakes. But if Hobie wants to promote a Hobie regatta, why is that any different than Customflex promoting an Interlake regatta?

I'm out of popcorn, and just lost my appetite...

Here. Let me explain. It would be one thing if a: there were no previously established groups at all; or b: there were established SMOD groups which you would be building on. But the game is very much changed when you and your ilk seek to barge in to a situation well established and smoothly running and impress exclusivity and divisiveness upon it. Therein lies the anger, and apparently it's not unique to my area.

Hobie let Pandora open the box, and now with the edict seeks to close it. Live with the consequences.

I said that? I don't remember. I am pretty sure, hanging out with a few of you would entail me sitting there trying to suck down a Heineken and being yelled at because you're pissed about something I have no control over.
Tell you what: I can call the guys at Ocean Spring Yacht Club and tell them Tami said we shouldnt have an event there because we're bringing our exclusivity and FUKing with all of you. 'Hobie-People'/'White people" are you ****ing kidding me? Digging pretty deep now.
Look, if my Board of Directors (Div chairs/womens rep) tell me that we're going to do open regattas, then fine. But until then, we're gonna go the way we're going. You seem to hate, because we're not doing things the way you want us to. What the hell is all that about? You don't do things the way I want, but I don't throw sh#t at you. And just because we have a full sailing schedule of Hobie Events that the bulk of the 'hobiepeople' like to go to, why are you getting bent at the fact they don't drive 600 miles to go to a multihull regatta somewhere in the south? Is that their fault for not wanting to go or yours, for not making is more attractive to them? You can toss your negativity around all you want. I am charged with maintaining and trying to build my group. That's what I am doing and if you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you. According to Trey, I WILL fail.

Really!... these are the results you are proud of?

Madcatter 2006 vs Madcatter 2009
H16 60 boats down to 50 boats.
H17 9 boats down to 0 boats.
TheMightyHobie18 2 boats down to 0 boats
Tiger 20 boats down to 7 boats.

Almost successful Mark
Rest assured, measures are being taken to eliminate those last 7 boats.
Thanks for the input.

Good one pat!

G.Zeus, man, YOU used the term 'hobie people,' how nice is that? Do you think those sort of expressions make X-brand boat owners feel like joining your cause? It smacks of snobbery, but hey, I'm sure that's good for the sport... and you wonder why the bitterness.

Why is it so difficult to understand that the situation is dire enough that telling ANYONE they can't come play in the sandbox is a bad idea, ESPECIALLY when the sandbox has been previously accessible to all?

Allow me to tell you a story:
Years ago, the only game in town was Hobie catamarans. There were lots of fleets and an established points system. And then, for whatever reason, people within these fleets began to leave, either to other types of boats or to leave altogether. Which was ok, 'cause the Brand X guys had their own stuff going on, and so did the Hobie guys.

And then, one day, the Hobie fleets, for whatever reason, didn't have enough numbers to fill out their regattas, so they opened up their regattas to all and sundry. The Brand X guys even stepped up and ran the races and they were certainly there to keep things going, I think the term 'delayed' was used, but it kept these groups from dying out immediately altogether. I know, I was one of those people keeping it going.

Now, the HCA has decided, not in the interest of beachcat sailing in and of itself, but for brand promotion and market share, that they will bar those who KEPT THE FLEETS ALIVE for all those years from participating.

Call that negativity all you like, but it's just plain obvious that I'm just voicing the cries of my sport when I say to you that EXCLUSIVITY WILL KILL THE SPORT. I've been watching it die, which process was accelerated by the Edict, and I'm damned if I'll let it go quietly. If the Edict had worked, Wessels, you wouldn't have to be out there beating the bushes.

You answer me one question, which I asked earlier, and you'll likely solve the problem:
If it were so very important to us all, a majority of us all, or even just the hardcore racers for that matter... that we onedesign race, then this debate wouldn't even be happening. Why, you ALL should be asking, don't the dedicated racers all go out and buy the same damn boat?

I would suggest to you that just about without exception we ALL, even those who are 'negative,' used to sail Hobie. WHY DID WE LEAVE? Maybe you ought to solve THAT problem and not go cutting folks out of the sandbox.

I guess that sums up the mentality of the mythical "Way of life" BS. That remark and the following cheer is attitude loud and clear, you just don't get it.

Have A Hobie Day!

I'll get to work on it right now.
I am heading to a regatta up on the Mississippi River at Lake City Minnesota, so I won't have computer access and will miss the next 33 pages of this thread. Please feel free to text me paragraph after paragraph on WHY the HCA has ruined the world and why I should go against everyone in my groups wishes so that you will finally be happy. Oh yea, Lee? He was joking. So was I. Sarcasm only goes from Open class TO Hobie I guess. Hobie to anyone else doesn't work I see.

Before you go... could you find the results of the vote of the rank and file Hobie sailors approving/disproving the hobie edict and publish them here?

Someone doesn't get it.

Well Pat,

you make an interesting point here. That is, I've often found it analogous between the Harley and the Hobie mentality. I'm just not sure that the marketing strategy which works for Harley riders will work for multihull sailors.

Phew, OK Tami, I'm just glad your not yelling at me

Bisesi, you voiced exactly what I had in mind. Invite everyone to the party and then you can sell 'em on the goods. What is so complicated about that?

Word.

I thought that was serious since Hobie Tigers aren't made by Hobie US. Seemed to fit after what Hobie US did about stopping the Hobie Wildcat from being raced in the Tybee, then sold as a USED boat.

Have a nice regatta ... and abuse Karl ... just alittle please

I'll take my "Hot Chocolate w/ a splash of "Irish Cream" Please ....


Harry
TheMightyHobie18(mag)/ Fleet54, Div11
P19MX/ CRAC, "Open" Class

See! Tami does get it.

I have stayed out of this one, cause I have some different and strong opinions on some of theses things. But I would like to hold out that one one the biggest reasons for the lack of growth is the "Dude" boats. You know what I mean, the boat that is mostly sailed 2 Dudes.

What our success is based upon is a boat that can be raced ,sailed and rigged (trailered, etc) by couples or teens or 2 chicks....you get what I mean) I have owned and raced Dude boats (I20 & F18's) and they were fun, once they are on the water. But I am mostly an amateur racer, and even tho it may not be the slickest sailing boat, there is no better bang for the buck than the Venerable 16. Most places you can run into good size fleets with a great cross section of folks.

Until we get to a critical mass with F18 in this country we will not see any fleets with the size and the depth the 16 provides. A Cat is approaching the size, The depth is crazy, but the boat is a techie & a VERY expensive rig to run. you can get 2 NEW H16;s maybe more for what a new Acat costs) I have race other cat class Nationals, and frankly while there are great sailors there, a 15-20 boat NA's is no big thrill. (maybe Im spoiled)

I sail in the Southeast quite a bit and see very little in the way of youth promotion. Virtually no female skippers. All dude boats.

End of that rant.

OK, how bout monohull type view. Someone said why don;t the hardcore racers buy the same boat. Well, the mono peeps DO!@!! They search out the tough classes and whether or not it is the sexiest boat, they buy, learn and race it. The deffinition of the hardcore racer.

Racing is not who has the fastest boat, its who makes their boat go the fastest.

Gimme a NacrcornprindleAQUACATwaveBLADEtornado at a decent price point , with a good RC and a place to race and I'm IN.

Flame suit on.

Your milage may vary

Take someone new sailing!!!

Point High and Foot Fast!!!

Yep Tami, Why would a dedicated racer run away from a good class cuz da boat ain't sexy

The 'dude boat' killed the Hobie fleets?

Did the H16 cease production? Did it become only regionally available? Have we all not heard of the H16? Did it get more expensive?

come on now, people freely CHOSE another boat, when the H16 was there for the choosing. As promoters, you should find out WHY. Don't force your agenda, this is causing resentment.

Ask the right questions, offer better alternatives. Better alternative offerings are working well for Hobie in Europe... Hell even Volkswagen will tell you, 'give the people vhat they vant.'

Oh... and something else... from Brownsville to Key West, I'm pretty damn sure that there isn't a "good sized" fleet, and on the Louisiana coast, there isn't a fleet AT ALL. Really. I promise. I'm here. I'm da Mama, I know everyone. I'm not repeating someone else's marketing spiel.

Not any 16 class racing going on here. I only see a sprinkling of em around.

Tami,

I think you missed the Whole gist of my post. The dude boat didn't kill Hobie fleets, they just kill their own fleets. A great class just keeps going. i.e LAser, Lightning..H16...) There is always a bigger faster Dude boat (boy, it really reminds me of the Offshore powerboat guys)

I am just trying to give my own experiences, which are positive. No agenda, just having fun sailing with my kid and wanting to increase participation.

I'm just coming from a place that is growing and want to share what has worked for us.

Anyone can pick what boat they want to sail (I like my H16 & F/c31 wink)

No angst here, just alot of great racing and sailing.


Just remember It's just my choice, I can handle the repercussions.

Your group is unique in the country. And, as I have said previously, well led, by dedicated active folks. Y'all have made your dedication multi-generational.

Therein lies your success. INVOLVEMENT.

you are right, peace and reachin tami

two hulls are better than one, but are three hull TJAT much better???

Yes! They should all go out and buy Nacra 20s!

Tom

I agree with you that dude boats shift the racing scene as well as the social scene.

Way way back when.. a thread started by Ding who posed the question about being unwelcome at regattas... which actually started this wave thread.

I think you can make a case that when the dude boats start to predominate in a region or at a regatta... the simple Hobie 16 with an average family guy and his kid MIGHT start to feel like he doesn't fit in. He might be less likely to keep sailing.

Yacht clubs work it so that one fleet runs the events for the other... imagine a world where the F18 and A class and Hobie 20 fleets ran the Hobie 16, 17 and 18 and slow dead boat regattas on the first weekend and they reciprocated for the third weekend? Both fleets would run a few events for Newbies and rec sailors (eg the catapaloza event they described.

NO ... NO ... NO ...

the BEST Racer/Beach Cat EVER .... the TheMightyHobie18

(and I know you had one Kieth !!!! HAaaaaaaaa .....)

By the way are some of the I/N20's coming to Rock Hall on June 19th-21st from WRSC????

Yes ... Yes ... Yes ?????

Harry

Awhile ago I crewed for an SCCA C-Sports racer. I asked him what the best class was to get started and go racing. He replied "pick the class that feels like a race car to you", point being if you didn't like the car/class you'd eventually lose interest. I believe he was right. Same thing for boats.

On the dude boats - dude boats happen two ways - one is that the boat picked requires two dudes. The other is that two dudes want to go racing and need a boat that can float them. Non-dude boats typically have a crew weight that excludes dude crews. Having a mix of boats helps ensure wider participation.

Actually, the largest participation of mono-types (at least around the Chesapeake) is PHRF. And, for the OD monos there are a bazillion mono classes to choose from. And, when a yacht club has a regatta you'll find starts for a bunch of those classes. The Snipes are not telling the Lightnings and 505s they can't play.

say it isn't so.

Is there truth to this Mr Miller?
ouch.....

Nailed it!

I think the above statement is right on. The average guys don't want to play anymore.

What made Hobie work in multiple classes was the camaraderie of "Hobie", but we were getting thinned out by our own multiple classes and "Dude" boat mentality. Bigger, better, faster... more money, more rules and less fun. 204 has understood this all along and promotes a class that draws people in.

This is what the HCA is after as a whole... hold on to a few of the most active classes and build back on the fun. It is a bit like Harley Davidson in a way. Hobie people like to hang with other like-minded and yes, branded people. Its just the way people are... car clubs, bike clubs... whatever. They like it when things are pretty much alike. Before I EVER got into racing... we hung at a Hobie beach and Prindle had their area. It is just the way schools of fish are. Trying to stretch that to include all cats as one group is really... out there. It works in a way, but... not really tight like your own boats. H16, N20, F18 whatever. They gravitate to each other. That is the same at Yacht Clubs... the specific fleet guys hang together for the most part. When the Hobie fleets ended up with so many classes of boats and then different multihulls, the comraderie changed and thinned out. Hobie didn't kill it... its just the way things changed over time.

I actually don't know the details, but I did hear that. I bet it had to do with improper importation by Hobie France. We can't even get one yet. I am sure sales didn't want France to allow importation of a new product outside the correct channels. We have very strict territory agreements. We have too to protect the Hobie trademarks World Wide.

Tami, we share a similar experience in Div.4 as Fleet 204. You are right,it is the people. Multiple fleets can still coexist. At a recent Regatta we saw the resurgence of the H-14 Fleet. The Tiger fleet is probably our fastest growing fleet. Some have shifted from the H-18, Others have rejoined Hobie racing from the big boats. Second and third generations share positions on all the boats; Waves, H-14's, H-16's, H-18's and Tigers. Even our H-17 Fleet is growing with some new younger sailors.

It is the people, not the boat. Very few are racing new boats. Most of our racers have family affordable experienced boats.

Caleb Tarleton
Fleet 95, Div 4

The main reason I left Hobie is they don't make a boat that fit my needs. I had a 16 and 18 but when I got older and gained weight I could not compete with the lighter crews. The F18 class offers different sails and adding weight to equal the boats. The A cat offer different sails and mast to equal boats. Hobie really just supports the H16 now since they don't make the 14,17,18,20 any more.

I guess I don't understand what OD racing is that HC talks about. I thought it was the same boats racing together like H16, H17, N20, F18, Acat. I don't understand why they have to have there own regatta with HC only to sail OD. The A cats, F18, N20, M24, Laser, sunfish, shark all sail at the same regatta and are OD. Look at last years Spring Fever results http://www.twinhulls.com/springfever2009/09results1/ there was only one open class for a few odd boats all others had there OD class. Why does HC not promote the H16 and have a east coast championship at that event it would cost them nothing and may bring more boats to there class.

I think it is great you compare Hobie to Harley. I just picture mostly over weight women in little clothes with lots of skin art smoking and being drunk oh and mud wrestling. Guys with lots of leather, skin art really loud bikes. I think that fits great with the Hobie Cat way of life.

HCA might want to update the divisions and fleet list some of the ones I looked at were several years old. I would guess that most fleets listed do not fit the HCA bylaws by being active at least the ones in NC.

sorry, but no matter how big the dude boat, we will still be racing, increasing participation, sp?, and having fun.

I LOVED MY DUDE BOATs, and I know a chick that sails dude boats better than most dudes(SPK). But I go back to what I said, It doesn't have to be the biggest, fastset, techie-est to make me wanna race it. and I can't sell that type of boat to newbies.
(read as tryin to bring new sailors in)

Sail on

T

Dave,

I have been for HCA or whatever it is to scrub Tiger 1 design and make the starts F18. Almost had it in the early 2000's but was sabotaged by a "big" guy. Crikkie we had Skiddie & J young on the same chase boat.

ah well.....the good ole days

I could of had another 10-15 boats at Madcatter if we embraced F18...

Dave, here is ours at Division 4. http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/

Note stories, reports, pictures, and links to each Fleet, and class.

Caleb Tarleton

You don't know Harley... or Hobie.

Dude boats ?

Good thing we did the F16 class then !

The best of all worlds and growing all over !

Wouter

No need for overpriced brand-labeled clothing and 'pseudo-bonding' marketing when your product speaks for itself.

Bingo!

For our area, the open class is our lead-in. Grab whatever you can find and come on out and see what it is all about. Don't want to scare the pants of somebody by starting them in a N20 or A-Cat. But if you want to move to an OD boat you now have the choice of N20, A-Cat, and F-16. If those don't fit, start drumming up others and start to build a fleet within the regular open racing, or buy want and continue open class. I'm really happy that a 16 footer (F-16) seems to be the next class being built at WRSC out of the WRCRA scene. For awhile I thought the H-16 would be a great choice, but I've come to believe that the F-16 is the best choice. Why? It can be raced heads up either singlehand and uni or 2-up as sloop. The spin satisfies those of us that are just addicted to spinnakers (spins are not oversized). Multiple manufacturers (would love to see a Hobie F-16). Sail/race by yourself, sail/race with your kid, sail/race with your sig other. Swiss Army knife flexibility in a nice fast boat. But now I'd have to add another to the reasons - not having to deal with this crap.

I love the Hobies I have sailed/raced in the past (in the future I could see owning an 18 again as a beach buster), and I gladly welcome any boat to our Tuesday night action (bring on the AquaCats!). We're about promoting multihull sailing, and indoctrinating newbies into the dark side. They rarely go back. The exclusionary attitudes being displayed here are the last thing that will be helpful in that mission.

The point was... the camaraderie of like minded people.

Your example does fit the attitude of many catsailor posters in regard to Hobie classes though.

Just in case there are any people new to catamaran sailing or racing who are reading this thread....please ignore it. Don't let it turn you off from checking out your local catamaran scene or attending any regatta for which you are willing to meet the entry requirements.

The People: All of the people posting to this thread that I know personally are really cool people. I know that some are very passionate and have worked very hard for their particular interests, racing formats, clubs, associations, or whatever. I believe the catamaran sailing community is better off for all of their efforts (except for some of the impassioned offerings of this thread).

The Boats: I've been on a lot of different multihulls and had a great time on every one. Hell, I have a great time on my father-in-law's O'Day Daysailer when I visit him and my cat is 125 miles away!

The Races: It takes an incredible amount of effort to put on regattas, and I am thankful for them all, even the ones that I am unable or choose not to attend. I have been to a lot of regattas (HCA sanctioned and open, at fancy yacht clubs and at bars). I have felt welcomed and had a great time at every one. Others' experience may be different, but I do not think that mine is a coincidence. My personal preference is to race boat for boat with other boats of my class. In addition, I prefer buoy racing as opposed to distance racing. Will I do a class sanctioned buoy regatta within a reasonable travel distance....yes. Will I do a distance race in an open fleet on Portsmouth within a reasonable travel distance....absolutely. Each one has it's own challenges, pros, and cons. I believe that the majority of sailors who race in my area are of the same mindset. Most do not know exactly what's required for their boat to be class legal, and most have not taken the time to learn how the Portsmouth system works. They just want to go and have a good time with good people.

The Sport: This situation is complicated....I don't believe there are any simple answers. There are many issues that have lead to the decline of sailing/racing in general and catamaran sailing/racing in particular. I'm sure it's one factor, but I don't believe that the move toward non-Hobie sailing and open racing in my area of the Southeast significantly hurt Hobie racing. Conversely, barring direct schedule conflicts, I don't think that the addition of some Hobie only events would significantly hurt open racing. And if I'm wrong, so what? Thankfully, folks have the right to put on whatever type regatta they choose, and folks have the choice of whether or not to attend. It will either work or it will not, but I would wish them well and admire them for trying, rather than bashing them. I do not believe we'll ever understand exactly what caused the decline of this sport or create a perfect formula for building it back, but I do know one thing. This thread is not helping.

Well, what we all need to do is chip in, along with the major cat manufacturers, to produce a half-hour infomercial that is all about sailing catamarans. And then offer a catamaran for $19.95 for a 60-day free trial period. If you are not completely satisfied, send it back for a complete refund.

Jerome:

AMEN! I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Yesterday, I took out and sailed (for the first time) one of our club's newly acquired "vintage" H16's. Here are my observations versus my Nacra 20. The boat is slower, likes to hobby horse (or is that Hobie horse), is lacking a self tacker, is missing a spinnaker and does not have nearly enough ropes to pull

On the plus side, it was a kick, it can be righted easily (yes I intentionally flipped it qualifying one of our new sailors!) and is a versatile teaching and racing boat. Oh, and by the way, it takes me two hours to rig my N20 and 15 minutes to rig the Hobie.....I'm just sayin...

Different strokes. I don't give a "Flying Scott" what you sail under the "Sun"fish. With "Laser" like precision the "Viper"ous assaults have run their course.

In the end, you are left with your own question to answer....."Ho...bie or not Ho...bie that is the question.".

Peace out, just keep one hull out of the water and it will be a'ight.

In sailing,

Ken Altman
Fleet Captain OSYC
N20 "Kani Basami"

P.S.: Come to my damn Regatta on July 4-5 (Horn Island Hop) and bring what u got. We have enough beer to solve the problems of the world.

Hey, shout out to Jerome: What is up my friend? Looking forward to seeing you next spring hopefully in Ocean Springs.

Just got back from a points regatta at Sandy Hook. We had a nice fleet of 6 IWCA Waves racing, good to see.

Matt Miller wrote


In Hobie Alter's interview with SA... He stated... He was told and agreed with the notion to NOT let the RACERS run the class... cause they would ruin it. Well, it turns out that the racers are the survivors here... not the Hobie Lifestyle sailors... In 2009, It is the racers who have the commitment to keep the organization needed to get a critical mass of people out to a race at a regatta. The racers definition of fun has become very similar to any one design class (big boat or dinghy or cat class) I have looked at. Good racing with lots of boats = fun

The Hobie experience is one where the overwhelming majority of sailors got their start in the Hobie 16 class where the shared experience again is racing on the course and then this experience develops into the social structure of the beach. Hobie Alter successfully turned this relationship 180 degrees. He marketed and branded "the Hobie Lifestyle" first... by Lifestye I mean, the beach experience, camraderie, etc with SMOD racing. This is not the conventional way of building a class but was a great business plan and it worked for years and years.

As you noted... many of these 16 sailors then moved on to one of the other Hobie classes, (new and better yada yada yada always sells.. = good business decision) but creating lots of H branded classes is ALSO counter to a One design class's interest. Many racers moved to those other H class and other catamaran classes (oops) or even big multihulls and so the HCA artificially creating and running lots of H branded racing classes did not work as you note and slowly melted away.

At any rate… if you separate the Yacht Club/Hobie fleet from the Hobie Class business of promoting their OD class (like every class does and should) and have each OD Class ask the local Hobie club or Yacht club to host their single One design class event… the sailors in each class in the region would own the results and the YC / Hobie Fleet could worry about the budget and how to attract more fleets (high performance monohulls and other cat OD classes) or they could worry about the Dude classes versus more family friendly classes... the type of events (distance or buoy) or work on growing a Wave class, or any other creative solution that speaks to the decline of interest that Pat B spoke about in the Question thread and every YC is struggling with. Fun is the reason any sailing class gets it together to go racing.... It just will look a bit different then back in the Hobie lifestyle days.

For example, Division 11 took advantage of the change in Hobie policy to run a Hobie 14 points regatta at Rock Hall Yacht Club which is hosting a lot of monohull and other cat fleets. A good solution for the YC, (more sailors) Good for the H16 sailors who can bring out the ol H14 without missing a beat on the H16 circuit for the one H14 event a year on the schedule.... (even though they are always invited to points regattas) and it’s good if they have kids who want to race their H16 or TheMightyHobie18 boat in the open class. Variety is the spice of life.

So Mark, you lost me......I didn't get it.....you didn't really bitch about anything at all in that last post......now I am getting a little nervous.......what the hell are you up to?

I see many more casual cat sailors at my beach than i do racers....

No doubt! On my beach I am the only racer and the other sailors have absolutely NO... nada ... interest in organizing any sailing, much less racing. Sandy Hook has at least a 100 boats but few race.

At any marina... the overwhelming majority of monohulls don't race either.

THESE FOLKS DON'T NEED OR WANT A CLASS... They want a dealer to service their boat and a pleasant no hassle beach to sail from... The don't need to organize at all! Few probably belong to a sailing club either. ... the big issues are probobaly cutting grass, paying the bills, repairing the grills... having inflated tires on trailers so management can move them and keep the place trimmed... management type stuff.

Racer's on the other hand have to agree on a lot of details... So... that is the debate .. How do the racing classes interact with each other and the Yacht clubs/Hobie Fleets who put on the racing.

If a recreational sailor decided to give it a try... the racers would bend over backwards to help him out... BUT... he still might feel like he doesn't fit in (unwelcome).... see Tom Korz and his Dude boat observation... see Matt Miller and his branding observation, see the IWCA and their unique courses that work for them, See Tami and her idea that most of us ought to get the same kind of boat and leave the rest of the casual racers alone, etc. Lots of issues and ideas...

It SHOULD be total noise/BS for a non racer.

Hey, get off of here and respond to my email...., leave these fine people alone and answer my question, please. Include in your answer how your sail home was on Sunday

Yes, still a stranger here, but after posting a few and reading every comment, it feels like I've gotten to know a few new friends. One post was long, really going somewhere, and then ended saying this thread 'wasn't helping'. I could not disagree more. It is arguable that everyone operates on some level of self interest, even if their proceedings seem selfless. This thread showed diversity of opinion in the extreme. I've had my understanding of the catamaran community vastly expanded just for the reading. Let me say that it is my opinion that most in the Hobie class feel an openness to the greater variety of catamaran sailors, though in the realm of racing, it is difficult to make that assertion stick because of the HCA ODP. Yet, I currently spend all of my training and recreational sailing time amongst non-hobie sailors, as well as kiters and wind-surfers. Doesn't seem to be any problem there! I believe we need a little more acceptance of realities and differences.

On another note, it can be said that cat sailing has had dramatic declines, but it is clear that the decline in all of sailboat racing in particular here in the US has declined to an even greater degree. On the One-Design scene, the H-16 is the envy of the Yacht Clubs here in the west. Some are stuck in their jealousy, and others are embracing us for the first time, and we're finding new venues and opportunities. I raced three weeks ago in a Hobie Points Regatta at Long Beach by Alamitos Bay Yacht Club among Thistles, F18's, Finns, as well as 3 other dinghy classes. All thanks to the last revision to the HCA One-Design Policy that Chris Wessels and Bob Merrick brought on. Our H-16 fleet boasted 14 boats. Yes, one of the largest OD classes. The best part, as a result of the ABYC experience, there was a new H-16 racer from Long Beach who came to the San Diego Classic and is on fire. We're all doing our best I guess. It's great to get some results once in a while too.

and now they wont let the WAVES sail in the race to cuba. Maybe I will enter the TYBEE next year and see

I double dog dare you...

..Triple dog dare ya!

ah, yes. The double dog dare....

We were accepted into the Delta Ditch run this year as our own fleet. F-18 was the second largest "one design" fleet. Our own scoring . Thanks to Richmond Yacht club, Stockton Sailing club and The Ditch Run Orginizers.
Maybe here on the left coast the mono guys are accepting us , but we do have sailors involved in some of the yacht clubs.

On the right coast, the Yacht clubs have welcomed us as well, its only Hobie that does not accept us. I dont mean to slam anyone with that statement, nor am I trying to rehash the whole bad blood thing, but as I read your post about monohulls and being accepted, it donged on me where the acceptance and denial fell.
Most of us have joined Yacht Clubs and brought that Catamaran enthusiasm which breathed new life into the whole club. The monohullers are not only tolerant, but appreciative that we have come to help them with thier regatta's and brought new regatta's to their club. There are still some monohull purists out there, but we are winning them over slowly but surely.

"Triple dog's" go first.

Gordo, Great post! Thanks for chiming in, and for your service to the sailing community.

Hey Thanks Dave. There hadn't been a negative Hobie comment in a few pages, but thanks for hitting us again. I was starting to get a good feeling about things again, but it passed as soon as I read your post.

the truth hurts my brother, sorry for being honest.

Allready got 3 Tybees notched. Next.

Dave, how true and all the best to any class that has realized, and is pursuing, this avenue...it's working in middle america as well.

IMO, the Hobie 16 Class Association of North America may some day morph into the Hobie 16 & Wildcat CANA, but that will do little more than provide more events for Wildcat teams to race. The F18 class will never be brought "into the fold".

resistance is futile - you will be assimilated.


Gosh o'modey...it's Friday.

Wow! I guess racing is racing in whatever form you choose. Be it cars, motorcycles, ect. I engage in activities that use vehicles ie H16, windsurfers, motorcyles but avoid racing for ALL OF THE ABOVE posts. It always seems that racers just want to bicker instead of have fun. I understand racers need to race and how acute it is.....but dang it sure gets in the way of a good time. Now if you will excuse me, Im gonna go have some fun on my boat. Im gonna try trolling for fish while sailing wish me luck. Sometimes ya got to go slow to catch the fish.

I've done that. My son and I casted for Crappie between races at Big Marine Lake in Mn a few years back.

Tx246:

Racing will make you a better sailor. You have to learn to get form point A to B, not just reach out and reach in like most recreational sailors do. Not that you don't know how to sail.

Doug

Racing doesn't make you a better sailor, it makes you more aware of the rules. Racing points out what you may do wrong but I can't see why you think it makes you a better sailor. Training and experience make you a better sailor. Turning cans is all about ego, who can do it faster. Thats all any kind of racing is about, whos faster. I race mtn bikes downhill and dual slalom and I can assure that the best, most technical racers rarely win. Its the ones that let it all hang out that can go the fastest, usually out of control.

The best days on a cat have nothing to do with racing!

"Racing doesn't make you a better sailor..." Disagree. Racing sharpens the skills that make recreational sailing more pleasurable.

What? don't you point, reach, tack and jibe when sailing recreationally? Other than rounding a static mark what exactly do you learn while racing that can't be learned otherwise? Racing requires a special knowledge that has no application in recreational sailing. Sure, you need to know the basic rules of the water to sail anywhere, but you don't need to know rounding rights, overlap, windward/leeward to enjoy sailing a catamaran.

I'd suggest that there are plenty of cat racers who do not want (and don't) bicker and do have fun. A small noisy minority of Internet sailors may not be representative of the broader church of catamaran racing. You should try some fun shorter distance races - great cameraderie, fun sailing and fun partying before during and afterwards before dismissing the concept of racing. Then try some buoy racing - at first it can be an exercise in frustration making it around the course efficently and finishing a long way behind the leaders, but this is because buoy racing is merciless for exposing gaps in peoples boat handling/tuning/trimming - but it is also a great way of improving all this and the vast majority of racers are eager to help you improve. Eventually you may find you are hooked on racing (I am a hopeless adict).

Chris.

My experience is the best sailors are the fastest. Being a wild man/woman and pushing the edge without all the skills of reading wind/water, tuning your boat, good strategy and tactics and flawless boat handling normally results in lots of entertainment for spectators and a lot of swimming for the individuals concerned.

For many of us the best days on a cat have a lot to do with racing - the great combination of being at one with the wind and waves, the team work on the boat, friendly but serious competition with others and the cameraderie before and after the race.

"What? don't you point, reach, tack and jibe when sailing recreationally? Other than rounding a static mark what exactly do you learn while racing that can't be learned otherwise? Racing requires a special knowledge that has no application in recreational sailing. Sure, you need to know the basic rules of the water to sail anywhere, but you don't need to know rounding rights, overlap, windward/leeward to enjoy sailing a catamaran."

Racing skills come in pretty handy if you're trying to beat a storm back to the beach, or trying to reach the beach before sundown and the "no seeums" come out.

The competitive nature of racing hones those skills. For instance the racer who picks-up a subtle current or persistent shift is rewarded immediately and learns to look for them.

I have participated in different forms of racing(dirt track, motocross, and other offroad dirtbike stuff and it always some form of drama...especially at the front. I love my dirtbikes and ride on mototracks on practice days, ride offroad all of the time.

I agree that "racing" will make you a more efficient sailor but as long as I get to where I want, Im happy. Racing in any form will always raise "equipment" and "rules" issues as yall have here. Im sure the after parties are great and the friendships are real. I understand the need to be the fastest, but I dont subscribe.

Im sorry if my previous post implied racing isnt worthy. We all have better boats and technique because of racing. I was trying to point out that Cat racing has the same level of drama as other forms of racing and like all in all cases, thats a shame.

I am a member of a dirtbike forum that used to host an annual weeklong event where people came from all over the country for a bunch of riding and facetime. We rented a prominent motocross facility that had trails for the off road crowd. The week was a blast. All speeds and talents, friends riding with friends, camping and bsing till wee hours of the morning. On Saturday there were "races" and I never saw so much griping over 5 dollar trophies. These events grew to 350 riders which required lots of volunteer/prep before the event. In the end, the lack of appreciation for the efforts of the organizer, killed the event.

Racing is rarely, just finding out about who is fastest.

"Racing is rarely, just finding out about who is fastest."

+1

Thats pure BS! If not there to win why race at all. Its not free! If I am on a line to start in any event its about winning, pure and simple. Not that I always win but I always think I can!

I agree with most of what you guys are saying but I also believe -nothing- will get the adrenaline pumping like real, tight, windy, racing. Racing forces you to perform under pressure, pressure you will never face when you are out "cruising".

When I first got into sailing some 30 years ago, I had no intention of racing, in fact, my first boat was a peice of crap but cheap. My girlfriend and I were just going to cruise but I had no idea how to sail.

I wanted to take some lessons and learn to do it right but I didn't know who to talk to, so I approached a guy on a dock who was putting away his (racing) boat. He took one look at my ride and said, "Sell that thing and get one of these, you will learn more in one year of racing than in 3 years of goofing around in that thing." Well I eventually sold it, bought a racing boat, and after 3 years racing, working my way up from the back of the fleet, slowly learning, I finally beat him. It might have been that I had his daughter as crew that day, and she was telling me exactly what he would do and when. ;^)

The truth of it is, racing improves your skills, because you push yourself and you also get to watch and learn from the better sailors, who BTW, are also racers and builds your confidence for when you are not racing.

And there's the beer.

I've taught my daughter two basic principles:

1. The game is more important than winning.
2. Playing fair is more important than the game.

I know and have sailed with a lot of people who say (very emphatically) that they don't race unless they can win. I of course accept that philosophy exists, but don't ascribe to it.

Maybe it is easier to teach that to a daughter than to a son?

When I was growing up, my father had a boat and I did a fair amount of sailing on it. I thought I was an able sailor when I bought my first boat, but I discovered otherwise when I first tried to race it. Being an entire lap of the course behind when everybody else had finished quickly demonstrated how much I had to learn. So, I set out to improve. My skills increased to where I was not always last. Then I would pick a sailor who regularly beat me and try to beat him. I kept that up until I was regularly in the lead pack. I even won a few races.

While I was improving, It didn't bother me not to win. It was obvious that I couldn't. Once I started, though, I began to race only to win. When I didn't win, I wasn't happy - and that was almost every race. My sailing ability had reached a plateau and it wasn't fun. So, I made a conscious decision to turn things around. I disregarded the finish positions and instead strove to (1) sail as well as I could, and (2) enjoy sailing the race instead of its outcome.

Racing became fun again. I stopped blaming others for my mistakes. I stopped cursing bad luck. I learned to get over setbacks. Surprisingly, I also broke through the plateau and my skills have improved ever since.

I am still very competitive on the water, and I have studied the rules to better play the game, but winning is not my goal - enjoying the sport is. Trophies are nice, but they are the keepsakes to comemerate the event, not the purpose for attending.

Racing has definitely made me a better sailor. More importantly though, racing gets me out on the water. I wouln't sail anywhere near as much without it.

Just my perspective,
Eric

Even if no other sailor is around you and rules don't really come up. Sailing the bouy's (more when we had a B mark) teaches you how to trim the boat to get around the course. Yes practice does a lot too. BUT in my 30 years of sailing, most recreational sailors in my area would just reach out and reach back. If they had a wind shift while out a ways, some had a hard time getting back in. Racing is not for everyone, but doing windward-leewards and learning to deal with windshifts, holes and how land effects the wind, in my opinion DOES make you a better sailor.

Doug

Doug,
You should become a sailing instructor.

lee:

Just a true statement. How many times at the Dike have you seen guys just sail straight out then turn back around and come in? BUT when we sailed down by Curl's and the wind started dieing and shifting they had a REAL hard time getting back in.

Doug

Windyhillf20

If racing is about being the fastest would you sign up for a race that had your boat at a disadvantage. Lets say over time, it had been determined that a crew weight of 160lbs made your type of boat fly and all the races were won with 2 14yr olds on it. Wouldnt you want some sort of equalizer? Say minimum weight so everybody has a chance.

Thats why I say racing is rarely about who is fastest. We have to make adjustments to the rules, equipment ect. to make it "fair". This is where the griping starts.

Doug,
As a windsurfer, I can tell you the Hobies point so much better than windsurf gear. Boats arent as fast but they go uphill much better.

One reason that I like my lake is that is primarily a N/S wind with long 5 mile E/W reaches. I can point but really do like blasting. Same with the windsurfer.

Most classes have a minimum crew weight requirement.

Also, if you don't think racing is all about the best sailor winning then I don't know what to tell you. I think Nigel could be sailing an Opti and still beat me around the cans.

Speed is a factor and so is weight. But i have been at both sides of the coin. On the 14 Turbo, light guys use to kick my butt; but then on the H-16 being on the heavy side really helped when the wind piped up. Is it not always the quickest speed wise (per se). How you read the wind, being on the right side of the course, choosing the right tack, seeing and reading shift on the water. There are a lot of factors that come in to play and time on the water is a big factor. Through racing you can learn from the other boats and better sailors, see how and why they are going faster. It is not whether I won are lost always, I just think in the long run it made me a better sailor.

Doug

It's all, and always, about learning. Take away everything you can from every event. Learn the physics, understand the wind, observe the angles, and know your competition. Above all, focus on your mistakes and shortcomings until you truly understand them and immediately start scheming to overcome them next time.

The really good sailors do this from leg to leg. The mediocre guys do this race to race. The average sailors do this from regatta to regatta. The more you can refine the speed and cycle of this process the faster you learn, the smaller the mistakes, and the better the result.

+1 Awesome Take Jake!!!! /)/)/)~~~~~/)/)~~~/)

I knew it from the onset that this thread was going to be perceived like this, especially by the non-racers and noobs amongst us. A ton of people lurk here.

Threads like this are the exact opposite of what it takes to get more people on the water. We should be more careful, this is pretty bad PR for our sport. Especially when the first post is so sensationalized and obviously packed with meta-messages and does not represent Rick's editorial, which I felt was very respectfully written. I'm not exactly sure what the original poster's motivation was. Obviously it wasn't to paint our sport in a good light.

How many other guys do you figure won't be racing at all because of this thread? Time to put in some more effort to combat the 'friendly fire' I rekon.
J

Unwelcome at Regattas thread


So, while we may choose to sing kumbaya ...
Non racers have issues with racers.... Every now and then... one of them bubbles up and declares the emperor has no clothes and wants no parts of the scene.

Just dismiss or ignore these shortsighted people... They have no reason to feel unwelcome.

So... Carry on... all is well. We are doing a spectacular job of running regattas and growing the sport of sailboat racing.

Wooooo!!!
Thank goodness ,
I was getting worried for a minute there.

p.s. Why would a non-racer be at a regatta(series of races)?