Design

My drafting skills are nil. What kinds of software are available to the amatuer designer and builder?

Any good books for small catamaran design?

Click Start->Run enter "pbrush.exe" click OK and there you go

oh - that's cold.
There are a bunch out there but you're going to get what you pay for.

Rhino Cad is pretty well respected as a low cost powerful platform
Turbo CAD is decent.

Top players are solidworks and AutoCAD but mucho $$$.

You looking for 2D or 3D modeling?

There's a difference! 2D would probably get me off to a decent start.

Hey, while we're talking computer geek stuff, what is the "best" meaning; easiest to use, cheapest, or a free download, etc. US based (does that matter?) Anti-virus software?

My Dell (crap) computers came with McAffee installed, and I HATE it! Well, it's about time to -renew- and people are telling me NO, NOT McAffee!

Well, OK, What then?

The only other one I'm aware of is Norton. Are they so much better?

What's the Buzz? Thanks in Advance. Tim.

My Boys at work say, DELL? You IDIOT, Should have got an APPLE! Well, I looked at them, they cost Twice as much and to do some of the things I need to do online for my work (like bidding my schedules, swapping trips, etc.) I would need to load an app. that would, get this, make the Apple run like Windows!

That's what they told me anyway.

I have an HP, running Windows Vista and use the MS anti-virus.

McAfee is insufferable! Norton isn't much better. No problems with the microsoft product.

I like the Mac Mini, it is very affordable and you can keep using your existing monitor etc.
Although at home I have a cheap clone PC that does its job ( I work in IT and take the parts of the shelf at work).
The problem with all consumer AV products is that they try to get too much features in which you dont need which in turn slows down your new PC.

If it is just AV you want there are plenty of free and good alternatives, I kinda like this one:
AVM.com

You should probably wait till Windows 7 gets released in Q4 though, it really is a lot better then Vista (been using it for nearly a year now).

About McAfee: The consumer version sucks, the Enterprise one is really good though.

If you think McAffee is bad now, wait until you try to uninstall it.

It's almost as though they (McAfee) are running some sort of scam. None of my searches ever came out right. It was as though they were sending me to sites they wanted. It was a very weird experience, I don't trust them at all!!

I have had pretty good luck with Avira. It's a free download that updates regularly. Knock on David Strickland's head, I've not had any virus trouble so far.

Searches? Heh? All they do is put a rating next to the website in the search engine...I'm quite sure they don't (can't) change any of the results. Google would kill them over that.

Only had the problem with McAfee, not before, not since.

Timbo,

If you're using Brighthouse (RoadRunner of Central Florida), they have a co-op agreement with CA to use their suite of tools--FREE.

I've used this for the past 2 years with reasonable success.

CA Internet Security Suite Software Description

You get what you pay for.

Macs will run Windows. All that's required is partitioning the disk, install Windows and add drivers specific to the platform. You can add virtual machine software (VMWare) that will let you run Mac and Windows O/S at concurrently.

Ok, with over 12 years in desktop and server support, I can say that McAfee has been a fine product. Norton was a very good second choice until recently. Norton seems to have dropped the ball several times. McAfee has never given me any problems.

More recently, I have moved to Kaspersky for my clients. I have not bee using it very long but it seems to do a great job. I will be installing the home user version on my system today or tomorrow.

Just my .02

Sam

Free antivirus.. I use one called "common sense", and rely on AVG (Tony posted a link) to catch what "common sense" fails to detect. Then I have "Superantispyware" as third line of defense. Keeping your system updated and configured while relying on "Common sense" is the best way to keep it healthy.


There is a load of free hull design software out there, but you still need to know what you want from the hulls. I dont know of any packages that let you design the whole boat with rig, sails and everything. Freeship is a free package that can do a lot for you if you feel like learning it. http://sourceforge.net/projects/freeship/


My next computer will probably be a Mac.

Blender is a good open source (free) 3D modelling package. There is a bit of a learning curve to get up and running - it is not like switching from Internet Explorer to Firefox. Google sketchup is another free 3D package - I've used it for modelling buildings and other simple shapes - I've not tried anything as curvy as a cat hull but you could explore it as the price is right and there is an active on-line community of users.

Can't help with the boat design books. What are you considering building?

Chris.

Free AVG anti virus is the shiznit.

McAfee Enterprise owns all!

Like Flumpmaster I thought you were asking about CAD software. I like TurboCAD. I am using version 8 and like it just fine. They are up to version 16 now. You can get versions 10 - 14s on ebay for less than $20. Version 16 retails for $129. I can do 3D modeling and rendering on mine though. What do you need?

Later,
Dan

Chris, Dan: I'm looking for a CAD type program; Timbo is looking for anti-virus. Just the normal hijacking.

I'm not really considering anything, just day dreaming. I'd like to combine the best qualities of my Tiki 21 with my Blade, F16. I know, it's a tall order.

I can't remember what I used to make it, but I whipped this out in like 15 minutes one time....

The hullshape reflects my lack of basic design principle.

Not really - buy an F18 - approx halfway between the two lengths, more stable, more room - and more competition than the F-16. Plus a better work-out moving it around the beach. What's not to love?

This is just toooooooo tempting, but I'll pass!

Actually the F16 has more boats on the line than F18s in these neck of the woods.

Getting back to the original thread. try www.avast.com and download their home software, its free, automatically updates and has sped all our machines up significantly.

Freeship is a powerful boat design tool and will do far more than just draw and render. Give it a go. Look up the boat design forum, both the multihull and the software threads and you will gleam alot of information that is pretty factual and not tainted by our loyalty to one or another F boat.

Okay! I can't help myself so here goes. I'm not trying to say anything, I'm just sayin'. . .

Are we too high tech? There was a lot of gear failure in the last Tybee and by all accounts conditions were pretty mild. Would the first generation H16s have had any problem with those conditions?

FWIW a 4ksb wouldn't be very impressed with a 500 mile run.

What a lilly livered piece of crap disclaimer. I thought this thread was about a boat design program.
Pete when was the last time you raced in a distance race on an N-20 ,F-18 or a Hobie 16? So where is this pool of knowledge coming from?

I'm gonna check out that Freeship site. Hopefully my computer challenged self can use it.

That's what I've been using either. No problems so far.

If you really want to have a good time, try installing Norman AV Corporate edition in a network.
If you are not suicidal already, you will be when you are done.

"What a lilly livered piece of crap disclaimer."

Stick it!! You have no sense of humor so kiss off! Before you design something, it might not be bad to have an idea what you want it to do!

Rhinoceros and Maxsurf for all your boat design needs. Both based on similar mathematical/modelling methods and both fairly intuitive with good help.

Rhino, from McNeel & Assoc, can be downloaded free for 25 saves or prints. Maxsurf, from Formation Design Systems, has a no save demo. Both are unlimited use otherwise.

http://www.rhino3d.com/index.htm
http://www.formsys.com/

Rather than printing from Rhino, you can save some of your 25 "saves" by taking a screen shot.

"I'm not trying to say anything, I'm just sayin'. . ."

Well, what exactly does it mean. Sounds like you wanna say something but your scared to stand behind your words.So you want to design a Hobie 16, is that it?
There weren't anymore "failures" in the Tybee this year than any other. There was a sail failure that had nothing to do with the race or the boat.
And your right ,I have NO sense of humor, just ask anybody.
Todd

"I'm not trying to say anything, I'm just sayin'. . ."
It's nonsense from the "Sopranos".

But, screw it! You wanna hear it, here it is. 500 miles is not much of a distance for a sailboat. Dozens, probably hundreds, of monohulls make journeys of many times that distance annually. There is a veritable migration of boats down the eastern seaboard each spring.

I'm not sure what the distance standard over time is but 180 miles in 24 hours rings a bell.

So one interpretation of the Tybee would be that the difficulty is an indicator of the unsuitability of the boats being used.

I'm not saying it isn't difficult or that it doesn't take a lot of skill. I am saying you're using the wrong boat. Hence the design questions.

That's what I wanted.
I don't watch alot of TV anymore. I thought it was regurgitated SA spew. I see it over there alot.My bad.

My take on the right boat for distance racing,the longer it takes the more stuff you break.You can even see this from inside the same fleet.This refers solely to racing.
Cruising a boat to the South with the snowbirds is a whole different cup of tea.With an average speed of 7.5 (the 180 in 24) I'd call that cruising or miserably slow racing. Plus it'd be awfully hard to beach land and launch a monohull. That's where stuff breaks and that's what makes the race more challenging. The point of races like the Worrell, Great Texas, and the Tybee is the fact that the boats are not decked out comfy race boats. Whether or not that makes it "suited" for the race is up to personal interpretation. Since the races were designed around using that type of boat I'd say it is .
What boat do you think would be better? A 16 is going to take considerably longer, which is harder on the boat and crew. If your designing something specifically for that, I'd combine a Nacra-20, a tiger and a Tornado.
Todd

Regarding the Tybee specifically, I think developement would benefit by an "Open Class" with few if any rules regarding design. Because you are launching through surf, the transom hung rudder needs to go away, or fit a couple of robust sweeps so the crew could power out throught the surf (think of the Australian life guard competition where they row a dory through very heavy surf).

something is wrong with my reply screen. can only write short messages.

I have to wonder what a Tornado would have done in this years Tybee with an old style, dead down wind spinnaker? In the cycle of innovation, imagine a modernized square sail, using a carbon spar and HUGE light weight sail.

One thing to be aware of is , what you start with you sail with. There is no time to switch things around. As tight as the racing is, every second you lose you will NOT get back.

How about switching a light weight, symmetrical spin for the more robust asymmetrical spin? Not allowed under class rules but allowable in an open developement class.

I know a guy with a 40' cat who launches his spin from a bag! Piece of cake if it's packed right, impossible if packed wrong. A light weight spin for a 20' cat probably would weigh only a lb.

I think a sym. would be a pig on a 20' cat.

In very light air?

But you get my point. An open class would allow the experiment.

Pete,
Maybe this has already been brought up but if not
wasn't the Worrell once run as an open event?

If so, how did that work out?

I think an open category with only a limit of hull length would be a lot of fun for people who feel the need to play around with boats.

Regards,
Phill

It was tried once , and I believe, only one boat finished.

I don't know much about the history of the event, but I agree with you. Encouraging innovation has to be good for the Tybee and sailing in general.

I KNOW there was an open development class in the Worrell 1000 at LEAST two years, and I'm remembering at least three, maybe four. It was fascinating to go to the start beach in Miami every year and look at all the weird designs. Probably still have pictures of them somewhere in my files. The one I remember best was Carl Roberts' design with VERY narrow hulls and a mast that could be canted from side to side.

It was so interesting to see the different ideas that people came up with. However, the development class also made the race more dangerous, because those far-out designs had not yet been tested in extreme conditions -- and, of course, most of them failed the test of the Worrell 1000. (That does not mean some of the innovations were not worth pursuing and perfecting.)

I have always wished that the development class could have continued. Stock boats are relatively boring, though safer.

What evidence backs up your claim that unlimited boat development is good for the event?

Don't we already have classes with rules that allow unlimited development? Why does the Tybee need to be the same way?

The best thing that happened to the event and insured it's survival is the current format. We already have a very small pool of sailors with the desire and wherewithal to get to the line and you want to make it an arms race?

No, what I want to do is find the ignore button. . . quickly.

For the rest of you, my real interest is cruising my Tiki 21, to include the route of the Tybee, not the event itself. To that end I've added a small asymmetrical spinnaker. I had considered some changes to the bridge deck, but have decided against that, at least for now.

What the Tybee people do is up to them.

Yes, where have the ignore button gone? For all my incredible brainpower and forum experience, I can not find it anymore

Go to the profile of the user and click on "Ignore this user."

spinnakers came apart due to some bad glue and people backed up on their rudders in the surf resulting in busted rudder parts. That can happen to any boat. The later isn't really a "boat failure" but a "technique failure".

While my interest is in the Tiki, I'll bet there would be an interest in a small "blue water" cat. Despite Tiki's proven seaworthiness, Wharram decries it's use off shore and terms it a "coastal trek" design.

Came across this awesome piece of free software:
http://www.delftship.net/delftship/...&view=article&id=31&Itemid=4

"DELFTship™Free is a fully functional 3D hullform modeling program perfectly suited for students, home users or anyone else with an interest in ship design. And as the name already implies it's completly free of charge! DELFTship™ uses subdivision surfaces to represent the 3D geometry instead of conventional nurbs. This technique allows for rapidly modeling the most complex shapes in a very flexible way."

I havent installed it yet but it looks really good.

Thats what I used to make that rendering earlier.

And modesty! don't forget your incredible modesty!

Hey, a geek thread, finally !

Pete, if you want to get some amateur or proffessional designing you only need to look into Rhino3D and nothing else (www.rhino3d.com). It is cheap for students and educators, and you can try for unlimited time the Macintosh version, which is still in developement but ok for learning. For some specific marine design calculations Rhino has a plugin called RhinoMarine, but you don't really need it for start. Rhino is extremely precise, fast, easy to learn and well structured, well put together help file and tutorials, very good customer support. It is the best software for designing stuff and very versatile with lots of plugins and very powerfull modelling tools. The basic 2D drawing is really easy to use and easy to learn, while 3d modelling is a brease compared to stuff like Blender, Autocad, 3DSMAX, Maya, and many others. Rhino's layout is intuitive , uncluttered, has command text entry and does not overwhelm the user with a "professional" looking interface that is normally hard to use because it is made by nerds for other nerds, Rhino is designed by coders for students, artists, engineers and normal ppl, not just for computer nerds like other software.
If you need a demonstration just drop by whenever you want and I will provide cold beer and Rhino lessons. And you can also do stuff like this :
http://www.diversediverse.com/rolf/florin/Prosjekt-hard-milk/hard_milk.html

Fortunatelly for me I come from a geek world, that's usefull if you have to work with pc's a lot. Regarding AV's one of the best piece of software for home use is AVAST (www.avast.com free license for home use). AVAST uses less resources , that means it won't slow your pc down as others will, it is updated periodically and very reliable. Another extremely good AV is Kaspersky, but it is too much for home use, I have a friend working for Kaspersky and they recommend AVAST for home use...

Just my 2c
Regards,

Some general questions:

Let's assume I'm trying to get some weight off my Tiki 21 and improve performance at the same time.

What problems are generated by lashing two canoe type hulls together at the gun'l? The idea being to keep trailering width down to the legal max.