A little lesson for us...

The local beach down here has had about 25 spaces to park cats for the past 20 years or so, and it has been recently shut down. All of the boats have had to move due to one incident. A few weeks ago an extreme high tide and a large south swell came up and washed a boat into the rocks. There was moderate hull damage. It's a known fact that during conditions like that it's best to set an anchor down the beach or better yet move the boat off of the sand and into the iceplant. Easy. And the warning is stated in the paperwork when you sign up for a spot. Several other boats set anchors and were fine.
Apparently, and this is info from (a source) I haven't been in contact the boat's owner to find out his side of the story, but the owner went straight to the city offices all pi**** off threatening to sue and whatnot. The city, like chef Ramsey on Hell's Kitchen said, "Shut it down!" And that's what they did. Gone forever.

The moral of the story: If you go around threatening to sue people, you might just bum out a really cool thing.

So he wanted to sue the city for his irresponsibility?

All these sue happy people in this country is crazy! There is always someone that can be blamed and sued for others stupidity.

Why doesn't he sue King Neptune?

tragic.

we are having to get permits for limited overnight parking, and getting new rules signed into law on july 2

But i should add the town has been very accommodating, and working with us.

I would get back in there and not let one person ruin it for all.

Not good as I have use Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara as an example to our locals that beachcats are good for the beach.

Oh well, I'll take this to the 'what have you done for cat sailing thread.

Beach Access is not a right... it's a privilege... and you probably have to pay for that privilege.

Our state park overlooked that requirement for Insurance liability coverage for them for the 36th annual regatta. This year they did not overlook that detail.. 800 bucks later they were covered but the cost of the game just went up for the sailors.

Luckily for me the other local cat friendly beach right in front of my shop which holds about 200 boats is safe for the moment. I've been waiting for the scenario above to play out here on Harbor Beach every time some yahoo makes a bad decision and gets their boat crushed in the surf. I hope it never happens...

Selfishly speaking, I gained a few more boats on Harbor Beach today. The cost of losing a very cool semi-secret launch spot just isn't worth it though.

J

Whats even more sad is that we wouldn't even be having this discussion were it not for our lawyer-happy society that has bred a generation of wasteful biomass that thinks that everything that happens is somebody else's fault.

Absolutely get in there and bring the rest of the fleet while the iron is hot.Sorry snieder I disagree with the privilage thing.They tried to dump the cats in Delray because of one guy with an ego,there was a camp-out system in place for 20 spaces ,a few guys went in to fight to save thier right to sail, not only did they not shut it down they raised it to 60 spaces.It could have gone the other way because the main complaint was homeowners did not want to see the masts across the road.We have had loads of scenarios where boats were not tied down or not tied down correctly during high tides ,freak swells and storms from Hurricanes.Sounds like this beach is in a commercial zone also where no real private damage can occur being across from the Ice factory.You have a natural right to use the beach it is not a privilage

Sure... Use the beach... I agree.

Store your boat on the beach... I don't think so. They have marinas and Yacht Clubs and public launches for that.

Some places allow storage on public property for local reasons ... Obviously it's a privilege because they tossed the cats off willy nilly, at the first provocation.
The natural right argument did not hold much water when it came to boat storage.

In this case the beach is now off limits to all vessels. There were tons of Kayakers, dingy sailors, and cat sailors that just lost access to the water. The next legit launch area is 1.5 miles North to the Harbor where my shop is and the next one south is Moss Landing about 15 miles. It's a short step for some bureaucrat to go from, you can't store your boat here, to no boats of any kind anywhere on the beach, which is what happened.

I just hate to see any access to the water lost. Here in CA there's definitely a shortage.

J

there is/was a carpark next to the thames in london that had signs all over it warning that during a spring tide and/or strong hurricane winds the whole place would flood

every time it did there were cars parked on it by people who said they didn't realise and complained

don't think they got very far...

sounds like your public service is a little broken

but i think we can all be proud of our broken public services in some respect

Personally I would consider contacting the other water users like the Kayakers and organise a very well thought out "drive" (don't want to write campaign) to get the beach access reinstated. It may just succeed after the local government feels satisfied that they have set an example. You may have to propose to form an club around that particular spot where you guys form a board and descipline your own members. Of course, not a single non-member will be allowed to park and launch there, that will be a key feature of any proposal to get it reinstated. This is what we have done overhere when it comes to kite surfing etc after a few incidents.

Wouter

I think you all should tar and feather the pinhead who didn't tie up his boat.

Even when it's important.... it can be hard to get the people to get involved..

I have been working for months (and also last year when it came up) with the local city attorney and parks dept. to get the newly proposed ordnances relaxed (from 2 over-nights a month to 2 nights a week). I have kept about 15 local cat sailors informed of the status (and for input).

when it went to city hall last week, and we had our ONLY chance to speak up... only a handful showed up ... and only 2 (myself included) actually spoke at the meeting... even though this is to preserve our ability to overnight park / camp on the islands.. it still didn't motivate the masses it would dramatically effect.

I think it is completely a privilege, and i expect as soon as someone gets hurt/sued it will end.

I think you are being a litle to kind to this person.... more like superglue and glass shard him (or her)

There is no public access in southwest Florida. To sail, I have to drive 2 hours to Gulfport.

Actually, Pete, there are plenty of places to launch here in Naples. The problem, of course, is that you aren't allowed to park your trailer anywhere.

I've seen plenty of cats up and down the beach with mast-up storage. I suspect most are rentals or private ones in front of the beach houses.

Guess I need to figure out a "roof rack" on my SmartCar that can handle an N20

Or a short-range, collapsible trailer that could be put up there.

That's not a Smartcar, it's the Barbie and Ken Dream-mobile that's taking up all your man-space. Your kids probably don't want you driving it!

I don't get the smart car (but then again, perhaps that's my problem). You sacrifice all that space and safety to get 4 mpg more than my gasoline VW jetta wagon.

Why didn't you get the diesel?

Smart cars are like motorcycles. Only get one if you'd rather get right-out killed in a collision rather than maimed.

I love the advertisemets about "safety". The smart car does well in crash tests WITH SIMILAR TYPE CARS (like the TaTa perhaps?).

I can only imagine the small spot on the pavement marking what's left of the Smart Car in a collision with an Excursion or something like that...

Collapsable trailer? Interesting concept. Light enough for my fat $% to lift onto a roof rack? even better...

Oh, and my 2000 Civic gets 32 city and 39 highway based on average mileage compiled over the past 3 years (yes, I have no life and spend my time marking mileage and fill-ups). on regular unleaded, too...

Funny you guys mention this,

My friend Kyle just ran his lancer into the back of a 1990's era ford explorer yesterday. Here's whats left of his little econobox.

He says he's buying an SUV to replace it, he's already got one for his wife and baby.

He's got a lot of injuries including airbag deployment burns, bruised sternum, and his knees are screwed up. The explorer apparently drove away from the accident along with the 19 year old girl driving it without a scratch.

Or a fold up, collapsible catamaran

OUCH.. hope your friend heals quickly.

When i first got out of the USN, i purchased a new Hyundai (all i could afford and go to school). I hit a volvo (slid on some black ice after a school bus changed lanes and put out its stop sign/lights) at 1 - 1.5 mph... $4000 damage to my car... scratched her blinker

Did anybody say Volvo?



Volvo is safe, the swedes are good at safety in their cars.

But it would seem to me that they might need to work on their electrical engineering skills. I don't think I've seen one without some sort of electrical issue.

Audi used to be that way, too...

But what's really a thrill is to watch Ford tail lights pop off the back of the truck when they hit a gravel road. Guess they missed that day in assembly school...

Believe me, I wanted to. My wife wanted nothing to do with diesel and I couldn't even get her to listen to me long enough to start to explain that this is a different animal. It was to be her car afterall.

There is something to be said for Detroit iron.

Those 960 series sedans probably weighed more than that cinderblock wall.

This was my tow vehicle for 10 years:


(The Volvo wagon, not the Countach )

Current tow vehicle:


Awesome cars.

Well, at least there used to be. We have cars from around 1908 and 1929, and they don't have any rust.

Mark - maybe in Maryland that is true but in California there is no restriction for the beach. What can be done is that; they (those who own the land adjacent to the beach can) restrict the access to that land, but not the beach.

Case and Point - in Ventura, CA I can launch my cat from the public launch ramp, land it on the "kiddy beach" party all day, leave the beach, go back to the ramp, haul boat out on go. What I can't do, is drive onto the dirt lot adjacent to the beach, set up, roll boat to the water and go, unless of course we have a permit to run a regatta with boogles of liability insurance.

The issue we have here is to many frigging lawyers looking to make a quick buck and many of the governing agencies that restrict the access to the beach afraid of being sued.

Glad to hear the area on the main beach in Santa Cruz is still cat friendly as I am still trying to get the Ventura Harbor District to open an area for beach storing and launching of boats.

Growing up we had an International Harvester Crew Truck, the precursor to the SUV. One day my mother was drivcing us home from school a guy ran through a stop sign in a Datsun 510. Getting out of "The Beast" as we called it we had noted this little piece of tin was wrapped around the front bumper. The Datsun was totaled, and all "The Beast" needed was a few hours work to the front quarter pannel.

Sometimes while driving on the LA Freeways I wish I had that thing to deal with some of the butt drivers we have. One of these days I'm gonna pull the breaker on the override circuit protector switch on my butt driver self preservation protection system and let it fly. Just wish I had one of those IH Trucks to do it with.

lets not totally blame the attorneys... yes they "service" people at their worst of times (death, divorce, jail, etc) but its the public that is convinced / tempted they can win monetary rewards (yes by lawyers) and windfall awards.

People can be greedy.. (and the system can be abused), Lawyers just service this need... and some r payed well... (yes many are sharks and some are sleezy)

i sure as hell wouldn't want be smothered in bureaucracy daily, and to defend liars and cheaters (and murderers) for a living...
just my 2 cents

A friend had a 5/4 Army truck that he had cherried out. While waiting for a light to turn green, a cop made a left turn a little too tight and can openered the whole side of his car. My friend got out and, other than a slight blemish in the paint that covered the 3/8" steel bumper, no damage was found.

He drove off leaving the cop to figure out a good story about the damage.

Absolutely insane. Shoreline belongs to everybody with free access to it. Look at more advanced countries: they have laws for that.
Your shore has been eaten little by little by private interests, and you let them do it.

The one good thing about Hawaii is there are no private beaches except for those controlled by the military. There are some laws about use but the Department of Land And Natural Resources are spread so thin enforcement is unlikely.

We can do the same on the federal shore line. You can't land on a publicly guarded beach between 10 and 5.... so you have to make it to a state or federal park. No storage over night without a permit/permission/ etc etc. Some Jersey and Va beaches allow this... It is a privilege the municipality or private owner gives you (overnight storage above high tide line)

The Chesapeake shore line is mostly privately owned. WRCRA lost their beach because the county zoning xxx suckers came down hard on mast up storage and the property owner said.. ah... not worth the trouble... Sorry see ya!
I think we best join YC's and get with the program.
Here is a snip of a Local YC NOR... (solves that insurance problem)

2. ELIGIBILITY: This regatta is open to one design fleets including: COMET, CLUB 420, OPTIMIST PRAMS and LASERS affiliated with a recognized yacht club or with current membership in their respective fleet and national organization.

Back in the mid 90's when I was living in the Philadelphia area I use to frequent two places, one was Sandy Hook Catamaran Club, and the other was this park in Baltimore County over by Martin Field (where I watched a F-117 crash, but that is another story) where you could store your boat mast up for the summer with a permit. For some reason I can't remember if it was Turkey Point or Rocky Point, and I am leaning towards Rocky Point. My sister lived not to far from there and I could leave my Prindle at her house.

Anyhow, I believe if you were a resident of Baltimore County you could leave your boat there mast up at your risk with a permit as there were about 10 beach cats parked there.

What you folks need to do is get to the county/city/state people, plead your case and get you access back. Face it you have some limp_____ city/county/state/federal useless government employee taking way YOUR RIGHTS because it is not in THIER best interest and creating work for them.

Had a similar thing happen when an older lady ran into the back of my Dodge Ram 2500 4X4. I was at a complete stop waiting at a Red light when she ran right into me at 30+ mph...She never even touched her brakes. Don’t know if she was lighting a cigarette, trying to find a song on the radio, or talking on her cell phone….but I do know she was not paying attention.

My truck didn't move an inch...hers bounced back 15 feet after hitting square on my trailer hitch bar from behind. In fact, the impact was so slight from my perspective, that I didn’t even know what had happened at first. .I heard a noise…but didn’t even see the car back there until a few seconds latter when the steam began to rise out of her car. The impact didn’t even break the filaments in my tail lights.

This was no “smart car”…She was driving a Cadillac Seville...and to look at her vehicle you would have thought she ran head on into a Caterpillar front end loader. The front of the car was totally destroyed all the way to the windshield. Her air bags deployed which is probably the only thing that saved her.

While she was being checked out by the EMT's the police officers were laughing privately and shaking their heads...they commented to me "Please don't take this the wrong way, any accident is serious and we don't mean to make light of it....but look at your truck and look at her car...LOL"

Her insurance company later called me to make arrangements to pay for the damage to my truck (I had them pay for a new trailer hitch assembly just to be on the safe side) and the adjuster told me that they had to total out their insured’s car.

the 2 accidents i had (both under 3mph, slipping on ice) with my hyundia were over $3k in repairs.

both times i found a crazy little spring on the ground (i am positive it SHOOTS the corner panels OFF in any minor accident) and i am almost positive the aluminum corner panels said "Budweiser" on the inside....

Jake, we still have our 1990 Honda Civic, runs like a top, burns no oil, and gets 49 MPG around the Keys. Why did cars stop getting such good efficiency?
Rick

Beats me...but I bet there is more than one opinion about it. The question on my mind is; why aren't they building that today? With the automotive market like it is, a better-than-40mpg car running on unleaded would stand out nicely.

You mean like hybrids? The bottom has fallen out of the hybrid market...

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090504-Hybrid-Sales-in-Heavy-Slump/

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/17/business/fi-hybrid17

there are more :P

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists out there. During the last great (also fake) oil shortage in the mid 80's, I heard a story about a guy who "invented" this diesel powered little Ford car. I think he took a small marine diesel out of a sailboat, turbo-charged it, swapped it into some small Ford car (Pinto maybe?) and it got...get this...60 MPG!

Now for the "Conspiracy". The word was EXXON bought the patent rights from the guy and buried it, deep in some vault, never to be seen again.

The last thing Exxon wants is some Ford getting 60mpg.

You guys in Europe have some very nice, small, diesel powered cars, I've seen them on layovers and was amazed how quiet they are sitting at a stop light. What kind of gas mileage do they get?

Back in the mid 70's oil embargo my Mom bought a VW Diesel Rabbit that got 50 mpg. It couldn't get out of it's own way, took about 10 minutes to get up to 60mph, but it would go 500 miles on a 10 gallon fill up.

I don't know if it would pull a light cat, maybe an A cat! I do know you could put it in 1st gear, engine off, let out the clutch and turn the key. From a dead stop it would lurch foreward and then drive off at 5mph, motor running and in 1st gear.

Don't ask me how I know, and don't tell my Mom. ;^)

i think it was covered here before, but if not..

i heard that hp, fuel efficiency and better lightweight materials has improved dramatically over the past, but peoples demand for more features (gps, power everything, video, 8 speaker systems, etc) and heavier cars negate all the advancements made

60 MPG - I'd own one of these in an instant:

http://www.campagnamotors.com/T-REX/specs.html

For what it's worth, VW and Audi have some exceptional turbo diesels out right now that are amazingly efficient yet with decent performance and towing capacity. The Audi A3 can top 50mpg and the Audi Q7 can top 30mpg--superb for a 7 passenger SUV that can tow a ski boat!

Yeah, well...they're expensive and the batteries they have in them will eventually cost a fortune to maintain. I considered one for a while but it just didn't make sense long term. A 40+mpg gasoline car is apparently pretty low tech and should be low cost now...Rick's is how old? and I bet it's still pretty maintenance free.

I was trying to find the MSRP of the '09 Q7 so I could relate it to the FJ... the only TDi model I could find was the "premium" model, which was like $58k. Thats a lot of bank to be spending. How much money am I spending on the car payment versus the gas card if I buy the Q7 vs. a "normal" midsized SUV?

Here's what I want to build:

http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

Jake,

I'd LOVE to build a three-wheeler commuter car. Its fuel efficient, reliable, SPORTY and FUN!

If the T-rex wasn't damn $48k before import/taxes....

its just too much to spend on a vehicle with little utility other than going from point A to point B.

The only way to see real change is if gas hits something like $7 a gallon in the US, and, more importantly, stays there. This happened long, long ago in Europe, which is why the cars are so different.

Americans really, really, really like their SUVs and this won't change until it actually becomes too painful financially.

Obama came right out and said this right after the election, we were getting there when gas was above $4 a gallon, but we very quickly return to complacency when gas becomes cheap again.

As for the Cadillac vs. truck, I'm not an expert, but I've seen enough Discovery channel to know that modern cars are designed to self-destruct to absorb as much energy as possible in an impact, in an attempt to reduce injury to occupants.

EDIT: Wait a minute, wasn't this thread about beach access???

Mike

if you're going to go green, at least do it fast and in style!

If you get a T-Rex, get this one, 3 wheel Lambo LOL

Aero 3s


Photos
Doug

Rick,

Is that the HF model Civic? Those little cars had the best little engines. My sister's Civic CRX HF model used to get 50 mpg highway, but you really had to get a running start to make it up big hills.

So, I think we all want cars with bigger horsepower and lots of little gadgets (like heated seats, GPS, etc.). All that stuff saps energy, reducing fuel efficiency...

Cool car. What's it rate (to quote Ding)?

Against a Ford Excursion?

The solution, obviously, is to take all the SUVs off the road and crush them.

(I know, but it's raining and I can't get into the garden.)

Umm, don't you work from home?

Doesn't mean that I don't drove anywhere. My commute consists of about a 2 mile drive to and from the grocery store everyday for lunch.



I really really love my SUV because it does everything I require a vehicle to do. When they come out with an 40mpg FJ Cruiser, I'll be the first in line to buy one. (Turbo Diesel FJ's exist in other countries that get 30mpg)

I'll walk before I'll step into a shitbox like a Prius or *gag* insight.

40 mpg is what my 15 year old Toyota starlet got on average. I have towed a stacked Prindle 16 and Prindle 18 behind that car and it would still do 120 km/h quite comfortably (75 mph). I think I still got 30 MPG driving like that.

The bloody thing was roomy enough to transport 2.50 mtr long sailbags and booms inside. I also transported landyachts on the roof rack lots of times.

And it was quick of the line in city traffic. 65 hp/105 NM on a 800 kg car (1750 lbs) will do that.

I loved that car to bits and it was all 1993 low cost and low maintaince technology.

Funk the hybrids ! Bring back the old design starlets ! (the starlet models from 1998 onwards are not as good, to much weird round styling makign the inside space akward for transporting stuff and the standard power steering funked up the steering)

Wouter

Any mid-size Peugeot/Citroen/Renault/VW/Opel/Seat/Fiat turbo diesel will get at least 50 miles/gal.

i.e: A Citroen C2 1.4 diesel (small car) gets 65 miles/gal

On the top of it, these cars are FAST and have great road handling.

Wake up... You are 50 years behind.

In a nutshell, thank your US Government regulations for safety...side impact ratings...air bags...the list goes on and on and continues on. There's a lot of foreign and domestic cars sold in the US from the late 70's to the early 90's that provided excellent fuel economy. A major factor in the mandatory addition of all this regulation?

It's a sailors worst enemy WEIGHT. Look at the weights of the vehicles of then and now.

Guys & girls, the diesel car is much much better than you would think. VW shot themselves in the foot a few years ago when they found the diesel turbo Golf was faster around a very famous German racing ring then their all singing and dancing GTi Golf, so much so they stopped production of the GTi for a few years until they bought out a new 3.2 V6 version called the VR32 which was only just faster than the Diesel version. Bit unfair really as the Diesel is only 2.0l and the petrol 3.2L.

Downside of all the emmissions gadges over here in the EU is the soot particulates from the diesel is stored until the engine is warm enough to burn them off. A friend works for Mercedes and one of his perks is take the large Merc used as a shopping trolley, to the nearest motorway to get it warm enough, when it does start to burn the soot off he laughing said it is like the best 007 smokescreens, it will darken even the brightest day.

i've got a 15 year old 2ltr turbo diesel nissan van that i bought cheap with 125,000kms, now has 200,000kms and the engine is still good

body rusting, exhaust replaced. ball joints replaced etc but not bad for a cheap vehicle and the economy is pretty good

Tiger,




Diesel based MPG is not the same as gasoline based MPG !

You can''t really compare the two directly unless looking at overal cost per mile driven.

It is time people start realizing that.

Wouter

Sorry I guess I am not following. MPG=miles/gal, shouldn't matter if it is gas, diesel, or vegetable oil. I understand if you are talking about the cost of driving a vehicle, where you can factor in MPG, cost of maintenance, insurance, resale value, and life expectancy of the vehicle. Am I not understanding correctly, or is this what you are rfering to?

He's referring to the fact that diesel, at least over here in the states, is more expensive that "petrol".

Go it sounds like getting 50mpg is great, its less great than it sounds.

Back to the 1990 Honda Civic.., just think in 6 more years I can get antique car plates for it.

I had forgotten about the VW Rabbit PU I had when I was living in Vail. Great car and got 60+ MPG. Had to have an oil heater hooked up at night to start it in the cold winter mornings, but not a big deal.
It had plenty of power for me. I could buzz over the passes with the big boys. Pulled our Hobie 18 to regattas, but the windage did slow it down a bit. Cruise control while towing was a large brick.

Diesels are more efficient and reliable. The 24h of Le Mans have been won by diesels since 5 years.

And the latest models have great performance.

Overall, weight is key, like flatlander said. It is really ridiculous to carry 6000lbs of steel when going to the grocery store.
On the safety side, saying you are more protected just leads to bigger and bigger cars as everybody tries to beat the other guy.
Only a 6$/gal gas (like in Europe) will solve the problem.

Look at this table:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

Diesel is less than gas now where I live. It has been higher than gas though.

Same here in NC, diesel is now cheaper than petrol. I have an 05 Jetta TDI 5spd and love it, worst MPG ever is 41 and best is 52.

Actually at this time diesel is less that unleaded.
Current Avg. $2.667 (unleaded)
$2.633 (diesel )

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/index.asp

ahh well around here I'm paying $2.45 for gas, diesel is still $2.60something.

a nice tool for your next road trip, you may save enough for a mocha locha

gasbuddy

Back in the 70's, 80's and 90's diesel used to cost about 25 cents a gallon (or more) LESS than gasoline, so buying a Diesel car (or truck) got you a double savings, better mileage PLUS cheaper fuel.

It seems in the past 9 years or so, Diesel fuel went way up in price, relative to gasoline, over here in the USA. I think it was partly due to added taxes to the diesel fuel along with the laws to produce a "cleaner" diesel fuel, less sulphur, less polution, etc, and even higher demand, as there are lots more big-rig trucks flying up and down the highways now, along with lots more diesel F250's and F350's (Ford pickup trucks for you guys over there).

I did a "Cost-Benefit" analysis a few years ago because I needed a new truck to tow the horses to shows. I spent about a year asking horse trainers how they liked their diesel trucks, was it cheaper than a gas truck, what kind of mileage do you get towing the horses (10mpg was the standard answer) should I get a diesel or gas if I'm only doing one show a month, or less, etc.

Convinced I'd look sharp in a new F250 Diesel I went to the Ford Dealer, and nearly passed out when I saw the sticker prices! Sticker shock does not come close to what I had. Sticker OUTRAGE would be more accurate! You know where they list the "Options" (like a friggn' FM RADIO: $450, FM Radio with 6 disc CD: $650). well the "Option" of a 6.0 liter Diesel was, get this, about $5,000!

$5,000 and you are going to pay 25 to 50 cents MORE per gallon for diesel, and only get 10MPG hauling horses to shows?! YGTBSM.

So to save $5,000 on the truck, and get nearly -as good- gas mileage (but with cheaper gas), I bought the F150 with the 5.7L gas engine. It's been a good truck for what I do with it. The F250 would have been nice but really overkill for what little towing I do, to say nothing of the more expensive diesel fuel it requires.

I seriously thought about producing my own veggie oil fuel by using used fry oil from all the fast food joints around here, but someone has alrady got contracts for that.

Jack took me to my first 12 Hours of Sebring LeMans race last March, the fastest cars out there were the TDI cars, and Audi has won the race, the last 7 years, with their TDI car.

I'm a believer, I just wish I could find one I can afford!

And did I see someone drives their SUV 2 miles to the grocery store for lunch --every day--?? Come on, get a refridgerator and do it once a week, or ride a bike everyday. OR, God Forbid, WALK.

That is the single biggest difference I have noticed between Europe and the USA. So many people over there ride bikes to work, or walk, or take trains. NOBODY over here does, except Lance Armstrong of course...and all our Soccer Mom's drive Suburbans with...1 kid in the back.

Any wonder 60% of us are obese?

I don't like getting 18mpg in my truck and would like to see a full size pick-up that could deliver better mileage. My commute is 50 miles 1 way on some of the most heavily traveled highway in NC. I used to drive it in a 300z and was scared for my life, I am and feel safe in the truck. There is no way I would consider a little car like the smart car or even ride a motorcycle. I WANT TO STAY ALIVE!

You don't think that I get a little bit of a break since I don't drive to work? Its honestly more of a "I have to get the #$%#$ out of this house before I go insane" type of thing more than getting food. Sometimes I mix it up and get thai...

If I walked that 2 miles, I'd get run over. Its a 2 lane, 55mph highway. Yesterday it was 120.4'F in the sun. I think I'll take the SUV.

You know, I agree that you probably made a good decision there. I think pedestrians do have it easier (mostly) on the other side of the atlantic. Now, if you could safely walk or ride a bike to your lunch..

To get back on topic. Here in the land of polar bears and politicians without backbones we have a law where nobody are permitted to develop areas within 100meters of the water. Everybody can also walk/camp in any area not farmed as long as it is 'wild nature' and more than 200meters from houses with people. Being allowed to store cats on a beach.. Sure, if you had done so for some time, but it is different since we have sailing clubs with mast-up storage here. I am really satisfied having laws protecting access to the coastline and nature, so local beurocrats and landowners can not close off areas like that beach this thread started with.

Are you going to do anything about being kicked off the beach?

Hey Timbo,
Patrick Green goes to Wave Regattas with a VW van he converted to burn vegetable oil.
We kid him a lot about stopping for fuel at McDonalds.

I thought a bio fuel (plant oil) hybrid could be a good option (to get off foriegn oil, and reduce fosil fuel consumption)... My friend wants an atomic reactor car... (i am not convinced)

I also think the answer to all our problems (or many) is to create a carbon dioxide engine.. it burns c02, and its only "waste" is pure carbon powder, which we can use to build buildings, cars, and most importantly... .cheap masts for the I20's

Jake, can't you build these in your shop?

Timbo,
You think the diesel scenario is bad look at the batteries in the hybrids. Huge cost increase upfront and a battery life of 7 years. Then you have to shell out another 5-7k for new batteries or scrap the car. The batteries also have to be disposed of or recycled. The green thing is a greed driven cash cow, if it makes anyone feel better about themselves then by all means keep writing checks, just like their leader.
Todd

Todd, electric cars is highly probably the future. With more research, things will improve but it will indeed be different.

Of course people try to make money on the current hot topic, climate change. No surprise there. We "consumers" (something I hate being labeled as) can only vote with our money.

I had a friend back in the 60s that invented a sailboat that could sail straight into the wind. The sails were sort of a windmill affair that turned a propeller. Talk about saving fuel.
Rick

WOW... sounds unreal!

Did the sails turn a propeller?

The windmill powered boat is older than that. Marchaj had a picture of a contraption like that in one of his books. Boat was dog slow on the downwinds and not really fast upwind. An idea that did not work out in real life.
I am not certain of the relevance to my post though. Are you saying that electric cars are a technological dead end?

I suspect that a boat with windmill sails will not go straight upwind. I can't imagine how the windmills would produce enough excess energy to overcome the various frictions involved (air resistance, gearing, water resistance, etc.) Might be able to go upwind, but not straight upwind...

And look up hydrnol. It seems like a good alternative because:

- it handles like current petrochemicals (can use existing fuel distribution infrastructre)
- can be used in conventional internal combustion engines, tubojet/turbofan engines for generators, or hydrogen cells
- hydrogen can be sourced from renewable and/or green energy systems (solar, nuke, wind)
- product is recycled after use (depleted hydrogen is added back to mix)

It does go straight to windward. Consider that you can angle / feather the blades on the windmill so they are at the same type of angles of attack that we typically sail to weather at.

how about faster than the wind downwind?

Liar, Liar, Pants on FIre!!!! LOL

VERY COOL~

I LOVE THE END Beep Beep

Err, they made it go faster than the wind downwind.. Interesting! The boats I read about did not pull that one off, but there is less drag from the wheels compared to a hull or two.

So Jake, what is the explanation? Or do we need to call inn Wouter?

Heck if I know. I haven't had much time to ponder the treadmill trick, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out the physics of it. It would seem to be a perpetual motion machine if it can climb a hill without any external source of energy...I suspect that there was some airflow behind the cart on the treadmill helping to push it forward...but I don't doubt that it can move faster than the wind downwind.

You absorb energy from the wind by redirecting (slowing down) the molecules of wind as they go by. You can absorb a fixed amount of energy this way. If you're resistance to motion is less than the energy that can be extracted from the wind, then the craft can move faster than the wind that's powering it. Sailing craft have demonstrated (easily) the ability to sail faster than the wind at certain angles...the blades of the prop help maintain those beneficial angles while the vehicle can be moving in any direction.

hrmf. now I'm baffled. I don't get it or understand how these guys are demonstrating this. I (think) I understand something moving faster than the wind dead downwind in that the prop would be powered from the wheels and once moving in the opposite direction from the wind, will push wind against the wind providing the propulsion needed...but in a static air situation, I just can't figure out how the cart is constantly pushing forward faster than the treadmill is powering it.

The wheels start moving.
The wheels start moving the blades in the rear.
There is no air, but the propeller creates forward momentum.

Obviously they cannot accomplish without moving the wheels, the wheels provide the movement to the props, then the props provide forward momentum to the wheels.

Its a cycle.

There must be some friction in the system and therefore some "loss" of energy. Why dont it stop but rather speeds up? Very interesting situation. I'll pop off an e-mail to Wouter

I'm no Jake type engineer,I put nails in boards, but it seems that if the gearing between the wheels and the prop made the prop spin faster to provide more thrust than the speed the wheels were experiencing at that moment it would gain speed.I'm sure there's a stop point for that, but at lower speeds I would think it would work.

Tawd

Yes, sure...but you can't create more energy than there was to begin with. The treadmill is providing the power (a fixed amount of power) to the prop through the wheels. Somehow, the cart outruns the treadmill and maintains that constant state ability (shown by the strings pulling forward). Once the strings pull forward, the cart shouldn't be drawing any more energy from the treadmill because it is now pushing against the belt underneath. The treadmill is effectively not putting any more power in the cart since the cart is now pulling forward.

If you consider this example on an open road instead of the treadmill, this video seems to show that once you got that little cart up to a certain speed that it would accelerate and maintain some set speed on it's own without any energy input...which should be impossible.

Maybe, if there is a little angle between the tied/fixed direction of the cart and the treadmill, the wheels could turn faster than the treadmill is moving under it and some additional energy could be derived from that - but it looks pretty straight.

It is obvious to me.... its voodoo

OK, I understand it now....no time to explain in detail but it has to do with apparent wind.

I am no expert but what does the treadmill experiment really prove?
If it was actually going down a real hill, the wheels would build up some resistance when transferring power to the propeller right?
But the engine of the treadmill is so powerful that it just overrides that resistance and the difference is probably what makes it go forward.
Does that make any sense?

Now if it could drive of the treadmill and just keep on going I would be impressed.

apparent wind, duh!
Oh did I mention the NACRA 20 sucks?

I can't see the video or pictures that Jake posted but Tawd is on the right track here.

A wind mill car (or trimaran as shown in the movie Water World) can indeed "sail" straight into the wind. Just make sure that the gearing between the driven shaft of the wind turbine and the drive shaft to the wheels or screw is large enough.

The minimal gearing required is the same as the ratio between the orthogonal forces acting on the windturbine blades. The ratio between the force that makes the turbine turn (perpendicular to the airflow) and the one that tried to bend the turbine blades backwards (parallel to the airflow).

Any gearing higher then that (and sufficiently large to also overcome other parasitic drag factors) will see the craft move directly into the wind.

A Darrieux windturbine design would be very attractive solution for such a craft. Look it up on wikipedia. This design doesn't require the turbine to be aligned to the wind in any way. (water world tri had on of those and that was actually a brilliant idea)

Wouter

Wouter,

here is a link to the youtube video that started the current discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHsXcHoJu-A&feature=player_embedded

If you can see the video, it looks like the car builds its own energy and accelerates.

The point of the demonstration was to show that a vehicle can "sail" faster than the wind dead down wind (DDW)...and this one does. What stumped me was that the vehicle outruns the treadmill and that there was no visible sign of energy being added to the car to keep the propeller turning. Some of you undoubtedly saw the right things right away.

The propeller is pushing the vehicle forward against air that is not otherwise moving. The treadmill is pushing rearward on the cart, but the propeller is pushing harder against the static air and this imbalance is what allows the cart to move forward but still draw energy from the treadmill.

In a real world scenario with the cart moving on an open road in still air it would have an apparent wind and would have much less traction with the air ... so it would never be able to self sustain speed. However, put some wind at the back of it...and enough to get it to a certain speed, it's capable of pushing itself off the air and move faster downwind than the wind is blowing. This is exactly what the treadmill is demonstrating...that it can move faster than the still air.

Oh! I see! The alchemy demonstrated will restore lost beach access. Wonderful! Where do I get one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy